Game of Thrones - last season, episode comments - SPOILERS -

[BG_painter]

4 hours ago, Gibbo_0113 said:

Well that settles it, im reading the books

You won't regret it! The first book and the first season imo is the best adaptation from the book ever. It's 95% accurate. Then after the second book/season they started to mess up with their "ideas" ?

I really wish they started building this madness thing in a few season not just out of the blue. For exemple:
1.We have one season of dany coming back, fighting the night king and losing sor jorah, then after that sansa finds out about jon being a targarien and removes the support from the north to dany betraying dany, and the lords of winterfell follow her.

2. we have another season of dany fighting the iron fleet and the golden company only with her army and jon snow, she looses one dragon and misandai, and then tyrion betrays her by letting jaime go.

3. then she becomes mad and burns cersei and kings landing.

 

If it was gradual I think it would be easy to swallow.

 

Also, I h8ed how Cersei and Jaime died. They fucked up Jaime's character arc. It was pretty much ridiculous.

[Dantares24]

The last scene with Arya and the horse was really well shot. I haven't seen this mentioned much, but one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse is Death, who rides a pale horse. It's not going to end well for Dany.

[StarFang7]

Well Tyrion just shot up on the death prediction list ?. Also Dany had visions of Kings Landing covered in ash so this was always an idea the show had. The show runners discussed under different circumstances Dany never would have ?. 

[BG_painter]

17 minutes ago, StarFang7 said:

Well Tyrion just shot up on the death prediction list . Also Dany had visions of Kings Landing covered in ash so this was always an idea the show had. The show runners discussed under different circumstances Dany never would have . 

this vision:
 

 

[matigrosso91]

I think we all can agreed that the main problem with the series is the rushing to end it, not the facts itselfs. Yes, they always hinted Dany ended like this, but they could handled it waaay better. Like @BG_painter said, they could've simply developed this in more episodes.

 

- Season 7 with ten episodes, focus on the Night King arc. Even the last episode could've been the Battle of Winterfell: that way, you ended that arc in a more satisfying way and leave a powerful cliffhanger to the last season.
- Season 8 with ten episodes, focus on the Last War and Dany's descent to madness.

Martin told (again) that "the major events will be pretty much the same in the books". Mad Queen Dany is not a Benioff & Weiss invent, but they just didn't handled it well. And the same applies with the rest.

[djb5f]

This season is obviously much too rushed but they did foreshadow some of Dany's lust for power.  She has been consumed with being on the iron throne for so many seasons now and roasting Varys is in line with her past rule of fist actions (burning Samwell's family for not bending the knee).

 

That she is threatened by Jon's claim makes complete sense.  What takes a leap of faith is that after she had cleared won, she still went on the rampage of killing all the villagers.  She is going through with the "rule be fear" edict so I suppose it is not THAT big of a stretch.   And she is a Targ, mental health issues abound.

 

Jaime and Cersei's ending was a little underwhelming but hey, maybe they somehow survived it like Arya did all of those times.  Not likely, but it would be cool, if they made it out on that boat after all.

 

Other quick hits:

Tyrion used to be so wise, maybe all the boozing has made him less sharp?

Jon Snow is getting a rough edit (emasculated), maybe that changes in the finale

Drogon clearly hit up the PEDs

 

[TheLakota]

1 minute ago, djb5f said:

Drogon clearly hit up the PEDs

 

Relax, he got a TUE from USADA so he's clear. Or maybe it was tainted supplements, I don't know.

[MooseSketts]

54 minutes ago, StarFang7 said:

Also Dany had visions of Kings Landing covered in ash so this was always an idea the show had. The show runners discussed under different circumstances Dany never would have.

 

I had forgotten about the vision and a couple people I spoke with brought it up.  I am pleased that it tied into the series (sometimes stuff like that gets lost).  I got to wondering though - Is Dany really going to be sitting at the Iron Throne?  Yes, the ceiling was missing and the room was destroyed in her vision and people are saying that the snow is ash, but she never actually sat on the throne.  Hell, she didn't even touch it.  I wonder if the snow signifies something else... like a northerner sitting on the Iron Throne and ruling... you know, someone like Jon Snow since he is the true heir.

[merciful84]

15 hours ago, matigrosso91 said:

I'm sad. I'm really sad. I get it, the madness of Targaryen and so, but Dany didn't deserve this ending. She became the tyrant, like the ones she swore to destroy. Seven seasons being a hero (regardless being merciless in some cases), to become villain in five episodes.

And that, just to begin. This chapter is very hard to swallow.

 

I agree with this 100%

 

I have yet to hear or read an explanation of her actions that makes any coherent sense. If the writers wanted to go down this road, they could have done a better job taking us down her trip to madness. It comes across like the producers were going for a "Red Wedding" type of shock value rather than tying the story up in a way that makes sense. During the past seasons, a lot of the audience (including myself) were shocked by the extent that the other villains went to for power but not really surprised much by the person who did it.

 

And as far as "this person" and "that person" close to Dany dying, this isn't the first time she's lost people close to her but didn't decide to go all Anakin Skywalker on everyone. Targaryen or not, severe mental illness in someone shouldn't just make its grand appearance in a well developed character during the final season of said character's show.

 

I'm not going to crap on the entire season like I've seen and heard a lot of other folks doing because I have been enjoying it up to this point...just not the sudden change in Dany's personality. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by merciful84

[Miles_Warren]

Oh dear! I knew from the very first episode of this season that they were going to try and assassinate Daenery's character to make Jon look good but this....this is too far. ? I don't think I've ever felt so angry at a tv show before. And it isn't just ruining Dany's character just so Jon has a valid reason to claim the Iron Throne. It isn't. It's everything about this episode. From the underwhelming Cleganebowl to Jaime and Cersei's character arcs ending in the most stupid, forgettable way. As some people suggested, it would've been more plausible to build Dany's madness over the course of a few episodes (rather than the half episode they did i in). I'm also upset that the Unsullied just followed Dany into randomly killing innocent people and soldier's that had surrendered. The writers actually did the impossible - they've sullied the Unsullied. Talk about character regression.

 

Ugh..I have to go away and let this episode digest before I comment any further. Thank God there is only one episode left because I am done with this series.

 

[damon8r351]

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about the arm candy prediction I made. The way they're taking is far sillier.

[TheLakota]

1 minute ago, merciful84 said:

I'm not going to crap on the entire season like I've seen and heard a lot of other folks doing because I have been enjoying it up to this point...just not the sudden change in Dany's personality. 

 

Is it really so sudden, though? The only thing that's changed for me is perspective:

 

From the beginning we're invested in Daenerys because she's introduced as a young girl bound by marriage to a foreign man and culture. Perspective.

 

• She was raped and forced to walk barefoot across a desert, and yet we didn't question her sanity.
• She ordered the execution of Mossador, which in turn empowered the Sons of the Harpy to rise up and begin their guerrilla campaign. Hundreds if not thousands are slaughtered, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She led a foreign horde that raided and pillaged innocent villages, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She's buried people alive and even burned a slave trade to a crisp after selling him one of her dragons in exchange for the Unsullied, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She sacked and conquered three cities without putting into place a proper government to replace the one she overthrew, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She burned men alive simply for not kneeling, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.

There is no more evil left, and yet Daenerys still continues her conquest; she's no longer the lesser of two evils, and characters in the show are finally realizing this. Perspective.

 

I've known Daenerys was batshit crazy for a few seasons now, and my wife has never liked her as she refused to buy into her line of reasoning for the things she has done/does. The reason people are unable to come to terms with her "sudden" change is because they refuse to see how the writers manipulated their perspective for the entire series.

[djb5f]

8 minutes ago, damon8r351 said:

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about the arm candy prediction I made. The way they're taking is far sillier.

 

Jon Snow has been the arm candy this season, totally emasculated.

 

Daenerys has always been power hungry with a near singular vision of being on the iron throne.  Nothing has changed here.  Now she is even more threatened by Jon's popularity and decided she must "rule by fear".  She gave it some thought and said wtf, let's burn it to the ground!  Leap of faith buying it but not totally out of character and she is a Targ, a family full of mental illness.

Edited May 13, 2019 by djb5f

[damon8r351]

1 minute ago, djb5f said:

 

Jon Snow has been the arm candy this season, totally emasculated.

 

No, I mean, they're doing something different like I suspected they'd never do. Bravo for doing that. Too bad they felt the need to do it this way though. Kind of a slap in the face.

[merciful84]

1 minute ago, TheLakota said:

 

Is it really so sudden, though? The only thing that's changed for me is perspective:

 

From the beginning we're invested in Daenerys because she's introduced as a young girl bound by marriage to a foreign man and culture. Perspective.

 

• She was raped and forced to walk barefoot across a desert, and yet we didn't question her sanity.
• She ordered the execution of Mossador, which in turn empowered the Sons of the Harpy to rise up and begin their guerrilla campaign. Hundreds if not thousands are slaughtered, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She led a foreign horde that raided and pillaged innocent villages, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She's buried people alive and even burned a slave trade to a crisp after selling him one of her dragons in exchange for the Unsullied, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She sacked and conquered three cities without putting into place a proper government to replace the one she overthrew, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She burned men alive simply for not kneeling, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.

There is no more evil left, and yet Daenerys still continues her conquest; she's no longer the lesser of two evils, and characters in the show are finally realizing this. Perspective.

 

I've known Daenerys was batshit crazy for a few seasons now, and my wife has never liked her as she refused to buy into her line of reasoning for the things she has done/does. The reason people are unable to come to terms with her "sudden" change is because they refuse to see how the writers manipulated their perspective for the entire series.

 

• She also fell in love with the Drogo (not rationalizing rape but just saying...)
• That wasn't insanity, just bad decision making. She wouldn't be the first to do so...see Tyrion and Varys from this past episode
• What season was this?
• THEY WERE SLAVERS!!!
• Again, not insanity. Just being green to having power.
• Makes sense in terms of instilling a sense of fear to those you plan to rule. She gave them the option of submission and they challenged her on her promise of death for not doing so. She had to prove that she is a woman of her word - not insanity

"No More Evil Left"???? Please name another character on the show who SUCCESSFULLY destroyed an entire kingdom! And we can ignore their surrender...

 

And maybe you and your wife did pick up on certain things with Dany but I'm saying it shouldn't have been so subtle up to this point. Geoffry, Ramsey, Cersi, the Night King...all did things that shocked and disgusted us but the show was very up front about what they were.

[TheLakota]

8 minutes ago, merciful84 said:

She also fell in love with the Drogo (not rationalizing rape but just saying...)

 

So what are you saying?

 

9 minutes ago, merciful84 said:

• That wasn't insanity, just bad decision making. She wouldn't be the first to do so...see Tyrion and Varys from this past episode

 

Hard disagree. She wanted to be Billy Badass and make a point with Mossador and it blew up in her face.

 

10 minutes ago, merciful84 said:

• What season was this?

 

The very first one, after she'd fallen in love with Drogo.

 

11 minutes ago, merciful84 said:

• THEY WERE SLAVERS!!!

 

What difference does it make? She reneged on her business transaction with a "bad" guy by burning him horribly. Sure, it was great to see and I cheered her on, but still. Perspective.

 

13 minutes ago, merciful84 said:

• Again, not insanity. Just being green to having power.

 

 

So she's both crazy and incompetent then. In all seriousness though, I'd hardly call her ignoring the plight of innocents as they starved in the streets indicative of one being new to the game. Again though, perspective.

 

16 minutes ago, merciful84 said:

• Makes sense in terms of instilling a sense of fear to those you plan to rule. She gave them the option of submission and they challenged her on her promise of death for not doing so. She had to prove that she is a woman of her word - not insanity

 

Perspective, perspective, perspective.

 

Daenerys wants it all, no matter the cost.

 

“Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? One should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it is much safer to be feared than loved.” -- Machiavelli

 

We're arriving at totally different conclusions because our perspective differs on a few things. I find that fascinating.

[AJ_-_808]

Except she nodded when Tyrion told her about the bells meaning they surrender and begged her to spare the city if the bells ring. She acknowledged and implied she was on the same page, just to do a 180.  She was SANE up until that point, only targeting the military positions.  There was no cause and no explanation for it.  It was hack job writing at its finest.

 

Even worse was grey worm and the unsullied.  They aren't mindless slaves anymore, they're supposed to be able to think for themselves.  Slaughtering innocents and unarmed soldiers that surrendered was way out of character. 

 

Overpowered dragon, resurrection of the dothraki, complete uselessness of the 2nd sons, iron fleet, city guard, and the lol "upgraded" kings guard.  The "biggest episode ever" was a completely 1sided fight.  This was a bust and truly a shame the writers rushed and butchered the season.

Edited May 13, 2019 by AJ_-_808

[merciful84]

6 minutes ago, TheLakota said:

 

So what are you saying?

 

 

Hard disagree. She wanted to be Billy Badass and make a point with Mossador and it blew up in her face.

 

 

The very first one, after she'd fallen in love with Drogo.

 

 

What difference does it make? She reneged on her business transaction with a "bad" guy by burning him horribly. Sure, it was great to see and I cheered her on, but still. Perspective.

 

 

 

So she's both crazy and incompetent then. In all seriousness though, I'd hardly call her ignoring the plight of innocents as they starved in the streets indicative of one being new to the game. Again though, perspective.

 

 

Perspective, perspective, perspective.

 

Daenerys wants it all, no matter the cost.

 

“Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? One should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it is much safer to be feared than loved.” -- Machiavelli

 

We're arriving at totally different conclusions because our perspective differs on a few things. I find that fascinating.

 

• I'm saying she ended up falling in love with the guy - I don't think that leads to burning an entire city full of innocent people
• Not really. She wrestled with the idea before doing so. It was a flawed attempt to establish some sort of law and order with the old powers no longer being in place.
• That wasn't her doing, it was Drogo's, before learning how to influence his actions. Which actually indirectly caused his death. She convinced him not to kill the witch and well we know the rest...
• I don't know - taking young men away from their families, castrating them, robbing them of any real identity, physically abusing them...nope, no real difference there ?? . She reneged on her business transaction....you mean she outsmarted human trafficers at their own game? I'd hardly call any of that "city burning insanity"
• I would call that more incompetent at that point. Again, we're talking about someone who just found their strength and was still learning about seizing power. That doesn't make her crazy, just unseasoned.
• Well murderous insane people, usually don't give folks an opportunity not to die before killing them...very much unlike what we saw last night.

 

The Machiavelli quote proves my point. That's not insane, its philosophical approach ruling.

 

I'd agree to an extent, I just fail to see how any of the examples you've provided could be interpreted as insane or be any inkling as to how a person committing those actions could burn an entire kingdom down when presented with more options.

 

 

[TheLakota]

I'll have to rewatch again tonight with the misses (I cheated by watching alone and suffered greatly for it), though I do remember a distinct pause before she finally -- grudgingly, in my eyes -- acquiesced. A bit hazy on it though upon first watch her body language reminded me of Sansa during her "promise" to Jon. 

 

Grey Worm did upset me though. Was fairly disappointed in the writing for that character last night, along with Jaime.

 

While I do feel this season has been rushed, I don't think it's been a bust. I'm still enjoying it (just not as much as I once did). 

 

P.S. Dothraki were clearly visible in the fourth episode, were they not? Seem to remember one removing pieces from the war map. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by TheLakota
At work, so please forgive extended pauses.

[AJ_-_808]

1 hour ago, TheLakota said:

 

• She was raped and forced to walk barefoot across a desert, and yet we didn't question her sanity.
• She ordered the execution of Mossador, which in turn empowered the Sons of the Harpy to rise up and begin their guerrilla campaign. Hundreds if not thousands are slaughtered, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She led a foreign horde that raided and pillaged innocent villages, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She's buried people alive and even burned a slave trade to a crisp after selling him one of her dragons in exchange for the Unsullied, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She sacked and conquered three cities without putting into place a proper government to replace the one she overthrew, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils.
• She burned men alive simply for not kneeling, and yet we didn't question her sanity because she was the lesser of two evils

 

Are you certain she was raped by Drogo? My memory is a little foggy, but I seem to remember either in the book or the show, that she semi consented.  She even turned him away the first night until she was more comfortable/willing if I remember correctly.  It could be my memory or could just be the writers screwing it up.  Either way, victim of circumstance doesn't make her insane.

 

The other things are definitely more about her exacting revenge on people she deemed evil and learning the ropes to trying to lead the horde and govern these cities.  Gotta remember, the horde is savage and male dominated - it was going to take time to re-train their ways.  She made mistakes, but you saw her learn from and even explain her actions, which to a point, made some sense.

 

There was no explanation for burning the city. There was no buildup (whole she was flying in the air) to her suddenly snapping.  It was cold and calculating. She had won, it was overkill and totally unnecessary and just shit writing.

 

Edit

I think they mentioned there were a few remaining Dothraki, but not nearly what was shown in that initial charge after the gate came down.  They made it a point to mention the Dothraki and Unsullied forces were nearly depleted from the night king fight.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by AJ_-_808

[djb5f]

The Lannister army was never much let's be honest, some religious zealots easily overpowered it and imprisoned Cersei.  How the heck could that have happened.

 

I was not expecting much of a fight, even with only 1 dragon remaining.

[Gommes_]

On 11.5.2019 at 9:44 PM, AJ_-_808 said:

 

And what if that's how it ends? Dont like it? Go write your own story.

God's forbid the author write his story the way he wants without being bombarded by SJWs.  

 

Considering the madness runs in Dany's genes, it wasnt completely unexpected.  Also runs in John's genes, so why not wait and see

 

Well D&D write their own story. And I think there is something you don't really understand. It's not the story per se that many don't like, it's the script. Dany turning mad - fine. Dany turning mad in 3 episodes - awful. Shows like Breaking Bad for instance took their time and gave us almost 3 seasons until the main character became some sort of villain. In season 5 part 2 he admitted for the first time that he liked what he did. The audience needs development in order to believe certain changes and events. And I am sorry but GoT became really bad in that regard.

[AJ_-_808]

1 minute ago, Gommes_ said:

 

Well D&D write their own story. And I think there is something you don't really understand. It's not the story per se that many don't like, it's the script. Dany turning mad - fine. Dany turning mad in 3 episodes - awful. Shows like Breaking Bad for instance took their time and gave us almost 3 seasons until the main character became some sort of villain. In season 5 part 2 he admitted for the first time that he liked what he did. The audience needs development in order to believe certain changes and events. And I am sorry but GoT became really bad in that regard.

 

I think we're agreeing on the same point.  That quote was in response to someone being a little bit (in my opinion) overly dramatic about Dany becoming arm candy instead of taking the throne.  I agree, the writing is to blame, not the story. The writing went downhill and ruined the story a bit, but not to the point of "I felt I wasted 20 years of my life" (quoting the person I was responding to in that post).

[Gommes_]

Just now, AJ_-_808 said:

 

I think we're agreeing on the same point.  That quote was in response to someone being a little bit (in my opinion) overly dramatic about Dany becoming arm candy instead of taking the throne.  I agree, the writing is to blame, not the story. The writing went downhill and ruined the story a bit, but not to the point of "I felt I wasted 20 years of my life" (quoting the person I was responding to in that post).

 

Okay, then I am sorry for that ?

[Deadsh0tdoubleG]

Oh, boy. This might be a long post, but here it goes. I hope you forgive me.

 

I think we can all agree that the direction of this season has been top notch. Sure, episode 3 had that "too dark" issue, but that was it. Every episode has been well directed so far. It couldn't have been otherwise, given the tens of millions they spend for each episode. Music-wise, this season has been very good as well.

 

However, the writing is bad. REALLY bad. To the point of making no sense at ALL. Before I start with my complaints for this episode, I will begin by disregarding the (awesome) books. The link between them and the show has been severed long time ago (take Dorne's role for example or Lady Stoneheart etc.). Therefore, since Season 5-6, I am judging the show on its own.

 

To begin with, we have the Varys issue. I do not mind that they killed him off, but we never got any resolution about what he saw in the flames what the voice in the flames said when he had his "stones" cut off and burnt (unless they do sth in the last episode which I highly doubt, given the fact that they are rushing everything). It has been mentioned at least a couple of times in the show (like that scene with Kinvara in Meereen (Season 6, I think it was the episode where Hodor, RIP ?, dies), so they must had plans for this and they just scrapped it due to the time constraints. I would also include the "no screaming" death that Varys had, but I would be nitpicking.

 

Then we have the Golden Company. Again, in the show, they mentioned them enough times for them to be important, plot wise (colluding with the Iron Bank, taking over Highgarden from Olenna etc). Guess what, they killed them off in a minute or two (which would make the total of minutes they were on screen to about 3 minutes). What about the Iron Fleet? They were apparently shooting from behind land mass in episode 4, without being noticed by two dragons, Danny or anyone else (I guess they didn't care to scout ahead, but w/e). This episode, they got "nerfed" by the awesome duo (D&D) while Drogon, who in episode 4 was too afraid to take them on, got "buffed" and finished off in a matter of seconds, so to speak.

 

Next we have Arya. I get it, she is skillful enough, given the training she had. Maybe she also had an enormous amount of luck. However, even those two things shouldn't be enough to keep her alive this episode, given the situation. Buildings falling apart? Fire all around? Being literally stomped? She survived them all, somehow. I guess Sam gave her some of that good plot armor stuff! ?

 

I don't want to spend too much time with Jaime. Everyone can see that they completely scrapped off his redemption arc which was being built for 7 seasons, without any reason. If his love for Cersei was enough for him to flip his switch, then why make him leave King's Landing in the first place? Just for Brienne (another fan service scene)?

 

Lastly, there's Danny. The show has foreshadowed her transformation for many seasons, sure (although, she hadn't hurt anyone innocent until now). But, the execution was bad. Missandei was enough to trigger her, I guess. The bells, Jon's romantic rejection, Sansa's disrespect or the whole "nobody loves me, nobody respects me, wahhhhhh" (which should be understandable, given the fact that nobody knew her until she showed up with the dragons, being bossy and acting like a spoiled child) weren't though. They were showing us her having the Red Keep on her sights. So, one could assume that she will go straight to it, deal with Cersei and Ser Gregor and be done with it. Why did they have her murdering everyone on the way (potentially even allies, like Arya)? It was way out of character IMHO, given she is the Breaker of Chains and all (like she said when she executed Varys earlier). Remember, she also apparently agreed to the surrender plan, but OK, one can say that she was lying, if she had already flipped the switch by then.

 

At least, the Cleganebowl (GET HYPED!) was executed well enough in my opinion, even if they only included it for fan service reasons. It didn't add too much to the plot, it just served as an ending for Sandor and Zombie Mountain (and Dr. Franken...sorry, Qyburn).

 

All in all, I think this episode was the tip of the iceberg called "Season 8's bad writing". Plot armors for almost every character, regardless of their importance (remember when people, even main characters used to die like flies in the past seasons?). Story arcs being concluded with such a haste that made them feel like they weren't important enough (mainly the Night King/White Walkers one, which was being built up since the very first seconds of the first season). They are undoing things that they have set in motion in the previous seasons without any reason. For me, the show has grown to become more of a spectacle while it kinda forgot what made it so popular in the first place, which is the story plot. And I think the reason behind this is a combination of D&D's willingness to distance themselves from the books, in order to make their own thing, along with the lack of source materials for almost half of the seasons.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Deadsh0tdoubleG