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Video Game Censorship: Discussion Thread


Wavergray

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30 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said:

Not when they have such market dominance that devs will just ensure they meet Sony standards and just release that version on every platform. They are controlling what is available, not through a democratically agreed upon standard, but their own desires to bend the knee to a very vocal minority.

 

You're overplaying Sony's place as the market leader. For one, other publishers have already simply released "uncut" versions of their game on other platforms. Second, other platforms exist for those publishers if they decide that their "artistic ingetrity" trumps selling their product. Nintendo has already gone on record on that they will abide by local game rating standards, MS has no qualms and Steam has already had their censorship drama playout and resolve itself. Sony is also not controlling what's available beyond their own platform despite what you seem to suggest nor do they have the ability to control what other platforms do. And there is no democracy here in a private industry with private companies and never has been and nor should there be. These are private platforms and those wishing to do business with them should abide by their wises or take their business elsewhere. Government also has no place in this

Edited by majob
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It is a bit weird to describe the current effect of censorship on the distribution of games right now because as stated, Sony is a major force in the market right now. However, on top of that, most games take at least 1 year to make. Most companies wouldn't be willing to sacrifice their their year(s) of work for censorship, assuming they only develop for Sony, or for companies that develop for multiple platforms, changing a few assets for a platform to reach more customers isn't that bad at all. 

 

The problem before, was that it was hard for small developers to develop on multiple platforms. A lot of these companies only had the development staff to support 1 platform and had problems expanding out from there. Just look at all of the early PS4 Koei Tecmo games that got terrible PC ports, but now most of these problems have been solved.

 

I personally believe that Sony has every right to censor their own platform, and with Sony's current large marketshare (don't want to over or understate it), it probably won't change the landscape of gaming that much. The problem is more when Sony moves to the PS5 and has to gain marketshare all over again. Will developers want to develop for something with a small playerbase and added restrictions? Will players be willing to get a PS5 or a PS5 version of the game with their game either not there or gimped on that platform. I feel that is where Sony's brand image and values will come more into play. Maybe their fans want to see these restrictions knowing they will never have to deal with certain questionable topics on Sony's platform, or maybe not. After the PS5 takes off (assuming it does better than the Wii U), pretty sure we'll see more small devs porting the games to the platform cheaply as it will be easy to do even if censorship is required, but they will probably not be system sellers and influences in Sony's success.

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5 hours ago, thefourfoldroot said:

So if things aren't important to you then it doesn't matter...until it is important to you I presume...a principled stand is needed, not varying degrees of being able to stomach something innately disagreeable.

Yes, censorship of innocuous things that allow the wide release of games does not bother me. As I stated, this is my opinion. If your argument is that censorship over the angle of breasts in a game could lead towards a slippery slope with major consequences, I disagree. Sony isn’t trying to piss people off and remember this is a reaction to cultural differences worldwide.

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18 hours ago, DaivRules said:

 

Sony doesn't control what message society can consume. The message creators have multiple avenues for getting the message to society, unless they specifically sell out to exclusivity to Sony, which they would do by choice, and by extension, agree with the censorship.

Sony isn’t forcing artists to censor what they release, the artists are free to release it through other distribution. Your argument only works if Sony holds a de facto monopoly on distribution, which they don’t, in any way, shape, or form.

Except their market dominance means they do. Otherwise I would absolutely agree with you. Glad we managed to boil it down to this single point of contention, makes things much easier.

18 hours ago, majob said:

You're overplaying Sony's place as the market leader. For one, other publishers have already simply released "uncut" versions of their game on other platforms. Second, other platforms exist for those publishers if they decide that their "artistic ingetrity" trumps selling their product. Nintendo has already gone on record on that they will abide by local game rating standards, MS has no qualms and Steam has already had their censorship drama playout and resolve itself. Sony is also not controlling what's available beyond their own platform despite what you seem to suggest nor do they have the ability to control what other platforms do. And there is no democracy here in a private industry with private companies and never has been and nor should there be. These are private platforms and those wishing to do business with them should abide by their wises or take their business elsewhere. Government also has no place in this

Initially games already in production were released unmolested, but we are increasingly seeing games created in a lessened way so they can just be released on Sony's platform and the others in the same guise. It's a pitiful sight to witness. Also, in no way have Steam weathered this issue, everyday there are reports of censorship and censorship of the discussion of censorship. They don't even tell anyone what material they find disagreeable or why their stance is do inconsistent. Sony's market position is leading to games in their puritanical image. A loss to the industry.

13 hours ago, VoidVictorious said:

Yes, censorship of innocuous things that allow the wide release of games does not bother me. As I stated, this is my opinion. If your argument is that censorship over the angle of breasts in a game could lead towards a slippery slope with major consequences, I disagree. Sony isn’t trying to piss people off and remember this is a reaction to cultural differences worldwide.

Its not a reaction to cultural differences, it's a choice to play to the most intolerant cultures and forced that on the rest of the world. It's not a slippery slope argument, we are already at the bottom of the slope (one hopes anyway). And the only reason Sony hasn't pissed far more people off than they have is that the gaming press agrees with their sensibilities and so mainly ignores their extremism.

18 hours ago, Fragtaster said:

It's funny to imagine for us older guys that we are currently living in a world where Sony is self-censoring games and Nintendo seems anti-censorship! I still remember the days of Nintendo removing crosses from Castlevania 3, and a Moon & Star symbol from blocks in Majora's Mask.

 

For me, anytime I hear a game is censored on PlayStation I buy it on another platform instead (usually PC). Some of the censorship just seems borderline silly to me.

Indeed.

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19 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said:

Except their market dominance means they do. Otherwise I would absolutely agree with you. Glad we managed to boil it down to this single point of contention, makes things much easier.

 

Please provide evidence of your claim that Sony has market dominance on distribution and therefore has a monopoly. 

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20 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

Please provide evidence of your claim that Sony has market dominance on distribution and therefore has a monopoly. 

Numbers are easy to find if you want. Surely everyone here already knows this though. Not a monopoly, but certainly enough of the market to make their version the de facto standard rather than any other version. You don't seriously believe devs will continue to make multiple versions of games after this transition period do you? We are already seeing this end.

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43 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said:

Except their market dominance means they do. Otherwise I would absolutely agree with you. Glad we managed to boil it down to this single point of contention, makes things much easier.

Initially games already in production were released unmolested, but we are increasingly seeing games created in a lessened way so they can just be released on Sony's platform and the others in the same guise. It's a pitiful sight to witness. Also, in no way have Steam weathered this issue, everyday there are reports of censorship and censorship of the discussion of censorship. They don't even tell anyone what material they find disagreeable or why their stance is do inconsistent. Sony's market position is leading to games in their puritanical image. A loss to the industry.

Its not a reaction to cultural differences, it's a choice to play to the most intolerant cultures and forced that on the rest of the world. It's not a slippery slope argument, we are already at the bottom of the slope (one hopes anyway). And the only reason Sony hasn't pissed far more people off than they have is that the gaming press agrees with their sensibilities and so mainly ignores their extremism.

Indeed.

I don’t think it is fair to label the United States, the United Kingdom, and Australia as the most intolerant cultures. The depiction of underaged girls in some Japanese games crosses the line for them culturally.

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2 minutes ago, VoidVictorious said:

I don’t think it is fair to label the United States, the United Kingdom, and Australia as the most intolerant cultures. The depiction of underaged girls in some Japanese games crosses the line for them culturally.

Who's talking about underage girls? This is the fallacy that is always raised by those who don't have all the facts I'm afraid, and you've fallen for it. Lots of examples now of Sony censoring cleavage and buttocks on clearly and canonically of age women.

And, ok, not as intolerant as Muslim countries, but not too far behind. 

Edited by thefourfoldroot
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1 minute ago, thefourfoldroot said:

Numbers are easy to find if you want. Surely everyone here already knows this though. Not a monopoly, but certainly enough of the market to make their version the de facto standard rather than any other version. You don't seriously believe devs will continue to make multiple versions of games after this transition period do you? We are already seeing this end.

 

I'm not making your argument for you, if you want to make the case they have dominance, you have to prove it. I know and already said they don't. You're throwing speculation out there now to extend your argument, but I don't accept that either.

 

Sony does not have a monopoly, no matter how much you want to claim otherwise.

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2 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said:

Who's talking about underage girls? This is the fallacy that is always raised by those who don't have all the facts I'm afraid, and you've fallen for it. Lots of examples now of Sony censoring cleavage and buttocks on clearly and canonically of age women.

And, ok, not as intolerant as Muslim countries, but not too far behind. 

I would be careful. I don’t think it is appropriate to start labeling countries as negative. We have a diverse membership on this site and it is a great injustice to stereotype other countries. 

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12 minutes ago, Wavergray said:

Okay if you want to go that route, you have to acknowledge that the images that are being censored are mostly of girls that look young and the people who make these games are known for playing the game of calling a girl who's in high school 18 when she's obviously younger than that. 

 

Look most know the age of consent in Japan is different than America. (even though each prefecture has different rules on what that age is) however, even if you say a random anime girl is 18, if she looks too young it's going to look creepy to some people.

 

Also almost every country is intolerant to one thing or another. This has nothing to do with religion or whatever. It just comes down to the fact that people don't like things that are different from them. Anything that is different from what is considered normal will be faced with intolerance in one way or another.

I think you hit the mark. 

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48 minutes ago, VoidVictorious said:

I would be careful. I don’t think it is appropriate to start labeling countries as negative. We have a diverse membership on this site and it is a great injustice to stereotype other countries. 

? I don't think you read what I wrote. I did not call any country negative in any way at all. Some CULTURES are less "tolerant" because they are closer to cultures still founded on religious doctrine, but people around the world have divergent views on whether "tolerance" is a good or bad thing. In many religious countries tolerance for non standard views would be seen as "negative". I think you may be the one restricting ideas of good and bad around a western centric multicultural "ideal".

21 minutes ago, Wavergray said:

Okay if you want to go that route, you have to acknowledge that the images that are being censored are mostly of girls that look young and the people who make these games are known for playing the game of calling a girl who's in high school 18 when she's obviously younger than that. 

 

Look most know the age of consent in Japan is different than America. (even though each prefecture has different rules on what that age is) however, even if you say a random anime girl is 18, if she looks too young it's going to look creepy to some people.

 

Also almost every country is intolerant to one thing or another. This has nothing to do with religion or whatever. It just comes down to the fact that people don't like things that are different from them. Anything that is different from what is considered normal will be faced with intolerance in one way or another.

And if the censorship was restricted to young looking girls, again, I might agree. But it's not. So I don't.

Edited by thefourfoldroot
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2 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said:

? I don't think you read what I wrote. I did not call any country negative in any way at all. Some CULTURES are less "tolerant" because they are closer to cultures still founded on religious doctrine, but people around the world have divergent views on whether "tolerance" is a good or bad thing. In many religious countries tolerance for non standard views would be seen as "negative". I think you may be the one restricting ideas of good and bad around a western centric multicultural "ideal".

You referred to the Muslim culture as being intolerant. It is a stereotype and many people on this site don’t deserve to be stereotyped in order for you to try and make your point.

Edited by VoidVictorious
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33 minutes ago, MMX20 said:

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You want me to Google Sony's sales figures and then those of Nintendo and Xbox this gen? I don't need to. Let's just say Sony are approaching 100 million and the others are sitting on around 75 million combined approx. Certainly less than Sony this gen. PC just follows console investment in terms of big budget games.

So, again, not a monopoly, but a dominant position. Why are you even arguing this?  

10 minutes ago, VoidVictorious said:

You referred to the Muslim culture as being intolerant. It is a stereotype and many people on this site don’t deserve to be stereotyped in order for you to try and make your point.

Everything is a stereotype when talking about cultures. Religious communities of any persuasion are less tolerant than a secular society. At this point in history Islamic choice societies more than others generally. If you are going to argue against that it will be difficult to take you seriously. I think this is an ancillary point that we take us off topic if not careful though.

Edited by thefourfoldroot
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9 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said:

You want me to Google Sony's sales figures and then those of Nintendo and Xbox this gen? I don't need to. Let's just say Sony are approaching 100 million and the others are sitting on around 75 million combined approx. Certainly less than Sony this gen. PC just follows console investment in terms of big budget games.

So, again, not a monopoly, but a dominant position. Why are you even arguing this?  

Everything is a stereotype when talking about cultures. Religious communities of any persuasion are less tolerant than a secular society. At this point in history Islamic choice societies more than others generally. If you are going to argue against that it will be difficult to take you seriously. I think this is an ancillary point that we take us off topic if not careful though.

Having around 100 million sales doesn't make it a monopoly. The only time there ever was a monopoly on the home console market was with the NES and the sega master system, where nintendo would straight up refuse cartridges to any developer that wanted to release their games on the master system too. They got straight up sued over that and lost

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1 hour ago, thefourfoldroot said:

Initially games already in production were released unmolested, but we are increasingly seeing games created in a lessened way so they can just be released on Sony's platform and the others in the same guise. It's a pitiful sight to witness. Also, in no way have Steam weathered this issue, everyday there are reports of censorship and censorship of the discussion of censorship. They don't even tell anyone what material they find disagreeable or why their stance is do inconsistent. Sony's market position is leading to games in their puritanical image. A loss to the industry.

Provide an example please because all I've seen are companies only altering their PS4 versions of their games. Nekopara, DMC V, ect. Zenki Zero, the example I feel you might pull, had a scene with a child-like looking character which is why Steam demanded the change as well as their policy, which you seem to think is just as puritan as Sony's, only extends to inappropriate scenes of children/child like looking characters which is done in respect to US laws regarding depictions of underage children.  And yes Steam weathered it quite well because their initial policy banned almost everything explicit to begin with until the customer base made their ire known

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1 minute ago, SnowxSakura said:

Having around 100 million sales doesn't make it a monopoly. The only time there ever was a monopoly on the home console market was with the NES and the sega master system, where nintendo would straight up refuse cartridges to any developer that wanted to release their games on the master system too. They got straight up sued over that and lost

 

He literally said in the post you quoted that Sony DO NOT have a monopoly, but a dominant position. A true statement. They have a large influence on the games industry.

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32 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said:

Religious communities of any persuasion are less tolerant than a secular society. 

 barking up the wrong tree right now

Edited by majob
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1 hour ago, thefourfoldroot said:

You want me to Google Sony's sales figures and then those of Nintendo and Xbox this gen? I don't need to. Let's just say Sony are approaching 100 million and the others are sitting on around 75 million combined approx. Certainly less than Sony this gen. PC just follows console investment in terms of big budget games.

So, again, not a monopoly, but a dominant position. Why are you even arguing this?  

Everything is a stereotype when talking about cultures. Religious communities of any persuasion are less tolerant than a secular society. At this point in history Islamic choice societies more than others generally. If you are going to argue against that it will be difficult to take you seriously. I think this is an ancillary point that we take us off topic if not careful though.

You have gone way out on a limb. 

Edited by VoidVictorious
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I feel the censorship topic should be less about Sony, but more about what companies do in response to it. As I stated before, I firmly believe Sony has the right to censor their platform because it is their brand and their image, and we as consumers are free to buy a game on whatever platform we choose.

 

With that said, you see some publishers being smart about this like D3 with Omega Labyrinth Life. Their first PV reached far more ppl than a game of its caliber would ever normally reach by joking a lot about Sony's policies.

 

Probably not the only reason, but you can definitely list censorship as one of the big reasons developers are looking for ways to release their games on other platforms as well like Compile Hearts with Mary Skelter 2 (and many of their other games since they probably run on the same engine).

 

Admittedly these are small names, but have gotten a lot of additional press because of the censorship news. However, these small companies are also the ones that seemed to be bullied the most by Sony.

 

For larger companies, deciding whether or not they want to release censored versions on just Sony's platform or all platforms will probably depend a lot on cost. How much money will it take to make such a change, and how much would it benefit sales? It may be cheaper to just release the same game on every platform, but if you get release a different version on each platform, you're almost certain to get additional free press in the near future.

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