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maniek515

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I think that any large fanbase with a passionate community will see this kind of thing happen. If you arm yourself with constructive criticism and information to create an educated opinion you'll find that likeminded people will engage in an enriching discussion with you while people who aren't so good at either will show themselves up with flawed replies.

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6 minutes ago, Crispy_Oglop said:

I think that any large fanbase with a passionate community will see this kind of thing happen. If you arm yourself with constructive criticism and information to create an educated opinion you'll find that likeminded people will engage in an enriching discussion with you while people who aren't so good at either will show themselves up with flawed replies.


This :)
For example : one of my friends doesn't like FFXV for the reasons that he mentioned to me, some constructive ones in which i agree! now another thing is to say barbarities without no sense! Every game can be discussed as long as the opinion is well elaborated

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2. You can disable the milestone feature of the marker and have it point to the destination instead. It's in the settings. In case anyone else is getting frustrated by this. 

I do miss having a mini map. 

 

3. I think lots of RPGs borrow a lot of mechanics from each other anymore. Skyrim has a skill you purchase to slow down time when aiming arrows. Shadow of the Colossus has weak points to take down an enemy. Some shooters are big on the headshots. Most games have some sort of crafting anymore. I guess it's just a matter of opinion for what things you enjoy, and how much you enjoy seeing it repeated across games. I personally liked it. Made the combat feel familiar in a good way instead of a bad way. 

I am enjoying the assortment of weapons, too. I have my favorites, but I use most of them in different situations. Except the Rattler, I don't like that thing. Spear does have other attacks but they are all R1 and depend on where you are standing (or for Critical Strike, the status of the machine). I prefer stealthing, though. This game doesn't really seem built for you to always go charging into combat openly, anyway, so it's combat is geared more towards my style. 

 

The big thing to me is the story though! I like my stories new and fresh and it's just really cool wandering around in a society where our future hologram-loving society is called "The Ancient Ones" as I piece together what happened. So far my favorite part was meeting the All Mother, I was *not* expecting that. I love the protagonist, too, she speaks her mind but with empathy when appropriate and I am just really loving her development. A good story is the most important thing to me in a game and so far I am hooked in this story. 

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23 minutes ago, Crispy_Oglop said:

I think that any large fanbase with a passionate community will see this kind of thing happen. If you arm yourself with constructive criticism and information to create an educated opinion you'll find that likeminded people will engage in an enriching discussion with you while people who aren't so good at either will show themselves up with flawed replies.

 

9 minutes ago, Rose Amicitia said:


This :)
For example : one of my friends doesn't like FFXV for the reasons that he mentioned to me, some constructive ones in which i agree! now another thing is to say barbarities without no sense! Every game can be discussed as long as the opinion is well elaborated

 

Agreed, but well... Just look at this very thread to see how many people start saying it's wrong or stupid to not think Horizon Zero Dawn is GOTY. Personally I thought the starting post was pretty levelheaded and warranted better responses from people why they enjoyed or didn't mind the named flaws.

 

Personally, I can easily forgive a game for a few flaws if the whole package is entertaining. This has the effect of me often playing devil's advocate; when people call a game perfect I'll point out the flaws and when others call the same game shit I'll talk about in what ways the game really shines. 

 

I've actually done both at the same time for Uncharted 4 in two threads on here. I think the Uncharted series (as well as The Last Of Us) are games with bland combat and stories that aren't original at all, but the games are saved by excellent presentation and cinematography (and in the case of U4 and The Lost Legacy; more time spent exploring, platforming and puzzling than spent fighting). So I found myself arguing against people who called Naughty Dog best devs ever in one thread, and against people who call ND's games utter shit in a different thread, all the while getting called obviously wrong when disagreeing with either.

 

Some people...

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For me personally, the big draw was the story. It really drew me in, and it's been a long time since a game has had me hooked going "wait, no, I need to know more!!" the way HZD did.  So that alone makes it an awesome game for me, and probably my game of the year (although, I'm a sucker for platformers, so A Hat in Time might have just overtook it....).  I also thought it was visually stunning and on the whole very fun to play.

 

 

 

As for the criticisms you have - I personally really enjoyed the combat for a large portion of the game.  I started the game on Normal, and turned the difficulty up as I got better at dealing with enemies.  But then every time you encounter a new enemy, it was like "ahhh crap what is this and how do I deal with it!?!?", and as you encounter them more and learn how to deal with them, it becomes easier over time and makes it feel like you, the player, is levelling up, rather than Aloy. So to me, that felt kind of rewarding in its own way.  I also thought the game kind of paced new enemies out in a good way, to keep it fresh?  So when you started to get comfortable with the current set of enemies, suddenly a Rockbreaker was flying at your face and you're back to feeling useless again.

 

I do get where you're coming from on the repetitive side though - once you've dealt with the same enemy a number of times, it becomes more of an inconvenience to fight them, rather than a challenge, so I can see how you might dislike that.  Although I'd argue that every game's combat system gets repetitive after a while, and the enjoyment in combat in HZD lasted longer than most games.  But if we're being honest, personally I also avoided unnecessary encounters once I got more comfortable with certain enemy types. And I never equipped the Shield Weaver armour as it felt criminally easy with it on which took away a lot from the game.

 

 

 

Regarding navigation and markers: as others have said, you can change the markers to point to the destination in the options, but I do agree that when they pointed to a road it was rather annoying at times and you ended up going backwards instead of forwards. But that was just a minor inconvenience in my opinion, rather than something that made the game bad?  The lack of minimap though, I 100% agree, I don't know why the game didn't have it.

 

 

As for climbing, I agree with you that it was kind of....meh. But I play a lot of games like Tomb Raider and Uncharted so I didn't really notice it as being a negative, and more like being the norm? So it didn't really bother me much, and certainly didn't bring the game down in terms of how I'd rate it.

 

 

 

So I guess, overall I agree with your points, but I didn't find any of them bad enough to take away from an overall great experience? Especially points 2 and 3, I feel like they're so minor they shouldn't really take away from a game?  Combat was a big thing, though, so I can understand why that might take away from the game if you disliked it so much, even if I personally enjoyed it for like 90% of the time.

 

I mean, it's by no means an absolutely perfect game, but what game doesn't have flaws really? I guess it all comes down to which flaws are okay to have in your own personal opinion, and which ones ruin a game for you. For me, HZDs flaws weren't enough to take away from an overall great experience. But if they ruined it for you, then that's your opinion as a gamer (which you're perfectly entitled to) and I disagree with all the people telling you that you're wrong just because they liked the game, because that's just...not how opinions work.

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13 hours ago, ImplyingYouCare said:

I've never played Horizon, but I like how OP wrote a decent post about the things they disliked in the game and why, but everyone just says "No, it's good. You're wrong". Even the person with their youtube review channel in their signature isn't trying to refute any of those points.

 

Like guys if you're going to post in a thread like this then it's probably best to at least try to detail why you don't think OP's points are problems with the game, or why you enjoy the game despite it's faults. 

THIS.

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I'm glad it didn't have a minimap. 

 

I'm not disappointed with this game, because I didn't have high expectations, but I don't think it's the best game of the year. It doesn't really offer anything new than, say, a Dragon Age, a Witcher 3, a Monster Hunter or anything by Ubisoft. A somewhat original setting, a somewhat competent story, but overell a generic game. Better than anything Ubi or EA puts out, so that's a bonus.

 

 

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[This isn't pointing to anyone in particular in this thread, just threads in general really]

 

Videogames are some of the most personal experiences you can have in entertainment I think. So if you personally experience something that impacts you positively and you really enjoy it, it can become hard to read another person's review/interpretation/opinion that might differ from yours.

 

The idea that someone could have such a different experience with the same game that gave you such a positive one can often lead to a 'no you're wrong' standpoint. It can happen to anyone to different degrees and it's why you see it so frequent in larger games, mainly because they are experienced by so many more people.

 

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that if someone disagrees with your opinion on a gaming experience it's okay, it doesn't devalue your experience, you experience is your own nothing will take it away from you. That being said, if someone says 'This game is amazing' or 'this game is rubbish' and doesn't give any specifics then it can often take away the fun that we can have in these threads. 'This game is amazing because of X,Y,Z' or 'this game is rubbish because of x,y,z' will provoke good discussion :)

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I just started playing it. I'm only a few hours in, but I like what I've seen. The graphics are beautiful, the story is engaging, and I haven't experienced any problems with the combat. I think I'm only now getting to the part of the game where the world is open to me, but I can't think of anything negative to say. The no minimap thing did strike me as odd, but I kinda feel the same way about those as subtitles: convenient but distracting. Sometimes it's nice to not have the screen cluttered, so you're not spending the whole game staring at a single corner. The option to toggle on/off various parts of the UI would've been preferable, though.

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10 minutes ago, Cassylvania said:

The option to toggle on/off various parts of the UI would've been preferable, though.

 

Most of it can be toggled by pausing and going into options :)

 

There's some things that can't be changed, but on the whole most of the bits people don't like can be turned off :)

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I had a similar feeling. The game didn't bring anything new to the table. It used the ubisoft formula and put it in a great looking setting. Even though the setting

was a lot like in Enslaved.

 

From a technical perspective this game is outstanding but I got bored quickly. Everybody who played things like Red Dead Redemption,

Assassins Creed, Far Cry and pretty much every open world game will not experience anything groundbreaking. 

 

Plus, I never got why HZD has no lock on feature. That made the fighting kinda odd. And from a story perspective, I have to say that I mostly liked

the part where Aloy was a little kid and was trained to survive. Later on I didn't care about pretty much anything. 

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16 hours ago, maniek515 said:

I was very hyped for Horizon so I finally grabbed it during black friday sale and, oh boy, how big of a let down it was.

 

I don't mean it's crap, absolutely, I just want to start an arguement as I honestly can't understand where all that praise around it comes from. I'll try to point out few things that bothered me the most about HZD and why it turned out to be below my expectations. 

 

1)Combat. I originally started game on normal difficulty and I felt fighting was awesome. It was fairly balanced and, in fact I got my ass kicked few times despite difficulty level when I started to act too bald. But it became repetitive pretty quickly and was more and more boring. Being close to end of the game I was abusing fast travel just to avoid unnecessary encounters. However jewel in that crown was Shield weaver armor which in my opinion completely broke any balance. Even in NG+ on ultra hard combat wasn't challenging at all, I can't remember dying even once. Only difference was amount of time it consumed. 

 

2)Navigation and markers. First of all, no minimap in an open world game. What the fuck Guerrilla? Messed up markers pointing to the road leading to my destination instead of destination itself. Couple of times I was running around like moron just to get to the road while objective was in opposite direction. 

 

3)Climbing. That one was probably most annoying. Looking for handholds in some areas was pain in the ass. Some of them were barely visible in daylight but when weather changed (showing or sandstorm) I literally couldn't see shit. Also limited climbing possibilities stood against free exploration which should be the biggest funfactor in games like that. 

 

After first few hours into the game I was like '80% of mechanics is copypasted from Shadow of mordor but done worse'.

 

Story however was strong part of Horizon. Very strong actually. There were two amazing plot twists that blew my mind and, in general, it felt very fresh among recent games. 

 

That would be it. Like I mentioned I don't intend to start a shitstorm, just want to share my opinion. 

 

6.5/10 from me, cheers! 

 

I'd love to make a poignant point against some of these, as some people around here insist we must as opposed to simply disagreeing and moving on, which is being condemned for some reason... but I think the problem here is that these all relatively petty complaints in the grand scheme of things.  Moreso an issue with your inability to adjust from other games, than things that are objectively bad about HZD.

 

1. The game does get incredibly easy once you get the best armor in the game.  I personally thought it was refreshing once I was almost done with the game, to be able to just dominate things.  If that bothers you, maybe you shouldn't wear it?  The combat itself may be a little lacking once the initial sheen wears off, but has enough depth to last a normal playthrough... perhaps longer if you play harder difficulties without the intentionally OP Shieldweaver armor.  I wouldn't exactly say similar open world action games (Batman, AC, Shadow of Mordor, etc) fare much better, that's just kinda par for the course without heavier RPG elements expanding the game (and IMO dragging it down).

 

2. There was a time where even complicated RPG's didn't have mini maps or quest markers.  The navigation system was imperfect if you think their goal was to hold your hand.  If you didn't feel your hand was held enough... then I guess that wasn't their goal.

 

3. Climbing.  I don't know if it was you, but someone drew comparisons to Uncharted 4/Lost Legacy.  That series is embarrassingly easy to climb around in, literally someone with half a brain  holding the controller upside down would feel like a pro at climbing.  If that's the bar... we might as well turn the climbing/platforming in games like these into cutscenes, because that's seemingly the level of effort people want to put into it.  (No disrespect to Uncharted, part of the appeal of the games are the level of polish in its mechanics, but there's such thing as over-polishing.)

 

All and all, point 1 might be valid but a common issue in longer-running open world action games.  The others just indicate to me that you've been coddled a bit by the simplicity in other games.  I mean HZD gets almost a failing grade because you can't figure out the quest navigation and climbing?  And because you willingly wear the best armor in the game, locked behind an extensive scavenger hunt that can't be completed until the games story is virtually over, and get put off by the lack of challenge?  Okay... ?

 


EDIT: IMO, the games world and graphics alone should give it a passing grade.  I can't STAND open world games these days, The Witcher can go F itself... but even I couldn't resist exploring (and taking pictures) of every nook and cranny of HZD.  That's high praise for the game.  Add in a very functional story and adequate combat mechanics (common repetition issues aside) and you have a fine game.  Not necessarily a world-beater... but a 6.5?  Please.

Edited by Dreakon13
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It sucks that you didn't end up enjoying it but then again we all have different tastes.(I.e I didn't really like the last of us.. Or bayonetta or until dawn all of which were very critically acclaimed) . I mean some people might actually enjoy the points that you mentioned were flawed, like the no minimap. Makes it minimalistic IMO. At the end of the day, just play what you like and don't give a rat's behind if you're( you as if you in general not to OP) afraid of the fan base grabbing their pitchforks.

 

 

My personal opinion about the game? It's my goty for 2017 that's for sure.

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10 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

 

I'd love to make a poignant point against some of these... but I think the problem here is that these all relatively petty complaints in the grand scheme of things.  Moreso an issue with your inability to adjust from other games, than things that are objectively bad about HZD.

 

1. The game does get incredibly easy once you get the best armor in the game.  I personally thought it was refreshing once I was almost done with the game, to be able to just dominate things.  If that bothers you, maybe you shouldn't wear it?  The combat itself may be a little lacking once the initial sheen wears off, but has enough depth to last a normal playthrough... perhaps longer if you play harder difficulties without the intentionally OP Shieldweaver armor.  I wouldn't exactly say similar open world action games (Batman, AC, Shadow of Mordor, etc) do it much better.

 

2. There was a time where even complicated RPG's didn't have mini maps or quest markers.  The navigation system was imperfect if you think their goal was to hold your hand.  If you didn't feel your hand was held enough... then I guess that wasn't their goal.

 

3. Climbing.  I don't know if it was you, but someone drew comparisons to Uncharted 4/Lost Legacy.  That series is embarrassingly easy to climb around in, literally someone with half a brain  holding the controller upside down would feel like a pro at climbing.  If that's the bar... we might as well turn the climbing/platforming in games like these into cutscenes, because that's seemingly the level of effort people want to put into it.  (No disrespect to Uncharted, part of the appeal of the games are the level of polish in its mechanics, but there's such thing as over-polishing.)

 

All and all, point 1 might be valid but a common issue in longer-running open world action games.  The others just indicate to me that you've been coddled a bit by the simplicity in other games.  I mean HZD gets almost a failing grade because you can't figure out the quest navigation and climbing?  And because you willingly wear the best armor in the game and get put off by the lack of challenge?  Okay... ?

 


EDIT: IMO, the games world and graphics alone should give it a passing grade.  I can't STAND open world games these days, The Witcher can go F itself... but even I couldn't resist exploring (and taking pictures) of every nook and cranny of HZD.  That's high praise for the game.  Add in a very functional story and combat (mild repetition aside) and you have a fine game.  6.5?  Please.

 

1. Of course I could refuse to wear best armor in game but what's the point. This particualr quest starts right at the beginning of the game and drags almost through whole storyline so it is pretty obvious I wanted to put my hands on it. Anyway at that point of my playthrough I was trying to get over with the game asap. 

 

2. There was a time when games had no 3d graphics. It's 2017 for god's sake. Minimap is utility to make life easier, nothing more. I brought up navigation only because of no minimap, if it was there markers wouldn't be a problem at all. 

 

3. Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant here. Or I didn't say it clearly enough. Climbing itself wasn't the issue. It was more about spots you can climb. For example you want to climb huge cliff and you need to run around damn thing just to find that one rock which you can hold on to so it's not a matter of figuring it out. 

 

As I was writing this, I thought of 1 more annoying thing which was 1 active item at a time and scrolling a dozen of them everytime you need something else. 

 

I guess 6,5 might be a lil bit too harsh but I expected something really outstanding, especially with all these 10's/10 tossed all around the web. 

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I liked that you exposed your view with respect to the ones who enjoyed the game. This should be the rule.
In my opinion, this game is brilliant. The climbing (which I don't mind at all) is scarce and the fighting is great on higher difficulties, since on lower ones you don't need to improvise and develop certain fighting styles. It is hard to be a master at this game on higher difficulties, but it also gives more variety (avoiding repetition).

We all have games that we don't like, despite overall appreciation, so I get it. But I don't believe HZD is average at all, my friend (it's my GOTY for sure)

 

bmg_ps.png

Edited by bmg_ps
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1 hour ago, maniek515 said:

 

1. Of course I could refuse to wear best armor in game but what's the point. This particualr quest starts right at the beginning of the game and drags almost through whole storyline so it is pretty obvious I wanted to put my hands on it. Anyway at that point of my playthrough I was trying to get over with the game asap. 

 

2. There was a time when games had no 3d graphics. It's 2017 for god's sake. Minimap is utility to make life easier, nothing more. I brought up navigation only because of no minimap, if it was there markers wouldn't be a problem at all. 

 

3. Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant here. Or I didn't say it clearly enough. Climbing itself wasn't the issue. It was more about spots you can climb. For example you want to climb huge cliff and you need to run around damn thing just to find that one rock which you can hold on to so it's not a matter of figuring it out. 

 

As I was writing this, I thought of 1 more annoying thing which was 1 active item at a time and scrolling a dozen of them everytime you need something else. 

 

I guess 6,5 might be a lil bit too harsh but I expected something really outstanding, especially with all these 10's/10 tossed all around the web. 

 

1. It dragged on through the whole story, you finally got your hands on it, and then it made you an unstoppable badass.  You got to taste it, then it was up to you if you wanted to keep wearing the armor.  I don't see the problem.  That's a you thing, not a game thing.

 

2. I don't see the link between it being 2017 and every game requiring fully featured mini maps with quest markers and the works.  Morrowind didn't keep it barebones because they didn't have the technology, it was to encourage more unfettered exploration.  Maybe a mini map would've made things less confusing for you.  Maybe other people would have considered it unnecessary screen clutter.  Probably should've made such a thing available and optional, I suppose.

 

3. So... you'd rather just be able to scale cliffs wherever you darn well please?  Instead of actually having to find a side/spot to start on?  I'm not going to sit here and proclaim HZD needs to be the pinnacle of realism, but this just seems salty to me.  Not even Uncharted allows you to do that, and that game is climbing with the training wheels on.

 

I agree a 6.5 seemed too harsh.  You jumped on the hype train and let a lack of a mini map and optional end-game armor ruin your experience.  You won't be the first or last person to overreact and dislike a great game for dubious reasons.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Crispy_Oglop said:

 

Did you walk away from that comment like this?

 

giphy.gif

 

Is this a part of the "enriching discussion" you mentioned before?

Edited by Dreakon13
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3 hours ago, Cassylvania said:

I just started playing it. I'm only a few hours in, but I like what I've seen. The graphics are beautiful, the story is engaging, and I haven't experienced any problems with the combat. I think I'm only now getting to the part of the game where the world is open to me, but I can't think of anything negative to say. The no minimap thing did strike me as odd, but I kinda feel the same way about those as subtitles: convenient but distracting. Sometimes it's nice to not have the screen cluttered, so you're not spending the whole game staring at a single corner. The option to toggle on/off various parts of the UI would've been preferable, though.

 

I think with the combat side of things, once you've worked out how to best many of the monsters, it becomes more of a satisfying 'rinse and repeat' method. But in the early stages it stays quite fresh. I found that once I'd upgraded my staff and got the whistle method in place I stealth killed most lesser enemies, only really coming out of the grass to take on the bigger stuff.

2 hours ago, PooPooBlast said:

At the end of the day, just play what you like and don't give a rat's behind if you're( you as if you in general not to OP) afraid of the fan base grabbing their pitchforks.

My personal opinion about the game? It's my goty for 2017 that's for sure.

 

Good wisdom in these words for sure, so many games out there now, makes it even more important to stick with the stuff you like.

3 hours ago, Gommes_ said:

I had a similar feeling. The game didn't bring anything new to the table. It used the ubisoft formula and put it in a great looking setting. Even though the setting

was a lot like in Enslaved.

 

From a technical perspective this game is outstanding but I got bored quickly. Everybody who played things like Red Dead Redemption,

Assassins Creed, Far Cry and pretty much every open world game will not experience anything groundbreaking. 

 

I definitely got an Enslaved vibe from the colours and images they used in the game. Open world settings seem to be the thing that most games try to push in general nowadays. It's almost an expectation now for action/adventure/RPG style games like this.

 

17 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

 

Is this a part of the "enriching discussion" you mentioned before?

giphy.gif

Edited by Crispy_Oglop
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I appreciate you didn't rip it apart completely xD

For ME HZD was the best game I played in a very long time, although I loved a few other games this year to death ^^"

I never played shadow of mordor btw, so I can't say anything about that. but I never needed a minimap an I am one of these ppl who always hate the minimap in almost every game xD of course it could be better to make a minimap that can be turned off fpr players like you, anyway I didn't miss it.

 

The combat was a pure skillgame, yes - the moment you were able to recall all patterns of all monsters and was in posession of all things you needed it was kind of easy. But I wouldn't say it was a bad thing. I know a lot of ppl who tried to level up as fast as they could to beat the game, but they failed, the high level wasn't helpful at all they were to lazy to learn what the game wanted you to learn, you have to be 100% in the combatsystem and the game, and so it sucked me in and blew me away, unnessessary to mention the ppl who failed hated it and bc it was "to hard" for them.

you have to be always careful in the open world and so it gave me a good feeling of "realism" for the lack of a better word. I loved it so much, but in fact I can't comepletely explain why.

I think it is just a question of taste and what kind of player you are.

 

ps I only read the first post, no time for the rest actually xD  no offence to anyone

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9 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

I agree a 6.5 seemed too harsh.  You jumped on the hype train and let a lack of a mini map and optional end-game armor ruin your experience.  You won't be the first or last person to overreact and dislike a great game for dubious reasons.

You named two things I mentioned while there were plenty more but I won't run through them again. 

And is there any law I haven't heard of, which states HZD is a great game? Can I just rate the game lower because I didn't like it? Manhandling someone with different opinion on a video game, now that's what I call overreacting. 

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3 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

 

C'mon man, don't make me throw you on the ignore list because your some punk just regurgitating shitty meme's and GIF's.  You seem to have interesting things to say otherwise.

 

Nah you are right, I do have things to say as I'm sure you do, but you brought the sass to the thread and I addressed the sass that you brought. But let's pretend i'm the punk regurgitating stuff, block away if you like, not really got much else to say to you anyway :)

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12 minutes ago, maniek515 said:

You named two things I mentioned while there were plenty more but I won't run through them again. 

And is there any law I haven't heard of, which states HZD is a great game? Can I just rate the game lower because I didn't like it? Manhandling someone with different opinion on a video game, now that's what I call overreacting. 

 

No one forced you to bring your opinion here.  I disagree with them.  If that's "manhandling" to you, I'd recommend a journal or a blog with the comments disabled or something.

 

Also, I think it's quite clear that HZD is a well regarded game.  I don't like The Witcher 3 for reasons most would consider trite but I still acknowledge its impact on the industry.  Step out of your safe space every once and a while, the world is an interesting place.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Crispy_Oglop said:

 

Nah you are right, I do have things to say as I'm sure you do, but you brought the sass to the thread and I addressed the sass that you brought. But let's pretend i'm the punk regurgitating stuff, block away if you like, not really got much else to say to you anyway :)

 

If we're counting, I was "addressing the sass" of those saying that it isn't appropriate to simply disagree with an opinion without adequate substance.  Funny people would then get upset at my post which actually went into detail with why I disagreed and didn't just drive-by downvote.  But let's pretend I'm actually the punk, and not the prepubescent hypocrite with a folder of shitty GIF's to post at a moments notice.

Edited by Dreakon13
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