Se7en Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 minute ago, MMDE said: Pretty sure I already answered this. Just don't try to out-clever yourself. Don't make it look like you used a downloaded save or edited timestamps. Where? Please, would you be so kind to provide a link? Thanks. ‘Cos I was under impression that you didn’t post in this topic after I asked you the question: 1 hour ago, Se7en said: So popping trophies too fast with your own save files is a no-no, because “we don’t want impossible timestamps on the leaderboard”, but popping trophies too fast with multiple consoles is okay, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Bee Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) I think that the issue here is everyone who thinks this should be flagged (me included) thinks that "impossible" means not repeatable by one person on one console. What @MMDE is saying is that is not the case. "Impossible" only applies to something that is not repeatable within Sony's TOS, or without deleting profiles without syncing, and using backup saves. If you are playing on multiple consoles, with multiple people, you still couldn't speed up trophies that say "Collect X treasure", and "Collect all treasure". So those would be flagged. While this ruling does open some games to the potential excuse "I had help from a friend", I think it actually opens up fewer than I initially anticipated. Either way, we have had an answer to this question more than once in this thread. According to the people who enforce the rules on this site, this will likely be flagged, but will ultimately be lifted. Edited October 18, 2018 by Sir_Bee 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMDE Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Sir_Bee said: I think that the issue here is everyone who thinks this should be flagged (me included) thinks that "impossible" means not repeatable by one person on one console. What @MMDE is saying is that is not the case. "Impossible" only applies to something that is not repeatable within Sony's TOS, or without deleting profiles without syncing, and using backup saves. If you are playing on multiple consoles, with multiple people, you still couldn't speed up trophies that say "Collect X treasure", and "Collect all treasure". So those would be flagged. While this ruling does open some games to the potential excuse "I had help from a friend", I think it actually opens up fewer than I initially anticipated. Either way, we have had an answer to this question more than once in this thread. According to the people who enforce the rules on this site, this will likely be flagged, but will ultimately be lifted. It could accidentally get flagged, but could also remain if you're being too clever, like level 40 A and B spec at the same time (7 secs apart or so) in GT5. Edited October 18, 2018 by MMDE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Bee Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 minute ago, MMDE said: It could accidentally get flagged, but could also remain if you're being too clever, like level 40 A and B spec at the same time (7 secs apart or so) in GT5. I am not a fan of vague rules. How close is too close? Because it has been demonstrated that this would be possible using multiple consoles and multiple people, which this thread has decided is ok under the rules as they are. So what does being clever have to do with it? It can be demonstrated that there is a method that can complete the trophy list with the time stamps as they appear, without breaking any rules, that should result in a lift. The defender doesn't need to prove that they didn't cheat, just that it could be done legit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Sir_Bee said: I am not a fan of vague rules... me neither...although I disagree, i'm ok if the admins decide that multiple people playing the same game at the same time and syncing to one common account is non flaggable...if yes, then I think all trophies that have timestamps that fall within these boundaries of possibility have their flag lifted, should they occur...could we have a clear statement on this, please?...so far it has been pretty vague...in example a, such activity would be flagged...in example b, such activity would not...it's a bit confusing... I've previously suggested a scenario with gta iv...would it be flagged?...and if 5 people play wolfenstein 2 on the same account, would it be flagged if: player a and b start the campaign and complete it...player a then moves on to complete the mein leiben run...player b focuses on the collectables and miscellaneous trophies...player c starts dlc 1...player d starts dlc 2...player e starts dlc 3...they all earn their trophies legit and sync to a common account...the trophies would inevitably appear in a pretty random order...would this be flagged?...and, if so, what would be necessary to prove that it would be possible with 5 people?...someone mentioning in the dispute that it could be done this way?... if yes to both gta iv and wolfenstein 2 scenarios above, all good...i just think it's worth clarifying in a black and white matter on this...i'm not sure if I'm the only one but so far I'm still quite confused as to how these timestamps would be dealt with... Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Bee Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said: me neither...although I disagree, i'm ok if the admins decide that multiple people playing the same game at the same time and syncing to one common account is non flaggable...if yes, then I think all trophies that have timestamps that fall within these boundaries of possibility have their flag lifted, should they occur...could we have a clear statement on this, please?...so far it has been pretty vague...in example a, such activity would be flagged...in example b, such activity would not...it's a bit confusing... I've previously suggested a scenario with gta iv...would it be flagged?...and if 5 people play wolfenstein 2 on the same account, would it be flagged if: player a and b start the campaign and complete it...player a then moves on to complete the mein leiben run...player b focuses on the collectables and miscellaneous trophies...player c starts dlc 1...player d starts dlc 2...player e starts dlc 3...they all earn their trophies legit and sync to a common account...the trophies would inevitably appear in a pretty random order...would this be flagged?...and, if so, what would be necessary to prove that it would be possible with 5 people?...someone mentioning in the dispute that it could be done this way?... if yes to both gta iv and wolfenstein 2 scenarios above, all good...i just think it's worth clarifying in a black and white matter on this...i'm not sure if I'm the only one but so far I'm still quite confused as to how these timestamps would be dealt with... Under the rules that we have been told, that should not be flagged, because it is possible to do with multiple consoles. But so would the situation mentioned by MMDE, but it is just 'too clever'. That implies that it doesn't matter if you can show there is a method to get the list within the rules of this site, the people making the decision can just decide they don't believe you did it that way. Now I am sure that other trophies in the game, or other games on the profile could influence that decision, but the point still stands, evidence of a method to get the trophies legit should remove the flag. There is no way to prove how you did it, as it has been said multiple times that pictures or video would not be accepted as evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Se7en Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, MMDE said: It could accidentally get flagged, but could also remain if you're being too clever, like level 40 A and B spec at the same time in GT5. Popping A and B specs within a few seconds in GT5 resembles undoubtedly save file usage. But it is still very possible (pre-planned or unintentional) by playing on two consoles. And completing two or more difficulty modes simultaneously on multiple consoles isn’t even so obvious case, as there might be minutes or hours between trophies (but still impossible gaps for one person, even the WR speedrunner). If that’s allowed, do you plan on revisiting disputes of all people claiming their children/cousins/friends were playing the same game on another console thus resulting in very close timestamps, and lifting those flags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMDE Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Se7en said: Popping A and B specs within a few seconds in GT5 resembles undoubtedly save file usage. But it is still very possible (pre-planned or unintentional) by playing on two consoles. And completing two or more difficulty modes simultaneously on multiple consoles isn’t even so obvious case, as there might be minutes or hours between trophies (but still impossible gaps for one person, even the WR speedrunner). If that’s allowed, do you plan on revisiting disputes of all people claiming their children/cousins/friends were playing the same game on another console thus resulting in very close timestamps, and lifting those flags? Nope. Disputes where two people at the same time has been claimed has either been considered and the flags stick (for reasons I've explained earlier about linearity) or lifted (like the case of LBPK). Nothing has changed. Edited October 18, 2018 by MMDE 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellMoodCole Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) deleted Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Bee Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 minute ago, BigBossImBeamer said: I feel your argumentation. But it should not be about what's possible, it should be about what it looks like and what's more likely. The problem with your argumentation is that every timestamps combination ALWAYS has a possible explanation without cheating. With your argumentation you couldn't flag anyone. I have an example: I'm an honest person and I make no secret of that I am a trophy seller. There are a lot of guys I did the "Mein leben" trophy from Wolfenstein II for. There was a "Mein leben" trophy I had prepared on a blank account. (new user with no related PSN account) This trophy was bought by a well known cheater who already got flagged for other games. My point is he started the game after I earned the "Mein leben" trophy and his trophies were already updated on this site. When I synced the trophies from the blank user to his account, some of his trophies got overwritten by Sony, but not on this site. So he got a Wolfenstein II trophy list here on PSNP completely out of order. (Mein leben was earned long before the game was finished.) In theory he could did everything of this alone even without a blank account. Nothing of this would be against the cheating rules of this site. So this explains a trophy list which is completely out of order with no cheating involved. (This is why it's so important to sync your trophies immediately when you play on different consoles!) With this explaination every impossible timestamp scenario could be excused. So this is why it's more important to see what's likely and not what's "just" possible. I don't know enough about the trophy in question, but as I understand it your example could not have been done legit on his own. It would require him to delete a profile, or use a backup save. Those break the rules of this site, and thus that would not be repeatable no matter how many consoles or people he had helping him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellMoodCole Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) deleted Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Bee Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 But that doesn't make any sense. How would you, assuming you want to do it legit, end up beating the hardest difficulty before anything else? Even if it were unlocked from the beginning, how would you have that trophy before say Deja Vu? And if it isn't unlocked at the beginning, how would you get it legit before any other play through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellMoodCole Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) deleted Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Sir_Bee said: Under the rules that we have been told, that should not be flagged, because it is possible to do with multiple consoles. But so would the situation mentioned by MMDE, but it is just 'too clever'. haha...what?...what does too clever even mean?...so this is acceptable as long as it's not too clever?... 1 hour ago, BigBossImBeamer said: I have an example: There was a "Mein leben" trophy I had prepared on a blank account. (new user with no related PSN account). My point is he started the game after I earned the "Mein leben" trophy and his trophies were already updated on this site. When I synced the trophies from the blank user to his account, some of his trophies got overwritten by Sony, but not on this site. So he got a Wolfenstein II trophy list here on PSNP completely out of order. (Mein leben was earned long before the game was finished.) what you've described here is basically share play...your timestamps up to the mein leiben trophy should override the 2nd person's timestamps...my understanding of the current rules is that it should be flagged and you should have to sync your trophies again after the person you helped earned all the same trophies as you (and possibly more in the case that they go for plat or 100%...) from what I've seen from previous disputes...this would make them appear in the correct order... and that's not what I'm asking about...it's when two or more people play the same game at the same time and earn trophies out of order that I'm curious about...has there been any conclusion other than not doing so in too clever a manner resulting in a non-flag?...which is pretty non-specific... Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Bee Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said: haha...what?...what does too clever even mean?...so this is acceptable as long as it's not too clever?... I have no idea, hence my "vague rules" comment earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Sir_Bee said: I have no idea, hence my "vague rules" comment earlier. haha...ok...so is there an actual verdict in sight or will this be one of this case-by-case type situations that will likely cause chaos in the dispute forum?... Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Bee Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Just now, ProfBambam55 said: haha...ok...so is there an actual verdict in site or will this be one of this case-by-case type situations that will likely cause chaos in the dispute forum?... The question was answered multiple times in this thread, and the answer appears to be that it will be case by case. It is fine as long as you sync early, and aren't 'too clever', whatever that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellMoodCole Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) deleted Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, BigBossImBeamer said: But how is it possible to distinguish this from timestamps editing? why does it matter?...if the time stamps are plausible via share play which, again, is basically what you described, no flag...if you look at the wolfenstein 2 description I laid out it would be very easy to distinguish as implausible since you would potentially have story, collectable, and dlc, etc. trophies all popping within minutes...meaning impossible time stamps...meaning flag... why is there a need to distinguish between save file use, cfw use, and time stamps manipulation?...they are all different forms of cheating which lead to a variety of different results, no?...my point is that the time stamps should appear as though one person has earned them in a manner that is possible for each individual game as they would in your wolf 2 example but not in mine...meaning for your team, no flag...for mine, a flag... much like team accounts that work together to complete separate games which can be hard to detect...or people playing from different regions, also hard to detect...the timestamps appear "normal" in your case so no reason to flag...do you see the difference I'm trying to highlight?...if players who do what you do want to come forward and admit they earned trophies for other people, that's fine but I would say if timestamps appear legit, leave them alone...if they appear illegit, allow all players involved to sync up and see if the order falls into what is plausible... 1 hour ago, Sir_Bee said: The question was answered multiple times in this thread, and the answer appears to be that it will be case by case. It is fine as long as you sync early, and aren't 'too clever', whatever that means. haha...chaos-by-chaos it is then...and wouldn't it be sync late to allow all the timestamps to fall into order of who earned them first?...the final account should sync first and then everyone else so that the earlier timestamps overwrite the later ones...and I gotta say this "too clever" business brings a smile to my face each time it's mentioned..."sorry jimmy...we warned you...too clever...you're off the leaderboards"...haha... side note : hopefully this situation never actually comes up in a dispute... Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Bee Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said: haha...chaos-by-chaos it is then...and wouldn't it be sync late to allow all the timestamps to fall into order of who earned them first?...the final account should sync first and then everyone else so that the earlier timestamps overwrite the later ones... side note : hopefully this situation never actually comes up in a dispute... I don't think that it works that way. I think that it will overwrite time stamps on your PSN trophy list, but it won't change here. I have no evidence for that other than it being what some people have said, so take that how you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Sir_Bee said: I don't think that it works that way. I think that it will overwrite time stamps on your PSN trophy list, but it won't change here. I have no evidence for that other than it being what some people have said, so take that how you want. that's odd...so all players sync twice then would be ideal?...like an arpeggio... edit : is this actually the case that psn and psnprofiles would show different times?...wouldn't it be, all players sync up in reverse order then the main account earns another trophy and all is well?...why are psnp stats different?...and has it always been this way?... Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellMoodCole Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) deleted Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Bee Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 minute ago, BigBossImBeamer said: I have evidence of a method to get trophies legit in almost every "timestamp out of order" scenario. You could explain a lot of weird timestamps by complex share play. Therefore this alone shouldn't be enough reason to get a flag lifted. You are just repeating your self now, and you quoted me from a post made before you provided your example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, BigBossImBeamer said: If you can't distinguish share play from timestamps editing, no one could get flagged for timestamp editing. I'm now even more confused...if someone edits timestamps in an implausible order, then it should be flagged...if they do it in an order that is plausible, they currently don't usually get flagged without evidence such as two people having the exact same time gaps and being involved in hacking talk on other sites, earning unobtainable trophies after they became unobtainable, using archives to show trophies appearing out of nowhere earned before the archive date, etc...this is quite rare I think... share play is not a flaggable offence since only one player can earn trophies for one account at-a-time...you need to be online to share play and trophies sync automatically...it is not detectable because it is the same as one person earning them themselves...so, in your example, much like editing timestamps "properly" it should not be detected or flagged...i'm not sure why this is comparable to timestamp editing...and i'm also not sure I understand your point...sorry...sounds like we're saying the same thing to me... so basically your scenario for wolfenstein 2 would be like share play therefore a non-flag...my scenario for wolfenstein 2 would be like time stamp editing therefore a flag...i'm saying, and this is just my opinion, my scenario should be flagged by the current rules and yours should not...i'm also asking if my scenario is something that would earn a flag since I'm confused as to what has been officially stated...have I explained it poorly?... Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellMoodCole Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) deleted Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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