Disappointing Gameplay

[CoregBlue]

After Finishing adventure mode I am pretty much able to beat tropies time in 2nd or 3rd res.

 

Oxide is challenging and somewhat frustrating but thats the Fun. It is just a test of skill and dedication. Dragon mines are freaking difficult.

 

Controls are also fine. Changing it to R2 was the First Thing i did. 

[dannyswfc9]

3 hours ago, MMDE said:

 

Practice makes master. In fact, the normal AI on hard can be pretty unforgiving while doing the cups. Once you play enough, you'll have a half round lead, maybe even catching up with last place, on long tracks. I don't think anyone claimed CTR Time Trial was easy though, but it's honestly the most fun in the game IMO. Some of the adventure stuff can be pretty fun too.

Cheers dude. The adventure mode is fun. I like the relic races. Im quite stubborn with gaming so it will take a lot to beat me. Mastering the boost technique is half the battle

16 minutes ago, CoregBlue said:

Controls are also fine. Changing it to R2 was the First Thing i did. 

Yeah me 2. I just cant get used to it being x button anymore. Every single racing game in a while av been r2. Its just hard getting used to that l2 isnt break or drift

[TurtlePM]

 

Am I becoming instantly good at this new gameplay... or is this Hovership that OverPowered?  

[Erkawest]

Glad to see that you're already enjoying the game ?

[TurtlePM]

1 hour ago, Erkawest said:

Glad to see that you're already enjoying the game

 

Nope, just adapting

[EcoShifter]

On 6/22/2019 at 1:31 PM, MMDE said:

ND didn't replicate that, at all, with their Jak X,

 

That is actually not true at all. Plus the way the boosting itself works is a fine replacement and very satisfying for what the game is.

[MMDE]

37 minutes ago, LightEcoSage said:

 

That is actually not true at all. Plus the way the boosting itself works is a fine replacement and very satisfying for what the game is.

 

Hello there Ashley, long time, no see. Jak X's feeling of control is awful, especially compared to CTR. IIRC, Jak X nailed the feeling of speed though, but in turn it felt like you had no control. The type of karts/whatever you want to call them you use in that game doesn't help either.

Edited June 24, 2019 by MMDE

[EcoShifter]

3 hours ago, MMDE said:

 

Jak X's feeling of control is awful, especially compared to CTR. IIRC, Jak X nailed the feeling of speed though, but in turn it felt like you had no control. The type of karts/whatever you want to call them you use in that game doesn't help either.

 

The controls aren't awful, and the two games cannot logically be compared fully. There is just a high learning curve, along with some particular vehicles being notably harder to master. There are certainly casual friendly vehicles for people not skilled or too skilled at diving, as well. Additionally, a similar technique used in CTR and MK can be applied in Jak X while driving at high speed (or other speeds), which involves short hopping to minimize or avoid collision, successfully make turns that could/would have otherwise failed, and minimize, cancel, or manipulate (unfavorable) skids. Moreover, there's also two types of brakes, which also means two types of power sliding, that i'm sure a lot of people never learned or learned properly. There's a distinct difference between their effectiveness... One is a light of sorts brakes, while the other is a heavy of sorts breaks. Using the heavy one is often times not advised unless you know exactly what you're doing, as it's easy skid without true control or not make the desired turn you wanted. But the lighter one is typically favorable, especially when not held down. However, there's still overall complexity that should also be acknowledged, but i'm not feeling to say much more. (Would be paragraphs and text walls and all.) But some of it includes topics such as how long you're holding down either of the power-sliding buttons, how much or long you're using the boost before, during, and after the power sliding, etc. Unless you're skilled at the game, trying to be a badass by simultaneously power-sliding and boosting will get you mostly unfavorable results. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by LightEcoSage

[MMDE]

On 6/24/2019 at 11:44 PM, LightEcoSage said:

 

The controls aren't awful, and the two games cannot logically be compared fully. There is just a high learning curve, along with some particular vehicles being notably harder to master. There are certainly casual friendly vehicles for people not skilled or too skilled at diving, as well. Additionally, a similar technique used in CTR and MK can be applied in Jak X while driving at high speed (or other speeds), which involves short hopping to minimize or avoid collision, successfully make turns that could/would have otherwise failed, and minimize, cancel, or manipulate (unfavorable) skids. Moreover, there's also two types of brakes, which also means two types of power sliding, that i'm sure a lot of people never learned or learned properly. There's a distinct difference between their effectiveness... One is a light of sorts brakes, while the other is a heavy of sorts breaks. Using the heavy one is often times not advised unless you know exactly what you're doing, as it's easy skid without true control or not make the desired turn you wanted. But the lighter one is typically favorable, especially when not held down. However, there's still overall complexity that should also be acknowledged, but i'm not feeling to say much more. (Would be paragraphs and text walls and all.) But some of it includes topics such as how long you're holding down either of the power-sliding buttons, how much or long you're using the boost before, during, and after the power sliding, etc. Unless you're skilled at the game, trying to be a badass by simultaneously power-sliding and boosting will get you mostly unfavorable results. 

 

Of course they can be logically compared, they share so many properties, there's actually very little that's more alike either.

 

Less control of what you drive does not increase the more you play it unless there's some machine learning.

 

You're talking about drifting... and yeah, I'm fully aware. I've played both games, and played CTR for hundreds of hours, Jak X far less, but that because it wasn't as good of a game. They traded in the well controlled fun karts for high speed and more realistic physics. There's also worse weapons/abilities etc, simply put, they were less controllable and not always as fit to the tracks and the speed etc. I've beat the Oxide ghosts in CTR multiple times in the original game.

 

And I'm not talking about the complexity, just simply put, it just didn't feel anywhere near as good driving in that game in terms of control. CTR is usually considered the best kart racing game ever, only challenged by the latest Mario Kart game. It's not for the game's innovations, as it didn't invent anything as far as I'm concerned. It would have been the run of the mill kart game, except, the gameplay is so good. It nails the feel of driving the karts in a way no other kart game has done.

 

I'm not a huge racing fan generally, though I've played my fair share, but I think a thing a lot of people into the genre differentiate between is "arcade" and "simulator" controls. Basically about how the kart/car drives/controls, one pretty much trying to nail the CTR feel (arcade), while the other tries to nail Gran Turismo (simulator). Jak X had a lot of arcade elements, but was aiming more for simulator than arcade controls, and in so doing not really doing either all that well.

Edited June 26, 2019 by MMDE

[EcoShifter]

On 6/25/2019 at 3:24 PM, MMDE said:

 

Of course they can be logically compared, they share so many properties, there's actually very little that's more alike either.

 

Less control of what you drive does not increase the more you play it unless there's some machine learning.

 

You're talking about drifting... and yeah, I'm fully aware. I've played both games, and played CTR for hundreds of hours, Jak X far less, but that because it wasn't as good of a game. They traded in the well controlled fun karts for high speed and more realistic physics. There's also worse weapons/abilities etc, simply put, they were less controllable and not always as fit to the tracks and the speed etc. I've beat the Oxide ghosts in CTR multiple times in the original game.

 

And I'm not talking about the complexity, just simply put, it just didn't feel anywhere near as good driving in that game in terms of control. CTR is usually considered the best kart racing game ever, only challenged by the latest Mario Kart game. It's not for the game's innovations, as it didn't invent anything as far as I'm concerned. It would have been the run of the mill kart game, except, the gameplay is so good. It nails the feel of driving the karts in a way no other kart game has done.

 

I'm not a huge racing fan generally, though I've played my fair share, but I think a thing a lot of people into the genre differentiate between is "arcade" and "simulator" controls. Basically about how the kart/car drives/controls, one pretty much trying to nail the CTR feel (arcade), while the other tries to nail Gran Turismo (simulator). Jak X had a lot of arcade elements, but was aiming more for simulator than arcade controls, and in so doing not really doing either all that well.

 

No they definitely cannot logically be compared, entirely. Otherwise, comparisons like Mario Kart to Split-Second and Crash Team Racing to GRIP are also "logical". It's moreso about how much sense it makes to make comparisons rather than the technicality to do so. Okay? Games of different genre share multiple properties as well.

 

The vehicle becomes easier to control the more you play, and I just gave an example of a method that helps make driving easier. I speak from experience, one involving being formerly selective with vehicles because I couldn't control other ones well... until I put effort into doing so and succeeded. (ND described the vehicles as "all having their own personalities", and it's 100% true.) So yeah, tricks like those previously mentioned aren't uncommon in the racing genre, and CTR is a blatant example of that as well, especially with the short hop spamming to control the kart and make sharp turns that's impossible otherwise.

 

I've also played both games, with Jak X being the one I have hundreds of hours in because of how insanely fun and good it is (levels, music, combat, etc). I know a game designer/kart enthusiast who also praises Jak X and thinks it's very underrated, which it is. Novacano also thinks good of the game, and one of his hobbies are in-depth game analysis. Jak X most definitely has better weapons, actually. The Oxide ghost and beating his times has nothing to do with this.

 

It feels relatively good for the hybrid kart-like racer it is... actually even that classification isn't right; it's a vehicular-combat arcade racer. Anyway, making those skid turns, especially with boost if you're competent enough, is massively satisfying. CTR is certainly not considered the best kart racing game ever (it was), it's just considered one of the best overall, and that has nothing to do with the main point. DKR is also a competitor alongside MK, it's not just MK, and I'd toss Modnation Racers in there to say the least. There are multiple aspects people agree even that CTR does worse than DKR. MK8 is also not the only MK installment that rivals the 1999 CTR. That's just very absurd to believe. But that's getting off topic. Controls are important in all racers, but it is objectively not the only thing that matters, especially when the controls of one specific game is at the very least fine enough if not great.

 

That's not entirely correct. There are kart racers, arcade racers, and racing simulators, as the main three. Jak X was aiming for arcade, and it did just that very well. (Otherwise, that's no different than saying Burnout Paradise is a racing-simulator... which it isn't.) Naughty Dog intentionally did not want to make a kart racer with this game, and they officially don't consider it one, hence my primary point before. But it's easily an arcade racer—a fantastic one at that—the sameway GRIP and Wipeout are.

Edited August 16, 2019 by EcoShifter

[MMDE]

47 minutes ago, LightEcoSage said:

 

No they definitely cannot logically be compared, entirely. Otherwise, comparisons like Mario Kart to Split-Second and Crash Team Racing to GRIP are also "logical". It's moreso about how much sense it makes to make comparisons rather than the technicality to do so. Okay? Games of different genre share multiple properties as well.

 

The vehicle becomes easier to control the more you play, and I just gave an example of a method that helps make driving easier. I speak from experience, one involving being formerly selective with vehicles because I couldn't control other ones well... until I put effort into doing so and succeeded. (ND described the vehicles as "all having their own personalities", and it's 100% true.) So yeah, tricks like those previously mentioned aren't uncommon in the racing genre, and CTR is a blatant example of that as well, especially with the short hop spamming to control the kart and make sharp turns that's impossible otherwise.

 

I've also played both games, with Jak X being the one I have hundreds of hours in because of how insanely fun and good it is (levels, music, combat, etc). I know a game designer/kart enthusiast who also praises Jak X and thinks it's very underrated, which it is. Novacano also thinks good of the game, and one of his hobbies are in-depth game analysis. Jak X most definitely has better weapons, actually. The Oxide ghost and beating his times has nothing to do with this.

 

It feels relatively good for the hybrid kart-like racer it is... actually even that classification isn't right; it's a vehicular-combat arcade racer. Anyway, making those skid turns, especially with boost if you're competent enough, is massively satisfying. CTR is certainly not considered the best kart racing game ever (it was), it's just considered one of the best overall, and that has nothing to do with the main point. DKR is also a competitor alongside MK, it's not just MK, and I'd toss Modnation Racers in there to say the least. There are multiple aspects people agree even that CTR does worse than DKR. MK8 is also not the only MK installment that rivals the 1999 CTR. That's just very absurd to believe. But that's getting off topic. Controls are important in all racers, but it is objectively not the only thing that matters, especially when the controls of one specific game is at the very least fine enough if not great.

 

That's not entirely correct. There are kart racers, arcade racers, and racing simulators, as the main three. Jak X was aiming for arcade, and it did just that very well. (Otherwise, that's no different than saying Burnout Paradise is a racing-simulator... which it isn't.) Naughty Dog intentionally did not want to make a kart racer with this game, and they officially don't consider it one, hence my primary point before. But it's easily an arcade racer—a fantastic one at that—the sameway GRIP and Wipeout are.

 

Your excuse of not being able to compare two games in the same genre is like saying you can't compare any games. Of course you can compare any game with another, entirely, logically. It's obvious you've never studied logic, and you probably should before you make such claims.

 

No, the vehicle doesn't get "upgrades" making them easier to drive by simply playing with them a lot. This is your claim, though I suspect you simply mean that you get better at the game the more you play it, which is the case with pretty much any game ever. You getting better at compensating for the worse controls doesn't make the controls better.

 

CTR plays really well without all the tricks. You don't need to compensate for bad controls, because they're not bad. The extra stuff just becomes stuff that allow you to always push to get even better.

 

DKR had terrible controls, way worse than MK, and Modnation Racers wasn't too bad, but the AI was horrendous. In MR you'd so often be in a massive lead before the last half of the last lap and then just get spammed by OP power ups and just lose. It was often better to just hang around in 2nd. And the load times? I personally stopped playing near the end when I just couldn't handle the load times. Anyway, MR didn't have as good controls as CTR, nor did LBPK.

 

I still claim MK8 is the only game that rivals CTR. Who cares when it was released?

 

No, that's is entirely correct, because now you're putting a different gameplay element alongside the driving style element of the game. It doesn't make sense to put "kart", "arcade" and "simulation" alongside each other. A racing game can be either arcade or simulation, not both, while both arcade and simulation could be kart, though it's not as normal for it to be a kart simulator, because it makes little sense. Yes, Jak X tried to be a hybrid, and in so getting the worse of each. AFAIK Burnout Paradise has arcade driving.

 

I'm pretty unsure what Wipeout is. It certainly has kart elements, but the driving elements, not sure if arcade or simulator.

Edited June 28, 2019 by MMDE

[EcoShifter]

On 6/28/2019 at 0:12 PM, MMDE said:

 

Your excuse of not being able to compare two games in the same genre is like saying you can't compare any games. Of course you can compare any game with another, entirely, logically. It's obvious you've never studied logic, and you probably should before you make such claims.

 

No, the vehicle doesn't get "upgrades" making them easier to drive by simply playing with them a lot. This is your claim, though I suspect you simply mean that you get better at the game the more you play it, which is the case with pretty much any game ever. You getting better at compensating for the worse controls doesn't make the controls better.

 

CTR plays really well without all the tricks. You don't need to compensate for bad controls, because they're not bad. The extra stuff just becomes stuff that allow you to always push to get even better.

 

DKR had terrible controls, way worse than MK, and Modnation Racers wasn't too bad, but the AI was horrendous. In MR you'd so often be in a massive lead before the last half of the last lap and then just get spammed by OP power ups and just lose. It was often better to just hang around in 2nd. And the load times? I personally stopped playing near the end when I just couldn't handle the load times. Anyway, MR didn't have as good controls as CTR, nor did LBPK.

 

I still claim MK8 is the only game that rivals CTR. Who cares when it was released?

 

No, that's is entirely correct, because now you're putting a different gameplay element alongside the driving style element of the game. It doesn't make sense to put "kart", "arcade" and "simulation" alongside each other. A racing game can be either arcade or simulation, not both, while both arcade and simulation could be kart, though it's not as normal for it to be a kart simulator, because it makes little sense. Yes, Jak X tried to be a hybrid, and in so getting the worse of each. AFAIK Burnout Paradise has arcade driving.

 

I'm pretty unsure what Wipeout is. It certainly has kart elements, but the driving elements, not sure if arcade or simulator.

 

No you cannot entirely, logically, reasonably compare any game just because they share similar genres. There's an extent. Games are complicated and mixed with other genres and elements. Your misunderstanding and broad argument about genre doesn't make any sense, as the racing genre is fairly diverse with multiple different types of designs. Controls in a racing simulator will never be as smooth or good as the controls in the CTR kart racer, only relatively so at best. I'm versed in logic, actually.

 

I never said "upgrades". You just pulled that out of thin air. No, that is YOUR claim. Except I got better because the game is naturally difficult and requires skill to master. I wouldn't be able to finish races, navigate stages, and hold my own against the brutal CPU if the controls were as bad as you've said, which they aren't.

 

Doesn't negate the fact that on some stages tricks and short hop spamming are essential to make certain turns or maneuver around a track. No racing game should encourage as much short hop spamming to navigate around a track as CTR does. MK8 keeps this to a very, very smaller minimum. 

 

Controls is merely one aspect, as well as A.I. Neither of those are even remotely sufficient points in saying the games you listed are inferior games, especially when CTR:NF has one of the worse A.I. in a kart racer, topping MnR. The power-ups weren't "OP" in MnR, and it looks like you're just making excuses for being bad at the game, especially if you prioritized boosting over using shield improperly. Again, that's just merely one area. CTR having better controls doesn't even remotely make it a better kart racer or supports the idea that it is, especially when other competing kart racers have good enough controls in their own right. "Racers" don't need to intimate CTR's controls, and it hasn't really been attempted by other companies. Plus, while CTR controls well it doesn't necessarily have as good kart driving controls as other kart racers.

 

Ok, that's strictly your own opinion. I and many other people say there are other kart racers that at the very least if anything rival CTR. There are other kart racers out there that objectively have better comparable designs than CTR, such as hub worlds, item variety and balancing, rosters, difficulty, level design, gameplay depth, etc. Well, you clearly didn't grasp the point behind me bringing up "1999", somehow.

 

No that's entirely incorrect like I said. Plain and simple, things/traditions evolve, and genres have been steadily evolving per generation, like racing becoming a genre of its own from being under sports, adventure and action typically being together now than apart, etc. There is no forever rule in situations like these. It's not a "different element", it's become core design type. Your following claim is nonsensical; developers do whatever they want with their games, and there are already examples of games blatantly doing both—the car-based Sonic racers and Blur just to name some. Neither of these games have conventional karting game controls and instead have non-jump drifting and more realistic handling that's similar to arcade racers/racing simulators, which is 100% supported by their frequent flat surface-long stretches of road level design.. just like arcade/racing simulators, yet they're both still boldly classified as kart racers. (You) Trying to categorize a game as only an arcade racer or simulator makes things too complicated and even inconsistent. If you tell a clueless person not familiar with kart racers that one is an arcade racer, they'll think of games more inline with Burnout, Wipeout, ONRUSH, OutRun, Split-Second, Need for Speed, etc. Generally, a lot of people feel the same-way as what I said... On the internet, you can find many list of "top arcade racers" without a single karting game on it and vise versa for kart focused ones. Plus, you'd look stupid regularly calling games like Mario Kart and CTR arcade racers in general conversation. Like I said, Jak X is a great arcade racer that clearly nailed the arcade design it was going for, including the controls.

 

Wipeout is without a doubt an arcade racer.

Edited August 16, 2019 by EcoShifter

[MMDE]

1 minute ago, LightEcoSage said:

 

No you cannot entirely, logically, reasonably compare any game just because they share similar genres. Games are complicated and mixed with other genres and elements. Your misunderstanding and broad argument about genre doesn't make any sense, as the racing genre is fairly diverse with multiple different types of designs. Controls in a racing simulator will never be as smooth or good as the controls in the CTR kart racer. You're the one that needs to clearly study logic before making the claims you do.

 

I never said "upgrades". You just pulled that out of thin air. No, that is YOUR claim. Except I got better because the game is naturally difficult and requires skill to master. I wouldn't be able to finish races, navigate stages, and hold my own against the brutal CPU if the controls were as bad as you've said, which they aren't.

 

Doesn't negate the fact that on some stages tricks and short hop spamming are essential to make certain turns or maneuver around a track. No racing game should encourage as much short hop spamming to navigate around a track as CTR does. MK8 keeps this to a very, very smaller minimum. 

 

Controls is merely one aspect, as well as A.I. Neither of those are even remotely sufficient points in saying the games you listed are inferior games, especially when CTR:NF has one of the worse A.I. in a kart racer, topping MnR. The power-ups weren't "OP" in MnR, and it looks like you're just making excuses for being bad at the game, especially if you prioritized boosting over using shield improperly. Again, that's just merely one area. CTR having better controls doesn't even remotely make it a better kart racer or supports the idea that it is, especially when other competing kart racers have good enough controls in their own right. "Racers" don't need to intimate CTR's controls, and it hasn't really been attempted by other companies. Plus, while CTR controls well it doesn't necessarily have as good kart driving controls as other kart racers.

 

Ok, that's strictly your own opinion. I and many other people say there are other kart racers that at the very least if anything rival CTR. There are other kart racers out there that objectively have better comparable designs than CTR, such as hub worlds, item variety and balancing, rosters, difficulty, level design, gameplay depth, etc. Well, you clearly didn't grasp the point behind me bringing up "1999", somehow.

 

No that's entirely incorrect like I said. Plain and simple, things/traditions evolve, and genres have been steadily evolving per generation, like racing becoming a genre of its own from being under sports, adventure and action typically being together now than apart, etc. There is no forever rule in situations like these. It's not a "different element", it's become core design type. Your following claim is nonsensical; developers do whatever they want with their games, and there are already examples of games blatantly doing both—the car-based Sonic racers and Blur just to name some. Neither of these games have conventional karting game controls and instead have non-jump drifting and more realistic handling that's similar to arcade racers/racing simulators, which is 100% supported by their frequent flat surface-long stretches of road level design.. just like arcade/racing simulators, yet they're both still boldly classified as kart racers. (You) Trying to categorize a game as only an arcade racer or simulator makes things too complicated and even inconsistent. If you tell a clueless person not familiar with kart racers that one is an arcade racer, they'll think of games more inline with Burnout, Wipeout, ONRUSH, OutRun, Split-Second, Need for Speed, etc. Generally, a lot of people feel the same-way as what I said... On the internet, you can find many list of "top arcade racers" without a single karting game on it and vise versa for kart focused ones. Plus, you'd look stupid regularly calling games like Mario Kart and CTR arcade racers in general conversation. Like I said, Jak X is a great arcade racer that clearly nailed the arcade design it was going for, including the controls.

 

Wipeout is without a doubt an arcade racer.

 

You should study logic, then get back to me. I've taken several classes in logic at university level, and what you say about logic doesn't make sense.

 

As I said, most games have a learning curve, but just because you get better at compensating for the poor controls, that doesn't make the controls better. CTR has good controls, Jak X simply doesn't, both you can get better at controlling the more you play, but in the case of Jak X it's more about compensating for the poor controls. I know this is difficult for you, because you got a bias towards your beloved Jak.

 

You don't need to skip, slide or jump in CTR. I've beaten several Oxide ghosts without drifting a single time. If you want to really succeed against the strongest of strong human players, yes, you must do all in your power to get an advantage. Also, this is an arcade style kart game, not simulator with barely any hard turns and jumps etc.  A problem with Jak X is that it has a lot of that while still trying to do a lot of simulator stuff.

 

In most aspects CTR is one of the very best in the genre.

 

• CTR has hub worlds... Not sure what that has to do with anything though. I can totally see how it could be better with some nice challenges to find or get to various races or secrets etc, DKR did that better probably, but again, I don't see how this is all that relevant.
• Item variety and balancing? Not really seen it don better.
• What about the rosters? It's pretty balanced.
• CTR can both be easy and super difficult, it does this so well.
• Great level design, can't say I can recall better.
• Gameplay depth?? no idea what you're talking about at this point

Yeah, your point about "1999" is just simply bad. At some date the best game in a genre will be released, what year that is, does it matter? In 10 years, there's not many of the current games you'll still be talking about, but CTR is one of those people have already been talking about for 20 years. When a game is released is not relevant.

 

It doesn't matter if the general trend is improvement, even though that's definitely not true. It depends a lot more on the success of each game, and who worked on it, and what they focused on. A lot of newer games spends so much time on the totally wrong things IMO. In no genre is this more clear than role playing games for example. In the case of racer games, improvements in simulation is more than likely improving in the right hands, but we're talking about an arcade kart racer. Nobody doubt you got better graphics and simulation of gravity now, but that doesn't automatically make for a better game, especially when you don't try to simulate real gravity. I've done some game projects myself, and sometimes I simply don't use the built-in physics engine, it just doesn't work well with certain gameplay elements in mind. Sometimes something way more simple is way better.

 

There's a lot to put Wipeout in both categories I think.

 

[M0HX-VIP]

at first I felt like that too.. but after playing for literally 5 straight days I got used to it and everything seems PERFECT!

iv been playing this game since I was a kid. I agree that some aspects do not have the feeling of the original but overall It is well made.

 

 

 

 

[EcoShifter]

20 hours ago, MMDE said:

As I said, most games have a learning curve, but just because you get better at compensating for the poor controls, that doesn't make the controls better. CTR has good controls, Jak X simply doesn't, both you can get better at controlling the more you play, but in the case of Jak X it's more about compensating for the poor controls. I know this is difficult for you, because you got a bias towards your beloved Jak.

 

You don't need to skip, slide or jump in CTR. I've beaten several Oxide ghosts without drifting a single time. If you want to really succeed against the strongest of strong human players, yes, you must do all in your power to get an advantage. Also, this is an arcade style kart game, not simulator with barely any hard turns and jumps etc.  A problem with Jak X is that it has a lot of that while still trying to do a lot of simulator stuff.

 

Yeah, your point about "1999" is just simply bad. At some date the best game in a genre will be released, what year that is, does it matter? In 10 years, there's not many of the current games you'll still be talking about, but CTR is one of those people have already been talking about for 20 years. When a game is released is not relevant.

 

It doesn't matter if the general trend is improvement, even though that's definitely not true. It depends a lot more on the success of each game, and who worked on it, and what they focused on. A lot of newer games spends so much time on the totally wrong things IMO. In no genre is this more clear than role playing games for example. In the case of racer games, improvements in simulation is more than likely improving in the right hands, but we're talking about an arcade kart racer. Nobody doubt you got better graphics and simulation of gravity now, but that doesn't automatically make for a better game, especially when you don't try to simulate real gravity. I've done some game projects myself, and sometimes I simply don't use the built-in physics engine, it just doesn't work well with certain gameplay elements in mind. Sometimes something way more simple is way better.

 

There's a lot to put Wipeout in both categories I think.

 

 

And as I told you, Jak X has a learning curve as well, one probably higher than CTR, and the controls aren't poor if I can master all vehicles and maneuver around the tracks without much issue in addition maintaining my control of the vehicles. CTR has better overall controls for what it's trying to do than Jak X does for what it's trying to do, but your persistently exaggerated claim that Jak X controls are as bad as you say will never be true. Considering how difficult you are as well as your desperation to always insert the Jak series out of context in comparison to other games in an attempt to make it look bad, you can't talk about anyone being biased. You have a habit of doing this with Jak, especially Jak X and in comparison to CTR, and it comes across obsessive and desperate. But then again looking at that signature....

 

By that poor logic, you don't need to do that in any racing game, since you're implying using the brakes to slow down and make turns is a viable option and strong argument. I doubt you did that, but even if you had, it doesn't amount to anything since Oxide is objectively easier on some stages, rather than having universally similar difficulty across all the stages. The same thing naturally applies to N. Tropy. That is not a problem with Jak X; it's suppose to have complementing arcade-racing elements, as that's good game design and makes it feel cohesive overall. It does everything else related excellently (in-depth vehicle customization, great level design, great high speed action, great racing-action-y OST, etc) outside controls, which it just does good. 

 

No my point isn't bad at all, you just clearly didn't grasp it and tried twisting it to justify a flawed argumentative point you're currently trying to push. Never did I say or imply that old games can't be better than newer games, you said that. The point I actually made was that CTR is certainly not the best karting game of all time. The 1999 part was for emphasis (against the illogical "better than MK8D" point) and to separate it from the recently released remaster.

 

It definitely is true, hence why the term is nearly 100% used over "arcade racer" for kart racing actual games. (It doesn't need an official separation to be considered separate, unless we're being completely professional. Otherwise, you're also saying it's wrong to call stealth games stealth games and survival games survival games, among other examples.) I already provided the facts supporting that point, whereas you're just injecting your own personal views on the matter. Well, the rest of that post is filler and contributed nothing to the topic.

 

Wipeout is an arcade racer.

[MMDE]

2 hours ago, LightEcoSage said:

 

And as I told you, Jak X has a learning curve as well, one probably higher than CTR, and the controls aren't poor if I can master all vehicles and maneuver around the tracks without much issue in addition maintaining my control of the vehicles. CTR has better overall controls for what it's trying to do than Jak X does for what it's trying to do, but your persistently exaggerated claim that Jak X controls are as bad as you say will never be true. Considering how difficult you are as well as your desperation to always insert the Jak series out of context in comparison to other games in an attempt to make it look bad, you can't talk about anyone being biased. You have a habit of doing this with Jak, especially Jak X and in comparison to CTR, and it comes across obsessive and desperate. But then again looking at that signature....

 

By that poor logic, you don't need to do that in any racing game, since you're implying using the brakes to slow down and make turns is a viable option and strong argument. I doubt you did that, but even if you had, it doesn't amount to anything since Oxide is objectively easier on some stages, rather than having universally similar difficulty across all the stages. The same thing naturally applies to N. Tropy. That is not a problem with Jak X; it's suppose to have complementing arcade-racing elements, as that's good game design and makes it feel cohesive overall. It does everything else related excellently (in-depth vehicle customization, great level design, great high speed action, great racing-action-y OST, etc) outside controls, which it just does good. 

 

No my point isn't bad at all, you just clearly didn't grasp it and tried twisting it to justify a flawed argumentative point you're currently trying to push. Never did I say or imply that old games can't be better than newer games, you said that. The point I actually made was that CTR is certainly not the best karting game of all time. The 1999 part was for emphasis (against the illogical "better than MK8D" point) and to separate it from the recently released remaster.

 

It definitely is true, hence why the term is nearly 100% used over "arcade racer" for kart racing actual games. (It doesn't need an official separation to be considered separate, unless we're being completely professional. Otherwise, you're also saying it's wrong to call stealth games stealth games and survival games survival games, among other examples.) I already provided the facts supporting that point, whereas you're just injecting your own personal views on the matter. Well, the rest of that post is filler and contributed nothing to the topic.

 

Wipeout is an arcade racer.

 

It doesn't get better just because it has a learning curve... Higher than CTR? I don't know, but maybe since you have to compensate for the poor controls.

 

I was massively disappointed when I played Jak X on PS2. I had hoped it'd be a new and better CTR, but it was just way worse. The sales reflects this as well. It did actually glitch my memory card, so it lost memory, which is impossible to recover without running unlicensed software on the PS2.

 

It definitely was the best, until MK8, but now it's more questionable.

[TurtlePM]

25 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

It doesn't get better just because it has a learning curve... Higher than CTR? I don't know, but maybe since you have to compensate for the poor controls.

 

I was massively disappointed when I played Jak X on PS2. I had hoped it'd be a new and better CTR, but it was just way worse. The sales reflects this as well. It did actually glitch my memory card, so it lost memory, which is impossible to recover without running unlicensed software on the PS2.

 

It definitely was the best, until MK8, but now it's more questionable.

 

My main disappointment from Naughty Dog was the abstention of a PS3 game called UnKarted  

[SadisticSymphony]

Whoever thought the the bosses on hard need to spew out endless weapons needs a bullet, and shouldn't work on any game ever again. It's the most unbalanced thing I've ever seen in a game.

Edited July 4, 2019 by SecondGenesis

[Adras_Nightmare]

14 minutes ago, SecondGenesis said:

Whoever thought the the bosses on hard need to spew out endless weapons needs a bullet, and shouldn't work on any game ever again. It's the most unbalanced thing I've ever seen in a game.

 I had a very hard time against Pinstripe yesterday and it took me 45 minutes on Medium, I just can't Imagine what Hard could be. If he could get in front of me I was 100% sure I was getting a bomb to my face in a matter of a few turns. If I remember well it was like this also on PSX, though.

[SadisticSymphony]

9 hours ago, Adras_Nightmare said:

 I had a very hard time against Pinstripe yesterday and it took me 45 minutes on Medium, I just can't Imagine what Hard could be. If he could get in front of me I was 100% sure I was getting a bomb to my face in a matter of a few turns. If I remember well it was like this also on PSX, though.

 

Yeah, I never played much of the original, let alone on hard, but Oxide was a nightmare, so cheap.

[Adras_Nightmare]

11 hours ago, SecondGenesis said:

 

Yeah, I never played much of the original, let alone on hard, but Oxide was a nightmare, so cheap.

I managed to beat him on my second attempt yesterday (still playing on Medium though), but I guess it was due to a lucky missile which got him while he was about to jump. Definitely fearing Hard mode, I guess I'll go for the Time Trials first.

[SadisticSymphony]

2 hours ago, Adras_Nightmare said:

I managed to beat him on my second attempt yesterday (still playing on Medium though), but I guess it was due to a lucky missile which got him while he was about to jump. Definitely fearing Hard mode, I guess I'll go for the Time Trials first.

 

Yeah, I've done most of the time trials ( Only 4 Oxide ones left ) then decided to give Hard mode a blast. Definitely easier after the trials

[EcoShifter]

On 7/2/2019 at 1:22 PM, MMDE said:

 

It doesn't get better just because it has a learning curve... Higher than CTR? I don't know, but maybe since you have to compensate for the poor controls.

 

I was massively disappointed when I played Jak X on PS2. I had hoped it'd be a new and better CTR, but it was just way worse. The sales reflects this as well. It did actually glitch my memory card, so it lost memory, which is impossible to recover without running unlicensed software on the PS2.

 

It definitely was the best, until MK8, but now it's more questionable.

 

Yeah it does. Because the game becomes more enjoyable and you see your skill level increase and pay off on the race-tracks.

 

Yes, you. I on the other hand was incredibly delighted when I played Jak X on PS2. It most definitely turned out to be the better overall game product, especially with the online inclusion and implementation... Till this day/generation, many online games still lack multiple features that JX had, including CTR:NF and even MK8. Jak X was also great for the fact that it offered a different experience that couldn't be had in CTR, Twisted Metal, Burnout 3, Burnout: Revenge, Crash Tag Team Racing, etc. The sales are irrelevant for multiple different factors (timing, console's life status, etc). Uncharted Drake's Fortune didn't do hot either, selling inferior copies to at least both the first two Jak games and taking it a few years to reach under 2.7mil sales. So... taking out your anger on the game by massively downplaying it because you had issues, such as a glitched save data? Save data belonging to me and others weren't corrupted, and I can probably provide a screenshot of my old save data showing so assuming it tracks year.

 

It was exceeded way before even MK8 came out. CTR is not that good. That's absurd, especially considering like you said you haven't played many racing games, let alone even half the ones out there. There have been a decent amount of superior kart racers, especially without as many illegal shortcuts as CTR ridiculously has. CTR:NF's horrid online system also goes to show how bad the ultra boost and item system has aged. 

 

On 7/4/2019 at 6:33 AM, Adras_Nightmare said:

 I had a very hard time against Pinstripe yesterday and it took me 45 minutes on Medium, I just can't Imagine what Hard could be. If he could get in front of me I was 100% sure I was getting a bomb to my face in a matter of a few turns. If I remember well it was like this also on PSX, though.

 

On 7/5/2019 at 6:02 AM, SecondGenesis said:

 

Yeah, I've done most of the time trials ( Only 4 Oxide ones left ) then decided to give Hard mode a blast. Definitely easier after the trials

 

Wait till you'll fight Oxide again in AM.

Edited August 16, 2019 by EcoShifter

[MMDE]

25 minutes ago, LightEcoSage said:

 

Yeah it does. Because the game becomes more enjoyable and you see your skill level increase and pay off on the race-tracks.

 

Yes, you. I on the other hand was incredibly delighted when I played Jak X on PS2. It most definitely turned out to be the better overall game product, especially with the online inclusion and implementation... Till this day/generation, many online games still lack multiple features that JX had, including CTR:NF and even MK8. Jak X was also great for the fact that it offered a different experience that couldn't be had in CTR, Twisted Metal, Burnout 3, Burnout: Revenge, Crash Tag Team Racing, etc. The sales are irrelevant for multiple different factors (timing, console's life status, etc). Uncharted Drake's Fortune didn't do hot either, selling inferior copies to at least both the first two Jak games and taking it a few years to reach under 2.7mil sales. So... taking out your anger on the game by massively downplaying it because you had issues, such as a glitched save data? Save data belonging to me and others weren't corrupted, and I can probably provide a screenshot of my old save data showing so assuming it tracks year.

 

It was exceeded way before even MK8 came out. CTR is not that good. That's absurd, especially considering like you said you haven't played many racing games, let alone even half the ones out there. There have been a decent amount of superior kart racers, especially without as many illegal shortcuts as CTR ridiculously has. CTR:NF's horrid online system also goes to show how bad the ultra boost and item system has aged. 

 

 

I'm sure it's more pleasant to play when you're better able to compensate for the bad controls. Doesn't make the controls better by playing the game more, just you being able to better compensate for them being bad.

 

The Jak series almost killed Naughty Dog. The fact that some of them still wanted to make more games, tragic. The general public simply didn't buy them as much as their previous games. CB1-3 and CTR sold a lot. Even Jak 1 sold a good amount, but Jak 2 sold less, and Jak 3 even less. Jak X, had bad sales for ND. They seem to struggle back to relevancy with UC1, people not giving UC1 the attention it probably deserved, but people seemed to like it so when UC2 came out, it was a huge success. It's a bit like Demon's Souls before Dark Souls. Demon's Souls was a sleeper hit, while with Dark Souls it took totally off. And this is because nobody is giving the company's next release a lot of attention when their previous games haven't been big hits. The Jak series really damaged their rep.

 

Crash Tag Team Racing had waaay worse controls, nitro was even worse.

 

Later releases of Jak X didn't ruin memory cards, but initial release did.

 

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/927166-jak-x-combat-racing/41999721

https://awesomegames.miraheze.org/wiki/Jak_X:_Combat_Racing

 

You'll find info on it many other places too. It's not something I've invented.

 

I don't know what issues you have with the item system. And the ultra boost should only be available in some very few locations, and wasn't available in all versions of the game.

[EcoShifter]

On 7/5/2019 at 3:30 PM, MMDE said:

 

I'm sure it's more pleasant to play when you're better able to compensate for the bad controls. Doesn't make the controls better by playing the game more, just you being able to better compensate for them being bad.

 

The Jak series almost killed Naughty Dog. The fact that some of them still wanted to make more games, tragic. The general public simply didn't buy them as much as their previous games. CB1-3 and CTR sold a lot. Even Jak 1 sold a good amount, but Jak 2 sold less, and Jak 3 even less. Jak X, had bad sales for ND. They seem to struggle back to relevancy with UC1, people not giving UC1 the attention it probably deserved, but people seemed to like it so when UC2 came out, it was a huge success. It's a bit like Demon's Souls before Dark Souls. Demon's Souls was a sleeper hit, while with Dark Souls it took totally off. And this is because nobody is giving the company's next release a lot of attention when their previous games haven't been big hits. The Jak series really damaged their rep.

 

Crash Tag Team Racing had waaay worse controls, nitro was even worse.

 

Later releases of Jak X didn't ruin memory cards, but initial release did.

 

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/927166-jak-x-combat-racing/41999721

https://awesomegames.miraheze.org/wiki/Jak_X:_Combat_Racing

 

You'll find info on it many other places too. It's not something I've invented.

 

I don't know what issues you have with the item system. And the ultra boost should only be available in some very few locations, and wasn't available in all versions of the game.

 

That's the whole point of video games, and the game's good controls allows that. It's a good thing the controls aren't bad, because if they were the game would be practically unplayable, which it fortunately is not.

 

The games still sold millions and became millions of people's favorite and best played games of all times. Like I said, sales are irrelevant. General consensus has Jak II listed as the best game in the series, regardless of what you believe (I've been involved in numerous Jak communities and other communites over the likes of Facebook, Youtube, JaD forums, GF, Wikipedia, Reddit, etc, so I actually know this), and it's one of the co-founders favorite games he ever worked on. At best TPL and Jak II are tied in terms of what people consider is the better game. Its easy to bandwagon TPL, and people have, but it doesn't make it better. The Jak series made them immensely better developers and brought them to where they are currently. The games are argubly also more fun than Uncharted in addition to having more interesting storylines. The Uncharted series burrowed so many similar concepts from the Jak series it's a bit ridiculous. 

 

"By giving Jak a voice, it allowed Naughty Dog to explore new narrative techniques that allowed them to create a grittier world with a much more developed and evolved storyline.

 

The narrative tropes Naughty Dog explored in Jak and Daxter laid the foundation for the evolution of their highly innovative story telling. It put them on the path that led to the creation of future blockbuster franchises like Uncharted and The Last of Us— and to think it all started with giving Jak his own voice." -PlaystationBlog

 

There's a lot of references, from both ND and observant fans, about how Jak and Daxter did exactly what that insert says plus more for Naughty Dog, but that alone suffices. Additionally, ND almost killed themselves a few times during actual development of games like Uncharted 2 and The Last of Us.

 

Don't tell me you're completely oblivious to the mess CTR:NF is in currently. The game is utterly terrible right now across the board and currently one of the worse remasters ever, all gameplay, technical, balancing, online, level design, etc wise. The game has issues in quite literally like every area, and the seemingly inevitable addition of micro-transactions will make it much worse.

Spoiler

 

- Illegal shortcuts/cheating

(Also this stage has been removed from matchmaking. Now that's crazy.)

 

 

 

 

- the infamous Save Corruption Glitch, which mind you can happen online or from time trials.

 

- long loading times (most notable in racing modes against CPU/players)

 

- broken item system 

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/253551-crash-team-racing-nitro-fueled/77829679 (do note that this is far from the only place and time where this topic has been mentioned, in addition to distribution not being the only issue with the item system) I'll also add this...

Spoiler: 9 orbs were used in that single race.

 

- constant freezing and game errors

 

- And so much more. There's so many issues that it's tedious to bother listing any more. If you're actually active in any decently big CTR:NF community, you should be aware of at least half the issues the game has. That's on top of the game not even offering basic game industry features, features.. like voice chat. 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by EcoShifter