Trophy thoughts?

[aZombieDictator]

4 hours ago, Dark said:

 

Not being harsh, just speaking my side on the matter. In a competitive sense, everyone is being affected since you can’t differentiate people that took time and effort to 100% it legitimately to the people that cheesed through using invincibility. The game was designed to be difficult but instead the developers main focus is the people that are afraid of it. It doesn’t make sense. If there was a really easy game people brought solely for trophies, only to find out they were only unlockable through a hidden brutal mode, I’m sure the majority would come out. It’s just a disappointment to the crowd it at first tried to appeal.  

I'm uploading my videos to Youtube, so that's one way you could tell someone isn't using assist mode. I've gotten so many views uploading my non assist Celeste runs.

[baypoo]

Many of us have completed games just for the platinum. And cheesed through.  

 

If you get this game,  you owe it to yourself to do it for real.

 

476 deaths before beating a chapter? Pat yourself on the back! 

[ShadeSplit]

How it works should be decided by the developer. There are many easy games out there, many difficult games, and many in between. I'm glad the developer at least put thought into how it would work.

[Nypholis]

16 hours ago, aZombieDictator said:

I'm uploading my videos to Youtube, so that's one way you could tell someone isn't using assist mode. I've gotten so many views uploading my non assist Celeste runs.

 

Another way is the fact that once you enable assist mode, you get a blue assist stamp displaying so on your save file, which can't be removed even if you turn it off.

 

On a related note, anybody know all the different stamps you can get? I have the clear flag, pink heart, gold heart, and strawberry stamps now, and I'm assuming there's probably one for getting a full-clear on every level since that shows a star in the notebook, and possibly another stamp for golden strawberries (which I am okay with never getting ha)

 

[A1rPun]

Awesome save file @Bemanistyle. I only have the flag and strawberry stamps. I can imagine a deathcount of 10.000 will give you a stamp or some sort

 

So I just tried Assist Mode because I was dying too much on a b-side level...

At first I was like, Oh @Darkis overreacting and this mode shouldn't be too bad but man I was wrong.

Just try it and see that an almost perfect game crumbles to a pile of dust that should have been avoided in the first place.

 

You can say that this is a good move from the dev or that you are responsible for turning it on but it beats the whole point of an ACHIEVEMENT. Why didn't the dev just build a "get all trophies" button... at least you don't have infinidash through all the levels.

 

You guys already know what's possible with assist mode? Here it is:

- Game speed 50% to 100%

- Infinite stamina

- Infinite dashing

- Invincibility mode

Edited January 28, 2018 by A1rPun

[Darkette]

5 minutes ago, A1rPun said:

Awesome save file @Bemanistyle. I only have the flag and strawberry stamps. I can imagine a deathcount of 10.000 will give you a stamp or some sort

 

So I just tried Assist Mode because I was dying too much on a b-side level...

At first I was like, Oh @Darkis overreacting and this mode shouldn't be too bad but man I was wrong.

Just try it and see that an almost perfect game crumbles to a pile of dust that should have been avoided in the first place.

 

You can say that this is a good move from the dev or that you are responsible for turning it on but it beats the whole point of an ACHIEVEMENT. Why didn't the dev just build a "get all trophies" button... at least you don't have infinidash through all the levels.

 

You guys already know what's possible with assist mode? Here it is:

- Game speed 50% to 100%

- Infinite stamina

- Infinite dashing

- Invincibility mode

 

Honestly, it just makes the “achievements” collectibles, nothing else. It’s good and all you have a little icon on your profile if you activate it, but it’s not hard to edit a stamp off of a picture. I know it seems like I’m going above and beyond with this, but the game was so appealing to me, it’s the only thing that puts me off even though I’ll play it eventually. I noticed if you even try to question this choice on steam, you’ll just get face raped with all the elitist name calling when that’s not how it is, at all. This is my last reply on this topic, no point dragging it on.

[A1rPun]

Yeah fair enough Dark, I just wanted people to know that I was in the same boat as the developer until I actually tried Assist Mode.

 

Design flaw or not, we have to deal with this decision. Have fun with it :)! 

[markytonline83]

How dare they make a game accessible to all. 

[Darkette]

6 minutes ago, markytonline83 said:

How dare they make a game accessible to all. 

 

I suppose you didn’t bother to read anything here at all

[atticuslake]

Personally at first I was turned off by the assist mode but my 5 year old was watching me play and wanted to try the game. I started her her own save file with all the cheats and she’s having a great time dashing all over the place and walking on spikes. Win-win in my book since we can both enjoy the game now as it is quite difficult. My save in standard and hers with the assists?

[baypoo]

I just beat the game with no assist (just 30 minutes ago lol), but I also have less experienced gamers (two elementary kids and a casual gamer spouse) in my home that saw me cheering after every passed section. 

 

The difficulty level is a turn off for them, but assist mode might pull them in. 

 

Not all of us find 2000 plus deaths a badge of honor! Some might find it soul crushing.  I want this game to be experienced by everyone.  Do what you gotta do. 

 

Congrats to all of you with the platinum already! Fast minds, good eyes, and nimble thumbs all. 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by baypoo

[LabyrinthWorm]

On 1/27/2018 at 5:24 AM, Dark said:

@Synophis I thought the exact same, I usually naturally think cheats disable trophies/achievements of some sort so I thought nothing of it. Here’s the official word after Horheristo posted about it on steam. 

 

https://imgur.com/a/6lyA3

 

I’ve already bought the game so I’ll play it, but with this type of mindset the developer’s have towards rewarding people, it won’t be prioritised and they won’t be getting money from me again. Their reasoning behind it is beyond me.

 

This is severly flawed logic. I beat Celeste yesterday (going through B-sides now) - without Assist Mode on, but Celeste has an amazing story that people could miss out on. My brother turned the game off after 5 minutes because he said it was "intentionally difficult which was stupid". For me, I like the challenge of learning and repeating in order to accomplish something. I get that the point of B-Sides is to make the game even more difficult and nullifies the intention slightly, but part of the fun of Celeste is the fact that it is a puzzle platformer and part of getting through the game is figuring out the puzzles. I would say assist takes away the challenge of the platforming aspect but leaves the levels in their raw form to experience. To say that you won't buy another game from the developer because they put in a mode that makes it more accessible to more people is really silly logic. They are not forcing you to use assist mode. I get that trophies are supposed to display an achievement of victory and if you can't tell who "cheated" and who went through legitimately, it waters down the accomplishment, but to boycott someone for that when they produced a real piece of artwork is just throwing a tantrum. 

[Gage]

7 minutes ago, LabyrinthWorm said:

"intentionally difficult which was stupid".

 

What does he think difficulty is meant to be? Would he rather it be unintentionally difficult because the game is shitty and broken so it's difficult to play? 

[LabyrinthWorm]

2 minutes ago, Gage said:

 

What does he think difficulty is meant to be? Would he rather it be unintentionally difficult because the game is shitty and broken so it's difficult to play? 

 

I guess "surprisingly difficult" was more where he was going. He loves platformers (we got Iconoclasts as well, which he loves), but a game like Celeste could look like a regular ole platformer vs. an increasingly difficult puzzle platformer. 

[Darkette]

17 minutes ago, LabyrinthWorm said:

To say that you won't buy another game from the developer because they put in a mode that makes it more accessible to more people is really silly logic. 

 

Well I suppose it’s a good thing I never said that then huh? I’m not buying future games from them because of their mindset and how they go about marketing a “challenging platformer”, when in fact they have their eyes on an entirely different set of individuals. I keep seeing the word “accessible” being thrown around here when it’s just cheating your way to the end in reality, there’s no point in sugar coating it. If I wanted to play a game more “accessible” then I’d play one that wasn’t designed to be difficult in the first place.

[LabyrinthWorm]

2 minutes ago, Dark said:

 

Well I suppose it’s a good thing I never said that then huh? I’m not buying future games from them because of their mindset and how they go about marketing a “challenging platformer”, when in fact they have their eyes on an entirely different set of individuals. I keep seeing the word “accessible” being thrown around here when it’s just cheating your way to the end in reality, there’s no point in sugar coating it. If I wanted to play a game more “accessible” then I’d play one that wasn’t designed to be difficult in the first place.

 

Cheating implies breaking a system in order to achieve a positive result. People are not going outside of the rules because the rules are dictated by the developer, who embedded this into their game. I've seen several developers on Twitter commenting on the assist function as a positive thing. 

 

Your experience of the game is not tainted by this feature - it is still a "challenging platformer" - because you don't need to turn on assist mode. I get the point that the platinum trophy is not equal across the board, but your challenging play experience is not hindered by someone else using assist mode. 

Celeste's experience is not hinged solely on the fact that it is difficult. I reached the summit with about 120 strawberries (non-assist mode) last night. I started Level 1 B-side, and yeah, it is difficult, but I think I should be able to make my way through it. I don't mind dying 200 times to get a single strawberry, but some people, who merely want to experience Celeste (the story, level design, environments, etc.) can still do so. 

 

I completely get where you are coming from in regards to the intention of the game, but I think Celeste is pushing outside of a purely SMB experience to offer something different. I hope to platinum the game without using assist mode, and I'm not upset by anyone who has a platinum that did use it.

[Darkette]

21 minutes ago, LabyrinthWorm said:

 

Cheating implies breaking a system in order to achieve a positive result. People are not going outside of the rules because the rules are dictated by the developer, who embedded this into their game. I've seen several developers on Twitter commenting on the assist function as a positive thing. 

 

Your experience of the game is not tainted by this feature - it is still a "challenging platformer" - because you don't need to turn on assist mode. I get the point that the platinum trophy is not equal across the board, but your challenging play experience is not hindered by someone else using assist mode. 

Celeste's experience is not hinged solely on the fact that it is difficult. I reached the summit with about 120 strawberries (non-assist mode) last night. I started Level 1 B-side, and yeah, it is difficult, but I think I should be able to make my way through it. I don't mind dying 200 times to get a single strawberry, but some people, who merely want to experience Celeste (the story, level design, environments, etc.) can still do so. 

 

I completely get where you are coming from in regards to the intention of the game, but I think Celeste is pushing outside of a purely SMB experience to offer something different. I hope to platinum the game without using assist mode, and I'm not upset by anyone who has a platinum that did use it.

 

I understand what you’re saying and respect your view on the matter. But the logic of making  “achievements” and levels based on pure difficulty and then having a feature that makes it trivial, will always baffle me. I just think it’s obscene. 

 

There will always be developers that think this is a good implementation and some that don’t. I know a few that don’t just from purely speaking to them about it. I see the views on the other side of this though and I’m glad we can have a civil conversation here unlike on steam. I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I’ve been watching a lot of gameplay on Twitch and while it looks very good, it’s not the type of game I’ll want to support.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Dark
Spelling

[LucasDiasC]

Wait, can you actually cheese the whole platinum with assist mode? I mean, don't you have to unlock it at least by beating the game first?

wtf

Edit: Yep, just did it lol 6h in the Save File, can be done in less...

Will replay it soon the way it deserves to be played as I'm a big fan of platformers, the game is great, nice soundtrack and interesting characters/story

Edited January 31, 2018 by LucasDiasC

[LabyrinthWorm]

I guess the middle ground here is that although Celeste, inherently, is difficult, it isn't advertised to be "a hardcore game", and thus the achievements are not based on difficulty (EDIT: and duly noted that, by default, achievements are centered around difficulty in some sense, but not in totality). It's not as if there is a trophy for beating the game on hard mode and you get the hard mode trophy for completing it on easy. B-Sides and C-Sides are inherently more difficult with or without assist mode on, so it changes the caliber of difficulty, but the trophies are not based on that caliber - they are based on merely completing it. As trophy hunting goes, sure it creates a fast track to the platinum, but plenty of trophy hunters use collectible guides to get all those random things in games (even in this, someone getting all of the crystal hearts without a guide, due to some of the convoluted ways you get them, is very difficult). 

 

I guess boycotting a developer for having an assist mode says that achievements in games are more important than the actual game because if we didn't have trophies, it would merely be like having an "easy mode" which plenty of games (even difficult ones) have. Obviously, we don't live in a world without trophies anymore (and I consider myself someone who loves the trophy system), but I don't base my opinion of the actual game / developer on the trophy list. Hell, you could get pissed at developers for trophies like "kill 50,000 of one enemy" type which are basically to spite trophy hunters and make them grind for eternity (I remember the developer of Don't Starve specially put in a bunch of trophies to troll the hunters out there). I don't base my opinions of games based on the achievement system, even if I consider myself a trophy hunter. 

 

At the end of the day, Celeste is a fantastic game, and that's what I based my merit of supporting the game / developers in - as games are meant to be fun. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by LabyrinthWorm
added some words

[A1rPun]

Celeste is a beautiful and challenging game, I beat the whole game + collectibles without assist mode. Cheesed most of the B-sides and cheesed all C-sides. Not because I really want, just because I can.

 

Matt (developer of Celeste) should have known humans will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, even in games. If there is a glitch or method to skip a difficult part of a game humans are tempted to exploit this.

 

The feeling I get from many hard platformers is "don't give up and you will succeed". Assist Mode is like "oh you want to give up, here you go".

No actual IRL skills are getting tested here.

 

I'm a developer, that makes my opinion not more acceptable on the matter. I'm human too. 

 

@LabyrinthWorm I don't classify this game as puzzle platformer but I can see what you mean.

Edited January 31, 2018 by A1rPun

[LucasDiasC]

1 hour ago, A1rPun said:

Celeste is a beautiful and challenging game, I beat the whole game + collectibles without assist mode. Cheesed most of the B-sides and cheesed all C-sides. Not because I really want, just because I can.

 

Matt (developer of Celeste) should have known humans will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, even in games. If there is a glitch or method to skip a difficult part of a game humans are tempted to exploit this.

 

The feeling I get from many hard platformers is "don't give up and you will succeed". Assist Mode is like "oh you want to give up, here you go".

No actual IRL skills are getting tested here.

 

I'm a developer, that makes my opinion not more acceptable on the matter. I'm human too. 

 

@LabyrinthWorm I don't classify this game as puzzle platformer but I can see what you mean.

"Not because I really want, just because I can." - EXACTLY

I couldn't describe this better, you get constantly tempted to get the easy way, the effort simply does not seem rewarding enough to do it legit on the B and C-Sides. I really want to do it again very soon despite this, but that's how I felt on this playthrough.

 

[CJ_Mystery]

On 1/26/2018 at 4:07 PM, Dark said:

Just spoke to one of the devs and he confirmed all achievements are attainable via assist mode, which in my opinion isn’t a good move. I’ll be playing it normally anyway since I don’t buy solely based on trophies, but it’s something to know I guess.

I'd probably platinum the game with Assist Mode and then try to play it normally afterwards and see how well I do. I probably won't turn Assist Mode on the normal courses, but I'd do it for the B and C sides because they are far more difficult.

 

I do love platformers but if I have to do the B- and C-sides normally I'll never get the platinum because I suck at precision platforming. I am more of an RPG fan who prefers to take in things.

[LabyrinthWorm]

I wanted to report back on this, and, I am actually going to shift my response to this a bit. 

 

I went back and cleared a lot of the B-Sides myself, but after having the conversation, I wanted to see how assist mode actually changes the game. I didn't realize that there was in invulnerability mode. Paired with unlimited dashing, it waters the game down to basically a sandbox of levels to look at. Although, I retain my thoughts concerning boycotting a developer for not making trophies that you feel are too easy/too hard. There are trophies for pressing the start button (Simpsons game). Trophies do not have a specific standard, and the only measurement of true difficulty comes with the rarity of a trophy (which is also not always the case because if a game is just not popular, it may have a low count). Trophies are what they are, and people can boycott for whatever reason they see fit, but I still think it is silly to boycott because you don't agree with a mode you can ignore in the game. Agreed that a game that hinges part of it's appeal on being difficult, then allowing you to skip that entire part (without no real delineation of the platinum trophy between users who fought through and those who used assist mode), but it is still the choice of the developer. People get upset about multiplayer trophies because they don't play multiplayer (but then they can hook up extra controllers to get those trophies - which you could call cheating because it does not align with the intention of the trophy). 

 

Trophy debate aside, and having earned the platinum, I do feel like the assist mode on this game should disable trophies. I support the developer to do what they want, but once I turned on assist mode, I stopped having fun. It becomes just about the trophies and not about how I was going to get those little strawberries. I didn't even attempt C-Sides without assist mode, and realistically, I have the platinum, but it feels half-hearted because C-Sides (and some of B-Sides) was completed with assist mode on. I think I could have made it through everything without, but it would've taken be another full week to get through (And I wanted to get back to Monster Hunter). As A1rpun said, the path of least resistance is the one that will be taken. In my mind, during my original arguments, I didn't fully understand what assist mode did. I thought maybe a couple extra dashes is what it gave you. The fact that you can just dash through the entire game does dilute the platinum trophy. 

 

With that said, Celeste was still wildly imaginative, beautiful, and had an amazing story about battling our inner demons. I don't think we'd be having this debate about boycotting or gameplay if we lived in a world without trophies, but this is the world we live in, and I do think assist mode should disable trophies. 

[g-bake_1986]

Safe to say I'll be using assist mode at some point.

 

Chapter 2 B-Side: 1 hour 15 minutes, 498 deaths

[Darkette]

@LabyrinthWorm Yeah, I realise I came off a bit strong in my previous posts and I disagree with a few points I made now. More specifically, my intention isn’t to boycott games that do this, but it definitely makes me think twice before buying future products purely because of the lack of any reward for playing the game the intended “challenging” way. I don’t like to carry myself through such a well designed and challenging game, but if I’m not earning any form of reward for putting in time and effort then I sure as hell won’t. Of course I can set myself challenges, but that’s not something that would motivate me at all. I’d like to clarify that I don’t make all my purchases specifically for trophies but they do have a huge impact on them. I’ll definitely be playing the game at some point as it looks amazing to me as said in my initial post, but if I start to feel like I’m wasting time on a specific section then I’ll play the cheap way - because why would I not?