Knightmare_1985

Previously Banned profiles changing names

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None of what @B1rvine suggest is actually needed. @Sly Ripper just need to make sure he checks their past name record when their profile is updated.

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4 hours ago, B1rvine said:

@Knightmare_1985 I can remove the account from the leaderboard, with the reasoning being he utilized the name change feature and noting his previously flagged games. I've done it with other accounts. Only Sly Ripper can implement the site code where it's automatically removed via linking of accounts, and where the system automatically recognizes previously flagged people. If I manually remove him by just applying flags, that really doesn't solve the problem of the feature not being there yet and doing it for all accounts I'm not as "aware" of. I share your frustration since its a lot of extra work flagging people twice (or more) now... Again I'm sort of using this account to point at to see if the feature is completed or not.

 

I'll take this moment to suggest a new leaderboard policy. 

 

We should really change the leaderboard policy to one flagged game justifying removal. We should also implement the policy that hidden trophies disqualifies you from the leaderboard. My justification of such a change:

 

One flag should be the standard since this reflects the rules similar to other trophy sites, it's what more professional sports policies are, and closer follows the strict standards of Guinness (which uses PSNP for their records). It's very frustrating to see known cheaters on the top of the leaderboards who have one / two flags and smartened up from before. There are also cases where CFW is 100% confirmed one time, and this should be automatic removal.

 

As for the hidden games being justification for removal, smart cheaters will just hide the games immediately after messing up, multiple times over the years, and they're never flagged. Again, you also don't see professional sports teams with "hidden records" that affect their overall standings. Hidden games also creates a false sense of a true record, for people that display "fake" 100% accounts. Finally, cheaters are hiding games, changing their name, and this would just be much easier to deal with them in this manner.

 

Please consider this change @Sly Ripper

 

Rebuttals to expected responses:

 

"I shouldn't be removed because I don't want to show this game!!!" 

The game is part of your true history, it should be reflected in your ranking. See the analysis with sports teams.

 

"I was hacked on BO2, GTA V, or did FUEL / SOCOM long ago."

These can be re-reviewed or specific games can be removed from the one strike policy. 

 

"I'm forced to have hidden trophies due to Sony nontrophy upload issues, or have an exceptional reason"

It can be implemented where the flag team can "lift" the hidden trophy exception.

 

"I only cheated one game and am suddenly off the leaderboards. WAAAAAH"

You're a cheater. You don't belong on the leaderboards. Read up on Billy Mitchell.

 

I know this is controversial and many people won't like it, but its the right thing to do.

This is a pretty shitty way of dunking on people who don't want to be anal with what they play.

As you can see on my profile I've hidden loads of trophies, sometimes I even unhide them and 100% them if I change my mind later on. Such is life. However, I use this site as a backlog manager (I hide my trophies when I have no intention of going back to them) but I also enjoy seeing my name going up the ranks for the games I DO end up finishing. I'm not ever gonna get anywhere near the top, but that's fine, I enjoy what I do, how I do it. What you're suggesting is incredibly elitist and also encouraging people to have some unhealthy gaming habits if they did hide those games because they have some kind of compulsion - and that is unfortunately a scary amount of people on this site. Like MMDE said a simple name check is all that's necessary here and the cheaters get found out sooner or later. I, and probably a load of other people, would leave this site if something so ridiculous was done because let's be honest, there is little consistency in trophies even from Sony themselves and there is little regulation in quality, consistency and fairness from the actual company in question here, and this suggestion does more to shit on people who don't want to play in a certain way (your way by the looks of it) than undermine the cheaters on the site. Hiding games is something Sony themselves allows.

Your "exceptions" also appear to be completely arbitrary (20 trophies?), and hiding games penalises your ranking, not the other way round. Your suggestion is getting traction here (mostly from people who do bother with 100% profiles) but putting this into practice would seriously undermine this site, and would reduce the legitimacy of this site, not increase it.

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5 hours ago, DaivRules said:

Some people like to hide trophies just to fuck with people who care too much about other people’s hidden trophies.

 

😂 Guilty as charged.

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6 hours ago, B1rvine said:

"I'm forced to have hidden trophies due to Sony nontrophy upload issues, or have an exceptional reason"

It can be implemented where the flag team can "lift" the hidden trophy exception.

 

 

If there is ANY way this could be done, I would name my first born after you. 

 

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I'm gonna start hiding random trophies now for sure lol.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, SkyMason said:

snip

 

This has nothing to do with elitism.

 

Generally speaking, if you want ranked statistics for comparison, your entire history or score should be available and fully transparent and 100% complete. Your successes, your failures, what you've started, what you've abandoned, etc. Not to mention, it will make trophy statistics more accurate, allow an accurate representation of true overall global rankings, applying the same standards to everyone, and it will close existing loopholes that are actively exploited. As stated, being tracked =/= being ranked. This isn't suggesting people are being banned, marked for cheating, or anything else, just marking them ineligible to compete until prerequisite criteria is met. If you're hiding trophies to make some mechanism easier, like a backlog, there's plenty of other ways to do that.

 

I'm not sure how this will promote unhealthy gaming habits. I think the opposite. People who hide their trophies for whatever OCD they're concerned about are just dealing with their problem by avoidance of their trophy reality, and avoidance is an unhealthy way of dealing with anything, rather than accepting their issues and moving on or working towards improvement. What'd these people do before trophy hiding was even an option?

 

I agree Sony needs to improve things, but their quality process has nothing to do with what I'm addressing, full transparency and accounting for everyone who wants to be considered for rankings. If you want to talk about other general leaderboard improvements, that's another discussion.

 

I should have probably explained exceptions better. Its real sole purpose would be to allow people who have forced hidden trophies due to Sony not uploading specific games trophies on their servers which would cover things like these games, or to allow very specific exceptions that may affect everyone where there are impossible trophies glitched for everyone, ie Dragon Fin Soup. Finally, if there's an extremely unusual circumstance, those can be granted on a case by case basis. I do understand your stance, but I think your case is highly unusual.

 

Just out of curiosity, you say you use hidden trophies so that your showing list is available for your backlog games you want to play? Why not just make a spreadsheet? Or hide the games you're not interested in on the PS4 library / remove games from PS3/Vita lists? Or just ignore the games in your list you know you won't go back to but still take advantage of their points? There's plenty of ways to do this. Hypothetically, if a backlog feature was implemented on this site, would you then unhide all your trophies? Judging by the amount of trophies you've got hidden, your rank would jump about 10,000 spots if unhiding everything. You say you like to see yourself climb that ranks, that would surely be a way to do it. Do you really think it would be a bad thing to use your incomplete games added score to your overall list? Also, do you agree with one strike instead of three for the majority of games (not the CoDs, GTAs, Fuels, Socom's) since this seemed be focused on the hidden game aspect?

 

I'm also not firm on everything I've suggested. Maybe having an additional leaderboard to people with unhidden trophies only would suffice, or allowing suspected (known cheaters) to be investigated like professional sports, or maybe a limit of 100 hidden games instead of zero. Etc. I just know its really depressing that 100% confirmed cheaters are allowed to stay on the leaderboard rankings.

 

EDIT: I should probably clarify being removed from the leaderboard for hiding games would be temporary, not permanent with how I've envisioned it. If you unhide your trophies, you're ranking would be automatically restored.

 

Edited by B1rvine
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@B1rvine I like what you have mentioned regarding the Sony problem.  I myself have 3 games that refuse to sync with the Sony servers.  I have no problem showing the screenshots of my account with the games in question if it would remove the blue H from my account. 

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1 minute ago, Lorajet said:

@B1rvine I like what you have mentioned regarding the Sony problem.  I myself have 3 games that refuse to sync with the Sony servers.  I have no problem showing the screenshots of my account with the games in question if it would remove the blue H from my account. 

 

That's not what I'm really addressing here, but I think this should be option too.

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Posted (edited)

53 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

snip

Spreadsheet is cumbersome to create and manage (for me) and doesn't match the presentation and ease of use for this site, something I've paid for specifically for this functionality, and hiding games from my PS4 list obviously doesn't do anything for me, as I play games I have no interest in getting all the trophies in (fighting/sports games) pretty regularly. That also doesn't work for PS3/vita obviously, which I use just as much.

 

If there was a backlog feature to this site then I would perhaps consider it, but it's obviously a bigger undertaking than what you're suggesting to do with the leaderboards now, and tbh something I can't see being done at all considering the rate of updates on this site. If I could have my backlog, and the games I've completed, separate from the games I've tried over the years, and maintain a separate list, then sure why not, I wouldn't even be having this conversation. Unfortunately that probably isn't ever going to happen.

 

I don't disagree with the spirit of what you're saying, it would probably give the leaderboards some more legitimacy, but if you are blacklisting such a commonly used feature that is used for a lot of reasons besides avoiding being caught cheating, then you're going to undermine the popularity of the site big time. Going for the nuclear option would require a lot more maintenance and oversight of specific games for the cheater removal team if you want to make this completely legit. I'm not sure there is a proper understanding of how much more work going for this option would require if people would need manual acceptance to hide trophies to be on the leaderboard, this is just going to lead into a huge clusterfuck if there isn't a system beforehand for Sly to automatically whitelist specific games and trophies, instead of the case by case system we have now.

 

I have no interest in climbing the ranks with games I have no interest in finishing, I know I'd shoot up by quite a bit if I just had my full list on there, but it would be pointless for me tbh because I have/had no intention of completing them.

 

Everyone knows that being off the leaderboards is more or less a sign that you are a cheater by association, and it's gonna piss off a lot of people and make them go elsewhere if the minority is appeased at the expense of the majority who don't want to pursue "perfection" and just want to do things by their own terms. Again, I can see people (for good reason) agreeing with your suggestion, but IMO it's a case of being "wrong for the right reasons" as well as completely ignoring the practical aspect of what you're suggesting. It won't work given the reality of how this site is maintained and updated, and it'll push traffic to competitors aren't as elitist (don't want to use this word but can't think of an alternative) in how they treat the membership of this site.

 

edit: aware that my grammar/wording is shit but I'm too tired to clean this up, my bad

Edited by SkyMason
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7 hours ago, B1rvine said:

@Knightmare_1985 I can remove the account from the leaderboard, with the reasoning being he utilized the name change feature and noting his previously flagged games. I've done it with other accounts. Only Sly Ripper can implement the site code where it's automatically removed via linking of accounts, and where the system automatically recognizes previously flagged people. If I manually remove him by just applying flags, that really doesn't solve the problem of the feature not being there yet and doing it for all accounts I'm not as "aware" of. I share your frustration since its a lot of extra work flagging people twice (or more) now... Again I'm sort of using this account to point at to see if the feature is completed or not.

 

I'll take this moment to suggest a new leaderboard policy. 

 

We should really change the leaderboard policy to one flagged game justifying removal. We should also implement the policy that hidden trophies disqualifies you from the leaderboard. My justification of such a change:

 

One flag should be the standard since this reflects the rules similar to other trophy sites, it's what more professional sports policies are, and closer follows the strict standards of Guinness (which uses PSNP for their records). It's very frustrating to see known cheaters on the top of the leaderboards who have one / two flags and smartened up from before. There are also cases where CFW is 100% confirmed one time, and this should be automatic removal.

 

As for the hidden games being justification for removal, smart cheaters will just hide the games immediately after messing up, multiple times over the years, and they're never flagged. Again, you also don't see professional sports teams with "hidden records" that affect their overall standings. Hidden games also creates a false sense of a true record, for people that display "fake" 100% accounts. Finally, cheaters are hiding games, changing their name, and this would just be much easier to deal with them in this manner.

 

 

I'd understand removing someone with one flag where you know 100% they deliberately cheated, but not for other cases like online modders and accidents like using multiple systems but forgetting to sync one. If you want one flag to be the limit, first there would need to be a whitelist in place and maybe even different level of flags for each circumstance.

 

As for hiding games, I'm not convinced that should disqualify someone from the leaderboard. That is an option that Sony allows for a reason. If cheaters are exploiting it, that sucks but that's not a reason to ban it here. It's the classic "Ban knives because people get stabbed" argument. But anyway, let's say this was implemented, then looking at your exceptions, why shouldn't someone be able to have their entire hidden games list verified as legitimate in order to stay on the leaderboards? Why should there be any limit on this at all? You seriously want to remove someone from the leaderboards because they hid the 3 trophies that their little brother earned on their account?

 

Also you say that " tracked =/= being ranked" but if someone is removed from the leaderboards (whether for a single flag or a hidden game), aren't they effectively removed from the stats from all of their games? If someone hides Hannah Montana or has their Call of Duty trophies popped against their will, then won't every other trophy they've earned legitimately drop down one achiever? How does this lead to a more true and accurate record on the site? Or am I misunderstanding either how this currently works or how you propose the new implementation to work?

 

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Posted (edited)

@SkyMason Well, we'll probably agree to disagree. 

 

Ultimately, I think there are ways to get what we both want, but they'd have to be implemented. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to hide games from our view only, where others can still see them. I don't think that would be too hard to implement adding an extra button in our admin area that restores an account with hidden games either. 

 

Again, my suggestion isn't only to weed out cheaters. I do firmly believe leaderboards should be based on an completely open profile to review for scrutiny. If people want a ranking, they should undergo a strict process to verify legitimacy. Nobody should really have a problem with this. if they just want to track their games, then it doesn't matter. The competition sites already remove you off of various leaderboards when hidden trophies exist, by the way.

 

1 hour ago, mekktor said:

I'd understand removing someone with one flag where you know 100% they deliberately cheated, but not for other cases like online modders and accidents like using multiple systems but forgetting to sync one. If you want one flag to be the limit, first there would need to be a whitelist in place and maybe even different level of flags for each circumstance.

 

Already covered this, we'd just not apply flags to the GTAs / CoDs. A whitelist would be better though. I also agree with different levels of flags, but thats probably making it too complex.

 

1 hour ago, mekktor said:

Let's say this was implemented, then looking at your exceptions, why shouldn't someone be able to have their entire hidden games list verified as legitimate in order to stay on the leaderboards? 

 

That's sort of my thought process, if someone can verify they didn't cheat, we could hit a button to restore them. At the same time, I don't want to have to do the process multiple times for a single user. For this reason I feel a some limit should probably be imposed. Really, i was intending it for the games that can't be sync'd though. I still believe someone's ranked statistics should be complete and compared to other complete profiles. I'm not looking to make anything user unfriendly, but I do want to deal with accounts with 10000+ hidden trophies, where I have a record of their hidden cheated games already, with two flagged games on file, who login to NGU every other day.

 

Quote

How does this lead to a more true and accurate record on the site? Or am I misunderstanding either how this currently works or how you propose the new implementation to work? If someone hides Hannah Montana or has their Call of Duty trophies popped against their will, then won't every other trophy they've earned legitimately drop down one achiever?

 

Some site work will probably need to be done, regarding achiever counts, now that you mention it. But I'm thinking more about people that have 100% completion with 1000 hidden trophies. In Hannah Montana's case, they could opt to unhide it. In CoD's case, probably just wouldn't approve a flag. Again, the white list is needed here. 

 

Edited by B1rvine
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5 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

@SkyMason Well, we'll probably agree to disagree. 

 

Ultimately, I think there are ways to get what we both want, but they'd have to be implemented. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to hide games from our view only, where others can still see them. I don't think that would be too hard to implement adding an extra button in our admin area that restores an account with hidden games either. 

 

Again, my suggestion isn't only to weed out cheaters. I do firmly believe leaderboards should be a privilege, and not an automatic right, and under standards based on a complete and open profile, among the other benefits I gave. If people want a ranking, they should undergo a strict process, if they just want to track their games, then it doesn't matter. The competition sites already remove you off of various leaderboards when hidden trophies exist, by the way.

My only response to that is if you do this overnight I sincerely doubt you'll get the intended effect. There needs to be many, many updates to how cheated games/gamers are logged/flagged before this becomes plausible, as well as offering some kind of alternative to people who don't really want to have FIFA 10 on their account because their nephew loaded it up while they weren't around. It's just an over the top response to a simple problem (the names), and when you're using language like "I do firmly believe leaderboards should be a privilege, and not an automatic right" you're kinda veering into the realm of perhaps taking this a bit too seriously.

 

Unless both Sony and this site change a lot of things, then there isn't really any good reason to penalise people for hiding trophies, considering how imperfect the system is anyway. What you're suggesting would only make sense if Sony had the same quality control for trophies, as well as a complete overhaul of this site, neither of which looks likely.

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15 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

@SkyMason Well, we'll probably agree to disagree. 

 

Ultimately, I think there are ways to get what we both want, but they'd have to be implemented. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to hide games from our view only, where others can still see them. I don't think that would be too hard to implement adding an extra button in our admin area that restores an account with hidden games either. 

 

Again, my suggestion isn't only to weed out cheaters. I do firmly believe leaderboards should be a privilege, and not an automatic right, and under standards based on a complete and open profile, among the other benefits I gave. If people want a ranking, they should undergo a strict process, if they just want to track their games, then it doesn't matter. The competition sites already remove you off of various leaderboards when hidden trophies exist, by the way.

 

 

 

 

I agree with B1rvine’s posted thought. This site’s leaderboard is monitored by the site’s admins and only exists because the creator of the site made it. The presence of any member therefore is subject to conditions. Despite any sense of shared ownership that people may feel based on their presence on this leaderboard, it can be altered at anytime by its creator or anyone he appoints.

 

This is just the way it is.

 

I do believe though and want to add that because there is a transactional element to this website with premium memberships that exclusion from the leaderboard and rules regarding it should be consistent and routine. 

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17 minutes ago, SkyMason said:

[There needs to be an] alternative to people who don't really want to have FIFA 10 on their account because their nephew loaded it up while they weren't around.

 

Yeah, agreed. As I said, I'm not looking to make this user unfriendly, but I don't want to hear from the same person every week, "oh my brother / sister / nephew / pet goat has added 100 trophies to my account this week AGAIN. Can I get another exception please?" That's really what I'm aiming to limit.

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Posted (edited)

42 minutes ago, VoidVictory said:

I agree with B1rvine’s posted thought. This site’s leaderboard is monitored by the site’s admins and only exists because the creator of the site made it. The presence of any member therefore is subject to conditions. Despite any sense of shared ownership that people may feel based on their presence on this leaderboard, it can be altered at anytime by its creator or anyone he appoints.

 

This is just the way it is.

 

I do believe though and want to add that because there is a transactional element to this website with premium memberships that exclusion from the leaderboard and rules regarding it should be consistent and routine. 

That's a loose reading of what was discussed. I'm saying it would be unwise to make this change without significant updates to how this site tracks and deals with these things, as well as the effect it would have on the more "casual" community that uses this site's services. At absolutely no point has anyone suggested Sly isn't free to do what he likes, just that it probably wouldn't be taken well if not done properly, and that it would take a lot more work to do well. Both of these things are probably not in the owner's best interests.

25 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Yeah, agreed. As I said, I'm not looking to make this user unfriendly, but I don't want to hear from the same person every week, "oh my brother / sister / nephew / pet goat has added 100 trophies to my account this week AGAIN. Can I get another exception please?" That's really what I'm aiming to limit.

Sure, but it was more an example of just how arbitrary and silly a thing that can mess up a profile. Sometimes it's just completely out of our hands, and I think if this rule change went ahead it would promoting standards that are probably a bit too exacting. Thousands of hours of grinding can be undone in an instant, MP lobbies can be hacked, etc. We can't predict these things, and I don't think we should have or expect the kind of oversight needed to make sure hundreds of thousands of users are hiding their games for the "right" reasons. It really just sounds too complex, and will only make the average user less likely to enjoy using this site.

Edited by Beyondthegrave07
Cleaning up.
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Posted (edited)

 

6 minutes ago, SkyMason said:

That's a loose reading of what was discussed, HAL. I'm saying it would be unwise to make this change without significant updates to how this site tracks and deals with these things, as well as the effect it would have on the more "casual" community that uses this site's services. At absolutely no point has anyone suggested Sly isn't free to do what he likes, just that it probably wouldn't be taken well if not done properly, and that it would take a lot more work to do well. Both of these things are probably not in the owner's best interests.

There is no need for name calling or sarcastic responses to posts. I simply read his thought and agreed with it. I did not agree with you.

 

It is fine to have discourse on this site and disagree, but it is important to remember that being on this site is a privilege and not a right.

 

I did nothing to insult you or target you in my post. In fact, my post didn’t even mention you. Please treat me with the same respect.

Edited by VoidVictory
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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, VoidVictory said:

There is no need for name calling or sarcastic responses to posts. I simply read his thought and agreed with it. I did not agree with you.

It is fine to have discourse on this site and disagree, but it is important to remember that being on this site is a privilege and not a right. 

My response seemed completely reasonable and I dealt specifically with what you said. I don't know why you keep repeating the privilege thing like a mantra because it's unrelated to what I said - the owner is free to do what he likes, just as well as people are free to not agree to not agree with these changes and go elsewhere. B1rvine was giving his take and I was giving mine, this forum is specifically for feedback and that is exactly what's happening here. If anything your response came across as a little bit condescending.

Edited by Beyondthegrave07
Cleaning up
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Just now, SkyMason said:

Outside of "HAL" (a little joke, you must be aware of how you sound when you write like that) my response seemed completely reasonable and I dealt specifically with what you said. I don't know why you keep repeating the privilege thing like a mantra because it's unrelated to what I said - the owner is free to do what he likes, just as well as people are free to not agree to not agree with these changes and go elsewhere. B1rvine was giving his take and I was giving mine, this forum is specifically for feedback and that is exactly what's happening here. If anything your response came across a little condescending.

I get the reference and I just said I don’t appreciate it. I don’t appreciate being likened to a robot by a stranger that insults my ability to write with proper grammar and speech. 

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We are aware of the issue with this. Closing.

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