Earning Trophies on 3rd Party, Independently Revived PSN Game Servers

[DaivRules]

As MMDE has stated on multiple instances, he wants to make sure he controls the entire narrative so the desired income can only align with his FUD-laden view of how he wants things to go.

FWIW, just like the other flag disputes, the executioners for Disputes should have to do the research on flags for games that have “revived servers” (there can’t be that many of them affecting PlayStation games right now) and decide if the flag is legit or not. Taking the “maybe this and that might happen sometimes possible in the future so we should clamp down” AKA easy and lazy way is cowardly. If you want “perfect” Leaderboards, you gotta put in a shitload more effort. 

[MMDE]

16 minutes ago, Sergen said:

 

That's why I believe the regulation should be for people to provide some evidence showing that they could get online and do some trophies for the game, if they could get on the server once then they can do it again. You are currently arguing against people playing a game in the way it was intended because one person has to use a various means to allow other people to connect. People also wrote xLinkKai as a software that does something that wasn't intended by your console, play a LAN mode with people who are across the world. You actually MUST run the xLinkKai software on your own PC as you are playing the game and the other person must do that and anyone playing in your lobby also needs to do that, it is manipulating external software to play online, while this website still considers that as a legitimate means of earning trophies. 

 

I'd also like to mention that some people also used patch blockers for various online games to play an older version of the online, sometimes to use glitches that were patched, like people who wanted to grind XP quickly for Crysis 2 would all use a patch blocker to play online. But although people did that, I have yet to see a single person get flagged for using a patch blocker to exploit an online glitch. 

 

Honestly, you should edit your opening post in this thread, because it's rather misleading. It's just counterproductive to any kind of meaningful discussion.

 

You conflate these three things:

1. DNS servers. A server you contact to resolve domain addresses into an IP etc. Basically a contact list you search for someone's address based on their name. This you can set to whatever you want, and usually your ISP gives you on automatically, just like they give you an IP address too.
2. A LAN, extended LAN or VPN etc. Basically, at home you're on a local network that is hidden behind a router. Others online can't just contact whatever PC on your local network, what they communicate with is your router. The router may send your PC the data that is sent to the router if it knows where to send it. This can be done in several ways, like directing all data on a port to your PC or your PC having told the router that you got a temporary open connection etc and that you're expecting data etc. You can extend this local network over the internet, often called VPN (virtual private network), where you emulate a private network over the internet.
3. A custom server, some software running on a PC to emulate a server and maybe offer new functionality and mods etc.

 

What you want to talk about is the third, so do that, and don't conflate it with the two other things. This is just misleading and is counterproductive to any meaningful discussion.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE

[Sergen]

Another thing I'd like to mention is that the person who made Bulletstorm work again also mentioned that if he was able to acquire the gamespy.com domain then he could run servers for those games and it would allow people to connect to the server without any DNS codes or network exploits. Who's to say someone behind the scenes who is clever enough to get the server codes hasn't been secretly running a server after it was officially closed by the developers? R.U.S.E., Call of Juarez: Bound in Blood and Batman: Arkham Origins were all announced to shut down a long time ago but have yet to stop working, it is possible someone has privately taken them over but left them up for the public to play with. The same could also be said for any game in general, you never know if that one game that wasn't working for a long time that ends up working again was fixed by someone else who decided to use a custom server. The whole aim of trophy hunting a lot of the time is to be able to get as many trophies as you can, so for anyone to be against more trophies being legitimately obtainable is quite bizarre. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Sergen

[Elvick_]

3 minutes ago, MMDE said:

As you say, the servers were closed. What they are doing is writing their own servers... Imagine the servers being private or it just giving you all of what is required for a trophy to pop? Do you honestly consider this legitimate way to earn the trophies?  

Imagine they do something else? Why? That's not what we're talking about. Imagine someone hacks trophy data that has believable time stamps? Now what, we're going to deny things based on "what ifs" right? So, what is the response to that? The only solution would be shutting down the leaderboards entirely, right? Problem solved.
 

1 minute ago, MMDE said:

Well, he did start this to get everyone to talk about it, even if he claims what he did it for was mainly to contact Sly about it, which I already did, and he knew that. He also presented it incorrectly, after I already corrected him about it several times. At least @Potent_Delusions seems to understand this better.

He presented it with a different opinion, while you dismiss it as hacking and then talk about irrelevant things. Like "well what if"... well what if people legitimate earn the trophy? Which is what we're talking about? How is "hacking" to open up a way to legitimately earn a trophy as intended... harmful to leaderboards? All it's harmful to is the ego trip of having an unobtainable trophy, that's it.

Which is closer to "hacking" a trophy to autopop without doing what was intended; Exploiting a glitch in a game to earn a trophy in a manner that's not intended, or "hacking" so people can play online and earn a trophy the same way they could have if the servers were not shut off by the developers? Because to me it's the first one. Neither are actually "hacking" a trophy, they're just ways to get a trophy. You don't even do what the trophy intends for exploits, hence the term. Why is this not also an "exploit" instead of "hacking" to you?

Pretty sure who I was referring to in my original comment was you now that I see your comments on it here, since they're pretty much exactly what I remember. If that's the case, I'm still unconvinced by your arguments against it.

How about we talk about this stuff for what it is, and not if it were something else. And how about you stop dismissing every argument for it with "it's hacking!"? Because then we could actually have a discussion. If you've got something beyond that, I'd love to hear it. Because I honestly fail to see how allowing people to earn trophies legitimately [doing the requirements] is "hacking" in a manner that is deserving of being flagged.

[MMDE]

8 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

As MMDE has stated on multiple instances, he wants to make sure he controls the entire narrative so the desired income can only align with his FUD-laden view of how he wants things to go.

FWIW, just like the other flag disputes, the executioners for Disputes should have to do the research on flags for games that have “revived servers” (there can’t be that many of them affecting PlayStation games right now) and decide if the flag is legit or not. Taking the “maybe this and that might happen sometimes possible in the future so we should clamp down” AKA easy and lazy way is cowardly. If you want “perfect” Leaderboards, you gotta put in a shitload more effort. 

 

No, it's more about the fact that he lies in the opening post, and then conflates 3 things he's already been corrected several times is not the same thing. He doesn't just conflate it though, he presents it as things that it is not, and he knew this before he created the thread.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE

[WaddysWDS]

@MMDE, shut up your mouth and go clean the list of Aliens Vs Predator, which are all hackers.

Edited March 15, 2018 by WaddysWDS

[Alternatewarning]

While I attempt to avoid online games as much as possible and this is outside my realm of knowledge, on the whole, I like the idea.  Private servers would give people a chance to finish or continue playing a game that was taken away without their input.  IN theory, that's great!

[MMDE]

7 minutes ago, WaddysWDS said:

@MMDE, shut up your mouth and go clean the list of Aliens Vs Predator, which are all hackers.

 

https://www.playstationtrophies.org/forum/aliens-vs-predator/223610-xp-glitch-proxy-server.html

 

if this is what being discussed. That is not an emulated/custom server, and is NOT what is actually being discussed here AKA why Sergen presented what he wants to talk about as something it is not.

 

EDIT:

Give me a little while to find what is actually comparable to what Sergen is talking about, and why this has generally not been okay.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE

[WaddysWDS]

2 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

https://www.playstationtrophies.org/forum/aliens-vs-predator/223610-xp-glitch-proxy-server.html

 

if this is what being discussed. That is not an emulated/custom server, and is NOT what is actually being discussed here AKA why Sergen presented what he wants to talk about as something it is not.

But it is a modification in the connections of the console to obtain a coveted trophy.
I stress ... MODIFICATION ... you do not want a clean ranking ...

 

Why are you saying that a private server should not be allowed, therefore, changes in the routed console also not?

[Scalith_]

4 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

https://www.playstationtrophies.org/forum/aliens-vs-predator/223610-xp-glitch-proxy-server.html

 

if this is what being discussed. That is not an emulated/custom server, and is NOT what is actually being discussed here AKA why Sergen presented what he wants to talk about as something it is not.

Is this allowed or will I get flagged?

 

I just started AvP and that would sure be helpful :')

[WaddysWDS]

2 minutes ago, Scalith_ said:

Is this allowed or will I get flagged?

 

I just started AvP and that would sure be helpful :')

Currently it is allowed.

[Scalith_]

1 minute ago, WaddysWDS said:

Currently it is allowed.

Alright sweet,

 

Out of curiousity, are there any other games that have a similar private server sort of thing that you can use?

[turpinator1986]

think it’s a bad idea personally. Why would you want to connect to some externally run software on some random guy’s PC? No thanks. I’ll take a pass on meddling with my internet settings and risking my profile just to play a ten year old game. 

[WaddysWDS]

2 minutes ago, Scalith_ said:

Alright sweet,

 

Out of curiousity, are there any other games that have a similar private server sort of thing that you can use?

 

Only Bulletstorm and Demons Souls, no more private servers of this type are known, I'm sorry.

[MMDE]

11 minutes ago, Scalith_ said:

Is this allowed or will I get flagged?

 

I just started AvP and that would sure be helpful :')

 

Well, if I understand what they did they basically used a proxy server, basically a remote computer you send and receive data through. Somehow this would make the PS3 not ask you to patch the game and still play online. This meant that they could play the game online without latest patch, and thereby exploit and old glitch that was patched. I'm not sure how happy Sony is about that though.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE

[XIRCHRAD-]

I think it's a great idea. People get to go back to finish up something they didn't do in time or better yet, get to start something they missed.

I personally see more positives then negatives, especially if they can prove that they are not doing anything that's deemed against the rules.

 

Just depends if you're willing to live with the risks in-case something bad does happen.

[ProfBambam55]

22 minutes ago, MMDE said:

1. A custom server, some software running on a PC to emulate a server and maybe offer new functionality and mods etc.

the above bolding is the key...is this above point where the fear lies?...i think custom servers definitely run the risk of people modifying them...often, they even improve upon them since they give more of a $hit than the devs do/did...in terms of flaggable offense I couldn't care less...if the cheat team is concerned about how legit the servers are well, they could just try them out...can't be much worse than shooting dead bodies in rdr to earn trophies, right?...

 

in terms of awesomeness, if someone loves a game enough to revive its servers, and yes, on their pc *gasp* (how the f**k else would they do it?...their car battery?), then I think it's great...i would even take it a step further and consider funding this kind of thing if it helped the community and if what was being offered was quality...

[dmland12]

This is potentially opening up a big can of worms and I'm not sure many in this thread seem to realize this.  You're talking about letting third party software help pop trophies.  If it's a correct duplication of the original servers and code then there's no real harm, but if not...

[Sergen]

Just now, dmland12 said:

This is potentially opening up a big can of worms and I'm not sure many in this thread seem to realize this.  You're talking about letting third party software help pop trophies.  If it's a correct duplication of the original servers and code then there's no real harm, but if not...

 

That's why I said multiple times that some form of regulation should be applied, where people who play on those servers would need to also prove that some of the trophies they earned on the server were legitimate. You could apply the "guilty until proven innocent" rule for this, if people are at least made aware of what is and isn't allowed, it does not mislead people. It is best to get a conclusion to this idea now before people start opening up more servers and people blindly go on them without knowing what the stance is on this website. But at the end of the day, if the trophies can be earned in the exact same manner as anyone who played on that server did the trophies in the past, that really should not be considered as cheating. So many blatant things that actually do cheat on the game such as boosting is not only allowed on this website, but actually promoted more often than not although a lot of game developers have gone out of their way to ban people who boost to increase their stats. But I have also said before, who knows which games may be running custom servers right now without anyone knowing? You can't know that unless you've been given personal access to the server unit that the developers use. 

[Potent_Delusions]

The thing I think we need to remember here is: The guy/team doing this is aware of the implications with trophy tracking websites. He even mentioned this in his post on the link provided!

 

If he is aware of this, then he obviously isn't going to modify the server in such a way to further risk controversy e.g. 5x XP on FEAR 2. I believe the sole purpose of this project is to restore obtainability to games and not to make them easier. 

[B1rvine]

Well, I'm pretty sure nobody will see this post as it's about to turn into a flame war, and we're already on page three...

 

Anyway, I do NOT think private servers should be allowed.  Otherwise, anyone with the know how could write up their own custom server and make whatever modifications they wanted to make trophies super easy for themselves. This wouldn't always be the case, but people taking advantage of the situation could get the trophies illegitimately on their own private server (with modifications) and just say, "I did it legit on the custom server."

 

 

[MMDE]

24 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

the above bolding is the key...is this above point where the fear lies?...i think custom servers definitely run the risk of people modifying them...often, they even improve upon them since they give more of a $hit than the devs do/did...in terms of flaggable offense I couldn't care less...if the cheat team is concerned about how legit the servers are well, they could just try them out...can't be much worse than shooting dead bodies in rdr to earn trophies, right?...

 

in terms of awesomeness, if someone loves a game enough to revive its servers, and yes, on their pc *gasp* (how the f**k else would they do it?...their car battery?), then I think it's great...i would even take it a step further and consider funding this kind of thing if it helped the community and if what was being offered was quality...

 

The entire line is the issue. You're running some software written by whoever on your PC to interact with your console and it can do whatever the game allows it to as long as it interacts with the game in a way the game knows how to handle. What this can potentially do is of course another aspect of it, but there's also other obvious issues with it.

 

Some things I already brought up elsewhere.

 

Quote

So recently a lot of people have been working on making custom servers for a lot of games, especially relevant is the ones where the official servers have gone down.

 

If people earn online trophies for games where the official servers are down, and they do it using software on PC, is this okay? I wouldn't think it would be okay. While a vanilla server might look innocent, what happens when they start modding it? Isn't it already modding? Is it available for everyone? Same goes for when people earn trophies too fast for what is possible when the servers are down?

 

I see more and more of this, and while I think it's great people get to keep playing the online if they want to, I don't think earning trophies using these servers should be okay. Furthermore, I wonder where this will go when it comes to newer games and modded servers etc. Also, what happens when they don't wanna share server code and keep the server private?

 

Thoughts?

 

And Sergen knew this when he created the thread, which is why this all feels so one-sided, misleading and misrepresented to me. He doesn't even attempt to talk about this honestly. Doesn't present the facts correctly, talks about other things as if it's the same thing and doesn't even mention any of the cons. This means this discussion started at a very poor point, but we can try to move on from there. People here basically act as if this isn't my response to someone wanting to talk what we're actually talking about here:

 

1 hour ago, MMDE said:

I think if any of this should be allowed, it should at least be discussed what is allowed.

 

Anyway, you basically ask for the cons? I think I provided some questions earlier, and here some more I did elsewhere:

 

Quote

Seriously gotta remember that we're talking about things that are far from being legit servers. It's just someone who has written something that may emulate the official servers to some degree, and I think it opens up for a lot of abuse. I'm questioning a bit how much Sony themselves actually likes this trend. Who knows what kind of security holes there is or how malicious it is. What happens if it's private servers, running tons of mods and people are harassed or kept out etc. I just don't think this is okay at all. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Potent_Delusions said:

The thing I think we need to remember here is: The guy/team doing this is aware of the implications with trophy tracking websites. He even mentioned this in his post on the link provided!

 

If he is aware of this, then he obviously isn't going to modify the server in such a way to further risk controversy e.g. 5x XP on FEAR 2. I believe the sole purpose of this project is to restore obtainability to games and not to make them easier. 

 

If you looked at it, you also saw that it was basically just a git project anyone can download and make changes to before building. And you're intended to download, build and run on your own PC. Also not sure the guy who posted it even wrote the sever themselves. In fact, the way the guy talks about it in the opening post, it sounds like they didn't write the server.

 

 

16 minutes ago, dmland12 said:

This is potentially opening up a big can of worms and I'm not sure many in this thread seem to realize this.  You're talking about letting third party software help pop trophies.  If it's a correct duplication of the original servers and code then there's no real harm, but if not...

 

? You at least seem to get the problems with it, and what should be discussed here.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE

[ProfBambam55]

3 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

people taking advantage of the situation could get the trophies illegitimately on their own private server (with modifications) and just say, "I did it legit on the custom server."

if the time stamps check out and they're willing to do this for trophies just let them have them is what I say...life is too short and there are enough people who camouflage their ill-earned trophies that we'll never be able to detect on our leaderboards to consider them "legit" anyhow...

 

let's also remember the classic "you can always delete/recreate user if all the trophies start to ding"...you run the risk of getting a flag if you use custom servers...well, same can be said for official devs servers while playing certain games as they were intended to be played...i think this whole flag business is taken way too seriously...great that the site tries to police leaderboards but sometimes it just seems a bit much...

[thegirlruka]

I'm agreeing with MMDE in thinking that this is going to far and should be labeled cheating. It's not a simple DNS switch. It's more similar to the packet-intercepts that were used with Street Fighter V.

 

This is sly's official response to that one:

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by kuuhaku

[MMDE]

2 minutes ago, kuuhaku said:

I'm agreeing with MMDE in thinking that this is going to far and should be labeled cheating. It's not a simple DNS switch. It's more similar to the packet-intercepts that were used with Street Fighter V.

 

This is sly's official response to that one:

 

 

 

 

That is exactly what I was looking when I said the following:

 

55 minutes ago, MMDE said:

EDIT:

Give me a little while to find what is actually comparable to what Sergen is talking about, and why this has generally not been okay.

 

Just couldn't find it!  

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE