Spectral_Shadow

Spectral_Shadow's Dispute

71 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, AJ_-_808 said:

@MMDE, is the following scenario possible:

 

Player acquired final collectable 

Game auto saves progress

Ps3 crashes before trophy pops (some ps3 trophies have a bit of a delay)

Player reboots and reloads autosave

Auto save shows all collectables and enigma HQ open

Player acquires first enigma trophy from hq and reloads manual save from several collectables ago

Player reacquires last few collectables to repop trophy

 

This is what OP claimed happened. The question now is, is this possibility enough to cause reasonable doubt that the flag is correct, and are there any other questionable trophies on the account that would support the argument?

 

Yes, it could be a 1 time save file usage, or this could be the 1 time out of many where he slipped up. Or, it could be very bad luck/timing with a ps3 crash and a poor decision to not reload a manual save immediately.

 

I think it depends on the site's guidelines for reasonable doubt?

 

The issue is proving that all of this happened. This could be an excuse used by everyone who used a save file to unlock trophies they didn't earn legitimately and most people who have time stamp issues have those issues because they cheated the game. There have been people who have instantly informed the forum that something like this has happened and they didn't end up being flagged because they could prove it happened. When you wait until your dispute thread and have no proof of what happened, it becomes problematic because people are going to automatically assume guilt of the person. Also, why is it that people suddenly know about all of their trophy issues only after they get flagged? They never tell people that those things happened before they are flagged. Sure, some people might not know it was an issue, or they think because they're one list in thousands, they won't be noticed. 

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Also, why is it that people suddenly know about all of their trophy issues only after they get flagged?

 

Because not all players go to the forum to tell people when something goes wrong. And we can't require to do this for each player otherwise will have to spend half of our game time to the forum ...

 

We all know that software (and so games) have bugs and issues, and hardware also have bugs and issue too. I'm pretty sure that almost all the player's lists that do trophy hunting since multiple years have one or more games with on trophy buggy that does not fit precisely the normal order. And that's normal, because it's software and because there are bugs.

Requiring a "prefect" trophy list is understandable, but the more the months and years go, the less it could be respected, even if you play legit !

 

Usage of external save can be obvious, but it's not the case here. @Spectral_Shadow provides a scenario that could explain this order, and I think that the doubt must be profitable for him.

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All I can really add to this is after speaking with @B1rvine, my memory got jogged a bit.  In my own game on my ps3 account (ajpaldino) I recall being able to smash the computer at enigma HQ without being prompted to press triangle, and being able to get the collectable in that room long before being able to get through the locked door for the riddler trophy pickup.

 

This only supports the possibility that spectral's final collectable was not in the enigma HQ, but could have been anywhere, including a particularly buggy area or as his trophy shows, an area where he could do the 50x combo 15variation track requirement.

4 hours ago, Sergen said:

 

The issue is proving that all of this happened. This could be an excuse used by everyone who used a save file to unlock trophies they didn't earn legitimately and most people who have time stamp issues have those issues because they cheated the game. There have been people who have instantly informed the forum that something like this has happened and they didn't end up being flagged because they could prove it happened. When you wait until your dispute thread and have no proof of what happened, it becomes problematic because people are going to automatically assume guilt of the person. Also, why is it that people suddenly know about all of their trophy issues only after they get flagged? They never tell people that those things happened before they are flagged. Sure, some people might not know it was an issue, or they think because they're one list in thousands, they won't be noticed. 

I remember a dispute where the disputer only had to provide an explanation for how it happened and not necessarily have to prove their innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

Someone could probably duplicate this by getting the last collectable and pulling the plug before the trophy pops

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18 minutes ago, AJ_-_808 said:

I remember a dispute where the disputer only had to provide an explanation for how it happened and not necessarily have to prove their innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

Someone could probably duplicate this by getting the last collectable and pulling the plug before the trophy pops

 

Not all disputes are the same, for good reasons. If you want to discuss it, send me a link to the dispute and I'll tell you the reason(s).

 

In this case, it matches what you could easily screw up when you use downloaded saves. It's also not a common glitch AFAIK. They haven't explained how this can naturally happen without them referring a "convenient" freeze/glitch etc almost anyone could blame in similar situations.

 

But as I said, if you got any issues with this, PM me, I just can't be bothered to have yet another dispute thread be dragged down due to discussions and opinions about what disputes threads should be like.

Edited by MMDE
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Nah no issues here, just a counterpoint to the 'prove your innocence' tone.

 

Yes, it matches a save file use, but it also matches the OP explanation. If someone feels like disproving that by pulling the plug at the right time to simulate a crash, then by all means...

 

Unfortunately, the only arguement for a flag lift is the possible, although unlikely, timing of a crash and (as far as I know) no other questionable trophies on the account to act as a character witness of sorts.

 

If there's no benefit of the doubt, then may as well lock it up and shut it down.

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20 minutes ago, NathanielJohn said:

 

I can only find one save file on NGU that is claimed to auto-pop the trophy in question here, and it has only 79% completion and a play time of 41:49:51. The video and screenshot that the OP posted here show his save file having *less* time played on it (41:41:21), and 100% completion, so it cannot possibly be the same save file. So which save file is he accused of using?

 

@MMDE, does this help at all?  If so, would other flags have to be re-reviewed?

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Sorry, but honestly, @NathanielJohn, you're making an argument from ignorance without all the information known.  There's just way too many weird things to explain away here. I really wish people that have nothing to add but a "single trophy out of order" argument without all the facts, wouldn't comment in these things.

 

Six minutes prior, he achieves Crime Scene Investigator. This is on the complete opposite end of the world from Enigma's HQ.  Assuming he already had all of the Enigma collectibles at this point, and went directly to the first Riddler trophy, this would take, at the bare minimum, a good three minutes. That's being generous. Add in perfectly located collectibles, freezing, restarting, etc, and the time gets to the realm of impossibility. Then, there's the weird Dark Knight Track trophy, which potentially causes problems, one way or another, depending on various circumstances. At worst, its an actual issue, at best its odd and the OP made it harder on himself purposely with one of the hardest trophies in the game.

 

It's an issue when two unrelated trophies have the nearly fastest time possible between them, after something is in an impossible order, for a trophy known to auto pop, and the trophy time doesn't account for the extra time his explanation provides.  Edit: I did check, only four people have faster times than the OP, and barely, for the CSI and FRT, and their Enigma trophy was well before. The OP has a truly unique, and rather odd trophy pattern nobody else has, that's out of order, with basically a 1 / 200000 chance of occurring if he's being honest.

 

Edited by B1rvine
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15 hours ago, Saionji said:

Just my 2 cents....

 

So when there's one trophy thats 100% wrong that autopops, another that's a 1 / 200000 anomally, and a third that indicates the 5th fastest trophy->trophy time in the world, combined... you're really saying this isn't an issue when all three occur at once? :facepalm:

 

There were plenty of profiles that weren't flagged truly having one trophy off, like this one (Shut down is out of order) and this one (Save a Life), and this one (Legend of Dark Knight randomly pops one hour later)...

 

Edited by B1rvine
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4 hours ago, Exairesi said:

look at the most successful criminal justice systems … the accuser has to prove the guilt … granted this isn't life and death … punishing someone for a false crime is worse than the crime committed

 

if it cant be proved on this particular trophy set … it's bound to show up on another trophy set … didn't they get Capone on tax evasion or something like that??? 

This isn't a court room it's an Internet forum, the rules don't really apply in the same way, which has been stated before. Not only that, as you say, "the accuser has to prove the guilt" bare in mind (in a court) the defendant has to prove the innocence so your analogy is kinda silly, at least to me (no offense intended).

 

It has shown up on another dispute:-

 

 

Edited by TOAST13TOA5T
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4 hours ago, B1rvine said:

Sorry, but honestly, @NathanielJohn, you're making an argument from ignorance without all the information known.  There's just way too many weird things to explain away here. I really wish people that have nothing to add but a "single trophy out of order" argument without all the facts, wouldn't comment in these things.

 

Oh knock it off. I'm hardly just repeating "single trophy out of order" over and over -- I'm asking for some transparency and clarity on your end. The OP has been more than cooperative so far, and the reaction he's been met with is ridiculous. He keeps getting flippant single-sentence non-answers to any evidence he provides. I wouldn't mind if people actually explained why that evidence is insufficient (e.g., "you could have done X, Y, and Z, to make a downloaded save look like this..."), but they don't -- they just ignore it completely.

 

I've spent around an hour crawling through NGU for save files that could match up with what he's posted, and found nothing. I also already brought up the fact that the save file shows his username. The username is stored in the "SUB_TITLE" field of the PARAM.SFO part of a save file, and is not changed when the save file is resigned. In every game I've tested this in, it is also not changed when re-saving the game in the game itself, but unfortunately I do not have Arkham Origins myself and thus cannot test this here. If someone could confirm, would that end this dispute?

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I have a feeling like OP really havent cheated or thats what I would like to think because his trophy list definitely looks very good, I think he was just really unlucky with some glitches because using save just for this game out of the blue when he could use them for several harder games he did legit doesnt makes sense to me. I tried to help @Spectral_Shadow but thats as far as I can go, you will have to bring some stronger evidence than the video you posted. Still its just 2 trophies glitched, I think Shadow Vigilante is unlikely but possible to pop in 19.13 mins after First Riddler and 1.59 mins before Enigma if the game froze as he stated.

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12 hours ago, NathanielJohn said:

 

I'm sorry, but at this point I think it's the responsibility of the accusers to more clearly explicate which save file he's being accused of using. It's impossible for someone to defend against vague accusations that are nothing more than "well he could have used a save file, and lots of people cheat this game".

 

I can only find one save file on NGU that is claimed to auto-pop the trophy in question here, and it has only 79% completion and a play time of 41:49:51. The video and screenshot that the OP posted here show his save file having *less* time played on it (41:41:21), and 100% completion, so it cannot possibly be the same save file. So which save file is he accused of using?

 

 

While I'm not going to argue for or against this person, as I think 1 trophy could very easily glitch on this shitty game, as it was laggy and on the verge of freezing a few times while I played it. I will say that NGU isn't the only place someone could get a save file, I've been asked by random people at times if they could use my save file for a game after I got the platinum and I'm sure at times there are people who agree to give their save to random people who ask. 

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6 minutes ago, Sergen said:

 

While I'm not going to argue for or against this person, as I think 1 trophy could very easily glitch on this shitty game, as it was laggy and on the verge of freezing a few times while I played it. I will say that NGU isn't the only place someone could get a save file, I've been asked by random people at times if they could use my save file for a game after I got the platinum and I'm sure at times there are people who agree to give their save to random people who ask. 

 

Sure, and that very well may have happened. But if people are going to use the existence of NGU save files as evidence against the OP here (as was done earlier in the thread), I think it's fair to point out that those particular save files actually could not have done what is claimed here.

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8 hours ago, NathanielJohn said:

 

Sure, and that very well may have happened. But if people are going to use the existence of NGU save files as evidence against the OP here (as was done earlier in the thread), I think it's fair to point out that those particular save files actually could not have done what is claimed here.

 

In my case, when I referred to NGU, it was their guide of how to use the saves. Obviously this person didn't get it from there when they didn't follow the guide. I already looked at saves from several different sources, and yes, I didn't find any easily matching saves, so there's no need to reiterate that. I also checked the ones on gamefaqs. They had a couple too, and there's many other sources.

 

 

Deleted:

 

I'm tempted to remove quite a lot of posts in this dispute, because it's not helpful at all, just distracts.

 

 

16 hours ago, Saionji said:

Just my 2 cents but I think flagging someone for just one glitched trophy is a bit ridiculous, glitches definitely happen and even if its less common glitch its just one trophy nonetheless. Unless the rules have changed wasnt at least 3 glitched trophies neccesary to flag someone. I remember Sly saying something once that glitches happen and it should be at least 3 trophies out of order. Why would he cheated Batman AO when he has much more difficult plats done. It doesnt makes sense to me.

 

Stuff like this is not needed and as such not wanted in the dispute threads. Do you think I don't already know what you're saying here? Neither is it all that relevant either seeing there's other potential issues with the list. In some games, that one trophy out of order could tell a completely different story about what someone has done in a game. Let's say they get the trophy for beating the game before most of the other unmissable story-related trophies. That's definitely flaggable. etc 

 

Edited by MMDE
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10 hours ago, Saionji said:

I may be wrong but I only see one trophy in the wrong order...

Technically yes, but there's more to it than that.  I didn't explain everything because I wanted the OP to explain it first. Anyway, it's more like:

 

1 trophy 100% wrong (known to auto-pop), immediately followed by:

1 trophy ~99.998% likely impossible speed (and faster people had no glitches, restarts, when accounting for their speeds etc)

1 trophy ~90% unusually planned (one of hardest to obtain, weirdly inserted in here)

 

Are the other two trophies possible in that order, yes they are, but two improbable trophies after an impossible trophy is the issue here.

 

Technical details: from Crime Scene Investigator's final location, if purposely planned out to rush to the Riddler Trophy, its a good ~30-45 seconds to reach the Enigma HQ, about  ~1 more minute to reach the locked door, another ~1 minute of dialogue, and a good 15 more seconds to enter the secret area and pick up the item. This could possibly be faster if someone purposely goes down there and gets access to the item but doesn't pick it up, but... why?  These times don't account that the OP said he had items to pick up, which really aren't quick even if near each other, nor times for crashing and restarting that would be in between. So, while its certainly possible, its highly unlikely with the timing.  As mentioned previously, only 4 people have faster times for this trophy->trophy speed than the OP.  One of those 4 has hidden trophies.  So while the time is possible, immediately after an impossible trophy ordering he's supposedly fixing seems fishy.

 

As far as the Dark Knight Track randomly popping afterwards, here's the issue: he either purposely postponed the re-collection of a few easy collectibles after a restart to fix a glitch, or would have thad to do the Dark Knight Track twice, since Legend of the Dark Knight requires this and 3 others are 100% done at the same time in game. (ie he couldn't have earned it, then reloaded prior to it being down, without re-earning it to get another trophy later. Which is odd since its basically the arguably hardest in the game).  So while the order is possible, about 99% of the people never do it this way, and throw in right after a glitch you reloaded to fix, seems extra fishy.

 

9 hours ago, BB-BakkerJ said:

I don’t know anything about this game...

 

Exactly, which is why when someone else makes (not directing this at any one person, just people in general), an unhelpful / uninformed comment, the anti-dispute agitators latch on to these things and yell witch hunt because support for those comments is shown. Btw, if you're talking about "Plan B", your Borderlands 2 list is perfectly possible. And people are flagged for that game I'm pretty sure.

 

 

Also @Spectral_Shadow if this truly did glitch on you, know I'm not making a case against you for any personal reasons or anything, its just an extremely unlikely scenario of events, like literally 1 / 200000 unlikely odds, as mentioned before, when comparing your list to every other persons.

 

Edited by B1rvine
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19 hours ago, B1rvine said:

Technically yes, but there's more to it than that.  I didn't explain everything because I wanted the OP to explain it first. Anyway, it's more like:

 

1 trophy 100% wrong (known to auto-pop), immediately followed by:

1 trophy ~99.998% likely impossible speed (and faster people had no glitches, restarts, when accounting for their speeds etc)

1 trophy ~90% unusually planned (one of hardest to obtain, weirdly inserted in here)

 

Are the other two trophies possible in that order, yes they are, but two improbable trophies after an impossible trophy is the issue here.

 

Technical details: from Crime Scene Investigator's final location, if purposely planned out to rush to the Riddler Trophy, its a good ~30-45 seconds to reach the Enigma HQ, about  ~1 more minute to reach the locked door, another ~1 minute of dialogue, and a good 15 more seconds to enter the secret area and pick up the item. This could possibly be faster if someone purposely goes down there and gets access to the item but doesn't pick it up, but... why?  These times don't account that the OP said he had items to pick up, which really aren't quick even if near each other, nor times for crashing and restarting that would be in between. So, while its certainly possible, its highly unlikely with the timing.  As mentioned previously, only 4 people have faster times for this trophy->trophy speed than the OP.  One of those 4 has hidden trophies.  So while the time is possible, immediately after an impossible trophy ordering he's supposedly fixing seems fishy.

 

As far as the Dark Knight Track randomly popping afterwards, here's the issue: he either purposely postponed the re-collection of a few easy collectibles after a restart to fix a glitch, or would have thad to do the Dark Knight Track twice, since Legend of the Dark Knight requires this and 3 others are 100% done at the same time in game. (ie he couldn't have earned it, then reloaded prior to it being down, without re-earning it to get another trophy later. Which is odd since its basically the arguably hardest in the game).  So while the order is possible, about 99% of the people never do it this way, and throw in right after a glitch you reloaded to fix, seems extra fishy.

 

 

Exactly, which is why when someone else makes (not directing this at any one person, just people in general), an unhelpful / uninformed comment, the anti-dispute agitators latch on to these things and yell witch hunt because support for those comments is shown. Btw, if you're talking about "Plan B", your Borderlands 2 list is perfectly possible. And people are flagged for that game I'm pretty sure.

 

 

Also @Spectral_Shadow if this truly did glitch on you, know I'm not making a case against you for any personal reasons or anything, its just an extremely unlikely scenario of events, like literally 1 / 200000 unlikely odds, as mentioned before, when comparing your list to every other persons.

 

 

I provided empirical evidence of the existence of my own save file on both, picture and video format. My own testimony of what happened, and I understand that only that may not be enough, that's why I was always cooperative in providing aditional evidence.

 

On the other side there is only a hypotesis of me using a "downloaded save" while providing no evidence to justify the claim. Conjestures like you did in your post, while I can understand the reasoning behind your suspicion, it ultimately derails in the prosecutor's fallacy. When an unlikely scenario happened, and incredible low odds are against the defender, then it must mean that the accussed person is guilty of the crime commited. It just doesn't work like that in any real serious case. Now, it has been metioned "this is only and Internet forum and not a court room", and I agree with the statement, but it should also be noted that some standads of reasoning and evidence should be respected. Otherwise this wouldn't be any different from a witch hunt or a kangaroo court.

 

This is pretty much your whole post:
 

 

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28 minutes ago, Spectral_Shadow said:

 

I provided empirical evidence of the existence of my own save file on both, picture and video format. My own testimony of what happened, and I understand that only that may not be enough, that's why I was always cooperative in providing aditional evidence.

 

On the other side there is only a hypotesis of me using a "downloaded save" while providing no evidence to justify the claim. Conjestures like you did in your post, while I can understand the reasoning behind your suspicion, it ultimately derails in the prosecutor's fallacy. When an unlikely scenario happened, and incredible low odds are against the defender, then it must mean that the accussed person is guilty of the crime commited. It just doesn't work like that in any real serious case. Now, it has been metioned "this is only and Internet forum and not a court room", and I agree with the statement, but it should also be noted that some standads of reasoning and evidence should be respected. Otherwise this wouldn't be any different from a witch hunt or a kangaroo court.

 

This is pretty much your whole post:
 

 

 

Instead of providing us with explanations about fallacies, you could try to find some evidence of this glitch happening to people. I gave you a link to a thread where someone claimed it was possible to do legit. Nobody bought that, and he never hid the game either.

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22 hours ago, MMDE said:

 

Instead of providing us with explanations about fallacies, you could try to find some evidence of this glitch happening to people. I gave you a link to a thread where someone claimed it was possible to do legit. Nobody bought that, and he never hid the game either.

 

I'm the person that's put more evidence in the table than anyone else in this thread. When being falsely accused of using a downloaded save on the other side, while no evidence was provided. But the burden of proof still relies on my part?

 

Then a user argues there's a 1/200.000 chance that what happened to me is true, and if it did, it was extremely unlikely, and at the same time you are telling me to provide evidence of that event? What's so hard to see about this that's ridiculous?

 

22 hours ago, B1rvine said:

 

All other disputes regarding this specific trophy have been proven beyond reasonable doubt as cheaters.

 

 

Somehow what others have done imply that I might've used a save a single isolated time in the whole existence of my profile for a game that was and is known to glitch, freeze, etc. Akrham Origins was not a polished game in any way, shape or form. So that means "downloaded save" with no evidence whatsoever weighs more than the freeze/glitch? Even if this was true, how can you reconcile this supposed dichotomy in my behavior for a single petty trophy when my completionist habit is consistent throughout my whole collection? 

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5 hours ago, Spectral_Shadow said:

 

I'm the person that's put more evidence in the table than anyone else in this thread. When being falsely accused of using a downloaded save on the other side, while no evidence was provided. But the burden of proof still relies on my part?

 

Then a user argues there's a 1/200.000 chance that what happened to me is true, and if it did, it was extremely unlikely, and at the same time you are telling me to provide evidence of that event? What's so hard to see about this that's ridiculous?

 

 

Somehow what others have done imply that I might've used a save a single isolated time in the whole existence of my profile for a game that was and is known to glitch, freeze, etc. Akrham Origins was not a polished game in any way, shape or form. So that means "downloaded save" with no evidence whatsoever weighs more than the freeze/glitch? Even if this was true, how can you reconcile this supposed dichotomy in my behavior for a single petty trophy when my completionist habit is consistent throughout my whole collection? 

The sad reality in this situation mate is that nothing you say will prove anything. You can provide all the evidence you want, but unless you have a video of yourself playing the game and then everything happening as you said, it won't change their minds. The problem is the ones who lie about this stuff use glitches and freezes as their excuses and so the general assumption is anyone who says it is a cheater. This doesn't require any evidence because they don't need to prove your guilt, just that you have out of order or unusual trophies and unless you can prove otherwise, you obviously cheated. 

As far as lengths to prove your innocence, you seem to have gone much further than the majority of dispute threads I've seen, so credit to you there.

@MMDE I will say this though, if you're going to cut out posts from the 'sympathisers' because their unhelpful, then you should probably also cut out posts from the accusers that add nothing as well. And also the ones that say things like 'why are you getting angry, just prove it and you'll be fine' or 'you're not proving your case by getting mad' because they don't add anything either, just fuel to the fire.

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On 9/25/2018 at 0:33 PM, Spectral_Shadow said:

Snip

 

For the record, the “proof” is that your timestamps are impossibly out of order. Simply put, they cant be duplicated by “normal” play. It is not unreasonable to think that a grindy trophy known to auto-pop and impossibly ordered in your list, followed by some near-fastest times possible and an abnormal situation after was suspicious. Plenty of evidence of cheating was provided.

 

 

 

Edited by B1rvine
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