Game of Thrones - last season, episode comments - SPOILERS -

[AJ_-_808]

2 hours ago, damon8r351 said:

 

Don't throw that acronym at me. This isn't about social justice, it's about my frustrations with thinking A Song of Ice and Fire might've been just a little different than the hundreds of other fantasies I've read or played, and my sinking feeling that it isn't after so long.

 

You're the one that termed it "young male wish fulfillment fantasy bullshit", not me.  Their are a multitude of stories intertwined, including super assassin Arya, Sansa ruling winterfell, Cersei ruling Kong's landing, Dany's struggle... you chose to shit on the 1 remaining lead male character (excluding jaime)

[matigrosso91]

Apparently, Martin and the writers of the show said once more that the main events will be the same between GOT and the books. Regardless, Martin also said that he's sad because he wanted more seasons, and about the books, some particular secondary characters will definitely had different endings. I hope he ends the books someday lol.

Some theories I read:

- Dany burns the shit out of King's Landing and became the Queen. But there'll be a time jump and the series would end like the war began: a Stark-Baratheon rebellion against a Targaryen, with Sansa and Gendry leading the insurrection against Daenerys.
- Dany dies, Cersei dies, Jon dies, and the Iron Throne is destroyed. The Seven Kingdoms would be ruled by a Council in a "democratic" way.

- Almost the same theory than before, but the Council would chose a ruler, and that new queen is Sansa.
- Jon kills Dany, but refuse the Throne and go beyond the Wall to live with the free folk.

[damon8r351]

1 hour ago, SinisterPledge said:

 

 

You keep trying to boast and "educate" with more or less every post you make but it doesn't work, sadly. Yes, you've read books. Well done. I truly hope everyone knows Odin isn't created by Marvel or Final Fantasy. Furthermore, I don't doubt you've read the ASOIAF-series, nor do I dispute your claim. Instead of throwing seemingly unfounded predictions at us (which I believe to be little more than bait at this point - in which case you have succeeded. Congrats!), please elaborate on why you think there is any possibility that Dany will be reduced to arm candy for Jon? Don't say "I've read lotsa books you seeee" or list the series for a third time. Tell me, what indication do you have that Dany (as she is now, with all character development in mind), will allow herself to be sidelined by Jon and turned into a happy, smiling housewife? This series has provided so many strong female characters who refuse to stay in the shadow of the other sex, and I don't see Dany being any different. Besides, Jon has explicitly said he doesn't want the crown, and there is no reason not to believe him. He would be crushed by the weight of it. 

 

tl;dr:

Please provide some arguments instead.

 

 

My precedent? History and ties between feudalism and the laws of primogeniture. Westeros is very much based on Norman England. Aegon The Conqueror is a stand in for William The Conqueror. The Targaryen Dynasty is a stand-in for the Angevins and the Plantagenets. The Dance of Dragons between Aegon II and Rhaenyra was a stand-in for The Anarchy between Stephen of Blois and the Empress Matilda. The Red Wedding was inspired by an event in medieval Scottish history. Yorks and Lancasters = Starks and Lannisters. And so on. The point I'm trying to make here is that Westeros is very much a medieval European country with a fictional setting, therefore, the eldest male child inherits. Or you go scratching for the nearest male relative that fits the bill.

 

Let me preface this by saying that my concerns lie more with the show than the books. However, I see the show as a preview of the direction the books are going to take.

 

In the books, the eldest male child of the Targaryen line descended from the king is Aegon VI. He's been hanging with the Golden Company. This is the baby everybody thought was killed by Gregor Clegane by dashing his head against a wall, except there was a switcheroo. When people learn of his existence, he will be the recognized heir to the throne, not Dany. She even muses on this fact at one point. Personally, I think he's going to do something stupid and get himself killed. That's the setup so far. Which leaves Jon as the last heir, something we don't know yet only going by the books, but is practically spelled out so far. Medieval Europeans liked eldest sons on the throne, or the nearest equivalent, he's going to end up there even if he's dragged. Very few people who are rooting for the return of the Targaryens know about Aegon VI, and nobody knows about Jon except Ned (who's dead) and Howland Reed. Dany is who they know. But once the people who matter know about Aegon or Jon, it's over. Dany will become superfluous, no matter what she's done. Those overtures from the Dornish are going somewhere else. And if she presses the point, I bet she's going to get killed.

 

In the show, Jon is Aegon. It's over, he's the male heir. Unless he does something stupid and gets his fool ass killed, he'll be on the throne even if he doesn't want to. Or he'll refuse it, Dany will take it, and get her ass killed because there's a male heir (see The Anarchy). But I don't think anybody's going to get killed. Martin's killed a lot, but killing of the main protagonist is a slap in the face to the audience. Which is why you never see it. But I don't know how far he's willing to take his one trick. Dany's either going to get killed in the ultimate slap in the face, or she's going to be arm candy because Jon's the heir.

 

And yes, there are strong female characters in the book. Take a look at how they're treated with an objective eye: Cersei is a distinctly unsympathetic character who never gets what she deserves for what she's done (despite countless male characters getting it), Brienne is treated like a punchline half the time despite her best efforts, Sansa and Dany are treated like chess pieces at every turn, Catelyn outright tells Jon she wishes he was dead at one point, Lysa Arryn is batshit crazy and gets brushed aside by Littlefinger, Asha Greyjoy's character arc was "I'm going to be queen! Nope, haha 'Queen of Salt and Rock' my ass!"; Arya may be the one female character that actually fits that mold I'll concede, but she's gone through snuff film levels of hell. Martin likes putting his female characters through hell, have you noticed that yet?

 

Tell you what. Let's reconvene here after the last episode and compare notes. I have my ideas who it's going to go, you have yours. I can admit I'm wrong, let's see if you can do the same if it comes to it.

Edited May 11, 2019 by damon8r351

[Sinastran]

33 minutes ago, damon8r351 said:

Yikes.

 

 

Martin likes putting his female characters through hell, have you noticed that yet?

As opposed to his male characters? 

 

 

 

And sure. It's funny the way you put that, considering how our previous run-ins have turned out, but rest assured I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. Let's see if Dany is reduced to arm candy for Jon Snow. See ya in a few weeks.

[AJ_-_808]

1 hour ago, damon8r351 said:

 Martin likes putting his female characters through hell, have you noticed that yet?

 

You seem incredibly 1 sided. The headless starks and Theon's penis would like to have a word with you.

 

Edit

 

Also:

Cat Stark was a strong leader until betrayed with Rob.

Sansa is growing into a strong leader, from being sheltered. 

Arya is what she is, for better or worse.

 

The Dornish vipers were accomplished fighters until they lost.  It happens to both men and women.

 

 The high garden women pulled the strings behind the scenes until Cersei blew them up. Both men and women pull strings behind the scenes ie Littlefinger & Varys.

 

Brienne is defying the odds and being one of the most honorable knights (in a man's world)

 

Asha took control over islands from her uncle. Remains to be seen if she can keep control.

 

Cersei ruled king's landing viciously behind the scenes, and now rules from up front and center 

 

But woe is me, Dany might not end up on top after the Targaryen madness kicks in, the women are held down and treated so badly.

Edited May 12, 2019 by AJ_-_808

[damon8r351]

11 minutes ago, AJ_-_808 said:

 

whoa is me

 

Hate to be that guy who returns an argument by attacking one's spelling, but it's "woe is me". Feel free to attack my spelling in return.

 

Yes, you make some points. It's been a couple years since I read the books. I still stand by my assessment of the future of the story till proven otherwise.

[AJ_-_808]

Edited for autocorrect fail.

 

The writing for the show has gone downhill, we should be attacking that rather than the story imo

[damon8r351]

33 minutes ago, SinisterPledge said:

As opposed to his male characters? 

 

 

 

And sure. It's funny the way you put that, considering how our previous run-ins have turned out, but rest assured I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. Let's see if Dany is reduced to arm candy for Jon Snow. See ya in a few weeks.

 

Ah well in those instances that can be explained simply by the fact I still thought you were wrong and just decided not to bother with changing an unchangeable mind.

[TheLakota]

I'm willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt when it comes to general writing on the show. As the years and narrative have progressed, so too have the bodies piled up. This in turn eliminated a number of opportunities for arcs to continue and thereby heighten the intrigue. 

 

Littlefinger, for instance, was my favorite character as he really played the game of thrones. With his demise, I think the writers  in a sense painted themselves into a corner, though such is the case with arcs as they splinter or, in Littlefinger's case, end. 

 

The only real issue I have with GoT is the at times clunky dialogue. 

 

Case in point: Stable boy

[Gibbo_0113]

HBO, George R R Martin and obviously the fans wanted the series to last longer. It was only Dan & Dave that wanted to end it at 8 resulting in it being rushed and everything being crammed together. They should have replaced the writers.

 

Oh well, i guess we can only hope the last two episodes can redeem itself. Bad writing or not its still the best thing on television.

[hsn963]

2 hours ago, Gibbo_0113 said:

HBO, George R R Martin and obviously the fans wanted the series to last longer. It was only Dan & Dave that wanted to end it at 8 resulting in it being rushed and everything being crammed together. They should have replaced the writers.

This is the reason im not frustrated with all the idiotoc BS in the late seasons, anymore.

 

GRRM stated there is at least enough source material in the 5 books for 13 seasons, but it is dnd that want to be done with it and start their next project ( of which, I will avoild like the plague).

 

And when you know their core values for the show are to subvert expectation and spectacular eye candy effects (remindes me of FF & square), you start to get why all the teleportation, stupid decisions, character degredation, plot armor, etc, keep happening.

 

I hope i will still be alive when Martin finishes his damn books ( Kentaru Miura and Yushiro Togashi as well).

Edited May 12, 2019 by hsn963

[matigrosso91]

I'm sad. I'm really sad. I get it, the madness of Targaryen and so, but Dany didn't deserve this ending. She became the tyrant, like the ones she swore to destroy. Seven seasons being a hero (regardless being merciless in some cases), to become villain in five episodes.

And that, just to begin. This chapter is very hard to swallow.

[BG_painter]

? ? ? ? ?.
@matigrosso91 u said everything.

They pratcally made the entire show unwatchable.

Edited May 13, 2019 by BG_painter

[MooseSketts]

1 hour ago, matigrosso91 said:

I'm sad. I'm really sad. I get it, the madness of Targaryen and so, but Dany didn't deserve this ending. She became the tyrant, like the ones she swore to destroy. Seven seasons being a hero (regardless being merciless in some cases), to become villain in five episodes.

And that, just to begin. This chapter is very hard to swallow.

 

Well, we sort of saw it coming.  I was waiting for her to kill off Tyrion and Jon this episode.  What irks me is that during the battle in King's Landing when

Spoiler

Dany went apeshit, Jon, Tyrion, and Davos pretty much had these looks on their faces like "we fucked up".  I also am wondering why the fuck Dany went completely apeshit to begin with.  I get that she was pissed off at Cersei, but what was the point?  Are there any civilians left in the city at all?

 

Also, Varys said that he wasn't sure what side her coin landed on...  Seriously?  I thought he had pretty much stated in so many words last episode that she was nuts.  Speaking of Varys, did anyone happen to catch what Varys' letters said?

 

I thought at the moments when 

Spoiler

Arya was being trampled and The Hound was getting fucked up by The Mountain that it was setting it up for when Arya almost got incinerated by Drogon.  I thought that when she got up and slowly started turning that the side of her face would have been burnt like The Hound's.  Sort of like The Hound's feelings of revenge for The Mountain... which I am totally lost on at this point - I forget why he hates him... 

 

I did feel a little bad for Cersei and Jaime down in the crypt.  I totally thought he would have stabbed Cersei to death to fulfill that prophecy, but I guess that was forgotten about.  

 

I wonder if Jon will be killed (by Greyworm)...  And where is Arya heading off to.  How the hell did she survive King's Landing?  Does she have 9 lives?  Otherwise, I much enjoyed this episode.  I didn't feel a gaping hole that needed to be filled like the past episodes this season.

[matigrosso91]

10 minutes ago, MooseSketts said:

 

Well, we sort of saw it coming.  I was waiting for her to kill off Tyrion and Jon this episode.  What irks me is that during the battle in King's Landing when

  Hide contents

Dany went apeshit, Jon, Tyrion, and Davos pretty much had these looks on their faces like "we fucked up".  I also am wondering why the fuck Dany went completely apeshit to begin with.  I get that she was pissed off at Cersei, but what was the point?  Are there any civilians left in the city at all?

 

Also, Varys said that he wasn't sure what side her coin landed on...  Seriously?  I thought he had pretty much stated in so many words last episode that she was nuts.  Speaking of Varys, did anyone happen to catch what Varys' letters said?

 

I thought at the moments when 

  Hide contents

Arya was being trampled and The Hound was getting fucked up by The Mountain that it was setting it up for when Arya almost got incinerated by Drogon.  I thought that when she got up and slowly started turning that the side of her face would have been burnt like The Hound's.  Sort of like The Hound's feelings of revenge for The Mountain... which I am totally lost on at this point - I forget why he hates him... 

 

I did feel a little bad for Cersei and Jaime down in the crypt.  I totally thought he would have stabbed Cersei to death to fulfill that prophecy, but I guess that was forgotten about.  

 

I wonder if Jon will be killed (by Greyworm)...  And where is Arya heading off to.  How the hell did she survive King's Landing?  Does she have 9 lives?  Otherwise, I much enjoyed this episode.  I didn't feel a gaping hole that needed to be filled like the past episodes this season.

Well, beside the fact that i feel the entire season was too rushed, the chapter itself is good. I'm sad for Dany and i think they ruined some arcs, but the fact that i don't like some thing doesn't mean the chapter was bad. I mean, i resume it like this: if the main facts was exactly the same but with some development chapters in a more long season, it would be a lot better.

Edited May 13, 2019 by matigrosso91

[MooseSketts]

2 minutes ago, matigrosso91 said:

Well, beside the fact that i feel the entire season was to rushed, the chapter itself is good. I'm sad for Dany and i think they ruined some arcs, but the fact that i don't like some thing doesn't mean the chapter was bad.

 

I agree; this season was rushed.  It shows that they really didn't care about this series anymore.  Whatever the outcome may be I'll be satisfied knowing that the series is over for good.

[Novemberian]

7 minutes ago, MooseSketts said:

I did feel a little bad for Cersei and Jaime down in the crypt.  I totally thought he would have stabbed Cersei to death to fulfill that prophecy, but I guess that was forgotten about. 

Well, it kind of became true.

“When your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.” He had his hands around her neck when they died, but, yeah. I wasn't expecting it to go like that either...

 

I just don't know how I can be disappointed even when I don't have any expectations anymore. Just hoping that Arya would kill Dany now.

[MooseSketts]

1 minute ago, novemberrx said:

Well, it kind of became true.

  Hide contents

“When your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.” He had his hands around her neck when they died, but, yeah. I wasn't expecting it to go like that either...

 

 

I just don't know how I can be disappointed even when I don't have any expectations anymore. Just hoping that Arya would kill Dany now.

 

I was so hellbent on Cersei being stabbed to death I forgot about the choking thing lol

[hsn963]

For FS, what is it about this targ madness these writers are shoving down our throats, as if all the targs were mad and shit, how many targ kings were really mad aside from Ares ( who was truly mad and sick ), so danys angry and agressive that does not make her essintially mad.

 

Really most people and rulers would kill more  for less, and these shitty worthless advisors started to deduce that she is getting mad for what? not listening to them for once!! she got where she is now for listening to their useless advices.

 

I didn' mean to rant here, i already know where things were headed due to leaks and so, but still watching it, is so dissapointing.

 

RIP khaleesi (how she used to be), I hope you will find your small home with the red door and the lemon tree, and someone to really love you (not that forced psuedo love the show runners try to make us belive).

Edited May 13, 2019 by hsn963

[TheLakota]

Whelp, that settles it: Arya is killing Dany in the finale.

[Tianna_Mortis]

Even though I pretty much saw it coming after last episode, goddamnit, Dany. Razing King's Landing to the ground was completely unnecessary.

 

1 hour ago, hsn963 said:

For FS, what is it about this targ madness these writers are shoving down our throats, as if all the targs were mad and shit, how many targ kings were really mad aside from Ares ( who was truly mad and sick ), so danys angry and agressive that does not make her essintially mad.

 

While I haven't read the books, I have been reading up on the GoT Wiki and she's had several relatives prior to her and her father that showed signs of being insane. Her great grandfather was actually against the family practice of inbreeding after spending time in his childhood with the commoners and believed it was doing their family more harm than good. I think a lot of that has gotten lost in translation into the show. They only really reference her father and I think briefly a great uncle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sephiroth4424]

Who would have thought it, dragons aren't useless after all. This season should have been called Game of Convenience

[damon8r351]

55 minutes ago, Tianna_Mortis said:

Even though I pretty much saw it coming after last episode, goddamnit, Dany. Razing King's Landing to the ground was completely unnecessary.

 

 

While I haven't read the books, I have been reading up on the GoT Wiki and she's had several relatives prior to her and her father that showed signs of being insane. Her great grandfather was actually against the family practice of inbreeding after spending time in his childhood with the commoners and believed it was doing their family more harm than good. I think a lot of that has gotten lost in translation into the show. They only really reference her father and I think briefly a great uncle.

 

My favorite quotation made by Barristan Selmy:

"King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air, and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

 

And yes, there were many Targaryens inflicted with madness. One off the top of my head was Aerion Targaryen, who features in the story The Hedge Knight, who thought he was a dragon in human form and died after drinking a cup of wildfire.

Edited May 13, 2019 by damon8r351

[Dauersack]

53 minutes ago, sephiroth4424 said:

Who would have thought it, dragons aren't useless after all. This season should have been called Game of Convenience

So much this. Last episode a few ships sniped the smaller dragon out of the sky at maximum distance, now the whole fleet + the entire kings landing wall defenses could not land a single hit even when the huge dragon got up close. I mean I know it is much more realistic for ballistas to be useless, but the flip flopping from instant kill to entirely useless is what annoys me, from one episode to another. The Dothraki that served as an appetizer for the army of the dead magically respawned too, how nice for them. These writers are shit, plain and simple, they forgot about key parts and characters that still needed adressing. Arya coming along just to then leave was dumb as hell, she surviving what seemingly almost no other civilian survived and having a horse practically waiting for her in the razed down city made me laugh so hard due to its sheer stupidity. Still kinda glad she survived, she is the best bet to seeing The Mad Queen killed in the last episode. I disliked her dumb Arya Ex Machina kill on the Night King, but if she gets to kill The Mad Queen I don't even care at this point how dumb of a moment it is going to be, I just want the series to be over and Daenerys death is one of the last few joys I could get out of the last episode.

 

So with many characters dead, the only plot point left is either killing the mad queen or having her kill the rest of the cast. She is irredeemable, what she has just done was ten times worse than what all other despicable characters in the show have done combined, her rule would be the worst in the history of this world, anything other than her facing a violent demise or losing her mind fully after killing anyone who is left would be insulting. Speaking of insulting, it speaks of how utterly inept these writers are considering they managed to kill off both Littlefinger and Varys, two candidates for most impact on the world at some point, in pretty much the same way. Both of these formerly fearsome master manipulator characters had zero impact before they died, killing them did not cost anything and was done in a way you would expect an unimportant side character to die.

 

Who also had no impact was the Golden Company, zero, you could have placed a few thousand blow up dolls there instead of them and the outcome would be the same. Jamie just coming back to die a needless death seems like a waste of a perfectly good redemption, he did not even fulfill the prophecy with his dumb suicide mission, probably just forgotten by the writers. Cersei is dead at least, and the Hounds story ended the right way, even if his death was also needless as hell considering he suicided to destroy a moving corpse that was about to burn to a crisp anyway.

 

What stopped this episode from being utterly shit were the few nice scenes that, despite suffering from shitty writing, were saved by some good acting performances. Seeing The Mad Queen finish what her father wanted to start also looked impressive. It is really sad that the scale I have to use for the last few episodes of this series even has something like "utterly shit" on it.

 

The next episode has much to adress, half of which will probably just end up missing. I am curious to see if they go all the way and make The Mad Queen act like the complete nutjob that she is now, or if she is trying to justify her behavior and keeps spewing this savior nonsense. They could make one last big battle to exterminate the Unsullied and Dothraki to the last man, since they ended up being exactly what people like Randyll Tarly expected (btw, proving the xenophobic racists of the show right in every point and making them the reasonable guys is a bit of a questionable move I think), or they try to repeat something like The Red Wedding.

In any case, I have no expectation for the last episode to be good, not even decent, I expect it to be quite unsatisfying due to not adressing and finishing some points and I expect it to not make much sense. I will never rewatch season 7 and 8, for these shit writers have killed years of buildup and character development and season 7 was when the bullshit became impossible to overlook. I will avoid whatever these imbeciles Weiss and Benioff work on next and will advise anyone I know from doing so, for they totally fucked up what should have been impossible to fuck up. Watching them talking about things after the recent episodes was simply infuriating, hope they have a hard time finding other shows to ruin from now on, but it will most likely not happen.

[Gibbo_0113]

Well that settles it, im reading the books