Earning Trophies on 3rd Party, Independently Revived PSN Game Servers

[Darkette]

3 hours ago, Potent_Delusions said:

What games you got your eyes on doing once this becomes an established thing? 

 Honestly, only Bulletstorm as it’s the only game I have hold of right now. I’m not in any rush though, I just think it’s a useful thing to know about for the future. Especially when I decide to go to all my PS3 stuff.

 

Does any of this benefit you in any way? 

 

 

[Waddlingdan]

3 hours ago, Orphioon said:

This seems to only benefit the legitimate trophy hunters, these are the people who actually want to enter these servers and earn the trophies as all the other trophy hunters have in the past, the hackers already can do this extremely easily, they don't need the servers.

An amazing point, it will only benefit legitimate players for the most part, and after all I and I would presume that many others would weigh the pros of revitalising servers over the cons that could potentially come with it.

 

Also has anyone got any links to explain how we can revive these servers? Because I would happily get to work on Homefront and work with the staff team to make this a thing.

[ProfBambam55]

10 minutes ago, Waddlingdan said:

Also has anyone got any links to explain how we can revive these servers? Because I would happily get to work on Homefront and work with the staff team to make this a thing.

https://github.com/gonespy/bstormps3/blob/master/README.md

 

I'll toss in a little fun here and buy premium membership for anyone who tests out the 200 challenges...

Edited March 15, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Potent_Delusions]

6 minutes ago, Waddlingdan said:

Also has anyone got any links to explain how we can revive these servers? Because I would happily get to work on Homefront and work with the staff team to make this a thing.

 

Whilst Homefront would be an amazing game to be revived, I don't think Gonespy helps you with this. I believe only the stats server for Homefront was with Gamespy, the actual matchmaking server itself was with THQ. I could be wrong on that, but I believe it may be the case. The disc case for the game says "Powered by Gamespy" on the back.

[B1rvine]

1 hour ago, NeM2k2 said:

Hey guys. So I wrote Gonespy...

 

First off, generally speaking, I applaud you for your dedication to keep a game's content in tact as best as possible.  There's plenty of games with dead online components I would like to play for fun again, and these sorts of projects breathe life into those games.  I also believe you have honest intentions with this project and Gonespy, so for that, I commend you. I do have to condemn this though as legitimate for purposes of earning trophies multiple reasons.  For one, it's against Playstation Network's ToS.  I'll post the relevant links at the end. I don't know how much of the thread you've read, or if you saw some of my earlier comments, so I'll ask you directly.

 

1) If someone used your source to make a completely private server for a very limited number of people (themselves and friends) got some trophies nobody else could get, how would you feel about that? On a technical level, it would be the same thing, right? But on an ethical level, thats a whole different ball game. Where should the line be drawn?

 

2) I realize hackers won't go to the trouble of "earning" these legit on a server when they can just hack them. But an issue lies in identifying these people. Say your Bulletstorm server was removed by you after some time, and an extra limited number of people earned these trophies afterwards, claiming they had used their own server etc.  How would anyone be able to tell if it was hacked or not? Doesn't this open the door of anyone being able to say "I built a server?"

 

3) You partially answered this but, you can't know other servers will be honest. No end user could ever really be sure without examining the source. Where does the line get drawn to whether its "legit" or not.  Obviously autopopping isn't, but lets say the code secretly made a requirement from 10k kills to 5k, etc.  Legit? Okay, how about 9.5k kills etc etc etc.  Basically, if we can't really ever know, why make any 3rd party legit? Why open the doors to potential abuse.

 

4) How do you feel about people people that aren't running Windows and still won't have access to this "workaround?"  

 

5) Finally, and most importantly, this project IS against the official terms as mentioned above. How do you honestly justify that it's legit for earning trophies based on this?

 

Now, for the legal mumbo jumbo. @BlindMango

 

----------------

 

Under Community Guidelines:

 

You must also adhere to the following rules of conduct when using PSN Services or your Account:  

 

• You may not use, make, or distribute unauthorized software or hardware, including Non-Licensed Peripherals and cheat code software or devices that circumvent any security features or limitations included on any software or devices, in conjunction with PSN Services, or take or use any data from PSN Services to design, develop or update unauthorized software or hardware.   (basically, you admit yourself in Gonespy's FAQ it's a security risk based on how it operates, using PSN's services to achieve such...)
• You may not modify or attempt to modify the online client, disc, save file, server, client-server communication, or other parts of any game title, or content. (basically, this is really referring to PSN firmware, but the clause "game title" extends its meaning...)
• You may not attempt to hack or reverse engineer any code or equipment used in connection with PSN Services. (Authorized 3rd party services Gamespy are referred to multiple times as part of the "property" or an overall part of the PSN service network.
• You may not cause disruption to or modify or damage any Account, system, hardware, software, or network connected to or provided by PSN Services for any reason, including for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage in a game. (depending on who you ask, your code may violate this rule, and this is EA we're talking about... They've sued for less.)
• You may not cheat, exploit or use any bugs, glitches, vulnerabilities or unintentional game mechanics in PSN Services or any of its products or services to obtain an unfair advantage. (again, ethically speaking, your code possibly does this. But it definitely breaks security vulnerabilties less-honest people would employ)

Under licensing:

• PSN Services and content or services provided through PSN Services may contain security or technical features that will prevent use of content or services in violation of this agreement, and you will not circumvent these features without a legal right to do so.

 

Somewhere in there, I lost it now, it refers to all official services like Gamespy as part of the "Property" and that their IP's must not be infringed upon either.  I could go on, but won't.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by B1rvine

[Waddlingdan]

We should pull together and see what we could do, who knows maybe a small team of us could make this a reality with other games @ProfBambam55 @NeM2k2. Even if it did require a different approach etc.

[ProfBambam55]

21 minutes ago, Waddlingdan said:

We should pull together and see what we could do, who knows maybe a small team of us could make this a reality with other games @ProfBambam55 @NeM2k2. Even if it did require a different approach etc.

I'm technologically pretty illiterate but financially quite stable...i'll help where I can but will definitely need "for dummies" guidance...

 

as far as all the Sony ToS jargon...i couldn't care much less...honestly, if I were Sony and saw the community effort, I'd praise it and hire anyone who was contributing to the effort...it costs them absolutely nothing if people are running gonespy so the likelihood of them caring is minimal imo...

 

p.s. about to help a group with their mastermind stuff on ps4 gta v so out of the discussion for tonight...

Edited March 15, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[DARKB1KE]

The one thing I dislike its the absolutes that determine an outcome.

@B1rvine touched upon it

Quote

But an issue lies in identifying these people. Say your Bulletstorm server was removed by you after some time, and an extra limited number of people earned these trophies afterwards, claiming they had used their own server etc.  How would anyone be able to tell if it was hacked or not? Doesn't this open the door of anyone being able to say "I built a server?"

 

The burden of proof is always on the accused and therefore if they can't prove something then it must be true.  Guilty before innocent instead of innocent before proven guilty.

 

Something like this, compare the two scenarios:
1. 

Accuser:  "you cheated your trophies, so show us proof" 
Trophy Hunter:  "i didn't, and i have no way to give proof" 
Accuser:  "then you're guilty, flagged."

 

2.

Accuser:  "you cheated your trophies, show us proof"

Trophy Hunter:  "i used the Gonespy custom server for bulletstorm online trophies, i didn't think to take screenshots of my PC setup or DNS settings on ps3 at the time"

Accuser:  "there's no way to prove that you used those servers, flagged"

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by DARKB1KE

[SnowxSakura]

Just FYI it is currently legal in the US to restore online functionality to defunct games under a DMCA exemption, but if this was attempted with a non-us based developers game they could send a CND and would have to be obliged. However with this, it is illegal according to the current provisions.

 

The LoC placed some important limitations on this new legal right, though. For one, gamers can't legally work to restore online gameplay in titles that required a defunct central server to coordinate such play. Creating third-party matchmaking tools, the LoC argued, would necessarily run afoul of the DMCA's "anti-trafficking provision," which prevents the wide distribution of tools that circumvent DRM and TPM. That means efforts like those to restore online gameplay to the Wii and DS are still illegal under the DMCA.

 

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/11/u-s-govt-grants-limited-right-to-revive-games-behind-abandoned-servers/

[NeM2k2]

53 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

First off, generally speaking, I applaud you for your dedication to keep a game's content in tact as best as possible.  There's plenty of games with dead online components I would like to play for fun again, and these sorts of projects breathe life into those games.  I also believe you have honest intentions with this project and Gonespy, so for that, I commend you. I do have to condemn this though as legitimate for purposes of earning trophies multiple reasons.  For one, it's against Playstation Network's ToS.  I'll post the relevant links at the end. I don't know how much of the thread you've read, or if you saw some of my earlier comments, so I'll ask you directly.

 

1) If someone used your source to make a completely private server for a very limited number of people (themselves and friends) got some trophies nobody else could get, how would you feel about that? On a technical level, it would be the same thing, right? But on an ethical level, thats a whole different ball game. Where should the line be drawn?

 

2) I realize hackers won't go to the trouble of "earning" these legit on a server when they can just hack them. But an issue lies in identifying these people. Say your Bulletstorm server was removed by you after some time, and an extra limited number of people earned these trophies afterwards, claiming they had used their own server etc.  How would anyone be able to tell if it was hacked or not? Doesn't this open the door of anyone being able to say "I built a server?"

 

3) You partially answered this but, you can't know other servers will be honest. No end user could ever really be sure without examining the source. Where does the line get drawn to whether its "legit" or not.  Obviously autopopping isn't, but lets say the code secretly made a requirement from 10k kills to 5k, etc.  Legit? Okay, how about 9.5k kills etc etc etc.  Basically, if we can't really ever know, why make any 3rd party legit? Why open the doors to potential abuse.

 

4) How do you feel about people people that aren't running Windows and still won't have access to this "workaround?"  

 

5) Finally, and most importantly, this project IS against the official terms as mentioned above. How do you honestly justify that it's legit for earning trophies based on this?

 

1) I wouldn't condone that. If there was no public knowledge of a working private server for a game then hopefully trophy tracking sites would then flag those accounts as cheated because there is no known workaround for those trophies. This is one reason why I made the code open source rather than just unlocking the trophies for myself and not telling anyone about it - I didn't want my profile flagged on every tracking site under the sun.

 

2) Don't trophy tracking sites work on a "guilty until proven innocent" policy? If they can't prove they unlocked the trophies "legit" by giving proof of the mechanism used to obtain the trophy then flag their account. This means if I deleted my Bulletstorm server source code and no-one else made it available then there would no longer be a known public method of obtaining those trophies. I'm sure running a trophy tracking site has its challenges, but I don't run one myself so I'm blissfully unaware of the effort that goes into policing leaderboards.

 

3) I can't speak for what is theoretically possible for other servers. Yes, there are obviously potential issues around popping trophies too early/late based on server-based statistics. I'm not sure what the solution is to that problem yet, if there is one at all, other than having other coders check the source code of a server for bugs or exploits. There are already glitches in games with official servers where trophies/achievements pop early/late.

 

4) Java is platform-independent. The instructions are Windows-specific under the assumption that your average trophy hunter would be most likely to have a PC running Windows. There's nothing to stop someone writing instructions that work on other platforms.

 

5) My claim of legitimacy is solely based on the effort required to unlock the trophies. If you choose to define legitimacy otherwise, then all power to you.

 

Quote

"(basically, you admit yourself in Gonespy's FAQ it's a security risk based on how it operates, using PSN's services to achieve such...)"

 

I have been deliberately cautious with my wording in the FAQ to discourage people from running Gonespy publicly and allowing others to connect to it - simply because as an end-user there is no way to tell that the server you are connecting to is not potentially malicious in some way. The only piece of information I can see that is potentially a security issue is an authentication token/encrypted message that the game client obtained from PSN and sends to Gamespy. I have no idea what that token/message contains because I can't decrypt it. Sony issued decryption keys to Gamespy on a game-by-game basis according to the SDK. I can only guess that it contains your PSN ID based on your PSN ID not showing up in game correctly in Bulletstorm when using Gonespy.

 

Quote

"(basically, this is really referring to PSN firmware, but the clause "game title" extends its meaning...)"

 

I'm not a lawyer - I don't know if a third party service like Gamespy would be considered in the definition of a "game title"

 

Quote

"(Authorized 3rd party services Gamespy are referred to multiple times as part of the "property" or an overall part of the PSN service network.)"

 

Can you show that particular section from the guidelines? I'd be interested in seeing it.

 

Quote

"(depending on who you ask, your code may violate this rule, and this is EA we're talking about... They've sued for less.)"

 

This is true. From what I have read online regarding custom servers on PC for EA games that used Gamespy, the authors received cease-and-desist letters because they had to modify the game client as well, which was a breach of the DMCA. If I received a cease-and-desist, I would oblige immediately.

 

Quote

"PSN Services and content or services provided through PSN Services may contain security or technical features that will prevent use of content or services in violation of this agreement, and you will not circumvent these features without a legal right to do so."

 

When I buy a game and it says on the back of the case (or in the description on the online store) that I can play co-op with up to five people, I expect that to be the case when I put the game disc in. If the publisher/developer is at fault for effectively removing this feature from the game, then ethically I have no problems whatsoever with using a third party solution to restore access to the content that I paid for. Legally, I don't know. It may differ depending on the country you, as the end user, live in.

 

I won't bother spending more time arguing the legalities of Gonespy because I am not a lawyer and I'm not that interested in the legalities. The code is based on information that is publicly available, whether it was intended for that information to be publicly available or not. If psnprofiles cannot consider it a legitimate method of unlocking trophies due to legal reasons or otherwise, then that's your right to do so. I think it would disappoint a lot of your users.

 

26 minutes ago, DARKB1KE said:

Accuser:  "you cheated your trophies, show us proof"

Trophy Hunter:  "i used the Gonespy custom server for bulletstorm online trophies, i didn't think to take screenshots of my PC setup or DNS settings on ps3 at the time"

Accuser:  "there's no way to prove that you used those servers, flagged"

 

This. This is exactly why my Xbox tracking was removed from trueachievements. Guilty until proven innocent.

Edited March 16, 2018 by NeM2k2

[NathanielJohn]

1 hour ago, B1rvine said:

• You may not cause disruption to or modify or damage any Account, system, hardware, software, or network connected to or provided by PSN Services for any reason, including for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage in a game. (depending on who you ask, your code may violate this rule, and this is EA we're talking about... They've sued for less.)
• You may not cheat, exploit or use any bugs, glitches, vulnerabilities or unintentional game mechanics in PSN Services or any of its products or services to obtain an unfair advantage. (again, ethically speaking, your code possibly does this. But it definitely breaks security vulnerabilties less-honest people would employ)

 

Just because you have brought up the "but you're violating Sony ToS" thing repeatedly in this thread, I'd like to point out that trophy hunters already regularly do both of these things, despite being against Sony ToS, and every trophy tracking site ever is fine with it.

 

Want to make an online "win 10 ranked matches" trophy easier? Disconnecting mid-match in some games counts as a win (but that is using a disruption to your network connection to gain an unfair advantage, which violates the first point above), and I've seen that in trophy guides as a suggested way of earning a trophy.

 

Want to use an in-game bug or glitch to pop a trophy? No problem, instructions appear in probably 20% of all trophy guides for how to use glitches to your advantage when trophy hunting. Hell, you can use in-game debug menus and that's OK around these parts too, despite being in violation of the second point above.

[B1rvine]

39 minutes ago, NathanielJohn said:

 

Just because you have brought up the "but you're violating Sony ToS" thing repeatedly in this thread, I'd like to point out that trophy hunters already regularly do both of these things, despite being against Sony ToS, and every trophy tracking site ever is fine with it.

 

Want to make an online "win 10 ranked matches" trophy easier? Disconnecting mid-match in some games counts as a win (but that is using a disruption to your network connection to gain an unfair advantage, which violates the first point above), and I've seen that in trophy guides as a suggested way of earning a trophy.

 

Want to use an in-game bug or glitch to pop a trophy? No problem, instructions appear in probably 20% of all trophy guides for how to use glitches to your advantage when trophy hunting. Hell, you can use in-game debug menus and that's OK around these parts too, despite being in violation of the second point above.

 

Ummm, I mentioned the TOS one single time, and provided a list of things because @DaivRules called me out and asked me how...  @SnowxSakura brought another great point in too I had forgotten about.

 

Disconnecting matches would be against Sony's rules too, but its not something this site would be able to identify.  A custom server is able to be identified, and thus, it should be fringed upon. Glitches etc are about the firmware, not individual games.

 

1 hour ago, NeM2k2 said:

snip

 

I do appreciate the response, thank you.  We can agree to disagree.

 

 

1 hour ago, DARKB1KE said:

Guilty before innocent instead of innocent before proven guilty

 

This is sort of a misconception / false info that agitators or people that disapprove of disputes use.  It's not guilty before proven innocent. I'd really rather not go into a lengthy response though. Ultimately, my stance in this case is "I don't care if they're earned "legit" on a custom server.  That's still cheating."

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by B1rvine

[ArkonRhys]

3 hours ago, NeM2k2 said:

Hey guys. So I wrote Gonespy. I did it because I love Bulletstorm and hated that its platinum and DLC trophies were out of my reach. I wanted to see if I could revive this one game as a personal project, and share what I had done so anyone would be able to do it.

 

It's great to see so much discussion around this. I just wanted to add my 2c to some things I've read from this entertaining thread.

 

Autopopping of trophies is not a concern for Bulletstorm. Nothing the server can or could do would autopop any trophies as far as I can tell. There are still unknowns around the 200 challenges trophy as I haven't tried to see how popping that one works.

 

I can't promise that for other games, if the source code is altered to support them. However, why would you jump through so many hoops to autopop trophies with a custom server when you could just mod your profile carefully with so much less effort?

 

I'm not sure what I can do to alleviate the concerns people have with Gonespy. I could close-source the code but then people might be concerned that it is doing nefarious things behind the scenes eg. running a bitcoin miner or harvesting personal info.

 

The last thing I want to do is piss off the leaderboard sites. I've already been untracked on trueachievements thanks to their "guilty until proven innocent" policy doing unconventional things unlocking achievements in GFWL games and I'd prefer to retain my trophy tracking at least (leaderboards I don't really care about)

You are a legend! ?

[NeM2k2]

18 minutes ago, ArkonRhys said:

You are a legend!

 

Thank you

 

Thank you to whoever gifted me Premium, I'm not sure what it means and I don't know who did it but I appreciate it!

 

Thank you everyone who has been supportive, and those who aren't, thank you for being civil about it.

[TheLakota]

30 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

This is sort of a misconception false info that agitators or people that disapprove of disputes use.  It's not guilty before proven innocent. I'd really rather not go into a lengthy response though. 

 

For the sake of transparency, though, you really should; irrespective of whether you want to, it's one of your responsibilities as site staff. 

 

I've seen a few young (so far as I can tell) gamers vilified over what was deemed a questionable timestamp. That's wrong. 

 

I'd really like to see another (operative word being "another" here as there are prior ones) discussion wherein you illustrate the ways in which you don't actively castigate gamers based off conjecture and presuppositions. 

[Fing3rButt3r3]

This debate is still going on? If the guys running this site doesn't want it then go somewhere else?

 

Oh, and Im not for allowing 3rd party servers. Where's the voting booth? I'll make sure to be serious voting, don't want another Trump incident.

[TheLakota]

7 minutes ago, Fing3rButt3r3 said:

I'll make sure to be serious voting, don't want another Trump incident.

 

Don't bring that edgelord shit onto a gaming website.

[Sergen]

45 minutes ago, Fing3rButt3r3 said:

This debate is still going on? If the guys running this site doesn't want it then go somewhere else?

 

Oh, and Im not for allowing 3rd party servers. Where's the voting booth? I'll make sure to be serious voting, don't want another Trump incident.

 

The decision was made here: 

People are just continuing to debate the idea further, maybe because they're upset that people can now earn some of their coveted "unobtainable" trophies. This is a trophy website, so the promotion of trophies being once again obtainable in a legitimate manner: playing the game and performing the requirement within the game and thus in turn getting the trophy to unlock within the game should really be acceptable. PSNProfiles isn't going to be held accountable for what people do with the software, but the website can restrict people from having their trophies on the leaderboard if people are believed to have been cheating to earn the trophies. 

 

There haven't been too many people who have used a revived game server and nobody I've known of has used it on a game for their main account. Either way, we can see how it goes, but remember it's not going to be a free-win for people, it's just giving some people hope if they were unable to finish a game that had the servers shut down and it's been a thing that people have been excited to do for a very long time. At the end of the day, if the game developers who abandoned their games in the first place care enough, they will likely be contacting whoever runs the server independently and giving them some time to stop their project, but for now no company has really tried to crack down on it. People still restore online features for PS2 games and I think if Sony cared about that, they'd definitely be trying to destroy it, but they haven't done anything to deter people from making servers publicly available for their consoles. I'd say you'd be getting into bad territory to halt the PSN services simply to restore online functionality to a game, but simply connecting to the game without doing anything negative to it would keep you safe, if they're allowed to keep selling DLC that only worked for a multiplayer game mode, why aren't you allowed to find a way to get back onto that multiplayer game mode?

 

Anyway, I'll keep the thread up for a bit, but I think if the same things get re-hashed, I will close it. I will say this: there's no rule that prohibits connecting yourself to an emulated game server, it's taken this many years for anyone to find ways to bring back Gamespy games for PSN and it's likely because anyone who wanted to make the code available and such has probably thought this through. Aside from that, I'll say that as long as you've not tampered with a game that Sony owns, they likely won't do anything to you. 

 

This website has promoted boosting through official game servers ever since the website launched, although it's explicitly prohibited in the ToS for PSN, more people have been banned from games for boosting than using a save file to unlock trophies, but it's still allowed here. 

 

I forgot to add that I must say to @NeM2k2 that what you've done is incredible work and you should be praised for going out of your way to bring back a game server and you've tried to help benefit the trophy community by informing people of ways to do the same thing, all for free. It's people like you who give hope to people who thought that they'd never finish that one game that's in their backlog, so I think I speak for many when I say keep up the good work. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Sergen

[Lonemankane]

All we need now is unreal 3 to be put back up online and the game shall finally be more playable as it is a game made for online fun mostly

[joskeabzu]

15 minutes ago, KANERKB said:

All we need now is unreal 3 to be put back up online and the game shall finally be more playable as it is a game made for online fun mostly

 

Highly doubt UT3 will be reverted back online, I believe it runs on dedicated servers. However it might be possible if you could use the PC version. I've never tried UT3 since it was imo a big letdown. However I've enjoyed UT99, UT2K3 and UT2K4. I've played the last 2 games competitively on PC playing "Praccy wars" with other clans as well as competing in Cups. Good times of MP

 

And for nostalgia take a look at this

 

I believe at some point I got fragged as well :'). One of the better frag movies out there.

Edited March 16, 2018 by joskeabzu

[Lonemankane]

1 minute ago, joskeabzu said:

 

Highly doubt UT3 will be reverted back online, I believe it runs on dedicated servers. However it might be possible if you could use the PC version. I've never tried UT3 since it was imo a big letdown.

 

True but yeah I just wanted to play it on ps3 as I never got to and I liked all the UT games and the Qake games too up till this new one coming out as well they are all fun. Last game I played that is like UT is painkiller and yeah

[Floorkiller74]

11 minutes ago, joskeabzu said:

 

Highly doubt UT3 will be reverted back online, I believe it runs on dedicated servers. However it might be possible if you could use the PC version. I've never tried UT3 since it was imo a big letdown. However I've enjoyed UT99, UT2K3 and UT2K4. I've played the last 2 games competitively on PC playing "Praccy wars" with other clans as well as competing in Cups. Good times of MP

 

 

Bulletstorm and Unreal are interesting cases. Both are on other platforms, only the PS3 versions are shut down- and both because they used gamespy. 

[DARKB1KE]

2 hours ago, B1rvine said:

This is sort of a misconception / false info that agitators or people that disapprove of disputes use.  It's not guilty before proven innocent. I'd really rather not go into a lengthy response though. Ultimately, my stance in this case is "I don't care if they're earned "legit" on a custom server.  That's still cheating."

 

Agree to disagree with you on that note, you probably haven't received the same threats that others have been getting.  So it's very much a reality for those people on this website when they get attacked by vigilantes.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by DARKB1KE

[Matto_lsi]

Ok, now that the question was posed, and answered by the site creator, and even the person who created Gonespy chimed in, let's move on to the more important question.

 

If I don't have any trophies in Bulletstorm, can I get the Plat?

 

As someone who purchased the game on a great sale ($5, disc), and merely ONE WEEK later the servers were shut down, I have never even started this game, and it still irks me that I never got the chance.  I'd like to play it, and Plat it, but I won't start it unless I have confirmation that all trophies requiring online functionality can be earned.  I see a trophy for 200 challenges being discussed, and it seems unknown whether this will pop.  Hopefully someone can confirm.  But are there any others?  I haven't studied the trophy guide for this game in years (since that fateful day I sat down to play it to learn the servers had just closed).  So a quick scan now shows a lot of trophies that might be very hard to earn, or maybe even still impossible.  Comments?  Any feedback?  I realize it might take some time for people to check this out.

 

And to be honest, this entire 11 page discussion has been about trophies (not whether or not we can play the games we love, though I did see that point raised here and there).  So with trophies in mind, if anyone can answer these questions and say definitively if the many online-based trophies from this game can be earned now (or not), that would be very helpful to all of us.

 

(And no, I will not 'just check' or be the guinea pig.  I might not have 100% on my profile, but I do always get the plat.  I have 1 account, and won't risk it without confirmation, and even then I'll be a little hesitant.)

[B1rvine]

TLDR Version:  We need solid rules, based on logic, that aren't prone to the cheater team's interpretation when gray areas arise, or have the ability to be swayed in a 180 degree direction from the current rules, just because a new situation arises and the big cheese made a ruling completely contradicting previous rules, as this situation did. Lets be real here, how many of you would love that @MMDE wouldn't be able to "pick" what's legit or not on gray issues if this occurred. (sorry mmde, had to pick on you)

 

@NeM2k2

I guess my ultimate issue with this whole thing is -- I'd like to have clearer, solid, black and white regulations, and the reasoning behind it -- and then create logical rules based on those accordingly that leave no room for a gray area or exceptions. Currently we have the rules, but allow potential cherry picking if a gray area arises. There have been contradictions to outcomes of disputes of the same nature based on which mod handles it and their version of ethics already.  That's unacceptable in my opinion. So lets eliminate the gray area, and the choice to make an ethical decision -- completely. Instead, lets make a completely new system based on logic that leaves no room for interpretation, uniform flagged dispute outcomes, and hopefully addresses unforeseen issues like this one. There's no reason this suggestion shouldn't have unanimous support.  ( @BlindMango this is where you step up - see my full response for why)

 

Followup on your answers:

 

1) The fact you wouldn't condone a private server raises a huge red flag and directly relates to my previous paragraph. Hypothetical scenario for you... Someone gets flagged for getting trophies after servers shut down on an online game.  They prove they earned the trophies on an exact replica private server, and compare their private server to yours. If there was only a generic rule simply allowing custom servers, PSNP would then have to un-flag them, since on a "technical" level, they're doing the exact same thing as you.  If the site did keep this person flagged, they'd be cherry picking servers based on ethics (the gray area), and then it becomes an argument of who's ethics are more popular or whatever. The ethical dilemma could occur on hundreds of different issues (not necessarily even only the custom server thing, but any slightly different scenario thats possibly flaggable.)  But to use the server example, I'll throw this to you:  What if this "private" server had MORE people than your public server, would it be an issue then? Suddenly its not so easy.

 

2) No, its not guilty until innocent. Really though, what I'm talking about, again, is an ethical dilemma. Why do you get to determine public custom servers are legit and private aren't? Your biggest supporter, @ProfBambam55 already disagrees and said private servers should be allowed. Also, what exactly is a "known public server?" How should someone who heavily advertises on Gamefaqs.com about reviving a server, on a super unpopular game and nobody notices in the trophy community until a flag is raised. They could make a great argument that it was "public" for a time.  Essentially, too much gray area and ethical issues here that need SUPER clear definitions and reasoning.

 

3) Official glitches on servers everyone's on the same footing, so that's fair game.  Sly basically said "Do this at your own risk." AKA Maybe. That's not a good "official" rule.  What happens if someone finds an legitimate error in your code 6 months from now and its discovered trophies are easier (I know nothing of Bulletstorm, and I'm sure your code is good... but for arguments sake).  Does maybe mean "oh well, everyone gets flagged?"  I mean, lets be honest, the first person who ever had their PS3 YLOD on them in 2008 may have earned trophies out of order impossibly. And that was LONG before the rules existed here prohibiting saves. Why should they be retroactively affected? Which brings me to the ethical dilemma again, why should a sudden rule change going 180 from before just because of some new "gray scenario" have the ability to affect tons of gamers legitimacy? What's the next "big debate" going to be, and will it affect any previous rules? Enough on this.

 

4) That's good to know. I was pretty sure it was cross platform but it was worded in a way that made me hesitate.

 

5) See 1 - 4

 

Edit: I would be in support of custom servers, if the rules were updated in the manner listed.  But I'm not in support of it now, only because we basically did a 180 from the previous rule, and there's nothing to say we won't go 180 again.

 

Edit 2: I'm basing my "180 degree turnaround" based on PSNP stating their rules are based on what PSN allows, and this change doesn't reflect that.  Also logically, as its written to the exact word, using a custom server violates 3 listed rules: CFW, Hacked servers, and Boosting (via external means) albeit to lesser degrees than the listed example if severity is accounted for.

 

Edit 3 : The specific rules that need huge updates are :

Custom servers:   Needs HUGE clarification.  Anything involved in the "white-list" issue: different disputes have had different results for this same issue. Minor wording changes in a lot of descriptions. "ie auto-unlock, since not all saves etc will necessarily do that, but its the action of using that method, not the auto-unlock thats the offense. I'm sure everyone knows this, but doesn't hurt to make it stupid-proof.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by B1rvine