TrophyHunterTyler

dokkanexpert's Dispute

65 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I would appreciate it if you guys told me you were going to change or delete a post I made that had some “offensive” things in it.

Edited by Spaz
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Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, mekktor said:

snip

 

There's always room for discussion about change, but there's a proper way to do that.

 

It shouldn't necessarily be what the community majority wants either. Technical limitations, ability to manage, overall balance, and other factors need to be considered.

 

Example: Individual A cheats 6 stacks of SoundShapes, and gets one flag...  Individual B Cheats 4 stacks of SS, and gets one flag, then cheats 2 more stacks later? Should they get one or two flags? However you answer, one of them could argue (successfully) their flags aren't fair.

 

 

Edited by B1rvine
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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, B1rvine said:

There's always room for discussion about change, but there's a proper way to do that.

 

It shouldn't necessarily be what the community majority wants either. Technical limitations, ability to manage, overall balance, and other factors need to be considered.

 

Example: Individual A cheats 6 stacks of SoundShapes, and gets one flag...  Individual B Cheats 4 stacks of SS, and gets one flag, then cheats 2 more stacks later? Should they get one or two flags? However you answer, one of them could argue (successfully) their flags aren't fair.

 

I'm not sure this is the right place for it, but what the heck. I think the rules should be be clear and specific, and drawn from some basic underlying principles. Like:

  • You must not modify OS or game software, or take advantage of others using modified software to earn trophies
  • You must use only save files created under your own PSN ID
  • You must sync the first earning of any trophies earned on a save file if you choose to continue using that save file

These rules should refer only to actions that you can take, and it should be easy to demonstrate why each rule is against the spirit of trophy hunting. The lists in the "What Constitutes a Flag" thread would still be helpful as guidance of the rules and how they're interpreted, but you should always be able to point to which basic rule was broken. For example, impossible timestamps wouldn't be against the rules (as is suggested in the "Things that are flaggable" section). Instead, those timestamps could be used as evidence that some other rule was broken. And in fact it doesn't make sense to have impossible timestamps as a rule, as what determines the correct order of timestamps in the first place? The rules of course.

 

I also don't think there should be rules that can't be explained by those basic principles. Like the "Sound Shapes rule", which basically says: "Don't do this one specific thing because we needed to add this rule in order to justify flagging you multiple times for that one thing." Point to one of the basic rules, or it shouldn't be flaggable.

 

Then separate to those rules, is the enforcement of the rules, which would factor in things such as the availability of evidence and the other things you mentioned like technical limitations etc. Just because you can't prove that someone broke the rules, or don't have the manpower to catch them or the website tools to flag them in a certain way, it shouldn't affect whether or not a rule was broken in the first place.

 

So for this dispute, and the idea of flagging only one game but enforcing that the rest be hidden, I can only guess that there is no way to flag a game without it counting towards the leniency limit? If that's the case, I would say that the later stacks should be unflagged once hidden, with the promise that they will each be re-flagged if they are ever unhidden. Whether that's an automatic process or not doesn't really matter. If they are unhidden at some point, then they are just waiting to be flagged again, just as they were in the first place before the lists were originally discovered and flagged. Looking at your example, I would say that Individual A should receive one flag for one instance of cheating, while Individual B should receive two flags for two separate instances of cheating. If they argue about what is fair, direct them to the clear and specific rules that led to those flags.

 

Back to this dispute (and others like it), I think that requiring all lists to be hidden, while allowing the person/account to remain on the leaderboards is a fair result for everybody. Let the other games on their profile speak to their credibility. If they are habitual cheaters, they will be caught for it eventually. I don't see the benefit in jumping the gun and removing them for their single mistake that led to multiple illegitimate lists.

 

Edited by mekktor
Words can be so confusing sometimes.
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4 hours ago, B1rvine said:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but I'm assuming you're talking about the phone PSN App's ability to send commands?  My response to that is, would a turbo controller be considered cheating? Same concept.

 

He is referencing my Remote Play guide for RDR2. In the guide I describe how you can use Remote Play as a free replacement for turbo controller.

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I find it interesting how people say that once you've completed a game on one region it means that auto-popping all the trophies on another region in seconds is legitimate. I know no-one is doing anything wrong as you're just using a feature but stop saying it's a legitimate platinum when it sure as hell isn't. You're choosing not to complete the game when you could just to gain a free platinum which ultimately bastardises the leaderboards.

 

@dokkanexpert, this is obviously causing you a lot of headaches, if what you wrote about your tours in Iraq is true then you could do without this drama, there are far more important things in life. I would just make a new account and start afresh otherwise this will stay with you while ever trophies and the playstation are a feature.

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Flags are flags and it sucks you got 5 at once but getting banned from the leaderboards isn't a big deal. You don't get any extra perks, money, or fame for being on them. You can still use everything else on the site.

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3 hours ago, FawltyPowers said:

You're choosing not to complete the game when you could just to gain a free platinum which ultimately bastardises the leaderboards.

 

No, it doesn't, because - and this is one of the, if not the main aspect(s) of legitimacy - everyone is free and able to do so.

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Hold on a sec, what is this crap? What the hell am i reading?

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4 hours ago, mekktor said:

snip

 

Interesting you say we should update the rules, since I've actually sent a draft to Mango to make the wording more clear just recently.

 

Anyway, I do feel the rules are very clear here, and other Sound Shapes cases. Autopopped lists without an original" seems like a specific rule to point what actions to avoid.  In order for autopopped lists to occur, you're already breaking another rule, use of save files, by default. Basically this one just clarifies using in game features after you already cheated isn't allowed, to avoid wannabe lawyers searching for a loop hole in the wording. But logically, its sound, they've already cheated prior to using a cloud sync.  Each time someone uses a cloud sync to autopop trophies, the prior action that occurred was use of a save file.

 

My example regarding technical limitations and etc was simply suggesting that changing already established rules shouldn't always be a majority opinion vote, and I pointed to that as one reason. This has nothing to do with enforcement.

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Are there a lot of posts missing in this thread?

 

Anyway, it's clear that the lists are illegitimate. I agree with Mekktor that 5 flags seems overly harsh in this particular example. I also agree with B1rvine that changes in established should not be left simply to majority vote in a wide variety of cases. Consensus is always better in that regard.

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8 hours ago, mekktor said:

Snip 

Thing is though, what happened is already covered in the rules for what is a flag. 

 

Cross-save games without an original list - If a game supports the cross-save function, and all lists for that game are auto-popped without there being an original list which has feasible timestamps, then all cross-save lists for that game can be flagged

 

Commiting a crime without knowing it is a crime doesn't mean the person can't be held accountable. Extreme example but it fits.

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@TrophyHunterTyler aka dokkanexpert:

 

I've done my best to re-answer your questions, explain your flag, and why your issue is not an exception to get your flags lifted.  I'll close this thread now, but feel free to ask any questions if you have them whenever. However, I hope you're done complaining about the same situation repeatedly, since its been addressed multiple times. 

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