Popular Post Undead Wolf Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) Some of you may have heard about this video going around recently by RobinGaming called 'The Naughty Dog "Agenda" - An Honest, Open Conversation'. In it, he discusses how over time, Naughty Dog's games have increasingly become ideologically driven. Even if you don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, he presents his opinions in a respectable way and doesn't attack anyone. I would absolutely recommend giving it a watch so you can come to your own conclusion. I've noticed the odd thing about Naughty Dog more recently, from the odd focus on the lesbian kiss at the E3 2018 demo that of course the "progressive" games media ate up, to the their choices for certain roles like the inexperienced host of their PSX panel, the removal of Donut Drake in Uncharted 4 (remember that?), and everything in-between. Now that I've watched the video, it has become clear to me that Naughty Dog have drastically changed. I'm not even talking about what their studio was like in the Jak & Daxter days, but even as recently as the last generation Uncharted games. I like Neil Druckmann, but seeing him treat Anita Sarkeesian with such reverence is quite frankly disturbing. Of course he and the rest of the team are capable of creating amazing games, and I'm sure The Last of Us Part II is going to be great, but I yearn for a time when they were more focused on creating fun, interesting games without the agenda behind it. Now I understand how this might be a somewhat controversial topic. Certain other forums would probably just shut this conversation down before it could occur, but I'm hoping we could have a rational discussion without insults and what not being thrown around. I know this is the internet, but is that really too much to ask? I just want to know what others think about this. Edited July 22, 2018 by Undead Wolf 36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ZireaelSan Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 I am a simple man, I see naughty dog game, I empty wallet. 43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreakon13 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) I don't find this evolution particularly odd or upsetting. When you go 4+ games into a cinematic universe like Uncharted, you need to find compelling ways to evolve the story and the characters. Which usually means starting to broach more personal topics. The Last of Us is just an extension of that idea... especially so considering a post apocalyptic tale like this usually touches on many aspects of humanity. If people are upset because they feel the lesbian kiss was shoehorned in to make the game appeal to a certain crowd... I'd say that's no better than the people upset if a game doesn't do that. Just let the creative people do their thing and don't buy it if it bothers you. The game is going to kick ass either way. EDIT: I didn't watch the video, so I'm not saying anyone here is being unreasonable or saying anything in particular. Just speaking generally. Edited July 21, 2018 by Dreakon13 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post thefourfoldroot Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) I haven't seen the video and have no time to watch it, but It's the way of the world now. Diversity of opinion is too dangerous in these days of the militant Internet and extreme "progressive" media. If you don't want your game savaged by the critics like a David Cage gamr, or by the "gamers" who like to make there voices loud, you only hire people with opinions that align with the online influencers; you release games that align with the opinions of the most vocal and vitriolic of online pressure groups; and you only criticise the people who have a live and let live attitude. This is true of ND and every other western developer. Do you not do Internet? Edit: reading through this it sounds like I'm against the depiction of lesbian kissing. Nothing could be further from the truth. I very much enjoy watching lesbians kissing. Edited July 21, 2018 by thefourfoldroot 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post linkdevivo Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 This is a GREAT video, it stems from a cool dude and is conveyed in a respectful, honest way. Why anyone in resetera would ban this is beyond me. I guess SJWs can't stand an opinion that's not their own. They preach tolerance and diversity but as soon as someone thinks differently than them, they shun, ban, insult and get outraged. 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ragnarok2887 Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 Complete and utter nonsense. If this vitriolic audience is so against games and stories telling "different" stories, then don't buy them. There is no agenda, there is no conspiracy, it is all utter, utter nonsense. Give writers the freedom to create stories and characters that they want to create and let the stories stand up for themselves. Personally I play games to experience other perspectives. I don't want to just play characters that look and sound like me. That is the beauty of games, that they allow you to see the world in which they are set from totally different viewpoints than you would typically experience. 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dreakon13 Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, linkdevivo said: They preach tolerance and diversity but as soon as someone thinks differently than them, they shun, ban, insult and get outraged. Slightly off topic, but in my many years of conversing with people on the internet... I find those who advertise themselves as being "tolerant" for no particular reason (ie. un-instigated; maybe on a profile bio) are often the least tolerant of them all. Huge red flag when I see that. Edited July 21, 2018 by Dreakon13 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shinobi Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 I can see what he's talking about. But I personally don't really see anything there myself. While I do love ND; I ultimately treat them like everyone else. If it's a game I'm interested in playing, I'll buy it. It's as simple as that. I don't buy ND games because it's ND. I buy their games because they genuinely interest me. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Barbell-Disciple Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) I can honestly say that I'm not sure these days which is the problem; the people (in this case Naughty Dog) who put these controversial scenes out there on the big screen, or the reaction to them from the media. I watched the trailor for The Last of Us Part II and thought it looked awesome. When the two girls kissed I couldn't believe how visually stunning the game looked and how on point the animations were/are. I didn't really think much of it in terms of two girls kissing, it kinda didn't even stick in my mind... Until it's all over the internet the next day, being blown way out of proportion. I'm just saying that I think a large portion of gamers are like me and don't read much into the controversy when it comes to this stuff, it's just that the internet and reach of the media these days is really, really fucking long and loud. Sidenote: I love Robin's Chanel and have followed him for years, top dude and content creator. Also, can't wait for the game, it's a day one!? Edited July 21, 2018 by Barbell-Disciple 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post nyonmyan Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 I'm not an expert on TLoU, but as far as I understand the girl has unique genetics that make her immune to zombie shrooms. And the idea that the last hope of humanity is going to carpetmunch town instead of making kids is almost offensive to me. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefourfoldroot Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, nyonmyan said: I'm not an expert on TLoU, but as far as I understand the girl has unique genetics that make her immune to zombie shrooms. And the idea that the last hope of humanity is going to carpetmunch town instead of making kids is almost offensive to me. LOL, nothing to say she isn't bi as far as I know. I did finish the game but can't really remember it, I found the gameplay boring and only the beginning of the story impactful enough to imprint itself on my memory. Besides, if she's gay she's gay. Tough luck on humanity I guess. Edited July 21, 2018 by thefourfoldroot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Radio Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Dreakon13 said: I don't find this evolution particularly odd or upsetting. When you go 4+ games into a cinematic universe like Uncharted, you need to find compelling ways to evolve the story and the characters. Which usually means starting to broach more personal topics. The Last of Us is just an extension of that idea... especially so considering a post apocalyptic tale like this usually touches on many aspects of humanity. If people are upset because they feel the lesbian kiss was shoehorned in to make the game appeal to a certain crowd... I'd say that's no better than the people upset if a game doesn't do that. Just let the creative people do their thing and don't buy it if it bothers you. The game is going to kick ass either way. EDIT: I didn't watch the video, so I'm not saying anyone here is being unreasonable or saying anything in particular. Just speaking generally. This is offending the same crowd who probably don't want transgenders to become more prominent. No different from people hating on gays over the past decade, or the scorn and torture African Americans had to go through before the Civil Rights Movement gave them as many opportunities and chances as anyone else. 56 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said: I haven't seen the video and have no time to watch it, but It's the way of the world now. Diversity of opinion is too dangerous in these days of the militant Internet and extreme "progressive" media. If you don't want your game savaged by the critics like a David Cage gamr, or by the "gamers" who like to make there voices loud, you only hire people with opinions that align with the online influencers; you release games that align with the opinions of the most vocal and vitriolic of online pressure groups; and you only criticise the people who have a live and let live attitude. This is true of ND and every other western developer. Do you not do Internet? Edit: reading through this it sounds like I'm against the depiction of lesbian kissing. Nothing could be further from the truth. I very much enjoy watching lesbians kissing. And ultimately this is what is going to help bring rise to the hivemind mentality where you cannot share an opinion unless it agrees with someone else. Then again our generation thrives off of living on the internet. Interpersonal communication is becoming less and less prevalent. 54 minutes ago, ragnarok2887 said: Complete and utter nonsense. If this vitriolic audience is so against games and stories telling "different" stories, then don't buy them. There is no agenda, there is no conspiracy, it is all utter, utter nonsense. Give writers the freedom to create stories and characters that they want to create and let the stories stand up for themselves. Personally I play games to experience other perspectives. I don't want to just play characters that look and sound like me. That is the beauty of games, that they allow you to see the world in which they are set from totally different viewpoints than you would typically experience. To live a world you will never experience in real life. Again this falls back on those people who feel others should not have an opinion unless it agrees with them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ImplyingYouCare Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 27 minutes ago, nyonmyan said: And the idea that the last hope of humanity is going to carpetmunch town instead of making kids is almost offensive to me. And the idea that someone owes the world kids and should be forced to have children purely because other people want them to is almost offensive to me. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Masamune Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 I definitely agree with the guy in the video, when the whole "politically correct" thing starts pushing the actual story to a backseat position... it's just sad (it's not like ND is the only company doing this either), imo it can only hurt games when you try to force stuff like that into the story (especially when it becomes your main advertising point). & it is pretty pathetic that you're either with them (& get labeled a SJW, PC, etc) or against them (bigot, homophobe, etc), when the subject comes up. RobinGaming's opinions are probably about as close to a middle ground as you can get on this, it was a well made video. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SkyMason Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 Yeah, this isn't going to end well ? Anyways, how about just looking at things on their own terms, as soon as you say "agenda" you've made up your mind on it. The kiss didn't phase me in the slightest, but I did find the bit where the guy was strung up and gutted particularly gratuitous - but of course, everyone goes for the obvious. These people are entitled to make any story they want, even if they had some kind of intent behind it, you'd have to be pretty dense to be caught up in that kind of rhetoric. Her being a lesbian, or at the very least bi, was already pretty much a foregone conclusion in the DLC for the first game. Where was the pitchforks then? And how is this being politically correct? Is there a right and wrong way to portray a lesbian in a videogame? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drthomys Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, ragnarok2887 said: There is no agenda, there is no conspiracy, it is all utter, utter nonsense. There's a video out there where Druckmann explicitly says it was an agenda of him to create a strong, non-sexualized female character. So they had one (which doesn't mean that it has to be a conspiracy). I don't think the kiss would be discussed as much if Ellie's partner was male. Ellie's story arc has a lot of coming-of-age vibes to it, so giving her a relationship is fitting and helps characterize her more. Left Behind pretty much outed her as gay already, so this coupled with Naughty Dog's interviews over the years should've made it clear to anyone that she's probably gonna be interested in another girl down the road. I personally couldn't care less about her being gay. She's well written and Ashley Johnson is doing a superb job voicing her, that's what's important. I also think Ellie's tattoo is a way worse design choice than any of the game's diversity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BeautifulTorment Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 What a refreshing video. I've been saying this stuff for a long time now, the same sort of agenda shows up so often in mainstream TV too and it is just so exhausting. This guy expressed a viewpoint that is probably pretty common among gamers in a very eloquent and respectful way. He earned a new fan today. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Radio Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 30 minutes ago, BeautifulTorment said: What a refreshing video. I've been saying this stuff for a long time now, the same sort of agenda shows up so often in mainstream TV too and it is just so exhausting. This guy expressed a viewpoint that is probably pretty common among gamers in a very eloquent and respectful way. He earned a new fan today. Mainstream TV takes a long time to catch up and from what I see of it it's run by old farts who don't understand the world they're living in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum_Vice Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 In TLOU1, the character Bill was gay and it was portrayed in a very sensible way. It was not a defining characteristic of the character. If you described Bill (eg bitter, lonely, resourceful) in probably up to 10 adjectives, 'gay' is not likely to be one of them because he is a well-defined and well-represented character. Why should anyone's sexuality be highlighted? There is a strong correlation between creative minds and liberal political views (specifically, views of "tolerance" (be it true tolerance or a more "pick and choose" tolerance). LBGTQAI+ social rights is a hot topic for the left at the moment, more so than when TLOU1 released, which was quite a while a go now. I wish Ellie's sexuality was not highlighted as a defining characteristic, even though I am pro-gay and generally conservative. But I will still buy the game. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mako-heart Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 3 hours ago, thefourfoldroot said: Edit: reading through this it sounds like I'm against the depiction of lesbian kissing. Nothing could be further from the truth. I very much enjoy watching lesbians kissing. cool, thanks for letting us know youre part of the problem too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Carol Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 First of all, I want to say that if the games are good, I don’t care about this “agenda”. That said, I am a fan of Naughty Dog, but I don’t follow everything they do or say obsessively. After having watched the video, I can agree that this “agenda” is becoming a bit too much and maybe even a bit ridiculous. An example of this is something that is mentioned in the video: the role of Nadine as a villain in Uncharted 4. If you played the game, you know that when you’re trying to fight her, no matter how many buttons you press, nothing happens and Drake always ends up defeated. Why? Well, Nadine is a girl and it’s politically and socially incorrect to have to beat a woman in a game. And I can even agree with this! But then don’t add a female villain/boss to your game, with certain parts of this game that only have the appearance of having gameplay, but that are merely cinematic, because there’s a character you aren’t supposed to beat! This is ridiculous and absurd! Drake can beat extremely powerful enemies (the infamous brutes); there’s no way he can’t beat a woman, no matter how strong she is! It’s good that you have these concerns, but then don’t add female bosses to your game! About the characters’ sexual orientation, I couldn’t care less about Ellie, Nadine or Chloe being lesbians. “The Last of Us” is a masterpiece and “Uncharted: The Lost Legacy” is an extremely fun and light game, that I loved playing. As a gamer, that’s all I care about. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RedRodriguez87 Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) A very eloquent video that pretty much says I don't like a thing. There was a point neat the end where he mentions "that's fine, but because the media picked up on that kiss I'm starting to get less interested". Well, that's it, isn't it? What else is there to say? Either challenge your preconceived notions, or stand aside and let those that will appreciate it play the game. And that's the core of their problem, really. it isn't the diversity of opinions your "average gamer" wants, its the fact their opinion is no longer the most important. Kinda like Spaz bringing up transgenders, gays, and poc, it's the same old song and dance of wanting to dictate and moderate when something is the correct time/way to represent what ISN'T the majority. And when they head to the internet demanding justice, and told there is none to be given, all of a sudden its forced, pandering, a liberal agenda and (if a dev refuses to back down) an attack on gamers. It's always hilarious who gamers cry about "extreme "progressive" media" in a world where lgbt+ people are still being beaten, killed and discriminated against for the act of existing. Talk about lacking perspective. Edited July 21, 2018 by RedRodriguez87 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefourfoldroot Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, mako-heart said: cool, thanks for letting us know youre part of the problem too Yes, humour is clearly a problem for people who take certain subjects to be deadly serious. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastflowdaman Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 4 hours ago, Undead Wolf said: removal of Donut Drake in the remastered collection DD remained in the remasters, there's even a trophy for completing the game with said skin for each of the 3 parts. They removed him for part 4. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NathanielJohn Posted July 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2018 37 minutes ago, GonzoWARgasm said: In TLOU1, the character Bill was gay and it was portrayed in a very sensible way. It was not a defining characteristic of the character. If you described Bill (eg bitter, lonely, resourceful) in probably up to 10 adjectives, 'gay' is not likely to be one of them because he is a well-defined and well-represented character. Why should anyone's sexuality be highlighted? I wish Ellie's sexuality was not highlighted as a defining characteristic, even though I am pro-gay and generally conservative. But I will still buy the game. Bill's sexuality wasn't highlighted because he was only in one or two chapters of the game and his sexuality was not relevant to the game or any important character's development. Just like Henry's and David's sexualities weren't explored -- they just weren't relevant, so why would they be? Who cares? Comparing that to Ellie, the game's main character, is just silly. Showing her kiss someone is not "highlighting her sexuality as a defining characteristic". It's watching a main character be a human being. A main character that we're supposed to be interested in getting to know (and whose sexuality was introduced in the DLC for TLoU 1, by the way). Nathan kissed Elena dozens of times throughout the Uncharted games. Does that make his sexuality a defining characteristic of him? Or is it only when gay people kiss that it becomes defining and not OK? 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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