gamesfourever

What determines if a DLC is owned?

51 posts in this topic

So, you know how you can always see on a games trophy list how many DLC owners exist for that DLC? may it be actual DLC or an Update. How is this determined? It would make sense if it would detect one of those trophies from the DLC as earned and then count it as Owned DLC. However, this makes no sense for at least update DLCs as far as I can tell. Here's an example of the game LET IT DIE which has a DLC with 1 trophy. This was an update that cant be turned down as you must update this game to the most recent version in order to play it. which aroused my curiosity and motivation to start this thread. And this mission that is required is also available at the start of the game (although you can't complete it before endgame) so it's not like Sony can somehow check if you accepted the quest or not. 
And what about DLC trophies that can be earned even though a player does not own the DLC? such as when playing multiplayer and obtaining DLC trophies that way or simply DLC trophies that can be obtained in singleplayer regardless of whenever the DLC is purchased and downloaded or not. How do they affect the DLC Owners counter?

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You are registered as an owner once you get a trophy on that DLC

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Posted (edited)

ninja'd:ninja:
 you need to have earned a trophy in the dlc.

Edited by Leenewbe
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Posted (edited)

DLC owners are indead counted as all those people who have earned any trophy.  In your example (let it die) you can see if you click on the trophy it has been earned 39 times and the dlc owner count on the game page is 39. It makes no difference if you have bought the dlc or obtained the trophy via other means.  Some people have argued that if the dlc is available to everyone then the dlc owner count should be equal to the game owner count but that isn't currently the case.

 The rarity is calculated based on a formula that can be found somewhere in this forum.  

Edited by aerosol_grey
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Posted (edited)

Earning a trophy for the DLC for it to count you as an owner doesn't quite seem like the only explanation. Take a look at a game with DLC (I'm looking at Fallout 4 right now) and find the most common trophy for a given DLC. The earners for that trophy and the number of owners for that DLC never matches up (it might for some games, but I'm guessing this isn't usually the case). Sure, they're pretty close, but not exact. And, if I recall correctly, before the change in the formula for DLC rarity percentages, the most common DLC trophy usually didn't show as 100%.

 

So does anyone know why there is a disparity here? 🤔

Edited by Jay_Cash
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2 minutes ago, Jay_Cash said:

Earning a trophy for the DLC for it to count you as an owner doesn't quite seem like the only explanation. Take a look at a game with DLC (I'm looking at Fallout 4 right now) and find the most common trophy for a given DLC. The earners for that trophy and the number of owners for that DLC never matches up (it might for some games, but I'm guessing this isn't usually the case). Sure, they're pretty close, but not exact. And, if I recall correctly, before the change in the formula for DLC rarity percentages, the most common DLC trophy usually didn't show as 100%.

 

So does anyone know why there is a disparity here? 1f914.png

 

Just because there's a trophy that's most common doesn't mean that's the first trophy everyone earns for that DLC. Fallout isn't a good example for that because all the DLC has things you can do before other things. 

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1 minute ago, Gage said:

 

Just because there's a trophy that's most common doesn't mean that's the first trophy everyone earns for that DLC. Fallout isn't a good example for that because all the DLC has things you can do before other things. 

Oof. I way overlooked that fact lol. Thanks.

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PSN just says you "own" the DLC if you've played the game. @Sly Ripper, I don't think "owners" is the right word. It should be "players". People who has played the game. I and many others own a lot of games we haven't played, and we don't count before we play it.

 

As for DLC on PSNP, you gotta have earned a trophy in the DLC to count, but some extra math between the number of players who has earned a trophy in the DLC and the total amount of players of the game is done, so you get a more "fair" amount.

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I don't like this system, because it's not accurate. For example in Gems of War there's a trophy for level 100 (10% rarity), and 'DLC' trophies (which were just free updates for the game) for level 250 (15%) and 500 (9%). How is level 250 more common than level 100? PSN itself shows these trophies' rarity more accurate at 5.3%, 1.6% and 0.8%.

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I may be missing something, but this DLC shows 354 owners, and 351 people have the first trophy, yet it's only 22%. 🤔

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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, SuperZay said:

I don't like this system, because it's not accurate. For example in Gems of War there's a trophy for level 100 (10% rarity), and 'DLC' trophies (which were just free updates for the game) for level 250 (15%) and 500 (9%). How is level 250 more common than level 100? PSN itself shows these trophies' rarity more accurate at 5.3%, 1.6% and 0.8%.

 

Just because they own it, doesn't mean they've played it.

 

1 minute ago, SunnyCrappyYT said:

I may be missing something, but this DLC shows 354 owners, and 351 people have the first trophy, yet it's only 22%. 🤔

 

Yeah, the rarity has some extra math added to it.

 

 

Edited by MMDE
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3 minutes ago, MMDE said:

Yeah, the rarity has some extra math added to it.

 

 

Just saw Kittet's link. Thanks though. I've been wondering about this for a while now, so it's nice to know. :) 

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1 hour ago, SuperZay said:

I don't like this system, because it's not accurate. For example in Gems of War there's a trophy for level 100 (10% rarity), and 'DLC' trophies (which were just free updates for the game) for level 250 (15%) and 500 (9%). How is level 250 more common than level 100? PSN itself shows these trophies' rarity more accurate at 5.3%, 1.6% and 0.8%.

 

If you consider the rarity to mean "number of people who achieved the trophy / number of people who attempted to achieve the trophy", there is no reason that the level 250 trophy should be rarer than the level 100 trophy. It's possible that out of the people who went on to play beyond level 100, a higher proportion made it to level 250 (compared to the proportion of base game players making it to level 100).The only thing you can say for sure is that there should be fewer total achievers of the level 250 trophy.

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Imho if the DLC counts towards the Completion rate, all players who own the game should be part of the trophy rarity rate, not only those who earn a trophy.

Take a look at Gems of War DLC. They sound all easy considering their rates... I don’t own a lot of DLC in my games and they’re still killing my completion rate.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, SuperZay said:

I don't like this system, because it's not accurate. For example in Gems of War there's a trophy for level 100 (10% rarity), and 'DLC' trophies (which were just free updates for the game) for level 250 (15%) and 500 (9%). How is level 250 more common than level 100? PSN itself shows these trophies' rarity more accurate at 5.3%, 1.6% and 0.8%.

 

DLC trophies used to be calculated in way that essentially counted rarity within the DLC set, so you had a lot of cases where a trophy in a DLC set had 100% common rarity, which didn't make sense (Such as The Last of Us difficulty-related DLC trophies being at 100% and 75% very common). Before that it just relied on base game owners, and since a lot of people didn't play the DLC you ended up with a ton of easy trophies which had an ultra rare rating. We now use what's called "geometric mean" which considers amount of owners, base game owners, and so on.

 

Basically the way it is now is because we at first had rarity set like you said, and people determined that didn't work too well, then we relied it on just the DLC on its own (So the percentages you're talking about would probably be 50%+ instead of like 15%), then we moved to "Geometric Mean" which works a lot better overall except in very specific situations such as those specific Gems of War trophies, but you're going to have that every now and again :dunno:

 

DLC rarity has been a continuing point of discussion for years and we are now on our third iteration of DLC rarities. This is the most agreed upon one we've had and if I were a betting man I would say it wouldn't be going back to the original one where most DLC trophies were ultra rare, or the second version we had where most DLC trophies were common. Basically, this way has it's oddities like with Gems of War but those oddities are for more rare than the first or second way it was done

Edited by BlindMango
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2 hours ago, MMDE said:

PSN just says you "own" the DLC if you've played the game. @Sly Ripper, I don't think "owners" is the right word. It should be "players". People who has played the game. I and many others own a lot of games we haven't played, and we don't count before we play it.

I agree but I don't know if "players" is the right word either. The front page has players listed under the "Popular Games This Week" showing how many individual people are playing a particular game that week. That basically defines players as people currently playing while the DLC owner list would be the count of how many people own as a whole it rather than currently playing it. If you use the same language of "players" it could be confusing to other people.  

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1 hour ago, skateak said:

I agree but I don't know if "players" is the right word either. The front page has players listed under the "Popular Games This Week" showing how many individual people are playing a particular game that week. That basically defines players as people currently playing while the DLC owner list would be the count of how many people own as a whole it rather than currently playing it. If you use the same language of "players" it could be confusing to other people.  

 

Should say "recent players" or something there.

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1 hour ago, TurtlePM said:

Imho if the DLC counts towards the Completion rate, all players who own the game should be part of the trophy rarity rate, not only those who earn a trophy.

Take a look at Gems of War DLC. They sound all easy considering their rates... I don’t own a lot of DLC in my games and they’re still killing my completion rate.

 

Let's say you own a game, but haven't played it, should you count towards the stats?

 

Likewise, you shouldn't count towards the stats of a DLC when you've only played the game, even if you own the DLC.

 

You get absurd cases like, should everyone with PS+ considered as owning this month's PS+ game?

 

Should everyone with a PS4 game on their profile be considered as an owner of a free to play PS4 game? What about those cases where the game is free to play and available on PS3, Vita and PS4?

 

And if you want to say they have the potential to play the game, you got that too by owning the console, and if you don't, you can buy that too.

 

Really, what you want is:

(how many who has earned a trophy) / (how many who has played what can give you the trophy)

or:

(realized) / (potential)

 

Honestly, I expect DLC trophies to be more common than base game trophies. Why? Well, if someone goes ahead and buys DLCs, they are already more invested in the game and is more likely to complete it.

 

There's no way to confirm someone has played a DLC unless they've earned a trophy in it.

 

And sure, you're going to show me a trophy list where all the trophies are difficult from a free DLC. Those are few and far between, and is the result of not wanting to invent numbers. As BlindMango pointed out, the system you suggest makes almost all DLC trophies ultra rare or very rare, pretty much ruining the rarity classification. And we know well why this happens, it's because in the vast majority of the cases, far less people have played or even bought the DLCs, and so it goes against the main idea of the rarity classification.

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13 hours ago, MMDE said:

PSN just says you "own" the DLC if you've played the game. @Sly Ripper, I don't think "owners" is the right word. It should be "players". People who has played the game. I and many others own a lot of games we haven't played, and we don't count before we play it.

 

As for DLC on PSNP, you gotta have earned a trophy in the DLC to count, but some extra math between the number of players who has earned a trophy in the DLC and the total amount of players of the game is done, so you get a more "fair" amount.

Players would be a more apt term to use.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, MMDE said:

 

Let's say you own a game, but haven't played it, should you count towards the stats?

 

Likewise, you shouldn't count towards the stats of a DLC when you've only played the game, even if you own the DLC.

 

You get absurd cases like, should everyone with PS+ considered as owning this month's PS+ game?

 

Should everyone with a PS4 game on their profile be considered as an owner of a free to play PS4 game? What about those cases where the game is free to play and available on PS3, Vita and PS4?

 

And if you want to say they have the potential to play the game, you got that too by owning the console, and if you don't, you can buy that too.

 

Really, what you want is:

(how many who has earned a trophy) / (how many who has played what can give you the trophy)

or:

(realized) / (potential)

 

Honestly, I expect DLC trophies to be more common than base game trophies. Why? Well, if someone goes ahead and buys DLCs, they are already more invested in the game and is more likely to complete it.

 

There's no way to confirm someone has played a DLC unless they've earned a trophy in it.

 

And sure, you're going to show me a trophy list where all the trophies are difficult from a free DLC. Those are few and far between, and is the result of not wanting to invent numbers. As BlindMango pointed out, the system you suggest makes almost all DLC trophies ultra rare or very rare, pretty much ruining the rarity classification. And we know well why this happens, it's because in the vast majority of the cases, far less people have played or even bought the DLCs, and so it goes against the main idea of the rarity classification.

 

Actually, DLC that I don’t own are shown in my profile, count as a game and affects my completion stats. The true completion rate is show in the Stats tab, where all rates are together and divided by the total number of games started.

 

If I have modnation racers base game and no DLC owned, my stats count 4 games, not 1 like it should. That’s why all DLC rates should be divided by the total numbers of owners.

 

This opinion of mine is more about Free updates, like Gems of War. Everyone has access to them. But it’s nothing that PSNProfiles staff can do about it...

 

Edited by TurtlePM
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Posted (edited)

30 minutes ago, TurtlePM said:

 

Actually, DLC that I don’t own are shown in my profile, count as a game and affects my completion stats. The true completion rate is show in the Stats tab, where all rates are together and divided by the total number of games started.

 

If I have modnation racers base game and no DLC owned, my stats count 4 games, not 1 like it should. That’s why all DLC rates should be divided by the total numbers of owners.

 

This opinion of mine is more about Free updates, like Gems of War. Everyone has access to them. But it’s nothing that PSNProfiles staff can do about it...

 

 

It's unfortunate the DLC list is added automatically, but it goes against the idea of the rarity to count player of base game as player of the DLC too. Why? Well, you're counting people who hasn't necessarily played the content the trophies are for, while the idea is to see how many has earned the trophies from the content out of how many who has played the content.

Edited by MMDE
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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

It's unfortunate the DLC list is added automatically, but it goes against the idea of the rarity to count player of base game as player of the DLC too. Why? Well, you're counting people who hasn't played the content the trophies are for, while the idea is to see how many has earned the trophies from the content out of how many who has played the content.

 

Correct, but if you own the DLC it won’t count as an owner until you get the trophy. Games with 0% count.

But sure, PSNP system can’t detect such thing.

 

@Gage

However, we are talking about “earning one trophy to count” but it’s not true. Shovel knight DLC has only 2 trophies: complete the game and complete all feats. At least the first one should be 100% if that was the case, because you need to complete the game at least once to get some feats.

 

Maybe the DLC owners is based on the total of “recent players” from the first DLC release date.

Edited by TurtlePM
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28 minutes ago, TurtlePM said:

 

Correct, but if you own the DLC it won’t count as an owner until you get the trophy. Games with 0% count.

But sure, PSNP system can’t detect such thing.

 

@Gage

However, we are talking about “earning one trophy to count” but it’s not true. Shovel knight DLC has only 2 trophies: complete the game and complete all feats. At least the first one should be 100% if that was the case, because you need to complete the game at least once to get some feats.

 

Maybe the DLC owners is based on the total of “recent players” from the first DLC release date.

 

As said some few times in this thread, some extra math is done after that, to "guess" it to be closer to the players of the game.

 

 

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2 hours ago, TurtlePM said:

 

 

@Gage

However, we are talking about “earning one trophy to count” but it’s not true. Shovel knight DLC has only 2 trophies: complete the game and complete all feats. At least the first one should be 100% if that was the case, because you need to complete the game at least once to get some feats.

 

Maybe the DLC owners is based on the total of “recent players” from the first DLC release date.

 

Shovel Knight if you look at the owners on the first dlc then the achiever number for that first trophy they're the same, as you'd have to earn that trophy before the other so every person who's earned it is counted. Second dlc is one off, likely due to someone hacking the second trophy. 

 

Rarity is based on geometric mean like is explained in that thread MMDE linked, as it gets a "better balance" between the two extremes when rarities were basing it on overall game owners or only "dlc owners". 

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