Is that against the rules?

[ProfBambam55]

23 minutes ago, BigBossImBeamer said:

You said my example was basically share play. So this is why I used the word. But actually it's "offline share play". I could play Wolfenstein on 10 consoles (with 10 people of course) at the same time on one account. And everytime I sync a console I change timestamps. Every timestamp editor could have a console he hasn't synced yet. 

So this is why I said, just because there is a possible method to create unlikely timestamps (and even overwrite timestamps) without cheating, it should be a reason to get a flag lifted in general like @Sir_Bee said.

I don't think this would be the case...if you earn trophies on 10 accounts and sync them to one account the timestamps should appear in order of earliest to latest as far as I know...so if you complete campaign and mein leiben on one account, then do the rest of the trophies on a second account and sync them in reverse order they should appear as if it was online share play...if you play both at the same time and sync in reverse order they could appear out of order therefore like edited time stamps...my opinion is that the first trophy list above should not be flagged...the second one should...i don't think we should allow people to play the same game at the same time for one account (because they could appear in an order that is not possible for one person to earn on their own...like poorly edited time stamps...detectable) but have no issues if several people play the game sequentially for the same account (because they appear the same as if one person earned them...i.e. like share play...or letting a friend/family member/neighbour/household pet/other person earn them for you...undetectable)...

Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[HellMoodCole]

deleted

Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole

[ProfBambam55]

Just now, BigBossImBeamer said:

 

But the thing is it's already allowed. ? 

It feels wrong to me as well and I will never do it. Neither for myself nor for my purchasers.

I'm not sure it is...isn't that what this topic is about?...haha...i appreciate your posts and honesty but i gotta admit, I'm quite confused...if we agree that it should be a case-by-case analysis I think it would be ideal to discuss which cases are allowed and which are not...if all of the above are allowed, that's fine, I just think it needs to be clearly stated...so far, the site response has been a bit confusing...maybe I just don't get it...which is highly possible...

[zeit86geist]

-

Edited October 18, 2018 by zeit86geist

[HellMoodCole]

deleted

Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole

[ProfBambam55]

57 minutes ago, BigBossImBeamer said:

MMDE and grimydawg already said that it is allowed. ^^

right...and if I read correctly, MMDE then said earning the a and b spec trophies in gt 5 would be too clever and flagged which is why I'm asking about specific scenarios and what is the rule on too clever...

 

i'll try one more attempt at describing a scenario as I would like to know if the following would be "too clever" and if so, why...let's use wolfenstein 2 in our example since we've discussed it a bit here...i'll use you, i, mmde, grimy, and mango as random players working on a fastest time because it's fun :

 

all of us play offline...you and I both start the campaign...we both play on I am death incarnate difficulty...mmde starts on dlc 1, grimy starts on dlc 2, and mango starts on dlc 3...you finish the campaign and start again on mein leiben making it to the end where you need to climb up the ladder...you then pause your game and go into rest mode...i get all of the trophies aside from completing the game on mein leiben and also pause my game from my first playthrough at the final ladder...mmde, grimy, and mango ding all their respective dlc trophies other than completing them on mein leiben...they make it up to the final stages' bosses and also pause their game...we now agree to all finish our playthroughs...we are not perfect so we have a few seconds and minutes randomly seperating our trophies...now we want all of the trophies to appear on my main account so you, mmde, grimy, and mango sync to my account...i wait two weeks to finally sync mine where the plat randomly dings after I load up the game again...

 

now imagine how our combined timestamps would appear and allow me to ask again : is this too clever?...is it allowed?...and if so or if not, what is the reasoning behind why it should or shouldn't be against the leaderboard rules?...my argument would be that it should be flagged because it falls into the category of impossible time stamps as I think the timestamps should represent what each player can do on their own (with or without boosting, multiple consoles performing different roles, share play, glitches, turbo controllers, etc...in other words, things that are not currently flaggable)...what I'm asking is basically, what are the guidelines for using multiple consoles?...and where is the line drawn that clearly states "this type of activity is or isn't considered cheating on psnp"?...

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[HellMoodCole]

deleted

Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole

[ProfBambam55]

12 minutes ago, BigBossImBeamer said:

I would say it's not against the rules and a flag should get lifted. But we would be "too clever" if we would just claiming it without any evidence. I think it depends on the credibility of our statements. If we really did this way, we could easily provide evidence to support our claim. Just claiming it without any evidence would fall under that "too clever" rule and our flag wouldn't get lifted.

I can live with that...so if we ignore mmde's comment on too clever with regards to certain timestamps, is it safe to say that all use of multiple consoles within the list of things that are not flaggable are acceptable as long as they can be proven and not on a case-by-case basis then?...the reason I ask is because I think it's important to clearly state the rules (what I think the op's goal was) before anyone earns trophies so everyone knows which boundaries to play within...if we say case-by-case it means I could earn trophies a certain way thinking they are acceptable, get flagged, and have the flag stick not understanding what I've done wrong...so my next question would be : what kind of evidence would be satisfactory in removing a flag for the scenario in my previous post aside from the 5 of us claiming this is what we did?...

Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[HellMoodCole]

deleted

Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole

[HellMoodCole]

deleted

Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole

[ProfBambam55]

18 minutes ago, BigBossImBeamer said:

@ProfBambam55

There is one thing I forgot to mention. The "too clever" rule of course only applies if our timestamps would follow coincidentally common cheating patterns AND if we can't answer questions that we should be able to answer credibly without any problems. One of those two options alone wouldn't be enough to stay flagged.

hmmm...what common cheating patterns?...and for which games?...this is the key point and to me, the one that needs clarifying...so are you saying the statement of "all uses of multiple consoles is acceptable as long as each individual involved abides by the list of things that are not flaggable" is incorrect?...and if so, what should the rule state in your opinion?...please bear in mind what ifs could lead to misinterpretation...black and white might be best here to make sure we all understand what is acceptable and what is not before we start earning trophies...

 

the other half of providing evidence could likely be solved by asking the person who earned the trophies (if not oneself) or a simple google search I would think...if I were paying you to earn mein leiben for me, you better explain which version and your courtroom strategy to me if they ever came up in a dispute as evidence...haha... 

 

I felt I should clarify the obvious that I would also welcome others to chime in with their opinions...i feel like this is turning into a dialogue between you and I and I don't believe either of us represents the site itself...at least, I certainly don't...just curious and am enjoying our exchange...am a big fan of accuracy, transparency, and logic...and trying to help us all out (although maybe I'm just making things more confusing...argh)...

 

the bam, beam, and bee thread...haha...

Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[HellMoodCole]

deleted

Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole

[ProfBambam55]

11 minutes ago, BigBossImBeamer said:

MMDE probally just said that "too clever" thing to avoid that some save file downloader could use this multiple console thing as an standard excuse. To play on two different consoles the same game at the same time just feels wrong to me. But I don't know on what basis we can forbit it, especially since it is officially supported by Sony and anyone can do it without much effort.

first off, I don't think our leaderboards abide by all of the rules in the ToS so it's kind of a moot point imo...especially if we now claim that we will only obey the ToS...

 

second, and what if the people using multiples consoles did have time stamps similar to save file use?...what would the verdict be?...and what if it was you and I who did it and we both swear that we did it legit even though we did use save files but no evidence existed to contradict our story and our time stamps could be achieved legit by the method we claim?...this means that our rule is now faulty...hence the need for clarification imo...and what about if we actually did them legit without save files?...how is guilty or not decided?...it means that multiple console use is not always acceptable therefore we might need to modify the current rules perhaps?...

Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[HellMoodCole]

deleted

Edited April 7 by HellMoodCole

[ProfBambam55]

1 hour ago, BigBossImBeamer said:

Good point. I admit my argument was pretty bad. Deleting your profile and using your own save file is actually also supported by Sony. ^^

Maybe you're right and it would be better if it wasn't allowed. This would make some disputes much easier and clearer...

haha...rats...i thought we were doing well.on thinking this through so thanks for your replies...i do think that just stating something along the lines of "multiple console use is fine for any given game if they are used sequentially (aside from boosting which is not flaggable) rather than simultaneously" would kind of cover the bases of what you and I would seem to agree on as being reasonable with regards to our leaderboards...of course these lists would be also need to meet the other criteria for things that are not flaggable as well...

 

i'm curious to see if we could come up with an equally reasonable rule for the opposite to be true in all cases...i thought about this before my first post in this thread and drew a blank hence have taken the stance of "multiple consoles being used simultaneously for any given game is flaggable if time stamps indicate that they are implausible by a single person using the same methods with the exception of methods outlined in things that are not flaggable"...

Edited October 18, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[mekktor]

I interpreted @MMDE's statement as saying that it's not against the rules to play multiple consoles at all, but that if you do it in a certain way then you might be accused of doing something which is against the rules, with no way to clear your name. Which to me isn't right at all. If there is overlap between legitimate play and their patterns for detecting cheaters, then their patterns need to give way to legitimate play and they need to find some other way to identify cheaters.

 

What happens if I like to play in a way that my trophies pop closely together. Like saving up all my side quest tokens and handing them all in at once, or lining it up so my final gold star race pushes me over to max level? Is that too "clever" that it will be flagged for resembling save file use?

[ProfBambam55]

23 minutes ago, mekktor said:

I interpreted @MMDE's statement as saying that it's not against the rules to play multiple consoles at all, but that if you do it in a certain way then you might be accused of doing something which is against the rules, with no way to clear your name. Which to me isn't right at all. If there is overlap between legitimate play and their patterns for detecting cheaters, then their patterns need to give way to legitimate play and they need to find some other way to identify cheaters.

i agree and also interpreted the statement in the same way...if we say "all multiple console use is fair game as long as each individual contributor follows the rules of things that are not flaggable" even if I disagree, I'm ok with this as a rule...and this is conditional on no buts at the end of it...as soon as we add a "but not if the time stamps resemble those who cheat" or something along those lines I get confused and would ask for specific clarification...would you agree that no buts would make the rule more reasonable?...and if not, what would you suggest?...

 

my extrapolation of the dispute process based on the ones we've seen to date is that it could get quite messy in proving whether one or several people earned the trophies legit or not...which raises the question : how to go about proving the actual method used?...and what would be the default stance if no proof of foul play could be found?...so far it's been kind of "well, your flag was accepted so your time stamps are probably not possible so now prove you didn't cheat" which is fine but can't help but wonder what would suffice as evidence in these cases...what I think I've seen at least once is a stalemate which ends in a flag staying...if an explanation was provided on how it could be done legit and the flags lifted by default rather than staying for lack of proof of innocence, I'd find this suitable...

 

also, yes, I'm using legal justice system terms and the dispute system here is not a court of law...it's for convenience only...too lazy to put in quotes or use the thesaurus...

Edited October 19, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Sergen]

25 minutes ago, mekktor said:

I interpreted @MMDE's statement as saying that it's not against the rules to play multiple consoles at all, but that if you do it in a certain way then you might be accused of doing something which is against the rules, with no way to clear your name. Which to me isn't right at all. If there is overlap between legitimate play and their patterns for detecting cheaters, then their patterns need to give way to legitimate play and they need to find some other way to identify cheaters.

 

What happens if I like to play in a way that my trophies pop closely together. Like saving up all my side quest tokens and handing them all in at once, or lining it up so my final gold star race pushes me over to max level? Is that too "clever" that it will be flagged for resembling save file use?

 

You're allowed to make as much progress as you want on a game without earning a trophy if the game allows that. 12 hours, 56 minutes on Twisted Metal isn't possible if you aren't prepared for it, but because you can make a lot of progress on the game while still remaining at 0% on the trophy list, the time is legit. You could easily explain that the game lets you do multiple quests at once without turning them in, then when you finally do turn them in, you get all the trophies relating to those quests. The Gran Turismo 5 argument @MMDE brought up is more to do with the fact that plenty of people skip the grind on Gran Turismo 5 and get A-Spec and B-Spec level 40 within 7 seconds of each other, he would have a hard time believing that was legit on a trophy list if the person tried to do a dispute like that. However, if that was their only issue, I'm assuming if the person could show a video of their setup, where they could grind 2 consoles at once on the game, they'd probably get away with it. In the case of that game, the other thing would be the fact that I'm assuming any save files available for the game would have A-Spec and B-Spec level 40 done on them already, so if they had 2 separate save files on the game with A-Spec and B-Spec level 40 and the rest of their stats on both saves matched up, they'd probably also be unflagged in that case.

 

This situation would probably need to be handled on a case by case basis if anyone ever did make a dispute where they said that they used 2 of the same console while doing offline trophies on their account. At the end of the day, things like this are accessible to anyone who is willing to buy the extra consoles/controllers or people who have the friends to help them out with the trophies and while some people might say this is an unfair advantage, so is using multiple copies and consoles for online boosting, but nobody ever bats an eye at that. 

[AJ_-_808]

I'm glad I dont give a flying rat's behind about the leaderboards.  When 99% of your userbase cant really compete because the top 1% can be team accounts, trophy buyers, or multiple people running the same game & account simultaneously to cut down 'normal' time, then to me, it means your leaderboard is illegitimate anyway.

 

I wouldnt lump mp boosting into this because you still have to put in the effort to trigger the trophy requirements, and often put in more time and effort for other people in the boost (unless you get yours and leave).

[ProfBambam55]

2 hours ago, Sergen said:

The Gran Turismo 5 argument @MMDE brought up is more to do with the fact that plenty of people skip the grind on Gran Turismo 5 and get A-Spec and B-Spec level 40 within 7 seconds of each other, he would have a hard time believing that was legit on a trophy list if the person tried to do a dispute like that. However, if that was their only issue, I'm assuming if the person could show a video of their setup, where they could grind 2 consoles at once on the game, they'd probably get away with it. In the case of that game, the other thing would be the fact that I'm assuming any save files available for the game would have A-Spec and B-Spec level 40 done on them already, so if they had 2 separate save files on the game with A-Spec and B-Spec level 40 and the rest of their stats on both saves matched up, they'd probably also be unflagged in that case.

 

This situation would probably need to be handled on a case by case basis if anyone ever did make a dispute where they said that they used 2 of the same console while doing offline trophies on their account. At the end of the day, things like this are accessible to anyone who is willing to buy the extra consoles/controllers or people who have the friends to help them out with the trophies and while some people might say this is an unfair advantage, so is using multiple copies and consoles for online boosting, but nobody ever bats an eye at that. 

thanks for explaining the gt5 situation like this it makes more sense for some reason...

 

I can only speak for myself with regards to unfair advantage...i see boosting as being different than this multiple console idea...why?...well you can only boost one player's trophy per account with boosting unless the game has couch co-op, split screen, or online co-op in which case you might only need several controllers...so technically whether you own 2+ consoles/copies of a game or not the method would be the same for each active player and they all earn their trophies independently...the trophies would unlock in an order that is pretty sequential for whatever mode the main account is playing...what I'm trying to say is that whether 2 different people or one person with two consoles earns trophies, the method could be the same and time stamps very similar...so it's kind of equal competition for all...

 

the issue I have is with the idea of multiple consoles playing the same game is that one person could not be playing multiplayer, dlc, and the single player campaign at once in most (not sure if most but many) games that have trophies which can be earned in an odd order only by multiple people playing the same game at the same time...meaning two different people playing or one person playing on two consoles would need completely different methods and would end up with drastically different trophy orders as I've tried to highlight with the previous wolfenstein 2 example...

 

all that being said, if we compare boosting, turbo controllers, glitch exploits, gonespy use, etc. (things that are not flaggable) to completely normal play I think that the resulting timestamps wouldn't potentially be so drastically different...it might actually be hard to detect them...on the other hand, this method of having multiple people earning trophies on a common account (not like using offline share play) might result in trophy orders more similar to using save files, deleting earned trophies and continuing on with progress, time stamp editing, mod menus, etc. (things that are flaggable) than to normal play and could potentially be quite easy to detect...

 

I think because I see the potential of the latter vs the former above examples having more of an, let's use your, unfair advantage to the average gamer here and leaderboards, I'm willing to say they should indeed be flagged...again though, I should state that I'm ok with all uses of multiple consoles being acceptable as long as no one is removed from the leaderboards for this method and that a majority of the people here are also ok with it...and no, I'm not claiming to represent the majority or know what most people want the leaderboards to illustrate...just sharing my thoughts...

 

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Sergen]

1 hour ago, ProfBambam55 said:

thanks for explaining the gt5 situation like this it makes more sense for some reason...

 

I can only speak for myself with regards to unfair advantage...i see boosting as being different than this multiple console idea...why?...well you can only boost one player's trophy per account with boosting unless the game has couch co-op, split screen, or online co-op in which case you might only need several controllers...so technically whether you own 2+ consoles/copies of a game or not the method would be the same for each active player and they all earn their trophies independently...the trophies would unlock in an order that is pretty sequential for whatever mode the main account is playing...what I'm trying to say is that whether 2 different people or one person with two consoles earns trophies, the method could be the same and time stamps very similar...so it's kind of equal competition for all...

 

the issue I have is with the idea of multiple consoles playing the same game is that one person could not be playing multiplayer, dlc, and the single player campaign at once in most (not sure if most but many) games that have trophies which can be earned in an odd order only by multiple people playing the same game at the same time...meaning two different people playing or one person playing on two consoles would need completely different methods and would end up with drastically different trophy orders as I've tried to highlight with the previous wolfenstein 2 example...

 

all that being said, if we compare boosting, turbo controllers, glitch exploits, gonespy use, etc. (things that are not flaggable) to completely normal play I think that the resulting timestamps wouldn't potentially be so drastically different...it might actually be hard to detect them...on the other hand, this method of having multiple people earning trophies on a common account (not like using offline share play) might result in trophy orders more similar to using save files, deleting earned trophies and continuing on with progress, time stamp editing, mod menus, etc. (things that are flaggable) than to normal play and could potentially be quite easy to detect...

 

I think because I see the potential of the latter vs the former above examples having more of an, let's use your, unfair advantage to the average gamer here and leaderboards, I'm willing to say they should indeed be flagged...again though, I should state that I'm ok with all uses of multiple consoles being acceptable as long as no one is removed from the leaderboards for this method and that a majority of the people here are also ok with it...and no, I'm not claiming to represent the majority or know what most people want the leaderboards to illustrate...just sharing my thoughts...

 

 

 

It hasn’t been put to the test yet, as nobody has been flagged on this website and said they used multiple consoles on the same game to do two different tasks at once. Back when I did LittleBigPlanet Karting, I did turbo create mode on one PS3 but I finished the single player on the other PS3 while I was doing that. This wasn’t done to get the fastest possible time for the game because the time did get beaten when the same method was used but to its full potential. But if you looked at my time between 30 minutes of create mode and 24 hours of create mode, you’d see that those times are in line with what is expected. The method was achievable for any solo player as long as they have a turbo controller, or even a 2nd controller because I think it could be idled without a turbo controller and a 2nd PS3. A lot of people have these tools available to them as we speak. 

 

It was before dispute threads even existed when I did that, but I’ve been assured by staff that it wasn’t a problem. If I do get flagged, I could very easily show the method in action because I have 2 ps3s and TVs set up, but I can’t re-do the platinum because the servers got shut. I wouldn’t do something like this again, but in the case of that game, I’d already left Create mode to idle while I was asleep, then I thought it would be worth doing the single player trophies on my other ps3 instead of wasting the whole day doing nothing. In the end, all the waiting would have resulted in would be getting the platinum a day later and when I had invested the money in a 2nd PS3 and a turbo controller, why couldn’t I use that to save a day of my life? 

 

I expect anyone who has the resources to do anything like this to be able to prove what they were doing if they’re questioned. If they can do it once, they can do it again. It’s also not possible to do something like this for every game, because most games do have a linear story mode or a specific order the multiplayer trophies must be done in. 

 

I’ll also say that it wouldn’t make fastest times for any games that could be done like this impossible. Maybe impossible for people with 1 controller and 1 console, but individual things like how fast someone completes a multiplayer match and how fast they complete chapters for the game still play a part. LittleBigPlanet Karting simply had a minimum fastest time of 23 hours, 30 minutes if the person was idling create mode on one PS3 and did the rest on another one. Because the leaderboards already accept team accounts, it would be inconsistent for the site to not accept team efforts on individual trophy lists. As long as the team isn’t doing something that is completely impossible like winning an online match at the same time as losing an online match (since you can’t play online on the same account with 2 different consoles on the same platform), then I think it’ll remain okay to do this. As it currently is, it doesn’t necessarily fit the criteria of “impossible” and while people might say “it looks the same as someone who used a save”, people who use a save also make their trophies look the same as trophies that are deemed to have legit time stamps. 

 

I did also post about the LittleBigPlanet Karting Platinum on this website back when I got it: 

There has been nearly 2 and a half years for a member of staff to say what I did was flaggable. 

 

There are also other ways 2 of the same console could help with the same game. Imagine a game has a slot machine on it and you need to get 777 on that slot machine, so it takes a lot of luck, if you used 2 PS3s at the same time to roll that slot machine, you'd increase your chances of getting Lucky 7's. On Injustice 2, people use all their credits to buy as many motherboxes as possible to unlock Cat Call, the ability is completely luck based, but someone could also use 2 PS4s at the same time to buy motherboxes on the same account to increase their chances of Cat Call showing up. These are likely ways that people have even took advantage of their additional consoles, but nobody ever frowns upon that. Then there's the fact that this website uses PS4 and vita as the example of playing multiple consoles at the same time, some games share the PS4 and vita trophy list, so someone could be playing the game on their PS4 and on their vita at the same time, in-fact the game even promotes doing that at times by having cross-buy between those platforms. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Sergen

[starcrunch061]

17 hours ago, ProfBambam55 said:

i don't think we should allow people to play the same game at the same time for one account (because they could appear in an order that is not possible for one person to earn on their own...like poorly edited time stamps...detectable) but have no issues if several people play the game sequentially for the same account (because they appear the same as if one person earned them...i.e. like share play...or letting a friend/family member/neighbour/household pet/other person earn them for you...undetectable)...

 

This feels like a relatively simple fix to this problem. Team accounts can exist, but if people play simultaneously, it has to be on different games.

[MMDE]

8 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

This feels like a relatively simple fix to this problem. Team accounts can exist, but if people play simultaneously, it has to be on different games.

 

https://psnprofiles.com/100-club/1668-littlebigplanet-karting

 

I'm sure @Potent_Delusions is happy you're suggesting we give him a flag.  

[starcrunch061]

3 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

https://psnprofiles.com/100-club/1668-littlebigplanet-karting

 

I'm sure @Potent_Delusions is happy you're suggesting we give him a flag.  

 

No. Rules shouldn't be grandfathered in or anything. What was described is clearly legal at the moment. But it seems like something that should be made illegal moving forward.

 

EDIT: and before anyone says it, I recognize that ALL rules here have been "grandfathered in", since the leaderboard existed long after trophies were implemented. Let's not drag the conversation into a sea of trivia.

 

The point is, people know it's hard to see the difference between a team account getting timestamps out of order, and a single person getting timestamps out of order. I have no problem with the mods making judgment calls. But the entire conversation has been about getting judgment calls out of the equation.

Edited October 19, 2018 by starcrunch061

[ProfBambam55]

8 hours ago, Sergen said:

 

It hasn’t been put to the test yet, as nobody has been flagged on this website and said they used multiple consoles on the same game to do two different tasks at once. Back when I did LittleBigPlanet Karting, I did turbo create mode on one PS3 but I finished the single player on the other PS3 while I was doing that. This wasn’t done to get the fastest possible time for the game because the time did get beaten when the same method was used but to its full potential. But if you looked at my time between 30 minutes of create mode and 24 hours of create mode, you’d see that those times are in line with what is expected. The method was achievable for any solo player as long as they have a turbo controller, or even a 2nd controller because I think it could be idled without a turbo controller and a 2nd PS3. A lot of people have these tools available to them as we speak. 

 

It was before dispute threads even existed when I did that, but I’ve been assured by staff that it wasn’t a problem. If I do get flagged, I could very easily show the method in action because I have 2 ps3s and TVs set up, but I can’t re-do the platinum because the servers got shut. I wouldn’t do something like this again, but in the case of that game, I’d already left Create mode to idle while I was asleep, then I thought it would be worth doing the single player trophies on my other ps3 instead of wasting the whole day doing nothing. In the end, all the waiting would have resulted in would be getting the platinum a day later and when I had invested the money in a 2nd PS3 and a turbo controller, why couldn’t I use that to save a day of my life? 

 

I expect anyone who has the resources to do anything like this to be able to prove what they were doing if they’re questioned. If they can do it once, they can do it again. It’s also not possible to do something like this for every game, because most games do have a linear story mode or a specific order the multiplayer trophies must be done in. 

 

I’ll also say that it wouldn’t make fastest times for any games that could be done like this impossible. Maybe impossible for people with 1 controller and 1 console, but individual things like how fast someone completes a multiplayer match and how fast they complete chapters for the game still play a part. LittleBigPlanet Karting simply had a minimum fastest time of 23 hours, 30 minutes if the person was idling create mode on one PS3 and did the rest on another one. Because the leaderboards already accept team accounts, it would be inconsistent for the site to not accept team efforts on individual trophy lists. As long as the team isn’t doing something that is completely impossible like winning an online match at the same time as losing an online match (since you can’t play online on the same account with 2 different consoles on the same platform), then I think it’ll remain okay to do this. As it currently is, it doesn’t necessarily fit the criteria of “impossible” and while people might say “it looks the same as someone who used a save”, people who use a save also make their trophies look the same as trophies that are deemed to have legit time stamps. 

 

I did also post about the LittleBigPlanet Karting Platinum on this website back when I got it: 

There has been nearly 2 and a half years for a member of staff to say what I did was flaggable. 

 

There are also other ways 2 of the same console could help with the same game. Imagine a game has a slot machine on it and you need to get 777 on that slot machine, so it takes a lot of luck, if you used 2 PS3s at the same time to roll that slot machine, you'd increase your chances of getting Lucky 7's. On Injustice 2, people use all their credits to buy as many motherboxes as possible to unlock Cat Call, the ability is completely luck based, but someone could also use 2 PS4s at the same time to buy motherboxes on the same account to increase their chances of Cat Call showing up. These are likely ways that people have even took advantage of their additional consoles, but nobody ever frowns upon that. Then there's the fact that this website uses PS4 and vita as the example of playing multiple consoles at the same time, some games share the PS4 and vita trophy list, so someone could be playing the game on their PS4 and on their vita at the same time, in-fact the game even promotes doing that at times by having cross-buy between those platforms. 

and this is where we will likely agree and disagree on some things...first, let's look at the idea of "anybody could do it if they wanted to"...while I was working on the whitelist thread I wanted to be sure of the games that could be affected by hackers and which could not...i contacted a few hackers and a friend who works for a dev here in canada...i wasn't able to get clear answers for gta v and black ops 2 so I bought a 4th ps3 that fit the criteria of being able to jailbreak it....and this is exactly what I did...i purchased an e3 flasher, took this console apart, and set it up with the firmware/software necessary to run mods on it...i purchased 2 copies of black ops 2 and a 2nd one for gta v...i tested out some of the mod menus found on the net to see what was in fact possible...

 

i am not very technologically advanced so I would think that if someone followed the same guidance as I did, anyone could have access to a jailbroken console if they wanted to...i could argue that the same could be said for unencrypted save files and most things that are deemed as cheating here...does that make it ok to use these methods?...

 

i'm going to assume that we would both say "no"...but why shouldn't we allow those times on the leaderboards?...1 - is it because they give a really unfair advantage that is similar to not playing the game oneself?...2 - is it because not everyone could do it?...3 - is it because we are skipping the trophy requirements?...4 - is it the idea of outside tools being used?...or 5 - is it for other reasons?...if 1, then this falls true for all things that are currently flaggable and makes our unflaggable list fair...if 2, then I would argue that the flaggable list should be unflaggable since technically everyone has access to them...if 3, then debug menus and cross saves, amongst others, that unlock trophies should be flaggable...if 4, then turbo controllers and gonespy should not be allowed...if 5, all good and this might be a good place to discuss them...

 

I think playing multiple consoles on multiple platforms, for multiple games, or as offline share play is fine and different from multiple people playing the same game at the same time for one account...you still need to unlock the trophies in an order that one person could replicate on one console through normal play if they wanted to...

 

If we look at your examples, much like cfw use or team accounts, they might be very hard to detect and to come up with a proper rule that disallows them...a few possible reasons as to why cases where multiple people are playing a game simultaneously to earn trophies for a common account might not have been seen in disputes is : 1 -  the cheat team have not accepted these flags...2 - the average gamer has considered such methods cheating and hasn't performed them...it's also possible they are too difficult to detect and that if a person looked at such a list they wouldn't think "these timestamps are definitely cheated imo" which should be the criteria for flagging someone...i'm suggesting that if they do look obviously impossible, they should be flagged and that perhaps we should consider making them against the rules...clever use would go undetected as with all flaggable offenses here...improper use would result in a flag...it changes nothing really as far as how flags work now and who "gets away" with what...

 

1 hour ago, MMDE said:

 

https://psnprofiles.com/100-club/1668-littlebigplanet-karting

 

I'm sure @Potent_Delusions is happy you're suggesting we give him a flag.  

it's kind of an odd comment...not sure why we need to bring individual people into the discussion and speak on their behalf...i don't think rules should be made just for the convenience of one gamer or another... my goal is not to attack anyone just make things reasonable for everyone...I think as with rdr, games like these would inevitably be grandfathered...so we could say little big planet karting is fine or any game (like in sergen's post) that comes up before now where this has obviously been done...moving forward we could say this is a flaggable offense and work from there...i don't think it makes the cheat team's job any more difficult or easy...it's just applying another rule while analyzing time stamps that have been flagged...

 

again though, I think it's important to discuss both sides of the debate and that a majority agree to either put it on the flaggable list or not...this includes the opinion of the cheat team and sly of course who could veto the decision...i think many of us would appreciate hearing the reasoning behind such a decision and for me, that's what this thread is about...

Edited October 19, 2018 by ProfBambam55