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The Proposal to Fixing the Platinum Trophy: The Ribbon System


Ribbon of Effort Percentage  

473 members have voted

  1. 1. What should be the MAX percent limit for the Ribbon of Effort? (For example, '75%' means any platinum trophy you earn with a 0% - 75% rarity gets you a ribbon)

    • 75% (If set this high, it would include most games that take hours to complete while still excluding all games which take minutes)
      183
    • 70%
      32
    • 65%
      18
    • 60%
      46
    • 55%
      14
    • 50% (If set this low, games like Spider-Man won't get a Ribbon of Effort)
      180


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1 minute ago, Varhur said:

This again doesn't encourage going for rarer plats, just enough for them to be UR, TLoU vs SMB, CoD:AW vs CotND, if it would happen, it needs to be exponential increase.

 

Even the ribbon system as it is thought right now would not make a difference between The Last of US and Super Meat Boy since it would gather them as being two exact same ribbons.

 

And honestly I do not think the goal for this is to encourage people to go for the rarest platinums out there. My mind is it is set to have the possibility to showcase the highest possible number of ultra rare platinums but not to redirect people to the most difficult ones.

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Just now, JeromeSpree said:

 

Even the ribbon system as it is thought right now would not make a difference between The Last of US and Super Meat Boy since it would gather them as being two exact same ribbons.

 

And honestly I do not think the goal for this is to encourage people to go for the rarest platinums out there. My mind is it is set to have the possibility to showcase the highest possible number of ultra rare platinums but not to redirect people to the most difficult ones.

I was talking about how a potential system for rarity leadeboard should work, that can't be implemented into current ribbon proposals.

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I like the general idea of having a ribbon to show effort, although I don't really like a arbitrary cut-off. I liked this idea:

 

23 hours ago, dzstrpc said:

Why not create a leaderboard based on the grades of rarity this site has agreed on.

 

Ultra Rare Plat    = Platinum Ribbon

Very Rare Plat    = Gold Ribbon

Rare Plat            = Silver Ribbon

Uncommon Plat  = Bronze Ribbon (maybe tweak the % to 75 or whatever people vote for)

Common Plat      = (Above 75 %) A BIG FAT NOTHING

 

Except I would have it not to exclude anything, e.g.

Plat rarity < 10% = Platinum Ribbon

Plat rarity >= 10% and < 25% = Gold Ribbon

Plat rarity >= 25% and < 50% = Silver Ribbon

Plat rarity >= 50% = Bronze Ribbon

 

So people who play EZPZ games just get a bunch of bronze ribbons and the total number of ribbons would always much the total number of plats.

 

Although it would be great if it supported 100% games and DLC somehow in the future :)

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6 minutes ago, Varhur said:

I was talking about how a potential system for rarity leadeboard should work, that can't be implemented into current ribbon proposals.

 

The only solution I find honorable as an addition to my two previous proposals (individual points per trophies for a simple and not too complicated rarity leaderboard and platinums' rarity average) would be to set a page dedicated to platinum trophies in the stats' section to display them all from the rarest one to the most common one.

Edited by JeromeSpree
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Just now, JeromeSpree said:

 

The only solution I find honorable as an addition to my two previous proposals (individual points per trophies for rarity leaderboard and platinums' rarity average) would be to set a page dedicated to platinums trophies in the stats' section to display them all from the rarest to most common one.

Well, BlindMango noticed the idea of displaying rarest platinums in the same way as rarest trophies, so this has bigger chances of happening.

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Ribbon of Effort should reward platinums with 30% or lower not 75% which is way to high, most platinums above 50% require almost no effort at all, that's why 30% or lower would be a better gap and reward players for their time investment and skill acquired for the games they played, not a discrimination whatsoever, just a reward for your effort, same with the ribbon of rarity which is an amazing idea.

Also @BlindMango you mentioned a poll to vote the addition or removal of this system and I can say straight away most people on psnp don't want this system nor a rarity leaderboards, they want to keep stack their VN's and Ratalaika's games, the thing is, since people are biased about it and most active members on this site do this, you don't need to be a genius to know that the system won't go forward. Following this stupid logic I wouldn't want a top 50 ribbon because I never were in the top 50 achievers in anygame I've played? Of couse not, this players should be reward for their effort, it's just a goddamn distiction, I don't feel discriminated for having 0 in the the top 50 ribbon counter, just that I wasn't fast enough, that's it, on the other hand, it's implement would encourage me to go for it, the same applies for every other ribbon created, what is so hard understand?

Edited by PhantomBlade19
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1 hour ago, JeromeSpree said:

 

This is exactly what I thought would be implemented in the first place as a rarity leaderboard.

 

This already exists as a WIP of sorts

https://psnprofiles.com/leaderboard/rarity/ 

 

Please. If you are curious about a rarity leaderboard specifically, refer to this thread

 

Edited by Dreggit
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While I’m all for this idea, I can’t really be hyped about it. I was super hyped about the series-tracking when it was comming soon, two years ago. Of course there are alot of behind the scenes work, but I can’t even remember the last feature or even stat that was added to this site.

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4 hours ago, mecharobot said:

There are also the games that have no plat and have DLC. Does that have base game rarity?

 

DLC trophies are separated from base game trophies on the site already so it shouldn't be an issue to calculate rarity of base game trophy completion.

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I was doing some quick maths too see how many platinums would not be eligible for effort ribbons under certain conditions. I used the PSNP rarity for my calculations.

 

75% max rarity - 717 games would not earn you a effort ribbon for getting the platinum.

 

50% max rarity - 1175 games would not earn you a effort ribbon for getting the platinum.

 

30% max rarity - 1654 games would not earn you aeffort ribbon for getting the platinum.

 

I calculated 5757 games that have platinums (including the zero percents). These numbers are always going to change and this is just a rough estimate anyway. In the event of a trophy's rarity being the same as the max, I didn't count it as being over. 

 

In case a 100% percent trophy completion version of effort ribbon was implemented, I was going to calculate what games would be ineligible from earning the ribbon. I could think of a sane way to calculate that statistic so I get looked over my profile to see what games have a completion rarity over 30%. Only two games I owned (Actual Sunlight and Telltales: The Walking Dead Season 2) went over 30% rarity.

 

At 75% the effort ribbon fulfills its intended purpose of outing any player who played a game with a very fast and/or easy platinum at a quick glance. At the 30% mark the effort ribbon would exclude a fair few games but the majority would of games would still be eligible for a effort ribbon.

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I'm all for this, I can't see the rarity leaderboards being good if they're made so to me this is a better alternative.

i don't really see what's up with all the elitist comments on here though, significantly more people complaining about them then there are actual elitists, the arguments against it are garbage in general though.

Only thing I agree with on the other side is a toggle option, if there's opposition there's no reason to force it upon them.

I don't really care for the effort ribbon though, don't need 'em to look down on others :P, I just want my ultra rare plat count displayed, nothing beats increased ultra rare statistics on my main page.

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I like the idea of a ribbon system, especially the effort ribbon. However I would do the calculating way a little different.

 

- I would push the percentage to 80%. to moreso eliminate only the garbage games.

- I would eliminate stacks. PSNP already have a system for recognizing games on different platform/regions. Fairly the amount of stacks is even worst then the easyness of a game.

For this idea:

+ eliminates stacks of easy games ( 6x 74% will only count as 1x)

+ eliminates autopopping ( and putting litterally no effort in it)

+ If you played the game 1 and then doing it for a 2nd time due to stack you would put a lot less effort in it.

- eliminates the superhard games. They would still require a lot of training and effort.

 

I will see what comes out of this.

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How exactly is the trophy system broken when the same games people are bemoaning for their trophy lists are also on the Xbox One and Switch? Is the achievement system broken as well and we already know Nintendo doesn't even do achievements/trophies. I feel people are looking for a band aid for a problem that doesn't even really exist except in their own mind.

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41 minutes ago, majob said:

How exactly is the trophy system broken when the same games people are bemoaning for their trophy lists are also on the Xbox One and Switch? Is the achievement system broken as well and we already know Nintendo doesn't even do achievements/trophies. I feel people are looking for a band aid for a problem that doesn't even really exist except in their own mind.

It can be improved. Think of it that way if the term "broken" is problematic for you.

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On 6/8/2019 at 9:32 AM, JeromeSpree said:

 

Yeah this definitely looks like a headache, that is why I stick with my first idea of 1, 2, 5, 10, and 20 points per trophy plus a stat for the average rarity of the platinums.

Sly's current rarity leaderboards is similar to this, but the problem is that people will be higher on the leaderboards due to sheer numbers. Getting 1 UR trophy could take hours of hours, while the people at the top already earned common 500 trophies. That's the current issue with it so I hear.

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24 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said:

It can be improved. Think of it that way if the term "broken" is problematic for you.

People aren't claiming there's room for improvement, they're claiming it's broken and I never said I was bothered by it so don't put words in my mouth. 

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1 hour ago, majob said:

How exactly is the trophy system broken when the same games people are bemoaning for their trophy lists are also on the Xbox One and Switch? Is the achievement system broken as well and we already know Nintendo doesn't even do achievements/trophies. I feel people are looking for a band aid for a problem that doesn't even really exist except in their own mind.

 

A broken system is what sony brought to life with the lack of QA for trophy lists. An evolution were there are a lot of devs that abuse this lack of QA from sonys part for some quick buck and thereby destroying the once setuped system with structural rules by putting in trash. With that there are some results.

 

The standards are hereby lowered that if you want to be competitive, you need to play these trash games. I am not competitive enough to do it, but the high profile players do and if you refuse then you need to be happy seeing profiles with 6 stacks passing you easily... 

 

Therefore a seperated ribbon system eliminating high percentage games (&stacks?) while still maintaining the current leaderboard is the best of both worlds! then you can chose which you like best.

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12 minutes ago, Bumperklever said:

 

A broken system is what sony brought to life with the lack of QA for trophy lists. An evolution were there are a lot of devs that abuse this lack of QA from sonys part for some quick buck and thereby destroying the once setuped system with structural rules by putting in trash. With that there are some results.

 

The standards are hereby lowered that if you want to be competitive, you need to play these trash games. I am not competitive enough to do it, but the high profile players do and if you refuse then you need to be happy seeing profiles with 6 stacks passing you easily... 

 

Therefore a seperated ribbon system eliminating high percentage games (&stacks?) while still maintaining the current leaderboard is the best of both worlds! then you can chose which you like best.

Sony's standards are their own, all policies shift with time and those same games are also available on other platforms so am I to believe their systems are broken as well? Shovelware exists, it's something older than most of the users on this site and you are required to play "trash" games to be competitive regardless of their trophy value because there simply aren't enough "quality" games for you to compete with someone who has ample amounts of time and money to simply buy any new game that's released and the time to play them and earn their trophies. The ribbon system to me is just a way for people to pick and choose which games they want to "matter", which goes back to my previous point, a problem entirely in their own head.  The leaderboards don't matter to me I'm here mostly for the community, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents out there.

Edited by majob
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52 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

Sly's current rarity leaderboards is similar to this, but the problem is that people will be higher on the leaderboards due to sheer numbers. Getting 1 UR trophy could take hours of hours, while the people at the top already earned common 500 trophies. That's the current issue with it so I hear.

 

So the only correlation possible is to take into account the type of trophy earned and its rarity as a multiplier.

Trophies deliver 15, 30, 90, and 180 points so it would get 1, 2, 6 and 12 points after simplifying.

The rarity as set here would then be the multiplier.

 

A common bronze trophy would get 1 point while an ultra rare platinum would get 12 x 20 = 240 points.

I do not think two ultra rare gold trophies are worth an ultra rare platinum trophy but it is how Sony thought its system so it is at least official.

 

Anyway, no matter how the calculation is made there will always be counterexamples of what is worth something else or not.

Since we can't get the time spent for a certain trophy we can't get things right and even if we could do this some people would slow down things to earn more points.

 

EDIT : to go back to what you said about the 500 common trophies, I understand some people might not like it represents the same as one ultra rare trophy but since I do not aim at getting easy trophies I do not really care (I might be a counterexample for it, even the equivalent of 240 commons like in my calculation would not bother me). Some do not want to spend hours in getting an ultra rare trophy while some like me just play the games they like or might enjoy and would not like to be forced to play easy games to collect the most common trophies possible. It is definitely not the same effort but since I would not like to do this way it would also represent a kind of an effort but not with the same meaning though.

Edited by JeromeSpree
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1 hour ago, majob said:

How exactly is the trophy system broken when the same games people are bemoaning for their trophy lists are also on the Xbox One and Switch? Is the achievement system broken as well and we already know Nintendo doesn't even do achievements/trophies. I feel people are looking for a band aid for a problem that doesn't even really exist except in their own mind.

 

Whether a game is released on multiple systems is irrelevant. The trophy/achievement system is not the same between all three consoles, and that's the thing people are complaining about.

 

Obviously trophy lists don't exist at all on Switch so it can't be a problem there. But there are big differences between Xbox achievements and PS4 trophies and what their communities generally value about them, such as platinum trophies for completing entire games. One thing that's relevant this this thread is that while PS4 can get six lists per game, Xbox only gets one. That makes it much easier for companies like Ratalaika to exploit trophies, and that's one problem people have with what's been going on recently.

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11 minutes ago, Shadiochao said:

 

Whether a game is released on multiple systems is irrelevant. The trophy/achievement system is not the same between all three consoles, and that's the thing people are complaining about.

 

Obviously trophy lists don't exist at all on Switch so it can't be a problem there. But there are big differences between Xbox achievements and PS4 trophies and what their communities generally value about them, such as platinum trophies for completing entire games. One thing that's relevant this this thread is that while PS4 can get six lists per game, Xbox only gets one. That makes it much easier for companies like Ratalaika to exploit trophies, and that's one problem people have with what's been going on recently.

Ironically, Switch is adding achievements for its cuphead release.

 

Also, why do we need to try and reinvent the wheel with this stuff? We have leaderboards and it seems really unfair to say “this is common so it isn’t hard.” I know I am out on a limb, but imagine a gamer that develops limited use of their hands or someone who has dyslexia. A platinum that was a breeze for most could be next to impossible for someone with issues like the ones I mentioned. I am not arguing for social justice. I just don’t like the idea of saying someone’s platinum is worth less than someone else’s.

Edited by VoidVictory
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18 minutes ago, Shadiochao said:

 

Whether a game is released on multiple systems is irrelevant. The trophy/achievement system is not the same between all three consoles, and that's the thing people are complaining about.

 

Obviously trophy lists don't exist at all on Switch so it can't be a problem there. But there are big differences between Xbox achievements and PS4 trophies and what their communities generally value about them, such as platinum trophies for completing entire games. One thing that's relevant this this thread is that while PS4 can get six lists per game, Xbox only gets one. That makes it much easier for companies like Ratalaika to exploit trophies, and that's one problem people have with what's been going on recently.

Xbox does have regional stacks, same as the Playstation, though I don't know how often it's exploited compared to how Ratalaika does with PSN. My point is that we have people here bemoaning these games and how they've affected the platform when they exist elsewhere and those communities don't seem to remotely be as bothered by it as the community here. There's differences to be sure but at the end of the day  both platforms operate very much the same way.

7 minutes ago, VoidVictory said:

Ironically, Switch is adding achievements for its cuphead release.

Cuphead has in game achievements so are you confusing that with an actual network system?

 

EDIT: Nope it doesn't, I was completely wrong there

Edited by majob
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6 minutes ago, JeromeSpree said:

 

So the only correlation possible is to take into account the type of trophy earned and its rarity as a multiplier.

Trophies deliver 15, 30, 90, and 180 points so it would get 1, 2, 6 and 12 points after simplifying.

The rarity as set here would then be the multiplier.

 

A common bronze trophy would get 1 point while an ultra rare platinum would get 12 x 20 = 240 points.

I do not think two ultra rare gold trophies are worth an ultra rare platinum trophy but it is how Sony thought its system so it is at least official.

 

Anyway, no matter how the calculation is made there will always be counterexamples of what is worth something else or not.

Since we can't get the time spent for a certain trophy we can't get things right and even if we could do this some people would slow down things to earn more points.

Ah, but that's part of the problem too. Most easy games have a higher amounts of Gold and Silver trophies so using a multiplier only increases the value of these types of games. Not to mention, there are bronze trophies like Bloodlust from FFIX that takes hours to complete and clearly should have been a gold trophy. Furthermore, that 240 points will probably take 150 hours to do unless it's a skill-based game and you're awesome at it. In 240 hours, you could literally platinum every Ratalaika game and earn several other platinums on top of that.

 

The system doesn't value the time and effort you put into it which is why the current system in place just shows similar people at the top.

 

I like the idea of common trophies being worth zero points that others have mentioned, but I'm not sure how much that would change the leaderboard.

 

Anyways, I'm not here to shoot down your ideas, belittle them, or anything like that so don't think that I am. I'm just presenting the cons of the system and why Sly is trying to revamp it to make it more interesting before having it go live.

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