What determines if a DLC is owned?

[Se7en]

12 hours ago, MMDE said:

Let's say you own a game, but haven't played it, should you count towards the stats?

 

Likewise, you shouldn't count towards the stats of a DLC when you've only played the game, even if you own the DLC.

 

With that kind of logic DLCs shouldn’t also affect game completion percentage. For example, if I haven’t touched any Uncharted 2/3 multiplayer DLCs on PS3, platinum trophies should give me S rank and 100% completion then

Otherwise it is inconsistent: currently I’m not counted towards stats of a DLC I haven’t played, but a DLC I haven’t played counts towards my stats.

[Gr4de_04]

@Sly Ripper I've read the comment in this/my thread and I didn't expect to get so many comments. As suggested by others. the Owners Classification should indeed be rephrased to Players or something along those lines as in a lot of cases the DLC lists are part of a free update, or the trophies can be earned without owning the DLC at all. maybe its just a minor thing but it would eradicate a lot of confusion.

Also, I'd suggest that games that require an online connection to be played as well as the most recent update in order to play (such as LET IT DIE) or other online multiplayer games should have their rarity for trophies measured as if the player count for DLC trophy lists is the same amount of main game players. Although i'm not sure how difficult it is to implement this, or to categorize it. Since you can't just check if every game ever works this way or not. Same goes for games with partially free and partially paid DLCs. Please let us know what you think. I'd think it be a positive change.

[mekktor]

37 minutes ago, gamesfourever said:

Also, I'd suggest that games that require an online connection to be played as well as the most recent update in order to play (such as LET IT DIE) or other online multiplayer games should have their rarity for trophies measured as if the player count for DLC trophy lists is the same amount of main game players. Although i'm not sure how difficult it is to implement this, or to categorize it. Since you can't just check if every game ever works this way or not. Same goes for games with partially free and partially paid DLCs. Please let us know what you think. I'd think it be a positive change.

 

Are you saying that because the game requires you to have the DLC installed in order to play it, that all players should be counted as DLC owners? What about people who played the game before the DLC was released? Should they be counted as having attempted the DLC trophies when it comes to calculating the rarity? Apologies if I misunderstood what you're saying - I'm not familiar with that game.

 

By the way, you might be interested in this thread. It's not up to date but it's got some good info in it:

[TheYuriG]

Was going to link my thread, but ended up not doing it because of the shameless plug. I do agree that this should be somewhat changed for the free dlc updates and what not. I feel like geometrical works fine for the rest.

[dmland12]

2 hours ago, Se7en said:

Otherwise it is inconsistent: currently I’m not counted towards stats of a DLC I haven’t played, but a DLC I haven’t played counts towards my stats.

 

Since the DLC rarity is currently based on the geometric mean of the DLC owners and base game owners, you are currently counted toward the stats of the DLC if you played the base game.  You won't show up as an owner of the DLC, but you'll lower the rarity of the DLC trophies in the background calculation.

 

So, it's at least more consistent now and the rarities look better than they did before.  Grounded mode in The Last of Us Remastered isn't at 100% rarity any more just as one example.

 

37 minutes ago, gamesfourever said:

Also, I'd suggest that games that require an online connection to be played as well as the most recent update in order to play (such as LET IT DIE) or other online multiplayer games should have their rarity for trophies measured as if the player count for DLC trophy lists is the same amount of main game players. Although i'm not sure how difficult it is to implement this, or to categorize it. Since you can't just check if every game ever works this way or not. Same goes for games with partially free and partially paid DLCs. Please let us know what you think. I'd think it be a positive change.

 

Perhaps there could be some more tweaking on a case by case basis.  For games that come with all of the DLC built-in or have free updates, especially.  It would be possible to get the rarity for those trophies more in-line with the rest of the game.  But, it also sounds like a real pain to keep track of and balance.  I'm not volunteering. 

 

Also, I'm pretty sure there's no pleasing everyone on this.  Personally, I just want the DLC rarity and base game rarity to be somewhat comparable and the current system does that more or less.  It could be better.  Others really don't like the idea that it's not just a straight calculation of trophies earned divided by the number of people that you can prove have played the DLC (by earning at least one trophy in it).

[HelsingsV]

I think the site does not recognize it if you have bought a slc but have never gotten a trophy in it

[NutellaOrgies]

The free update games where it adds DLC trophies should stay the same way it is now. 

 

The only thing I feel like should change is Remastered games or GOTY games with their own trophy list.

 

All the DLC is released already and on the disc, so the DLC for those games should count because you know the base games owners and the dlc owners are the same 

[TurtlePM]

8 minutes ago, NutellaOrgies said:

The free update games where it adds DLC trophies should stay the same way it is now. 

 

The only thing I feel like should change is Remastered games or GOTY games with their own trophy list.

 

All the DLC is released already and on the disc, so the DLC for those games should count because you know the base games owners and the dlc owners are the same 

 

Whats the difference between a Remastered version and a Game with free DLC from patches? They both have free DLC.

 

Doom, Warframe, Gems of War - they all have free DLC trophies, unlocking naturally by playing the game. There’s no difference from Remastered versions.

[Se7en]

57 minutes ago, dmland12 said:

Since the DLC rarity is currently based on the geometric mean of the DLC owners and base game owners, you are currently counted toward the stats of the DLC if you played the base game.  You won't show up as an owner of the DLC, but you'll lower the rarity of the DLC trophies in the background calculation.

Yes, as a base game player I indirectly affect rarity of DLC trophies through sophisticated math formula. On the other hand, when it come to calculating individual stats PSNP decides to count all DLC trophies as if I own every DLC for every game I played, which affects directly my games and overall completion percentage, average completion, game ranks, etc.

 

57 minutes ago, dmland12 said:

So, it's at least more consistent now and the rarities look better than they did before.  Grounded mode in The Last of Us Remastered isn't at 100% rarity any more just as one example.

Yet, according to PSNP, Grounded mode is three times more common than Survivor, which looks especially bizarre in case of Remastered version on PS4 with every DLC built-in.

 

57 minutes ago, dmland12 said:

Also, I'm pretty sure there's no pleasing everyone on this.

There might be. TrueAchievements, for instance, allows users to select in personal settings how they would like stats to be calculated: including all DLC, only owned DLC, or without any DLC. Why not to develop and implement something similar (or even more diversified) here on PSNP and settle this DLC controversy for good?

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Se7en
typos

[NutellaOrgies]

10 minutes ago, TurtlePM said:

 

Whats the difference between a Remastered version and a Game with free DLC from patches? They both have free DLC.

 

Doom, Warframe, Gems of War - they all have free DLC trophies, unlocking naturally by playing the game. There’s no difference from Remastered versions.

 

The free dlc comes out at a later date, the person might not have the game anymore.

 

The remastered dlc is released the day the game is released and comes with it. 

[mekktor]

11 minutes ago, TurtlePM said:

 

Whats the difference between a Remastered version and a Game with free DLC from patches? They both have free DLC.

 

Doom, Warframe, Gems of War - they all have free DLC trophies, unlocking naturally by playing the game. There’s no difference from Remastered versions.

 

The obvious difference is that it's impossible to start up the Remastered version without the DLC installed. There are other differences when it comes to free DLC that affects how many of the base game owners actually play the DLC, such as how long after release it was added, whether it is added in a patch (compulsory or not), if a free purchase is required on PSN store, a one off redeemable code included with the game etc.

 

24 minutes ago, NutellaOrgies said:

The only thing I feel like should change is Remastered games or GOTY games with their own trophy list.

 

All the DLC is released already and on the disc, so the DLC for those games should count because you know the base games owners and the dlc owners are the same 

 

That depends how you define DLC "owners". Is it players who have started the game with the DLC installed? Is it players who have actually started the DLC and attempted to earn those trophies? Take Shovel Knight for example. You boot up the game and the first screen lets you select the main campaign or one of the free DLC campaigns. If you never select one of the DLC campaigns, should you be counted as someone who attempted to earn the DLC trophies (for the purposes of calculating the rarity)?

[NutellaOrgies]

4 minutes ago, mekktor said:

 

 

That depends how you define DLC "owners". Is it players who have started the game with the DLC installed? Is it players who have actually started the DLC and attempted to earn those trophies? Take Shovel Knight for example. You boot up the game and the first screen lets you select the main campaign or one of the free DLC campaigns. If you never select one of the DLC campaigns, should you be counted as someone who attempted to earn the DLC trophies (for the purposes of calculating the rarity)?

 

If it was included in the game at launch with it's own trophy list then it should be included. 

[dmland12]

Just now, Se7en said:

Yes, as a base game player I indirectly affect rarity of DLC trophies through sophisticated math formula. On the other hand, when it come to calculating individual stats PSNP decides to count all DLC trophies as if I own every DLC for every game I played, which affects directly my games and overall completion percentage, average completion, game ranks, etc.

 

Yet, according to PSNP, Grounded mode is three time more common then Survivor, which looks especially bizarre in case of Remastered version on PS4 with every DLC built-in.

 

There might be. TrueAchievements, for instance, allows users to select in personal settings how they would like stats to be calculated: including all DLC, only owned DLC, or without any DLC. Why not to develop and implement something similar (or even more diversified) here on PSNP and settle this DLC controversy for good?

 

That all sounds very argumentative like we've got some real disagreements!  But, I don't think we have.

 

(1) I only said it was incorrect that there you weren't counted toward the DLC stats and that the current system was more consistent than the previous one.  I know that it's not perfectly consistent.  It sounds like we're in basic agreement here now.  I think I'm just less concerned about how completion percentage is calculated than you are.

 

(2) I also said that the current system has rarities that looked better than before, but that they could be better.  I know they aren't perfect.  It sounds like we agree here.  After all, if Grounded mode should be rarer than Survivor, it would be even worse to go back to the old system and have it at 100%.  I don't see the disagreement here at all.  Maybe I wasn't clear?

 

(3) As for the customization options, I'm good with that.   I'll stand by the idea that you can't please everyone though.  When you say something simple like "you can't please everyone" and someone wants to argue with you over it, lol.  You know you've got someone that just wants to argue for the sake of it.  It's also a pretty good example of the sentiment itself. 

[mekktor]

10 minutes ago, NutellaOrgies said:

If it was included in the game at launch with it's own trophy list then it should be included. 

 

Ok sure, but that's such a specific situation.

 

I think you missed what I was getting at though. I was asking about it more generally so the answer could be applied to other more complicated situations too. Like this one:

 

40 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Yet, according to PSNP, Grounded mode is three times more common than Survivor, which looks especially bizarre in case of Remastered version on PS4 with every DLC built-in.

 

Should Grounded be less common than Survivor? Lets say for the PS3 version. Why?

[NamoPh]

7 hours ago, MMDE said:

 

As said some few times in this thread, some extra math is done after that, to "guess" it to be closer to the players of the game.

 

 

I'm dying to see the math that in any way explains this list:

 

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/3634-batman-arkham-knight

 

There are 11 different DLC with a single trophy each, none of them have an even similar amount of owners and the rarity ranges from 15 to 55%. A maximum of 55%. In DLC with a single trophy. When you have to have earned a trophy to be counted as an owner. Wat? ?

[Se7en]

@dmland12 Oh no, I’m not advocating to go back to the old system  After all, it suffered even more from that same inconsistency I mentioned above. On the contrary, my personal preference is number of DLC owners = number of base game owners.

And while generally speaking you can’t please literally everyone, that’s true, I believe in this particular case it might still be possible to find a way to introduce 2 (3, 4?) different options representing views of every group interested in the subject.

 

@mekktor Yes, it should. Because everyone with Grounded trophy also has Survivor trophy, but not everyone with Survivor has Grounded.

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Se7en

[mekktor]

On 08/05/2018 at 7:10 AM, Se7en said:

Yes, it should. Because everyone with Grounded trophy also has Survivor trophy, but not everyone with Survivor has Grounded.

 

Why should that make the Grounded trophy rarer though? You are talking about the absolute number of people who have earned each trophy (ie. achievers), and yes, the number of achievers should be lower for Grounded. But the rarity is a ratio of achievers to the number of people who have played the game or DLC. If the numbers who have played the game and the DLC are not the same (they aren't), then the rarity doesn't necessarily follow the order you say it should.

Edited May 8, 2018 by mekktor

[FawltyPowers]

There's no point in discussing situations where a best guess formula (Geometric) does not fit all rarity situations.

 

The site has used base game owners as DLC owners in the past, the site has also used gamers who have earned a trophy in DLC has DLC owners. Both have given extreme DLC rarity figures in contrast to the base game. Geometric has given a nice balance even though it is just a "best fit" formula.

 

The only way to know for sure who game owners are for DLC is for Sony to incorporate a flag when you install DLC. They haven't so we can only use a "best fit" strategy. If anyone can think of a better method than the three used then you're welcome to raise it, otherwise this has been discussed over and over again.

 

As for the OP's point, maybe it could be rephrased but as it's calculated via a formula I'm not sure what the correct terminology could be?

 

I also have it in the back of my head that YuriG had a thread a couple of years ago asking for games like The Last of Us Remastered to have base game owners as DLC owners due to the DLC being released with the base game. That would be a good addition for better accuracy but could be quite a change to the site for the number of games it affects?

[MMDE]

48 minutes ago, FawltyPowers said:

There's no point in discussing situations where a best guess formula (Geometric) does not fit all rarity situations.

 

The site has used base game owners as DLC owners in the past, the site has also used gamers who have earned a trophy in DLC has DLC owners. Both have given extreme DLC rarity figures in contrast to the base game. Geometric has given a nice balance even though it is just a "best fit" formula.

 

The only way to know for sure who game owners are for DLC is for Sony to incorporate a flag when you install DLC. They haven't so we can only use a "best fit" strategy. If anyone can think of a better method than the three used then you're welcome to raise it, otherwise this has been discussed over and over again.

 

As for the OP's point, maybe it could be rephrased but as it's calculated via a formula I'm not sure what the correct terminology could be?

 

I also have it in the back of my head that YuriG had a thread a couple of years ago asking for games like The Last of Us Remastered to have base game owners as DLC owners due to the DLC being released with the base game. That would be a good addition for better accuracy but could be quite a change to the site for the number of games it affects?

 

Wouldn't just be when installed, but rather, when started, which they obviously won't. Honestly, they could have made it so the DLC list wasn't added to the main list, but the reason I suspect this happens is that the earliest DLC lists weren't separated from main game at all, they were included as new trophies for the base game.

Edited May 8, 2018 by MMDE

[FawltyPowers]

5 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

Wouldn't just be when installed, but rather, when started, which they obviously won't. Honestly, they could have made it so the DLC list wasn't added to the main list, but the reason I suspect this happens is that the earliest DLC lists weren't separated from main game at all, they were included as new trophies for the base game.

 

Sorry, yes you're right, should be a start date for DLC content. I'm sure someone said on a different thread that there is an install date for the base game hence how 0% games maintain the correct position on our PSN Profile, it's a shame that also wasn't replicated for DLC content.

 

Also completely agree that DLC shouldn't be attached to the main list until you own it.

 

Definite improvements could be made from Sony's end.

[MMDE]

26 minutes ago, FawltyPowers said:

 

Sorry, yes you're right, should be a start date for DLC content. I'm sure someone said on a different thread that there is an install date for the base game hence how 0% games maintain the correct position on our PSN Profile, it's a shame that also wasn't replicated for DLC content.

 

Also completely agree that DLC shouldn't be attached to the main list until you own it.

 

Definite improvements could be made from Sony's end.

 

I think the install date refers to when the trophy list is installed.

[HellMoodCole]

deleted

Edited April 9 by HellMoodCole

[FawltyPowers]

1 hour ago, BigBossImBeamer said:

Totally understandable from a trophy hunters wiew. But why would Sony do that? If they wouldn't add it to the main list the DLCs would definitely be bought less.

 

I have my views on that but don't feel this thread is the right place for it. I was just trying to get across that you would need an install / start date on DLC content in order to obtain accurate figures.

 

Base game owners are taken from those that have installed the game and had it registered on their profile but not necessarily earned a trophy yet, it would be good if the same process could be followed with DLC.

[Extratenzy]

22 hours ago, Se7en said:

 

With that kind of logic DLCs shouldn’t also affect game completion percentage. For example, if I haven’t touched any Uncharted 2/3 multiplayer DLCs on PS3, platinum trophies should give me S rank and 100% completion then

Otherwise it is inconsistent: currently I’m not counted towards stats of a DLC I haven’t played, but a DLC I haven’t played counts towards my stats.

don't wanna be a dick but there's a difference between someone who wants to get the platinum and someone who wants to get the 100%

you can't obviously have a 100% just because you refuse or can't afford the DLC. 

 

it all comes down for personal preference.

if there's other trophies you can achieve after the plat then 100% completion isn't achievable in this case.

 

it's like life...

some people are thankful for what they have and they're ok with it and others push to the limits to let them feel thankful. 

you can't just have everyone's minds into that logic of yours (which is respected).

 

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by SniperEliteDido

[Se7en]

8 hours ago, FawltyPowers said:

The only way to know for sure who game owners are for DLC is for Sony to incorporate a flag when you install DLC.

 

This is just wishful thinking from a trophy hunter perspective. In reality Sony has clearly made their mind about DLC trophies by calculating their rarity based on total number of game players. That also perfectly coincides with another Sony’s decision to include and treat DLC trophies as part of 100% game completion. It is kinda amazing that there seems to be unconditional acceptance of the latter as is, but with regard to the former people tend to speculate how Sony should have done that differently than they did.

 

3 hours ago, SniperEliteDido said:

you can't obviously have a 100% just because you refuse or can't afford the DLC.

 

I know. Hence the smiley.

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Se7en
typo