Kaz plot hole

[Sir-Syzygy]

*Spoilers for Ground Zeros & Peace Walker*

 

At some point during Ground Zeros, Kazuhira Miller says "I can't believe we ever bought that cover story", in reference to how the character of Paz Ortega Andrade was secretly a Cipher triple agent throughout the Peace Walker incident. However, at the end of chapter 5 in Peace Walker, it's revealed that Kaz actually knew Paz's secret right from the very start, since he had some sort of deal with Cipher. With this in mind, it doesn't make sense for Kaz to say the line "I can't believe we ever bought that cover story" in Ground Zeros. Is there any explanation for this? Or is it just an overlooked plot hole? 

Personally, I think this was a retcon done to give a little extra inner-rage to Kaz, leading up to what he becomes after the 9-year coma Big Boss has from 1975 to 1984. Either that or Hideo Kojima has staged another convoluted conspiracy that has yet to be discovered properly within the fanbase, but that may be a bit too far-fetched.

 

Let me know what you think. 

[Nemmy_Wemmy]

Nanomachines son

[Sir-Syzygy]

34 minutes ago, The High Ground said:

Nanomachines son

Those nanomachines... THEY PLAYED US LIKE A DAMN FIDDLE!!!

[Nemmy_Wemmy]

42 minutes ago, Crispy78923 said:

Those nanomachines... THEY PLAYED US LIKE A DAMN FIDDLE!!!

watch this, you will be pleased, it answers all of your questions about plotholes, I promise.

[Sir-Syzygy]

On 3/18/2018 at 7:30 PM, The High Ground said:

watch this, you will be pleased, it answers all of your questions about plotholes, I promise.

The fiddles were the key all along, Kojima just had to get them working. They were funnier characters than we've had before.

[Nemmy_Wemmy]

lol I hope someone can answer this bc I myself would like to know as well

[ViperLance34]

I think it's a translation error.

[Lianco]

No, the 'cover story' remark is in relation to Huey's insistence on the IAEA's inspection of Mother Base actually being a raid by XOF. I may be wrong but that's how he refers to it in TPP and when reading your comment that's how I already interpreted that remark. I was real deep into MGS lore for a time but I may be wrong, I just don't see why Kaz would say that remark in relation to Paz in this game, it makes no sense, given the current circumstances they're going through.

 

Big Boss was very noticeably bothered by the fact that his second in command admitted to having direct communication with Zero during the events of PW and I think that helps his decision to just leave him behind when the events of V start. I do wish we had a better introduction to Kaz and Big Boss though, he just kinda appears. I know how they met but we never see it. 

[bikeman223]

1 hour ago, Lianco said:

I do wish we had a better introduction to Kaz and Big Boss though, he just kinda appears. I know how they met but we never see it. 

There is a Japanese audio drama that covers that. You can read the transcripts here. Metal_Gear_Solid:_Peace_Walker_-_Heiwa_to_Kazuhira_no_Blues 

Edited October 17, 2020 by bikeman223

[Lianco]

20 hours ago, bikeman223 said:

There is a Japanese audio drama that covers that. You can read the transcripts here. Metal_Gear_Solid:_Peace_Walker_-_Heiwa_to_Kazuhira_no_Blues 

Oh sweet, thank you for that! Only audio drama I know is the one about them in the shower with Paz talking about it lmao. 

[bikeman223]

22 minutes ago, Lianco said:

Only audio drama I know is the one about them in the shower with Paz talking about it lmao. 

 

Which funnily enough someone got Robin and Hayter to dub. 

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by bikeman223

[Slava]

Just googled and found this thread about it on gameFAQs. Maybe it will help. Although, after scrolling through the first page, I haven't found the answer yet ? 

 

20 hours ago, Lianco said:

No, the 'cover story' remark is in relation to Huey's insistence on the IAEA's inspection of Mother Base actually being a raid by XOF. I may be wrong but that's how he refers to it in TPP and when reading your comment that's how I already interpreted that remark.

 

I thought about the same thing at first. But it's about Paz. The full quote is "The rain was coming down just as hard the day we met Paz. "I only want peace for my country." I can't believe we ever bought that cover story. After Paz tried to steal Zeke from us, and we watched her get pulled beneath the waves... There was one thing I kept asking myself. Which was the real Paz and which was the lie?"

 

Edit: just noticed this thread is from 2018.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Alderriz

[Lianco]

6 hours ago, Alderriz said:

Just googled and found this thread about it on gameFAQs. Maybe it will help. Although, after scrolling through the first page, I haven't found the answer yet  

 

 

I thought about the same thing at first. But it's about Paz. The full quote is "The rain was coming down just as hard the day we met Paz. "I only want peace for my country." I can't believe we ever bought that cover story. After Paz tried to steal Zeke from us, and we watched her get pulled beneath the waves... There was one thing I kept asking myself. Which was the real Paz and which was the lie?"

 

Edit: just noticed this thread is from 2018.

 

Yeah lol, I know this is an old thread but I wanted to help OP in a way I thought I could; didn't expect others to respond to. 

 

Well then I have no idea, it doesn't make sense then or like someone else said, is a mistranslation. I don't know if Miller knew about Paz but he was definitely in contact with Zero. I haven't played PW's story in a long time because the final act of the game with the 'true' ending is horrible. 

[bikeman223]

1 hour ago, Lianco said:

Well then I have no idea, it doesn't make sense then or like someone else said, is a mistranslation. I don't know if Miller knew about Paz but he was definitely in contact with Zero. I haven't played PW's story in a long time because the final act of the game with the 'true' ending is horrible. 

This got me curious so I went back and watched the True ending for Peace Walker again. Kaz admits to Big Boss that he knew who Paz and the Zadornov were the whole time. “I knew Paz and the Professor, I knew who they really were all along”. However it’s a little strange because the way it’s worded implies that Kaz wasn’t familiar with the name Cipher meaning that Zero started using it after his association with him. I don't know if it is a mistranslation or he's only referring to knowing them both being KBG, however that's not much of a revelation since Zadornov tells both of them that in the opening. I'd be interested to know if the Japanese versions contain these inconsistencies.

 

Edit: Come to think of it, if Kaz knew she was Cipher the whole time why would he still treat her like a kid and try to get her to join his Peace Day band. There's even a cassette tape in Peace Walker where he expresses his shock over her betrayal, "How could Paz... We were going to start a band together." Clients- Paz- Cipher. I think, unless he's really trying to trick Big Boss (which isn't very hard) his confession in the true ending is meant to reveal that he knew Paz's KBG/CIA affiliations but not her Cipher ones. I guess he thought she was innocent/being manipulated and not a spy.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by bikeman223

[bikeman223]

I've found the full briefing cassette transcript I think this sheds things in a different light. 

 

CIPHER

Kazuhira Miller: How could Paz... We were going to start a band together...
Naked Snake (Big Boss): She was posing as a KGB agent, too?
Miller: She must have put on the act to get close to Gálvez. Wonder how much Coldman knew... But the whole time she was working for some organization called "Cipher."
Snake: "Cipher"... Ring any bells, Kaz?
Miller: Cipher... Cipher... it means "code." Or "zero" in Arabic numerals.
Snake: Zero...
Miller: Does that mean something to you?
Snake: Not sure.
Miller: Hmm. You know, "cipher" and "zero" were basically the same word. It's a linguistic redundancy. The word stems from the Sanskrit "shunya"... It corresponds to the Buddhist concept of emptiness. In Buddhism, "shunya" means hollow. It supposedly refers to something that's swollen and empty on the inside.
Snake: A big, swollen emptiness... just like outer space.

 

 

And here's the secret file transcript, which I believe takes place after the first ending but before the true one.

 

Secret File

The Phone Call

Kazuhira Miller: ...It's me. Smoothly, naturally. No, Big Boss doesn't know the truth... No, Langley hasn't decided what to do yet. Their hands are full with their own mess. True, Lubyanka is in the same boat... Yes, other eyes continue to watch, but no sign of contact so far. ...Exactly. It's a non-state army to use however they want. They've probably decided there's no sense in wiping them out just yet. Better to make... use of them. Indeed they have... There's a site near Angola... And we've fully validated the AI as well... Agreed. In the end, a machine is just that: a machine. Sigint was right. It seems it's time for a change in approach. Machines are best suited to specialize in high-level data processing. Yes... Of course. Speaking of which, any news on the "sons"...? Two already... Really... ...But they're strictly an insurance policy, yes? Mmmmm... So that's the idea... I wonder how Big Boss will respond... Yes. But I'm only interested in the business angle. Like I said before, I'm neither an enemy nor an ally. I'm merely a business partner. Don't forget it. Yes, I'll be in touch... my dear Zero (CIPHER).

Edited October 18, 2020 by bikeman223

[Lianco]

3 hours ago, bikeman223 said:

This got me curious so I went back and watched the True ending for Peace Walker again. Kaz admits to Big Boss that he knew who Paz and the Zadornov were the whole time. “I knew Paz and the Professor, I knew who they really were all along”. However it’s a little strange because the way it’s worded implies that Kaz wasn’t familiar with the name Cipher meaning that Zero started using it after his association with him. I don't know if it is a mistranslation or he's only referring to knowing them both being KBG, however that's not much of a revelation since Zadornov tells both of them that in the opening. I'd be interested to know if the Japanese versions contain these inconsistencies.

 

Edit: Come to think of it, if Kaz knew she was Cipher the whole time why would he still treat her like a kid and try to get her to join his Peace Day band. There's even a cassette tape in Peace Walker where he expresses his shock over her betrayal, "How could Paz... We were going to start a band together." Clients- Paz- Cipher. I think, unless he's really trying to trick Big Boss (which isn't very hard) his confession in the true ending is meant to reveal that he knew Paz's KBG/CIA affiliations but not her Cipher ones. I guess he thought she was innocent/being manipulated and not a spy.

 

 

 

 

Yeah I remember playing MGSV and basically just hearing 'Cipher' for the first time and I only went back to play PW's true ending after I finished V's. I've been referring to him as 'Zero' for this thread because I think Cipher means something different in the context of V and I don't wanna get it confused. I don't really know where it comes from but Miller was naïve, basically. He only saw the potential good of trying to form peace with Zero. But that is also true, Miller may only know the truth about Paz and Zadornov but it's likely Zero kept his secrets that Miller didn't even know about, it fits his character. Miller may be working with Zero in secret but he's still a pretty positive dude. He makes reference of his name 'meaning peace, too!', and honestly if you're trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes then acting like that, about his band, as opposed to just being suspicious all the time is the way to go. It also helps us see his character growth from how happy he is in PW to just how defeated he is in V. I know Ocelot hypnotized himself in V but he still goes along with the Venom Snake lie, trying to push it as fact because he, too, has something to gain from it. Besides that, PW is pretty silly anyway. I mean, you fight dinosaurs, have arguments about Santa being real and go on dates with 2 of the characters and then in the very next game you're in what is basically the equivalent of Guantanamo Bay, silly mixed with serious, a perfect Metal Gear story, lol. 

 

It's key to remember that we're playing as the bad guys in PW but the way the game frames it, it makes it all look heroic. Not to mention, as is the story after MGS2, the next game in the series wasn't planned. It's easy to see why Big Boss would eventually go off the deep end after MGS3 and PW just cements that fact, being betrayed by his 2nd in command would surely affect him mentally. As much as I love V, it's pretty unnecessary. The fact the story makes as much sense as it does after having to retroactively make sense with what came before it is pretty impressive. The series would totally benefit from a complete redo but that's never gonna happen. 

 

WTF does that phone call seriously happen in PW at some point? All I remember the final ending speech after the credits was the "This is Outer Heaven" and the "she betrayed me" speech. Wtf "my dear Zero" WHEN would he ever say that. Yeah, after reading that, his character totally changed over time. There is a tape in MGSV where Miller says again to Zero "I'm not here for you, I'm just hear to clear things up" or words to that effect, so they do make reference to a similar motive again. But as always, people change over time. Miller calls Snake a 'monster' in MG2 and it makes sense from the PW angle or what we now know from V. It's just weird that, at this point, there's 10 years in the MGS timeline unaccounted for. I'm hoping for a new cutscene in MGSV 9 years after launch, lol. Thanks for all this though. 

 

[Slava]

2 minutes ago, Lianco said:

WTF does that phone call seriously happen in PW at some point? All I remember the final ending speech after the credits was the "This is Outer Heaven" and the "she betrayed me" speech. Wtf "my dear Zero" WHEN would he ever say that. 

 

I think that's the one that unlocks after you finish every side op.

[Lianco]

1 hour ago, Alderriz said:

 

I think that's the one that unlocks after you finish every side op.

Ah, well, that explains it, certainly have NOT done those.... yet

 

Thanks, again, for your help! ?