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The Naughty Dog Agenda


Undead Wolf

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It's funny how much shit can be stirred by casually having a gay protagonist. I don't think they're flaunting it or anything. If she was kissing a dude in the trailer, no one would care. I'm sure her relationship to that girl will be important to the story in some way. I highly, highly doubt Ellie's sexual orientation will otherwise have any other importance to the story or be focused on in any other way other than her relationship with that girl. Sure, Naughty Dog must have made a conscience decision to make Ellie gay. But so what? 

 

All I'm getting from this is that much of society is still uncomfortable with homosexuality. If you think casually including a gay character in a story is some sort of liberal/SJW propaganda, then you really need to get the fuck over yourself.

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2 hours ago, Zolkovo said:

 

I do appreciate what you're saying but the problem is we've only played the games from Nathan Drake's point of view for most of the franchise. During that time whose to say Nadine also hasn't been knocking out Brutes or defeating mystical bosses. Everyone's assuming she's lived a mundane uneventful life but we simply do not know, and her back-story suggests otherwise.

 

Since we're all over-analysing here let's take a look at the bigger picture:

  • Let's not forget the fights between Drake and Nadine were always cut short. Even the end-game bosses have the upper-hand for the majority of the fight until nearer the end where Drake pulls something out of his ass.
  • In UC4, Drake had also been out of commission for a long time having taken up a diving career and settled down with Elena. Of course he was bound to be rusty too, whereas Nadine was still fresh from the embers of military-grade fighting.
  • In addition to the 4 years of low key life, he is 39 in UC4 whereas Nadine is in her prime (no confirmed sources but believed to be in her early 30s). She has youth on her side and even most professional fighters are lucky to be fighting close to their 40s in the real world.
  • We know from lost legacy that she is just as capable of making impossible jumps, incredible climbs etc. which I'm sure wasn't something she plucked out of thin-air but honed over many years of presumably the same kinda stuff. This clearly indicates immense upper body strength and rugged mental fortitude.

Perhaps I just find this kinda prejudice against women especially irksome as I was a Taekwondo Instructor for a long time and my girls could easily run rings around men twice their size and triple their tournament experience. A lot of it just comes down to circumstance, mind-set and technique.

 

I can see I'm not going to sway you from your stance but I respect your opinion too. I certainly know at least one woman on this very website who could handle most men on here with relative ease, regardless of their background :ninja:

 

I think games, as a very widespread form of entertainment, should use the common sense of an average person to communicate with their audience, not the common sense of a Taekwondo Instructor.

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ND said after TLoU2 reveal trailer, that the story will be focusing on Hate/revenge. Even Ellie saying at the end, that she'll find and kill every last one of them. Why?

 

Everyone was worried, that Joel is dead.

 

Ignoring the second trailer, because everyone just cared about the "buffed" woman. 

 

The E3 presentation did not start with 'the kiss', but with the confirmation, that Joel is alive ("your old man [...]"), but it seems like nobody cared about that. 

 

So why is Ellie on a rampage? What got her so upset, that she is merciless killing women and men?

 

If sth. happened to Dina, I would understand, why the main theme is about Hatred/Revenge. The kiss wouldnt be forced anymore, but would give a good reason for Ellies actions. Everyone knows, that Ellie is gay, it wouldnt make much sense, if she suddenly kissed a boy (and probably had a deeper relationship with him).

 

We could argue about the way, ND portrays that 'deeper' relationship with Dina (through a kiss), but isn't that normal, when you get closer to someone? 

 

If someone feels offended, simply ignore the game. Nobody is forced, and nobody is entitled to get a TLoU2, which only appeals to their ideals and expectations. Neil created a game, many gamers consider as a masterpiece, but one gay kiss and a buffed woman later and everyone freaks out.

 

 

 

Also, I dont join or take part on CSD-parades, but I accept their existense and let them be and dont rant about them (as long as they stay civil). And they are obviously pushing an agenda. So why is there such an outrage, when it comes to videogames?

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ND are just jumping the social bandwagon, which seems to be the Druckmann way.   The trans kid should never be hired for anything tweeting the kind of bile he/she does, but transgender is why he/she was hired, which is really poor.   The admiration Druckmann has for Saarkesian ( a talentless woman who realised she could make a living from outrage) is disappointing, but when you have employees like Blight, er, Boon (someone will get that), posting immature, insulting garbage, then it's probably not surprising.   ND certainly put the kiss out front and centre, and I do think they have an agenda, but I think that agenda is corporate rather than compassionate.   Everyone was talking about it, debates raged, but it's all PR, publicity, exposure for TLoU2...$$$$$$$$$$ Ka-ching!!  Whether that's a win-win for the LBTQFIFAFFXVR2D2 community or not I don't know, but ND and their fake surprise at the reaction will certainly be enjoying the press.

 

ND aren't stupid at all though, I'm pretty sure the kiss, the love between them, will be pivotal, as I fully expect the girl Ellie loves will either be kidnapped or outright killed, probably the latter, which will set in motion the story arc and the motivations...they've just used the scene, with little context, to illicit a public response and pander to the social trends.   TLoU was a story heavy, character driven narrative, with the gameplay as a backdrop, I'd imagine 2 will be the same so I've no objection to the kiss informing us she really loves this girl, and it's a girl because Ellie is gay, otherwise it'd have been a boy obviously, but is Ellie gay for real world social effect?  Maybe, but I don't think it impinged on the story whatsoever, and in 2 they'll likely do a very good job of presenting a young lady in love and seeking revenge or whatever for the loss of that love, gay will become irrelevant, it'll be the love of another that's important, which is how it should be.

 

I don't like a lot of the things ND have said on social media, I can't stand the immaturity of SJW nonsense, nor the seeping politicization or social propaganda which has infected just about everything well beyond gaming, but to ND's credit, I really don't think any of it has affected the quality or their games.  I finished Luke Cage season 2 the other day, and jesus h Netflix, pro-democratic, anti Trump, evil white man, poor black people tripe...I just want to watch a good show with some great music, some really hot women (Simone Missick is smoking), a cool big fella that's bulletproof and likes to tear the place up, all wrapped up in a good story.   I don't want to listen to the writers agenda, or have conveyed to me how evil we white people are, or Trump is bad etc...that's the kind of nonsense people get annoyed with.   No-one cares Ellie is gay, or someone is trans, or whatever the colour of their skin, or their faith or vote, at least the majority don't, we just don't want propaganda shoved in our faces, thankfully ND, imo, haven't done that...yet!

 

 

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59 minutes ago, RedMustang72 said:

ND are just jumping the social bandwagon, which seems to be the Druckmann way.   The trans kid should never be hired for anything tweeting the kind of bile he/she does, but transgender is why he/she was hired, which is really poor.   The admiration Druckmann has for Saarkesian ( a talentless woman who realised she could make a living from outrage) is disappointing, but when you have employees like Blight, er, Boon (someone will get that), posting immature, insulting garbage, then it's probably not surprising.   ND certainly put the kiss out front and centre, and I do think they have an agenda, but I think that agenda is corporate rather than compassionate.   Everyone was talking about it, debates raged, but it's all PR, publicity, exposure for TLoU2...$$$$$$$$$$ Ka-ching!!  Whether that's a win-win for the LBTQFIFAFFXVR2D2 community or not I don't know, but ND and their fake surprise at the reaction will certainly be enjoying the press.

 

ND aren't stupid at all though, I'm pretty sure the kiss, the love between them, will be pivotal, as I fully expect the girl Ellie loves will either be kidnapped or outright killed, probably the latter, which will set in motion the story arc and the motivations...they've just used the scene, with little context, to illicit a public response and pander to the social trends.   TLoU was a story heavy, character driven narrative, with the gameplay as a backdrop, I'd imagine 2 will be the same so I've no objection to the kiss informing us she really loves this girl, and it's a girl because Ellie is gay, otherwise it'd have been a boy obviously, but is Ellie gay for real world social effect?  Maybe, but I don't think it impinged on the story whatsoever, and in 2 they'll likely do a very good job of presenting a young lady in love and seeking revenge or whatever for the loss of that love, gay will become irrelevant, it'll be the love of another that's important, which is how it should be.

 

I don't like a lot of the things ND have said on social media, I can't stand the immaturity of SJW nonsense, nor the seeping politicization or social propaganda which has infected just about everything well beyond gaming, but to ND's credit, I really don't think any of it has affected the quality or their games.  I finished Luke Cage season 2 the other day, and jesus h Netflix, pro-democratic, anti Trump, evil white man, poor black people tripe...I just want to watch a good show with some great music, some really hot women (Simone Missick is smoking), a cool big fella that's bulletproof and likes to tear the place up, all wrapped up in a good story.   I don't want to listen to the writers agenda, or have conveyed to me how evil we white people are, or Trump is bad etc...that's the kind of nonsense people get annoyed with.   No-one cares Ellie is gay, or someone is trans, or whatever the colour of their skin, or their faith or vote, at least the majority don't, we just don't want propaganda shoved in our faces, thankfully ND, imo, haven't done that...yet!

 

Very well put Sir.

 

At the end of the day, agenda or not, sales figures and critic/player reviews will speak volumes about the quality of the game. ND are an extremely intelligent corporate entity and of course they will manipulate social media to gain all kinds of PR.

 

Not sure why people are getting their knickers in a twist before the game has even been released, other than to fill some empty void in their lives. It's not like ND have disappointed at all in recent years, much the opposite.

 

This is the problem with social media and why I stay away from the likes of facebook, twitter etc. You can voice your concerns about it after you've played the game and find it disappointing or whatever. Don't let other people make that decision for you, let alone before they've even played the game. Until then play other games and get on with your lives.

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On 7/22/2018 at 8:12 AM, NathanielJohn said:

 

I don't watch a lot of TV, so I can't comment on that, but you really find this to be a problem in video games? I don't think I can name more than 1 or 2 games per year with openly homosexual characters.

 

List of games with all heterosexual romances from my profile that I can remember: all Final Fantasy games, all Infamous games, all Uncharted games, Horizon Zero Dawn, all God of War games, all(?) GTA games, Red Dead Redemption, Heavy Rain, Beyond Two Souls.

 

List of games with at least one homosexual romance from my profile that I can remember: Bioware games and TLoU. And it's the exact same thing when Bioware games come out too -- an internet shitstorm about how it's being shoved in our faces and is so disproportionate.

Hold your horses, the guy above you didn’t say that he doesn’t want homosexual characters in games, he said he doesn’t want it to be a token homosexual characters, he wants interesting gay characters! If you think gay is interesting then that’s a problem, to me and a lot of people being gay is like being straight, most people don’t care about who you want to romance, Mass Effect giving you the ability to play as a gay character is progressive BECAUSE it is who YOU want to play. Again, YOU the player have the power to be whatever you want to be, TLOU presents nuanced characters with depth (Bill and Ellie) that makes you connect with them. Again, it gives you the power to relate and connect with them past their orientation because they’re human beings first. 

Now, TLOU Part II is hard to judge if it’s going to be on the disastrous level of Dragon Age: Inquisition or like TLOU was, I hope it’s the latter, but we can’t say for sure because the trailers are out of context right now. 

Thats one thing that you got wrong in your reply. 

The other thing is that you dodged his point, which was strong female characters and how he doesn’t like Nadine because you can literally cut her from the plot and it wouldn’t change a damn thing, she’s a strong female character, she beats Nate and his brother Sam, she’s buff, she’s a leader, she’s everything, but then she becomes a good little girl at the end because of Rafe? See where I am going? She was put there just to be there, nothing more nothing less, If they set her up to be in The Lost Legacy that’s cool but most people asked for Cutter to be back, not this shallow and terribly written character. Aloy, Lara Croft (at leas 2013 forward) and so many more female characters are how you make a strong female character, Nadine falls flat and doesn’t really come close to holding a candle to the others. Hell, even Elena is a much better strong female character. 

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On 7/28/2018 at 2:06 PM, Undead Wolf said:

 

Well I think it's funny how people still don't understand the point of the video or what people with opposing views believe. Nobody cares that Ellie is gay, it's Naughty Dog's agenda we have a problem with. You act like Ellie's sexuality is the only reason why we think they have one which isn't true at all. I'd suggest actually watching the video before you make such false assumptions.

 

 

You and others keep saying this yet we all know the only reason they showed the kiss at all is because Ellie was kissing a woman. It absolutely would have been weird if they focused so much on, for example, Drake kissing Elena/Chloe in one of the Uncharted gameplay demos. How is it relevant at all? We watch these things to see gameplay (shocking, I know), locations, set pieces, etc - something to get us excited about the game. We don't need to see such an intimate scene when we literally know nothing about any of these new characters. The kiss was the first thing showed in the demo before we even saw any gameplay and it's clear to me they only did that to pander to a certain crowd.

I don't care about the video or whatever political drama that has occured within Naughty Dog, I'm addressing comments I'm seeing here and elsewhere regarding one part of this whole thing. Sorry for not writing a 5 paragraph response breaking down every single thing mentioned. The trailer was subtle and a lot of it was hinting at what the story would be like. As I mentioned, there is obviously going to be some relevance to Ellie's relationship with this girl. The kiss was probably just to show that their relationship was romantic in nature. Like its predecessor, I expect the game to be very story-driven. And it's not like they haven't shown any gameplay at all. That's kind of what they did at the end of the trailer if you can remember anything aside from the kiss you and so many others are bothered about. Hide behind it being a complaint about Naughty Dog's agenda or whatever all you want. As far as I'm concerned there's nothing political about the games they actually make.

 

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On 30 July 2018 at 9:49 AM, Soufwar said:

Hold your horses, the guy above you didn’t say that he doesn’t want homosexual characters in games, he said he doesn’t want it to be a token homosexual characters, he wants interesting gay characters! If you think gay is interesting then that’s a problem, to me and a lot of people being gay is like being straight, most people don’t care about who you want to romance, Mass Effect giving you the ability to play as a gay character is progressive BECAUSE it is who YOU want to play. Again, YOU the player have the power to be whatever you want to be, TLOU presents nuanced characters with depth (Bill and Ellie) that makes you connect with them. Again, it gives you the power to relate and connect with them past their orientation because they’re human beings first. 

Now, TLOU Part II is hard to judge if it’s going to be on the disastrous level of Dragon Age: Inquisition or like TLOU was, I hope it’s the latter, but we can’t say for sure because the trailers are out of context right now. 

Thats one thing that you got wrong in your reply. 

The other thing is that you dodged his point, which was strong female characters and how he doesn’t like Nadine because you can literally cut her from the plot and it wouldn’t change a damn thing, she’s a strong female character, she beats Nate and his brother Sam, she’s buff, she’s a leader, she’s everything, but then she becomes a good little girl at the end because of Rafe? See where I am going? She was put there just to be there, nothing more nothing less, If they set her up to be in The Lost Legacy that’s cool but most people asked for Cutter to be back, not this shallow and terribly written character. Aloy, Lara Croft (at leas 2013 forward) and so many more female characters are how you make a strong female character, Nadine falls flat and doesn’t really come close to holding a candle to the others. Hell, even Elena is a much better strong female character. 

Are you kidding? The 2013 interpretation of Lara is the weakest, shallowest, most hypocritical version yet. Tomb Raider 1-5 Lara was a strong female character. PS2 Lara was a strong female character. PS3/PS4 Lara? About as cardboard as you can get. I also dont see how Inquisition was a disaster.

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On 7/31/2018 at 6:34 PM, madbuk said:

Are you kidding? The 2013 interpretation of Lara is the weakest, shallowest, most hypocritical version yet. Tomb Raider 1-5 Lara was a strong female character. PS2 Lara was a strong female character. PS3/PS4 Lara? About as cardboard as you can get. I also dont see how Inquisition was a disaster.

Compare Inquisition to The Witcher III. Then come back to me. And I am not going into Lara Croft with you again, different opinions mate :)

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