PliskinCobra Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Haven't tried this myself but if the new update fixed it then Sony just single-handedly closed this discussion lol. Still, I heard people can connect using dns to by pass the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergen Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 The fact of the matter is, rules get added and changed all the time in other areas of life. If someone is flagged for something that isn't listed in the rules, then by default they should be unflagged as it was a flaw with this website's rules to not include it in the rules. As a member of staff for the website, you need to keep on top of things like this and alter the rules accordingly whenever new breakthroughs are found. It is misleading to the members of this website if something is flagged when no rules on the website clearly prohibited the use of that exploit to earn trophies. This in particular seems like an exploit of the email app through getting a website to send an email to you. The email app is part of the console, you open the email and the console recognises the email and allows you to use what is within the email. If you are going to flag this, you need to have a clear definition of what is right and wrong, because the email app can be used for a variety of things. What if a start-up indie game company wants members of PSN to try out their game for free and a requirement is inputting your email to receive the code, then you open the email on your PSN web browser to use that code? It should be the responsibility of Sony and whoever developed/published those games to take action against people if they feel it is necessary. This website should consider this as a "use at your own risk" kind of scenario and if this does have any negative consequences that you did not foresee then PSNProfiles will not be responsible. At the end of the day, this is a trophy website and not a subsidiary of Sony/PlayStation. People might be likely to bring up that this is against the ToS of PSN, but if you have ever boosted multiplayer trophies then you did not originally respect the ToS of PSN because it is prohibited and even Sony published games were moderated to ban people if they boosted e.g. Killzone 2. This does not require you to mod your console, use other people's save files and it can be stopped at any time. At the end of the day, if you paid for the game, you should be getting what you paid for, which is the full game experience as advertised by the game company. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APCGrayLocked Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) i'm only worried about being possibly banned from the PSN by Sony using this method. Banned from PSNProfiles and any other trophy tracking site because i've completed a game that i CANNOT buy on my store (because the devs didn't have the money to publish their game on other stores) sounds bullshit to me. It's the same situation of GoneSpy, but Gonespy has been accepted. Edited April 10, 2018 by APCGrayLocked 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gage Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 This wasn't removed, have a friend who just did it on an updated Vita. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisty123 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Personally I think Sony should just allow a few more accounts, even if it was 4 or so. One of the main reasons why it was locked way back was due to memory card size, this is no longer an issue. Anyway given this is linked to the other CFW topic(s) what will be the stance on this one will this be classed as a game getting flagged or not. Still don't think I will do it on my main account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ProfBambam55 Posted April 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, MMDE said: I wouldn't take the list of flaggable things that literally, and the reason you even went through this is because you too realize this is a gray area. You are abusing an exploit in the console to run otherwise unintended software to be run. what?...it's a new area that people are comparing to cfw...the op is asking if it will be flagged...i'm pointing out that rationally it doesn't seem to fall under current rules (and yep, that kinda makes it grey)...i'm starting to wonder if people even understand what cfw entails...apparently you think it means just running unintended software...you do know the "fw" stands for firmware, yes?...you do know how it works, yes?...and you do see that the current rules don't cover the case described here, yes?... side note : as far as I know, I haven't abused any exploit on any console on this account so not sure why I'm being singled out... and speaking of nonsense, what do you mean rules shouldn't be taken literally?...how are we supposed to take them?...abstractly?...philosophically?...emotionally?...with a grain of salt?...seems silly to have rules if they're made to be ambiguous...what's the point of even having them?... I think when using a pc is involved in performing an exploit people assume it's cfw and for some reason it seems to stir up some kind of fear and immediate negative reaction...all that is being done here is putting trophies earned onto one's main account...it's not a firmware exploit and it's really not a big deal...it doesn't speed up earning trophies, or affect their order or timestamps in any way...i don't see why it wouldn't be allowed if people have payed for and played their games legit...seems like more time and work than just playing other stuff within their region imo... if it's been patched then ideally a decision should be made on flagging cases up to this point in time... @MMDEwould you care to enlighten us as to what potential actions might be taken given the supposed ambiguity of the current rules?... for the record, even if this was a cfw exploit I'd be ok with it...i mean who really cares if people have games on their account from another region?...the trophies aren't hacked... I'm trying to understand and at the same time am quite curious : why do some people seem so offended by this?...what is it with regards to the leaderboards here that it will have a big impact on?...number of achievers?... number of owners?...rarity?...fastest achievers?...ranks?...anyone know?...i mean people will just have accounts from other regions with the same stats on them anyhow...and if leaderboard rank is the only reason people are against it then it seems kinda like it's just a pen1s envy thing which I find pretty sad... i'm guessing that if this was deemed flaggable, the people using this exploit would likely just play other stuff anyhow so I doubt there would be a massive difference in how the leaderboards are displayed...it would be odd if they thought "well psnp is gonna flag me so no more gaming for me...goodbye leaderboard rank"... something just occurred to me and I feel the need to ask to people that feel this exploit merits being flagged/banned : are the people using this vita exploit high ranked in general? ...and is this whole thing just about removing people of higher ranks from the leaderboards?... Edited April 10, 2018 by ProfBambam55 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScooloV Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 6 hours ago, ProfBambam55 said: let's have a look at this for a sec and analyze the situation with regards to this vita exploit... Hacked lobbies, hacking, or exploits performed via external means (outside of the game as created) are flaggable. Is this exploit? Definitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergen Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, ScooloV said: Hacked lobbies, hacking, or exploits performed via external means (outside of the game as created) are flaggable. Is this exploit? Definitely. But so is setting up a remote play macro and using it to automate button presses, yet nobody has been flagged for that and threads even promote using that, it's an exploit performed via external means. xLinkKai and Gonespy are allowed by this website currently. I don't know why you're salty about this if it means you can finish off your Guilty Gear collection legitimately on vita like you expressed previously. In real life, nobody gets convicted in a court of law if the law didn't exist or wasn't fully explained in a clear way. There are thousands of laws out there because they need to think of everything to have sufficient evidence to provide a conviction. If this website wants to flag people for something, they need to explain everything in a clear way, not in a loose and assumed way, people perceive things differently at times, so they should be written in a way that everyone can understand without having to create a thread to question it. Because a rule for this doesn't currently exist, if someone uses it and provides evidence (the vita has the option to take screenshots of trophies), they should be unflagged by default if someone takes the time to flag them. Edited April 10, 2018 by Sergen 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
det_gittes Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, Sergen said: In real life, nobody gets convicted in a court of law if the law didn't exist or wasn't fully explained in a clear way. There are thousands of laws out there because they need to think of everything to have sufficient evidence to provide a conviction. If this website wants to flag people for something, they need to explain everything in a clear way, not in a loose and assumed way, people perceive things differently at times, so they should be written in a way that everyone can understand without having to create a thread to question it. I've seen it mentioned before (in trophy disputes) that the rules of law are not applicable on PSNP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, ScooloV said: Hacked lobbies, hacking, or exploits performed via external means (outside of the game as created) are flaggable. Is this exploit? Definitely. I don't know why but I don't see this in the "things that are flaggable"...i think I must be blind...are you quoting that from here?... and if not, are there multiple threads for flag rules?... edit : found it...it was under "boosting" in "things that are not flaggable"...odd place for it...which brings us to opinions on using external means to earn trophies vs to transfer legit trophies from one account to another owned by the same person...not much different than creating multiple regions accounts using false information...where do people get the data to create false addresses in foreign countries?...just make 'em up?...external.means...haha...flag' em all... no idea why you're so against it...care to enlighten us?... Edited April 10, 2018 by ProfBambam55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergen Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 1 minute ago, det_gittes said: I've seen it mentioned before (in trophy disputes) that the rules of law are not applicable on PSNP But if you're going to have a set of rules, then they need to be clearly defined and as new things are discovered that could exploit trophies, the rules need to be updated accordingly whenever a new discovery is made. If you flag someone and the reason for flagging them is not something that is against the rules, because the rule doesn't exist then they shouldn't remain flagged. It is the responsibility of staff for this website to give people a clear set of rules if they want to flag someone for doing something to get trophies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
det_gittes Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sergen said: But if you're going to have a set of rules, then they need to be clearly defined and as new things are discovered that could exploit trophies, the rules need to be updated accordingly whenever a new discovery is made. If you flag someone and the reason for flagging them is not something that is against the rules, because the rule doesn't exist then they shouldn't remain flagged. It is the responsibility of staff for this website to give people a clear set of rules if they want to flag someone for doing something to get trophies. If my understanding is correct, people using the exploit described by the OP may not be committing a flaggable offense now, but if the rules are - as you say - "updated accordingly", the games played using the email trick may fall into the flaggable category in the future - which in a major way differs from how the law is applied - it does not work backward (AFAIK at least). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, det_gittes said: If my understanding is correct, people using the exploit described by the OP may not be committing a flaggable offense now, but if the rules are - as you say - "updated accordingly", the games played using the email trick may fall into the flaggable category in the future - which in a major way differs from how the law is applied - it does not work backward (AFAIK at least). I think that's the point here...it seems to fall outside current rules so the op is asking if this will warrant a flag or not...it might be good to update the flag rules if this can be flagged...if not, there's no reason to do anything...life here can just go on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergen Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 27 minutes ago, det_gittes said: If my understanding is correct, people using the exploit described by the OP may not be committing a flaggable offense now, but if the rules are - as you say - "updated accordingly", the games played using the email trick may fall into the flaggable category in the future - which in a major way differs from how the law is applied - it does not work backward (AFAIK at least). If a rule is made, but people already use it, people who started doing this after the rule was applied to the website should be flagged, but people who did it when it wasn't a rule on this website shouldn't be flagged. Making a thread like this avoids people being flagged out of nowhere and having to dispute their flag. Disputes are always assumed guilt and I've seen plenty of people be witch-hunted by others who have no idea about a lot of games and those people present commonly acquired time stamps and say "you did those trophies too fast" because they're not aware of alternative methods for some trophies. Either way, when there's no rule, there's no indication that what the person just did was something that would result in them being flagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shadiochao Posted April 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, Sergen said: If a rule is made, but people already use it, people who started doing this after the rule was applied to the website should be flagged, but people who did it when it wasn't a rule on this website shouldn't be flagged. The point of flagging is to remove things that aren't wanted on the leaderboards. People have been flagged for things that happened before the site even existed. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergen Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Just now, Shadiochao said: The point of flagging is to remove things that aren't wanted on the leaderboards. People have been flagged for things that happened before the site even existed. But currently, it is not clear if this is allowed to remain on the leaderboards or not. People are aware that using a save file to auto-unlock trophies is wrong and this website can prosecute for that, as this isn't the first website that flagged people for doing that, YourGamerCards.net existed before this website and was flagging people before this website existed. But the thing is, now that there is an established set of rules for people to refer to whenever they engage in activity regarding trophies, if it isn't a rule on the website then the person shouldn't be flagged for doing it. It would be unfair to flag someone for something they did that wasn't within the rules and if you want to dictate what should and shouldn't be allowed on the website then that needs to be thought of in the set of rules. Aside from that, there's no disclaimer in the rule set like "refrain from using any means that have not yet been explored in the rules, you put yourself at risk of being flagged at a later date if we consider it as a flaggable offence". If this website wants to flag people for something, everything that could possibly constitute a flag must be mentioned, otherwise people are being mislead when they do something and think "there's nothing telling me I can't do this" and that should be grounds to dispute a flag that happens when the website currently exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shadiochao Posted April 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sergen said: But currently, it is not clear if this is allowed to remain on the leaderboards or not. People are aware that using a save file to auto-unlock trophies is wrong and this website can prosecute for that, as this isn't the first website that flagged people for doing that, YourGamerCards.net existed before this website and was flagging people before this website existed. But the thing is, now that there is an established set of rules for people to refer to whenever they engage in activity regarding trophies, if it isn't a rule on the website then the person shouldn't be flagged for doing it. It would be unfair to flag someone for something they did that wasn't within the rules and if you want to dictate what should and shouldn't be allowed on the website then that needs to be thought of in the set of rules. Aside from that, there's no disclaimer in the rule set like "refrain from using any means that have not yet been explored in the rules, you put yourself at risk of being flagged at a later date if we consider it as a flaggable offence". If this website wants to flag people for something, everything that could possibly constitute a flag must be mentioned, otherwise people are being mislead when they do something and think "there's nothing telling me I can't do this" and that should be grounds to dispute a flag that happens when the website currently exists. I feel like you're treating this as if it were actually taking place in a courtroom. How this turns out is entirely down to what Sly wants for his site. If he doesn't want this to be on the leaderboards, then it can be removed whether or not anybody had sufficient warning or if there was a precedent. The same goes for all current and future trophy tracking sites, who will have to make their own decisions on this. But I feel a precedent has been set for this sort of thing. This requires using third-party software to unlock trophies that would never have been possible to unlock otherwise. That summary could also be applied to CFW, and we all know that isn't allowed. And if you want to be really pedantic about it, it also involves using another account's save files and trophy data. This particular method just hasn't been directly addressed because it wasn't known about until now. If it does end up being considered unacceptable I don't think anybody should be surprised. I don't agree with allowing illegitimate trophies on the leaderboards just because the rules weren't specific enough at the time. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergen Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 11 minutes ago, Shadiochao said: I feel like you're treating this as if it were actually taking place in a courtroom. How this turns out is entirely down to what Sly wants for his site. If he doesn't want this to be on the leaderboards, then it can be removed whether or not anybody had sufficient warning or if there was a precedent. The same goes for all current and future trophy tracking sites, who will have to make their own decisions on this. But I feel a precedent has been set for this sort of thing. This requires using third-party software to unlock trophies that would never have been possible to unlock otherwise. That summary could also be applied to CFW, and we all know that isn't allowed. And if you want to be really pedantic about it, it also involves using another account's save files and trophy data. This particular method just hasn't been directly addressed because it wasn't known about until now. If it does end up being considered unacceptable I don't think anybody should be surprised. I don't agree with allowing illegitimate trophies on the leaderboards just because the rules weren't specific enough at the time. A simple solution would be a disclaimer in the rules that states “If you are unsure about whether something is against the rules, you can contact one of the following staff members to see what they have to say” and how at those staff members so people know who to ask. When it isn’t a rule that had been explained in the rules, people can simply assume that it won’t be flagged as it doesn’t fall under “things that are flaggable”. Maybe they could assume that the website covered all the ground previously and has only ever declared the things under “things that are flaggable” as the things that can specifically get them flagged. Without clear indication or disclaimers in the rules, people won’t know that what they’re doing is going to be flagged. As what people look to as an authority in regards to trophy tracking, the rules need to be clear to anyone who wants to participate the leaderboards. Profiles don’t have any public explanation of why a profile is flagged, so people who CFW, use saves or use online exploits are all put in the same category which immediately makes people think they’re a cheater. It’s not cheating to play a game legit just because you used an email on your vita to allow to switch the account of the vita and sync the trophies. People are naturally curious so it’s likely if a person is flagged for doing this, they’ll be asked questions and they’ll say “I was flagged because I got an email sent to me on my vita to allow me to play a region locked game on my account.” I personally won’t be using this but I can see why some people would like to. If anything, it helps companies that were unable to put their games on a different PSN store because it gives some people an incentive to buy their games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PliskinCobra Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 If one day I decide to use this, it will not be for playing games from other region, I would borrow digital games from my friend's account (same region) instead and it would be completely undetectable. This is gray zone indeed. I don't want to write a research paper to discuss this so just put it simple, I think it will benefit the site more than bringing problems. CFW user already can pirate whatever games for free, even edit trophy timestamp. Detecting CFW user using region locked games is just a drop a pool, while I believe it will give more benefit for legit Vita users to have access to bigger (and much needed) games library from other regions. Leaderboard is all about legit trophies. If it's earned legitimately through normal playing, why shouldn't it be allowed. It's not like user was trying to manipulate the trophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMDE Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 5 hours ago, ProfBambam55 said: and speaking of nonsense, what do you mean rules shouldn't be taken literally?...how are we supposed to take them?...abstractly?...philosophically?...emotionally?...with a grain of salt?...seems silly to have rules if they're made to be ambiguous...what's the point of even having them?... It's meant as guidance... And you'd be able to get these trophies: https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/5628-rodem-the-wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegirlruka Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 I can confirm it's still possible to do on the latest firmware. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMDE Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sergen said: It’s not cheating to play a game legit just because you used an email on your vita to allow to switch the account of the vita and sync the trophies. Just to be clear Sergen, if you want to convince someone, you should probably try to talk about what people got an issue with. Neglecting to even mention it just makes you look a bit dishonest, and it's definitely not convincing. The part people have an issue with is that you're abusing an exploit in the console to run software not intended to be run (at least not this way), and on top of that you're also taking advantage of an exploit in the console that allow you to transfer unsynced trophies earned on one user to another. 1 hour ago, PliskinCobra said: This is gray zone indeed. I don't want to write a research paper to discuss this so just put it simple, I think it will benefit the site more than bringing problems. Does the site benefit from people feeling like they need to do this to stay competitive? What happens when the exploit is closed? Edited April 10, 2018 by MMDE 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kittens Are Awesome Posted April 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 10, 2018 Ugh. I can't believe this is still a hot topic. If there was a game I really wanted to play but it was only available in another region, you bet your sweet junie cakes I'd do this method to play it on my vita. The leaderboards on trophy sites are such a joke/fraud/usless. If Sly ever gave us the option to be removed from the lbs and have an indicator on our main profile showing we did so voluntarily, I'd jump on that shit in a heartbeat. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMDE Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Phil said: Ugh. I can't believe this is still a hot topic. If there was a game I really wanted to play but it was only available in another region, you bet your sweet junie cakes I'd do this method to play it on my vita. The leaderboards on trophy sites are such a joke/fraud/usless. If Sly ever gave us the option to be removed from the lbs and have an indicator on our main profile showing we did so voluntarily, I'd jump on that shit in a heartbeat. You don't need to do this to play games from another region on your Vita. No exploit needed for this, at all. Just use another user on the Vita. The problem is that you can only have one user on the Vita, so you can't do like on PS3 and PS4 and download a digital game from another region on another account and then play it on your main account. You can still play it on that other account, but because you can't play it on your main, you won't get the trophies. You can already play the games, you just won't earn trophies for it on your main account without doing this exploit of transferring trophies earned on one account to another. In other words, this discussion is not about if you can play the games, but if you can earn trophies for it on your main account. I can do you the favor of removing you from the leaderboards if you want? Just give me the go, and you'll be off. Edited April 10, 2018 by MMDE 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PliskinCobra Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, MMDE said: Does the site benefit from people feeling like they need to do this to stay competitive? What happens when the exploit is closed? Competitive is minority, someone can use this to buy and stack a bunch of JP-only visual novel but most people who support this just simply want to be able to play games from other account using their main account (be it for region locked games or game sharing). The exploit is not common knowledge and it looks quite sketchy at first so everyone who does it have to understand the risk it carries, it is their own fault if one day the exploit is fixed or even get banned by Sony (unlikely but it's still a possibility). What I think we can do is allowing but not promoting this, let people who really want to do this find out themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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