This game and philosophy (spoilers)

[wackt1]

 I did spoil myself a while back and watched markiplier's walkthrough of the game. The story is very depressing, we don't have the right to kill WAU tbh since its basically following instructions, it did keep alive a lot of the "humans" in the aftermath, abet with horrifying results. Simon's first copy had the best deal, dying before any of this happened, and are the humans on the ark really humans? 

Edited December 6, 2018 by wackt1

[big_bob002]

I could talk about this game all day.  SPOILERS below.  Read on at your own risk. 

 

You don't really kill the WAU.  You poison it with uncalibrated gel so that it cannot control what is happening on the base anymore.  Ross comes after you either way because he needs to destroy Simon 3 so that the WAU cannot recover his body and find a way to reverse the process.  In the end Simon 3 is still there so it's hard to say what happens on Earth after the game. 

 

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what Catherine was saying in her room about "unfolding scans" and such.  The technology started as "flat" scans and only when Catherine and Reed found the WAU's Vivarium did Catherine figure out how to make true scans.  Catherine uploaded a true scan of Imogen Reed into her digital world with "Catherine and her capsule buddies" but the true scan was too real and couldn't coexist with the older, flat scans. 

 

Since Simon is a legacy scan his flat scan had to be modified to work as Simon 2-4.  I believe this was a clever way for Frictional to give a scientific reason why Simon never understood what would happen.  It's also nice to think that Simon 4 on the ARK will probably never understand what really happened and live as Ignorance is Bliss. 

 

There's a funny ethical debate here.  Catherine never lied to Simon but she certainly deceived him.  When Simon plugs Catherine into the final Pilot Seat she says she'll never get used to that.  Simon says "after this you won't have to".  Catherine says "riiiight".  She holds the inflection on "i" just long enough to demonstrate that she knows Simon doesn't get it but she doesn't say anything.  She cannot risk Simon knowing what will happen because after the way he flipped out in Omicron "you're f*****g disgusting" she has to be concerned that he will not launch the ARK if he figures it out. 

 

So she doesn't say anything.  For the greater good of humanity, and at the terrible sacrifice of Simon 3.  However she ultimately saves Simon since he lives on in the ARK.  Catherine completely f****d Simon 3 but ethically made that deception to save Simon 4.

 

Finally, there's a fairly prominent fan theory that Carthage Industries is still in business.  There's actually a lot of evidence to support this.  Carthage made some of the enemies Simon encounters.  Carthage launched the signal that overloaded the black boxes at Omicron and killed everyone (remember it's the WAU's protocol to protect humans).  Carthage has other sites underwater.  Carthage created Simon 2 and activated the Pilot Seat that woke him up at the start of the game, since the Pilot Seat needs an Omni tool to be active. 

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by big_bob002

[wackt1]

I thought the virus just disabled WAU. So the monsters and mockingbirds are still active then, right? As for Simon 3, I read a fan fic somewhere that he managed to turn Catherine 2 on again. 

 

I thought they were all uploaded to the ARK. So did Catherine just delete the older scans and just put in new ones?

 

Wouldn't Simon 4 remember what happened, since Catherine explained to Simon 3 about what happened to Simon 2? I know Simon 3 had a hard time piecing things together, but wouldn't Simon 4 eventual piece things together on what happened to the two previous copies?

 

True, but Simon 3 kind of fucked himself in the end as he caused Catherine 2 to short circuit, leaving him for the most part, trapped and alone on the station. Catherine did make the right choice though as that if she didn't, the ARK would never had made it. 

 

As for Carthage, why would they be still in business? I thought most of the humans were dead or crippled by WAU. I did know that there was sabotage involved committed by I think 4 double agents, right? Though with Simon 2, I think it's more likely that Simon 2 was created by, unintentionally or not, by the WAU. @big_bob002

I thought the virus just disabled WAU. So the monsters and mockingbirds are still active then, right? As for Simon 3, I read a fan fic somewhere that he managed to turn Catherine 2 on again. 

Though now that you mentioned the ARK. I think it's just prolonging the inevitable, and brings up the question if they are even human anymore. All the humans there, are biologically dead, though their minds still exist. So what makes a human, biology, or the mind, or both? Plus, there is space debris to contend with, so like space rocks would still be the end of them. 

 

Also, I wonder how big the comet was that hit Earth is.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by wackt1

[big_bob002]

Yeah in theory the mockingbird and monsters should still be active.  Hopefully if the WAU does not get ahold of Simon 3 it will not be able to expand and reach the surface.  Unless you believe that the WAU was getting better at making humans by combining dead bodies with robotics (ie: make more in the style of Simon 2).  You still have to contend with rotting flesh but I suppose the WAU could find other ways.  It's open ended. 

 

The only person that would have been uploaded twice to the ARK was Catherine.  There's been speculation on if the newest version overwrites the exisitjng version or if they are both in there.  Should be an ackward conversation. 

 

As a side note, if you look at the timeline the people at Tau were left to starve to death.  Months later the ARK team comes through and Catherine confirms she scanned the people of Tau.  The Tau scans must have arrived in the ARK, saw the people that left them to starve and been like "wtf a holes".  Catherine even comments on it being an interesting conversation or something like that. 

 

It's hard to say if Simon 4 might eventually figure out Simon 3 got left behind.  Simon 3 had such a hard time with the concept even after experiencing it twice that it leads me to believe that he wasn't capable of grasping certain concepts based on the origin of his scan. 

 

I'll dig up the Carthage stuff from Reddit tomorrow.  I have some more condensed versions of the facts that make it look like Carthage is still in business. 

 

I'll throw in the Punic War references as well. (The game has a bunch of references to the Punic Wars, a real world battle between Rome and Carthage circa 200 bc).  You might find it interesting. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by big_bob002

[Alaquia]

14 minutes ago, big_bob002 said:

It's hard to say if Simon 4 might eventually figure out Simon 3 got left behind.  Simon 3 had such a hard time with the concept even after experiencing it twice that it leads me to believe that he wasn't capable of grasping certain concepts based on the origin of his scan. 

 

some people said that simon 3 was just just stupid by not realising that he can't be on the arch, but while I was playing I was shocked as well (by the moment and by realising that I just forgot about this). in his situation you can hardly blame him for beeing shocked and frustrated even though he should have known what will happen. I'm sure Simon 4 will figure it out eventually, but will it change / mean something?

 

the story still haunts me

Edited December 7, 2018 by J3dP89

[big_bob002]

THE CARTHAGE CONSPIRACY 

 

*About 2/3 of this info was compiled by the community and I am just organizing it. 

 

Who created Simon? 

 

As evidenced by the robot that you deal with in Upsilon the WAU didn't have control over the creatures in the game that it supposedly created.  Who then prepared Imogen Reed's body?

 

A human would have had to remove her head and prepare her body to make Simon 2. The door is sealed from the outside and the vent is closed off. Simon has to break the glass to get out of the room.

 

The data logs show that only 2 people were left at Upsilon: Amy Azzaro and Carl Semken. We find both of their bodies later. When you approach the room with the Omnitool we hear a man screaming. Inside the room is a body missing the head. Who is this person? The common theory is that he works for Carthage Industries and that he prepared the body.

 

When you 1st wake up the computer connected to the Pilot Seat is inactive.  After you get the Omni tool and plug it in the computer says "Pilot Seat activated".  An Omni tool is needed for scan uploads.  There is no Omni tool in the room when Simon wakes up.  

 

Likely this Carthage Operative took the Omni tool with him after uploading Simon but before Simon woke up, and had it with him before dying to the robot. He sealed the door and was to observe Simon but Simon broke the glass and turned on the power waking the robot. 

 

On that same terminal it is revealed that on May 9, 2103 someone or something tried to access the terminal remotely but it failed due to the servers being offline and power suspended.  Exactly 1 year later to the day Simon 2 is created.  Imogen Reed got the power back on but when the player tries to send emails at other computers in that building we get confirmation the servers are still down, meaning the WAU would not be able to access the terminal.   

 

Julia Dahl

 

There are 3 Carthage employees secretly on the staff: Julia Dahl, Mark Sarang, and Johan Ross. If you look at a timeline of events it goes like this: The Ark project is started. Sarang commits suicide for Continuity. The ark team takes the ark through Omicron. If not before then, at that point Julia Dahl should know that Sarang is dead.

 

After the ark team goes into the Abyss, only the lifeless body of Johan Ross arrives on the Climber. Yet in Dahl's audio logs she's talking about the WAU trying to restore the body of Johan Ross and she is recorded as saying "I will report in what I find" and "I could use some advise if you can get through". Who is she trying to talk to? Her 2 secret coworkers are confirmed dead. Is she trying to communicate with Carthage?

 

In Julia Dahl's written logs she talks about the evacuation attempt of Tau. She has some personal notes in which she is talking about the Climber being ordered to stay at Omicron and not go back into the Abyss. This means that there will be no further evacuation attempts of Tau. Yet Dahl has a personal log in which she says that the penalty is harsher than she expected but "I'll take it. As long as Ross is left to study the WAU at Alpha". Why would she be happy that the remaining people at Tau are going to starve to death, including Johan Ross? It could be because she values the WAU, but if Carthage was wiped out on the surface that doesn't make much sense. Unless Carthage is still in operation? 

 

Mark Sarang's notepad

 

This notepad is in Mark Sarang's nightstand: 

 

 

 

-It shows a graph on the left that seems to show a drop in power that might happen AFTER a comet hits.

 

-2 sites are crossed out and the only 2 sites that aren't accounted for in that list are Alpha and Omega. Omega was confirmed wiped out by the comet. Alpha was taken over by the WAU and flooded.  Again leading to speculation that this document was filled out after the comet.

 

-It seems to confirm other facilities, possibly besides Pathos 2. Possibly also underwater and still functioning.

 

-It might confirm that Haimatsu played a larger role than the game tells us since it is stamped for approval by them. It might also confirm that Haimatsu was aware of site Alpha since Alpha is crossed out. 

 

-Was it stamped for approval after the comet hit?

 

-The signature is not Johan Ross, Julia Dahl or Mark Sarang. It also doesn't appear to be anyone from Pathos 2. Who signed it?

 

Was the base setup in preparation for the comet? 

 

In Catherine's room are her personal logs in which she talks about the Vivarium being "designed in an almost primitive way. As if it was designed for the WAU to access". She also says that the Pilot seats already have the electromagnetic drums needed to do brain scans. The Haimatsu logo is on the Pilot seats.

 

This leads me to conclude that Carthage and/or Haimatsu designed the technology to allow the WAU to steal the scans since before it's inception into Pathos 2.  Quite possibly after the comet was discovered, Carthage integrated the Pilot Seats, then the WAU, and created the Vivarium as a fail safe in case the comet hits. 

 

Omicron

 

The WAU's primary directive was to protect human life. It doesn't make sense that the WAU shrieked, overloading the blackboxes and killing everyone at Omicron. We hear Julia Dahl scream and die immediately after she mentions Raleigh Herber going into the Abyss to find site Alpha. The overload of the blackboxes was likely a consequence of this statement. However, the WAU would have to kill people to protect itself which is against it's protocol. It does however make sense that someone working for Carthage and listening in would be willing to sacrifice the lives of the remaining Omicron staff to protect the WAU.

 

These inconsistencies all seem to point to Carthage or Haimatsu still being in operation. The notepad could also make it look like the whole game is some kind of experiment, but that's the only thing I've seen mentioned that would hint at that.

Edited February 20, 2019 by big_bob002

[big_bob002]

THE PUNIC WARS

 

Credit to this video for getting me started on this. 

 

 

In our real life history Carthage was a country of power in northern Africa that had a long history with Rome. It culminated in 3 battles called the Punic Wars from 264-146 BC. Most of these references focus on the 2nd Punic War from 218-201 BC.

 

-In Julia Dahl's audio logs on her computer in Omicron she says "Delenda Est". "Carthago Delenda Est" is Latin for "Carthage must be Destroyed". It was used by Cato the Elder of the Roman Senate during the Punic Wars.

 

-In Simon's apartment is a statue of Ombra Della Sera, which is a tourist attraction for the city of Volterra in Italy. Volterra provided supplies to Rome during the Second Punic War.

 

-There are books on the book shelves in Simon's apartment and Munshi's office about Roman laws, Roman politics and historical hindsight.

 

-In Simon's bathroom is toothpaste with ENI on it. Eni S.P.A. is a company headquartered in Rome and they have expanded their oil operations into northern Africa. The Punic Wars concluded with Rome invading the city of Carthage in Northern Africa.

 

-In Simon's apartment is a poster of the Beige Noise Tour. There's some cities listed and one is Seville, Spain. The Battle of Ilipa between Rome and Carthage took place in Seville during the 2nd Punic War. Historians often consider it one of Scipio Africanus' greatest victories over Hannibal of Carthage, lending weight to the Poul Anderson Sci fi story mentioned below.

 

-One of the thank you notes to Jonsy in the Upsilon Comm room is from Cadiz, Spain. During the 1st Punic War Cadiz provided support to Carthage general Hannibal Barca until it was later captured by Rome in 206 BC.

 

-One of the thank you notes in the Upsilon Comm room is signed by James Bloom. James J. Bloom is a writer who wrote about Roman history and specifically the Punic Wars.

 

-On the notepad where you get the code to enter the back in Munshi's office is written down "Delphi Method". Delphi Method is a process in which a panel of experts sit in a roundtable discussion on a given topic trying to reach a consensus to form mutual understanding. We don't hear about anyone in the game other than Munshi and Berg working on the brain scan technology during those early stages so Delphi Method doesn't make much sense. It could potentially be a reference to Delphi, Greece. Delphi is a famous temple in Rome where they would pray to the gods, and there is some history during the Punic Wars.

 

-One of the locations during the simulation where you try to get the security code from Brandon Wan is Versailles. This is a strange location in that it's very specific compared to the other locations (beach, wood cabin, etc.). The Treaty of Versailles was after WW1 and heavily favored the Allied Powers. Some historians have called the Treaty of Versailles a "Carthaginian Peace" in the similarity to Rome completely wiping out Carthage at the end of the 3rd Punic War.

 

-The clipboard in Mark Sarang's nightstand that is stamped for approval by Haimatsu has the #218 circled at the bottom. The 2nd Punic Wars started in 218 BC.

 

-One potential reference for Delenda Est could very well be the short story Delenda Est, which is part of the Time Patrol series written in the 1960's by Poul Anderson. The story involves 2 time travelers going back in time to kill 2 Roman generals during the 2nd Punic Wars and cause Carthage to defeat Rome during the 3rd Punic Wars. The protagonist of the story goes back in time to kill the 2 time travelers and revert history back to our current timeline in which Rome defeats Carthage.

 

You can draw the parallel that possibly Carthage Industries sent Julia Dahl, Mark Sarang, and Johan Ross back in time to implement and test the WAU in the one place that would survive the comet.  

 

Spiritual succesor?

 

In Simon's apartment is a book called Mapping Minds by Albert Isaacson.

https://twitter.com/BigBob002/status/1008764097343746048?s=19

I googled this writer and I do not believe he is a real author. However, I found a writer name Albert L. Isaac who wrote 2 books: Endless and Utopia Revisited.

 

These books take place in the future and have some themes very similar to Soma.

Edited October 24, 2019 by big_bob002