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Xbox Scarlett & PS5


RadiantFlamberge

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46 minutes ago, SixyLove said:

Damn, I didn't think of that.

 

I've already come up with two possible solutions to have both.

1. Re-introduce the start and select buttons (or add two new buttons) and have them work by acting like you pressed that a side of the touch pad. That would make most PS4 games work with the new controller but games like Gal*Gun: Double Peace that use the touchpad for then a button wouldn't be fully playable.

2. Make the PS4 controller compatible with the PS5.

 

Your first solution would require every game to be patched to have remapped buttons. Hardly any game developers would want to eat the costs of doing so or put the resources into that, so that's not really viable. Like you said, it also excludes those games which actually use the touchpad for something other then a button press, which while few and far between do exist.

 

The second solution is plausible but it's not very elegant. Microsoft would remind customers at every opportunity that you have to buy another peripheral, not included in the box, for backwards compatibility on PlayStation. The light bar servers a purpose for VR, so that's not going anywhere. I'm not a fan of the touchpad either and I'm sure Sony would get rid of it if they could in hindsight, but I doubt they will because optically it's not worth it.

Edited by DaikichiKawachi
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I'm good with my PS4 for the foreseeable future. No need to spend hundreds of dollars for some extra bells and whistles just because it's new.

I waited a couple of years before getting the PS4, so I've got no problem doing the same for the next next gen console.

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2 hours ago, DaikichiKawachi said:

Your first solution would require every game to be patched to have remapped buttons. Hardly any game developers would want to eat the costs of doing so or put the resources into that, so that's not really viable.

The solution doesn't require every developer to patch their game. Sony would have to program console and/or to interpret pressing the start and select buttons, as a left or right touchpad press while playing a PS4 game. The idea behind the solution is more about tricking the game into thinking you tapped the touchpad, without actually having a touchpad. 

 

2 hours ago, DaikichiKawachi said:

The second solution is plausible but it's not very elegant. Microsoft would remind customers at every opportunity that you have to buy another peripheral, not included in the box, for backwards compatibility on PlayStation.

Having to own a PS4 controller to play PS4 games on the PS5 isn't the best marketing strategy. The first solution I purposed was the best for marketing because I think the majority of people have a PS4 game that requires the PS4 camera or using the touchpad for more than tapping it. The second solution to makes all PS4 games work but Microsoft gets a marketable feature. Having both solutions, the PS5 controller will work great for most games but you need a PS4 controller for some games and VR, would be the best solution.

 

2 hours ago, DaikichiKawachi said:

The light bar servers a purpose for VR, so that's not going anywhere. I'm not a fan of the touchpad either and I'm sure Sony would get rid of it if they could in hindsight, but I doubt they will because optically it's not worth it.

You wouldn't need a light bar on the PS5 controller, if just for VR games required the PS4 controller. Some VR games require the PS Move controllers from the PS3 so it's nothing new. PS VR requires a lot of extra stuff just to function anyway so... Well people will always complain. I feel that VR is still a very niche thing so not too many people would care.

 

For a PS5 controller to work flawless will every PlayStation game, it would require pressure sensitive face buttons, motion controls, a built in speaker, analog triggers, a touchpad and a light bar. The PS5 controller would have to be a PS4 controller with pressure sensitive face buttons. I would give the light bar a pass if you could turn it off; there is no reason it has to been on all the time... Except to tell you that it's on and what player you are. It took me way too long to realize that but the PS3 did the same thing with less so, yeah. I know that there is enough space inside the controller to fit and wire a LCD light display thing; there isn't much space on the outside though besides the grips and back.

 

Having a PS5 controller be give up up the dumb gimmicks and be backwards compatible with evey PlayStation wouldn't be impossible (or all that difficult) but it would be a lot simpler just to add pressure sensitive face buttons to the PS4 controller and call it a day.  

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Well knew it would be, but I was still so bummed when it was announced as Christmas next year. I had a liiiiiiittle bit of hope it would drop at the end of this year. 

 

I am feckin' ready for next gen already, and Xbox is doing everything they need to to pull me their side, even though I was already gonna choose the system with the most compatible old gen games, which was always likely to be them. Fancy pants super fast load times with an SSD, check. Fancy pants super good RAM and even using virtual RAM on top of it, check. Up to 120 FPS and 8K resolutions (even though it's likely fuck all games will actually hit that and I'm still fine with my 1080p TV), check. Backwards compatible with all three generations of Xbox consoles*, and obviously it's own new games, check. Still keeping Game Pass alive and well so that I don't need to buy fuck all in the way of games for this console and can just play all my current crap while I wait for the next big Game Pass game, check. 

 

Game Pass and back compat are the sole reasons I'll be buying Xbox next gen. I prefer the Xbox controller and menu currently but who cares about that shit really, all that matters is games, and while Sony have way more exclusives, Spider-Man is literally the only one I give a shit about now that Uncharted is done and inFamous is MIA. Xbox launching with a shitload of backward compatible games, and a service where I can pay X amount a month and get access to hundreds of games, including brand new games on launch day (thereby reducing my need to buy new shit to play) is ace for me. I wanna Netflix next gen. I'm sick of building up a backlog, I always do it, and it's too late for my 150+ downloads on Switch that I haven't got around to, but it's not for next gen. I look forward to not buying games next generation. 

 

All PlayStation needs to do to get me to buy their thing is be backward compatible with *ALL* my PS1, PS2, and PS4 discs and downloads. I'd like PS3 too but you know Sony isn't as good with their own system as the hackers for some reason. So we've outlined the two things Xbox has done to win me over, and we've got one thing Sony *could* do to win me back, but that leaves them one behind, they need one more, and I'll give it to them. Price. Sony need to be cheaper than Xbox, as they were last generation. If the PS5 could launch a good 150 bones less than the Scarlett, I'd consider it. I'm expecting Scarlett to be around the 700 mark AUD (the Xbone, and the Xbone X launched for 650 here), the PS4 dropped for 550 day one and all the word on the street about Sony wanting to stick to the 400USD tag would fit with it being 550AUD here at launch. If the PS4 dropped reasonably cheaper, that would help combat Game Pass for me, as Game Pass Ultimate is 15.95 here provided you don't wait for a deal, so I'd be stocking up on that when there's deals and shit on Xbox but another 150 off would cover more than 2 years of PS+ with (hopefully) games for PS4 & PS5 every month buying on sale (EB is 55 right now for a year, and they do that every E3) so that is a decent difference when talking about living off the subscriptions and not buying as many games this generation. 

 

*Backwards compatible with all three generations of Xbox consoles - Well Phil Spencer said in an interview this morning that they are working on getting every game to come over. We don't know that they actually will and surely they would after a while, but we all kind of assume everything they've got the licensing taken care of to sell on Xbox One, they would have had the foresight to also have for Xbox 2. Though it could also be technical / emulation issues rather than licensing, who knows. Point being, god I hope they don't launch with like 50 BC games and slowly roll out the rest of the already back compat games over the years, if the Xbox 2 can't play *EVERYTHING* the Xbox One can, then it can't instantly replace my Xbox One, and if it can't instantly replace it, I still need it. And if I still need it, I don't need an Xbox 2 day one, so that would be a major get for Sony if Xbox can't get all their back compat shit out there day one.

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6 minutes ago, SixyLove said:

The solution doesn't require every developer to patch their game. Sony would have to program console and/or to interpret pressing the start and select buttons, as a left or right touchpad press while playing a PS4 game. The idea behind the solution is more about tricking the game into thinking you tapped the touchpad, without actually having a touchpad. 

 

Are you proposing replacing one wasteful button with two? If not what about when you need to actually use those buttons to pause the game or share content?

 

Even if Sony were able to do all the leg work on their end and trick every PS4 game into believing two different buttons can replace the touchpad, what about the in game prompts that refer to the touchpad? How is Sony going to let your nan or your little brother or your friend that is new to PlayStation know that they should ignore those prompts and press a different button altogether?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the touchpad. I agree with all your gripes about it but I can't see a way they can abandon it if they are committed to making PS5 backwards compatible.

 

28 minutes ago, SixyLove said:

You wouldn't need a light bar on the PS5 controller, if just for VR games required the PS4 controller. Some VR games require the PS Move controllers from the PS3 so it's nothing new. PS VR requires a lot of extra stuff just to function anyway so... Well people will always complain. I feel that VR is still a very niche thing so not too many people would care.

 

The PS3 move controllers and the PS4 move controllers are identical apart from the charging port and the battery life. Sony (and their retail partners) are getting away with that because your average person can't tell the difference. The changes to your proposed Dualshock are far more distinctive and the changes are more pronounced.

 

If Sony were to relegate VR to the Dualshock 4 then they would be signifying that VR is not part of the future of PlayStation. Again, even if it is not true, that would be really bad optically and runs contrary to all the statements they are making about PlayStation 5. The light bar is not going anywhere.

 

55 minutes ago, SixyLove said:

I would give the light bar a pass if you could turn it off; there is no reason it has to been on all the time... Except to tell you that it's on and what player you are.

 

This, however, is plausible. I don't have any counter to this statement and they should implement it.

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2 hours ago, Super-Fly Spider-Guy said:

I am feckin' ready for next gen already, and Xbox is doing everything they need to to pull me their side, even though I was already gonna choose the system with the most compatible old gen games, which was always likely to be them. Fancy pants super fast load times with an SSD, check. Fancy pants super good RAM and even using virtual RAM on top of it, check. Up to 120 FPS and 8K resolutions (even though it's likely fuck all games will actually hit that and I'm still fine with my 1080p TV), check. Backwards compatible with all three generations of Xbox consoles*, and obviously it's own new games, check.

Don't drink the Microsoft Brand green Kool-Aid yet my dude, we actually haven't heard anything about the next X-Box from anybody that doesn't want you to give them you money. Don't blindly trust anything a gaming company tells you. You end up playing such classics as No Man's Sky and Fallout 76 if you let hype make your choices.

 

2 hours ago, DaikichiKawachi said:

Are you proposing replacing one wasteful button with two? If not what about when you need to actually use those buttons to pause the game or share content?

 

Even if Sony were able to do all the leg work on their end and trick every PS4 game into believing two different buttons can replace the touchpad, what about the in game prompts that refer to the touchpad? How is Sony going to let your nan or your little brother or your friend that is new to PlayStation know that they should ignore those prompts and press a different button altogether?

I actually I was thinking of replacing one really big button with too smaller buttons. The options buttons would be needed to play PS4 games and the share button has actually earned it's place on the modern controller. Some games use each side of the touchpad as different buttons, that is the only reason I said too add two. You could disable the share button for non-PS5 games and use that as one side of the touchpad. I think the controller would look better with two buttons not very useful buttons instead of one because symmetry. Also, having a start, select, options and share button would be a lot. Nan and Little Timmy would just get even more confused with so many darn buttons. The best you could do to limit confusion when the PS4 game would normally have you press the touchpad, is show a screen that tells you what buttons to press instead... but almost every game has it's "own press the touchpad icon" the screen wouldn't help much. Everyone would ignore the screen anyway.

 

2 hours ago, DaikichiKawachi said:

The PS3 move controllers and the PS4 move controllers are identical apart from the charging port and the battery life. Sony (and their retail partners) are getting away with that because your average person can't tell the difference. The changes to your proposed Dualshock are far more distinctive and the changes are more pronounced.

 

If Sony were to relegate VR to the Dualshock 4 then they would be signifying that VR is not part of the future of PlayStation. Again, even if it is not true, that would be really bad optically and runs contrary to all the statements they are making about PlayStation 5.

I'm surprised the PS3 and PS4 move controllers are different at all. I keep hearing that the future of gaming is VR so it would a better idea to just make the PS5 controller compatible with VR. I would still let the light bar have a pass if it could be turned off. It only wastes battery life when it's on and only ever need during camera and VR games.

 

I would be alright with keeping the touchpad, light bar, built in speaker, motion controls, rumble and adding pressure sensitive face buttons if the PS5 was backwards compatible.  Even if I would rather have a gimmickless controller over backwards compatibly, I understand the importance of backwards compatibly and know not everyone can repair their system when they want to feel the embrace of death like I can. It would also be nice to play the pile of terrible PS2 games I own again. 

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I won't need much to sell me on getting the PS5 at launch, especially if I can use and transfer everything from my PS4. I have last years Days of Play special edition PS4 hooked up to my VR all the time, saves unplugging it constantly and makes it easier to pick up and play. My other PS4 is a pro and is my main console I play most stuff on. Assuming it has some decent launch titles, I will be trading in my pro for the PS5 and keeping the days of play one around for VR and other stuff still.

 

I really hope that they put a 4K disc drive in the thing, I already buy 4K blu-rays that I can't use in actual 4K, despite having the other necessary components to watch them. 4K blu-ray players are way to expensive to only play movies haha and I really don't want yet another box hooked up in my setup, so fingers crossed PS5 includes one, it probably will.

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3 hours ago, SixyLove said:

Don't drink the Microsoft Brand green Kool-Aid yet my dude, we actually haven't heard anything about the next X-Box from anybody that doesn't want you to give them you money. Don't blindly trust anything a gaming company tells you. You end up playing such classics as No Man's Sky and Fallout 76 if you let hype make your choices.

Oh believe me, I don't. PlayStation Plus used to actually be an additional thing like it's name implies but now it's required for countless games. 

 

But with the Xbox stuff, everything I said there, is just the logical continuation of what they're already doing. Game Pass already offers over 200 games, backward compatibility already lets me play 3 generations of Xbox on one console. All they have to do is continue that and not fuck it up, and we'll be fine.

 

And I enjoyed No Man's Sky. If I gave a single shit about Fallout I'd have given 76 a go, but alas, I do not. But nah, I'm not swayed by the hype, I'm swayed by the beautiful idea of a Netflix for games. If I can shell out my monthly fee, get hundreds of games, and never have to actually quote unquote buy anything ever again, or at least very rarely, I'm happy. Like if they do a year's worth of Game Pass for 120 or so, I'm absolutely sold. That's 10 bucks a month, for a good couple hundred games with new ones constantly, (hopefully) many of which will be exclusives from all the studios they've recently eaten up. That's more than fine with me. The absolute cheapest you can find a game launch day in Australia is around 65 give or take a couple of dollars, so if I can get all that for a year, for the cost of two AAA games day one, I mean, that's a no brainer for me.

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Now that we know when Cyberpunk 2077 is coming out I won't be jumping to next gen for a while. Which is cool because I've still got a decent PS3 backlog that needs attention.

 

Besides think it's best to wait so if there's any problems with the consoles they'll be fixed by the time I'm looking at buying.

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From what I gathered from the rumours, the Xbox and PS are very similar in terms of architecture, just like the current generation. But Microsoft blinked first and as it stands the next Xbox seems to be more powerful than the PS5 (4 times the power of the Xbox X... that's quite something!). As the specs are probably not set in stone, hopefully this will spur Sony on to up their specs as well to achieve parity. I am not worried about it, they'll be similar. And we're probably all PS fanboys & fangirls here anyway, so it is not a hard choice between the Xbox and the PS ?. I wonder what the next Xbox will be called. Probably something stupid like Xbox Zero X 8K or whatever.

 

So the Xbox is coming out Christmas 2020, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony follows suit. So far so good. The one thing that's got me worried/disappointed: the rumors all point towards NO backwards compatibility with the PS3. I was really hoping if an emulator wouldn't do the trick, they'd just build a PS3-on-a-chip or something and include it that way. But everything points to backwards compatibility with the PS4 and "here's PlayStation Now". I also read they are planning to do a PlayStation Plus Premium. Wouldn't be surprised if that included Now and regular Plus came with some stupid restriction or something. I would only get it if they have the balls to call it PlayStation Plus Plus ??

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Xbox looks amazing with the 4 generations span in a single console. There will be absolutely no reason whatsover to keep a X1 or X360 if you own a Scarlett. Hopefully this is going to be enough to take down Sony again so we can get great features in our side, like full Crossplay between consoles and PC.

 

The absolute supremacy from Sony needs to end if we are ever going to see they changing their stupid policies, like censoring and whatnot. Cut it out already, Sony!

 

I also enjoy this backward compatibility vibe, hopefully it will cut down the number of remasters and stacks, so I can spend more time playing stuff I want to play, rather than redoing things I've already done just because a publisher wanted more money and my collection is no longer complete.

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16 hours ago, TheYuriG said:

The absolute supremacy from Sony needs to end if we are ever going to see they changing their stupid policies, like censoring and whatnot. Cut it out already, Sony!

This is true. Hopefully it won't be so easy for Sony this time & Xbox will put some more pressure on them. Backward compatibility can only help, because Scarlett buyers could sell/trade their 360s & Ones to help pay for that. Hopefully the rumors about PS3 BC not happening are just rumors.

 

Instead of remasters I hope for patches that improve PS4 games when played on PS5. Then PS4 retail games could get Greatest Hits releases, with a PS5 patch either added on the disc or downloadable for free. Cyberpunk 2077 will be very good on PS4 I'm sure, but it could be great on PS5 with a patch.

 

For the new systems' RAM, I'd like to see a sizable jump. With Xbox One X as the current leader there (12 GB GDDR5), 20-24 GB is what I'm thinking. Something else I'd like is a 1st party mouse-keyboard setup for FPS games. I won't be jumping in right away on the Scarlett or PS5... I'll wait at least 6 months.

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3 hours ago, RadiantFlamberge said:

Instead of remasters I hope for patches that improve PS4 games when played on PS5. Then PS4 retail games could get Greatest Hits releases, with a PS5 patch either added on the disc or downloadable for free. Cyberpunk 2077 will be very good on PS4 I'm sure, but it could be great on PS5 with a patch.

Imagine if the PS4 - PS5 graphics gap was bridged by something like the PS4 - PS4 Pro patches. That would be okay for a lot of people, I would imagine.

I'm not against stacking, I just don't need to play them to complete the series if they don't exist.

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5 hours ago, RadiantFlamberge said:

I won't be jumping in right away on the Scarlett or PS5... I'll wait at least 6 months.

 

This is always a great strategy. It has happened too often now that the first batch of a new product is not up-to-par quality wise. Yet people line up for the privilege on launch day anyway... I guess I am very happy for them to find and deal with all the problems that'll be fixed in my copy, which will probably cost slightly less and which will be delivered right to my doorstep ?

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On 6/10/2019 at 1:10 PM, SixyLove said:

I hope that the PS5 doesn't have the stupid light bar. I hate the light bar so much that I was very tempted to disable the darn thing while I was repairing the D-Pad. I also really hate the dumb touch pad that is only used as a extra button in 99% of games.

Agree that the light bar is stupid. If Sony keeps it (they may have to keep it for backward compatibility), at least give us the option of turning it off.

 

Disagree a bit regarding the touch pad - yes it's almost only used as an extra button, but it has unintentionally become the world's best "pause" button. I kinda like having it just for that. In an intense moment, you don't need to feel and fumble for the small options button (which is annoyingly flush with the controller surface. I really don't get why they designed it that way), just smack the big 'ol touch pad. Much easier to pull up a menu screen compared to using the options button as well.

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On 6/10/2019 at 7:10 PM, SixyLove said:

. I also really hate the dumb touch pad that is only used as a extra button in 99% of games.

 

Hehe, I’ve actually replayed Infamous: Second Son recently where they actually use it (it was a first party launch title after all) for the graffiti bits. I’ve thankfully never had to use that thing in other games: what a horrible POS, incredibly unintuitive and inaccurate. But it will almost certainly be on the next Dual Shock because the PS5 must be backwards compatible with PS4...

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1 hour ago, Sifferino said:

Hehe, I’ve actually replayed Infamous: Second Son recently where they actually use it (it was a first party launch title after all) for the graffiti bits. I’ve thankfully never had to use that thing in other games: what a horrible POS, incredibly unintuitive and inaccurate. But it will almost certainly be on the next Dual Shock because the PS5 must be backwards compatible with PS4...

I forgot Infamous: Second Son used the touchpad for graffiti. I remember the graffiti working fine and never have any problems with it. I've found the touchpad to be accurate enough and use it to type messages when I don't feel like using both hands. I don't like the touchpad because it feels like a waste of space and give Sony an excuse to keep the price of controllers so high.

 

I feel like everyone has jumped the gun on whole PS5 being backwards compatible. It's very likely and 100% possible. It still feels too early to assume or believe the rumours.

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On 6/11/2019 at 5:13 AM, Sifferino said:

From what I gathered from the rumours, the Xbox and PS are very similar in terms of architecture, just like the current generation. But Microsoft blinked first and as it stands the next Xbox seems to be more powerful than the PS5 (4 times the power of the Xbox X... that's quite something!). As the specs are probably not set in stone, hopefully this will spur Sony on to up their specs as well to achieve parity. I am not worried about it, they'll be similar. And we're probably all PS fanboys & fangirls here anyway, so it is not a hard choice between the Xbox and the PS 1f600.png. I wonder what the next Xbox will be called. Probably something stupid like Xbox Zero X 8K or whatever.

 

So the Xbox is coming out Christmas 2020, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony follows suit. So far so good. The one thing that's got me worried/disappointed: the rumors all point towards NO backwards compatibility with the PS3. I was really hoping if an emulator wouldn't do the trick, they'd just build a PS3-on-a-chip or something and include it that way. But everything points to backwards compatibility with the PS4 and "here's PlayStation Now". I also read they are planning to do a PlayStation Plus Premium. Wouldn't be surprised if that included Now and regular Plus came with some stupid restriction or something. I would only get it if they have the balls to call it PlayStation Plus Plus 1f602.png1f602.png

 

I didn't think actual specs for either of the consoles was released yet...

 

As far as the PS3 backward compatibility purely on a technological standpoint, emulation is still done mostly by brute force (the 8 core Cell processor is based on PowerPC architecture, not x86) and is not ready for prime time. As far as a system-on-a-chip (exactly like Sony with with the Emotion Engine for PS2 emulation), the cell started out as a 90 nm core, and is made by IBM. IBM, over 9 years, was able to shrink the die down to 45nm. For comparison, the most recent Intel CPUs are a 14nm die. IBM stopped production of the cell processor 10 years ago. IBM is not going to ramp up production again, nor find a way to shrink it down enough to dissipate heat in the same box as all the new innards of the PS5.

 

PS3 backward compatibility is best done though a service like PS Now where there is an actual PS3 doing the work.

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