Should Big Leagues be a flaggable trophy?

[Starcade_Legend]

25 minutes ago, Sinthoras_96 said:

There are even topics in the forum with people asking for modded items.... 

Since they weren't locked I don't think anyone here has a problem with that

 

 

Interesting.  During disputes, CRT has been known to search other websites for admission of trophy hacking/modding.  But this goes seemingly unchecked.  Curious to hear from admin on this topic...?

[charxsetsuna]

 

49 minutes ago, Starcade_Legend said:

Interesting.  During disputes, CRT has been known to search other websites for admission of trophy hacking/modding.  But this goes seemingly unchecked.  Curious to hear from admin on this topic...

It's one rule for one game and one rule for another 

[DaivRules]

2 hours ago, AJ_-_808 said:

 

To be fair, this particular trophy is an almost unique case where the developers disabled/refused to fix part of the game while the game is still online/active and the trophy affected would normally be simple to get.

 

Similar to Gwent with CDPR disabling 2/3 of the game (and 8 or so trophies), but leaving the servers up for 6 months

 

Developer negligence should be taken into consideration for this in my opinion.

 

I think writing down the exact (measurable) qualifications that allows for an exemption for this game is where it all needs to start. Then the members can start evaluating any other games under the same conditions so that any time just points to this game and says "I think this other game should also be an exemption" the list of qualifications can be compared and decide how similar or different the titles are.

 

Developers disable or refuse to fix other games while they're game is still online. Little Deviants has two online trophies that work only under certain very rare conditions and the Developer folded before the game launched. Should people be able to have someone pop those last two normally simple trophies and allow people to keep the game on their profile?

 

Writing down all those conditions in asking for a whitelist is important to establish consistency in enforcement/qualifications.

 

[Agent_Renegade22]

1 hour ago, willmill97 said:

I got the trophy legit years and years ago, but I don't think everyone else should be flagged, especially if another hacker gets the trophy for them in a lobby, same with Run With The Wind on PS3 GTA5. The devs fucked this up for people, so I don't think it's fair people can't platinum these great games anymore. 

The situation with "Run Like the Wind" is even more grotesque imho, because of this particularly reasons:

 

1) It's true that you "need" a hacker that put a bounty on you but you still need to fulfill the requirement for that trophy because as far as I know the trophy doesn't simply autopop, you still need to survive those 50 minutes for the trophy to pop so it's kinda legit after all;

2) To be honest that trophy seems to be still possible to earn legit if for some reason you left the game with a bounty on you and never played it again.

 

And ok, I agree the second has little chances, but for example, if you look at my trophy list I earned my first mp trophy on GTA V on September 2014 and the last was one month later and I've never touched the game  again (seriously I didn't even do singleplayer) until I found out bounties were disabled from Rockstar and I still kept not playing it for that reason.

This really sucks, I'm not sure if I left the game with a bounty because it has been 6 years now but even if it is a little chance for that imagine how many players can be in that situation.

Anyway how can you prove that? This is just crazy.

 

I was pretty doubtful about "Big Leagues", but c'mon let's be honest, a lot of games that were shut down or with disabled functions are still possible to do with exploits, glitches, mode menus etc...

I've recently did Warlord Glitch on FC2 and I don't even feel completely "clean" tbh, why these things are allowed and trophies like RLTW and Big Leagues no? 

The "you use an in-game glitch/exploit not a ""hacking""  " reason just makes me laugh because FC2 would be a super ultra rare platinum doing it truly LEGIT and so a lot of games.

 

[dtb345]

10 hours ago, CriesOfFurya said:

I think this newly re-discovered solution for this trophy has been put in a bit of a bad light here. I see this as an opportunity to get countless players here the chance to finally finish the Call of Duty game series, as every single installment, other than BO2, is still possible. I do not see this as a chance for everyone who ran into a hacker online, suddenly trying to justify unlocking half of the trophies for the game within 30seconds.

 

We just have to be very strict about what would be allowed with this new method:

1. Big Leagues needs to be the last trophy you unlock for the 100% in the game, no exceptions. Not Big Leagues and 3 other trophies at once, just Big Leagues.

2. People who joined a hacked lobby and unlocked all trophies that way, still need to delete the user before those trophies are synched and then they can try it again, until everything but Big Leagues has been unlocked regularly.

 

I do realise that this was not intended by the devs and that it's not an ideal solution for this problem, but it's definitely a justifiable one. We as a trophy hunter community have been striving to find different methods to salvage some of these unobtainable games and we have had quite the success with games like Unreal Tournament, Bulletstorm and much more. I know that in these games you can still perform all the actions actually needed to unlock he trophies, eventhough you are not playing on the "offical" servers anymore. With this game we would be indeed saving 30mins because you don't actually have to play those 5 placement matches, but that completely pales in comparison to unlocking all these other trophies in the game, which will porbably take well over 100hrs for most players.

 

We as a community have been abusing features like that for years, only difference is that they were just in-game glitches and this one is a bit more unorthodox. Examples for that:

Wolfenstein leaderboard copy, Far Cry 2 level 30 glitch, resetting games to their original 1.00 version and making things easier (like Rainbow Six for example), dev menus in the likes of Jax 2/ Conan etc and countless more exploits. This one is no different in the time saving department, even if it has a shady origin with someone that originally created this menu.

 

I think under a stricly gouverned regime this could be a great opportunity to finally get many interested players this trophy, while they still finish 99,5% of this great game normally. The same is basically already happening with the whitelisting of the Run Like the Wind trophy in GTA V (PS3) and I say that it's a more modern and less strict way of looking at making some of these unobtainable trophies possible again.

Furthermore I'm pretty sure that a majority of the plaers who already got the 100% for this game years ago, would not mind this method at all, since we still have to complete practically the whole 100%, going for a lenghty single player with some annoying challenges, prestiging once and getting some quite challenging Zombies trophies.

 

 

I mean what reason would there be to be truly against this? Everything can be done by yourself without having to use any external hardware, just owning the game and a PS3 will easily get you this trophy, if done in the correct way. I'm pretty sure that everyone who ever 100%ed this game will know, that Big Leagues is not a trophy that would stand in anyones way and I think it would deserve the same respect, as anyone who was lucky enough to get the trophy back in the days when it was still possible. If there was another way, anyone who is able to get 100% in this game, would just load up the league mode and simply play 5 matches. I mean you could even just idle them. 

 

I'm truly sorry, but you two unlocked way more trophies than just Big Leagues and the platinum at the same time. All of those are perfectly achievable and you should have left the game, backed up all your savefiles and then deleted the user. It would have taken you like 5-6hrs to do that, but you should not have synched the trophies to your account like this. I know it's a nuisance and unfair that a random did that to you, but you should have handeled it differently. 

 

These kind of situations are not the ones that we as a community want to justify with this theatre mode method. Me and others are just interested in finlly being able to get all the CoDs done and this is a golden opportunity for that.

The theater mode is up and running. This method works RIGHT NOW and it is a way to unlock Big Leagues as your last trophy... 

I know what i could have done the bad thing is that once i saw all trophys getting popped i instantly checked trophy list (Which means it had to sync) Saw the platnium and was like thats odd?
And than i got into trophy hunting and found out i could have stopped it

[CriesOfFurya]

6 hours ago, DaivRules said:

 

I think writing down the exact (measurable) qualifications that allows for an exemption for this game is where it all needs to start. Then the members can start evaluating any other games under the same conditions so that any time just points to this game and says "I think this other game should also be an exemption" the list of qualifications can be compared and decide how similar or different the titles are.

 

Developers disable or refuse to fix other games while they're game is still online. Little Deviants has two online trophies that work only under certain very rare conditions and the Developer folded before the game launched. Should people be able to have someone pop those last two normally simple trophies and allow people to keep the game on their profile?

 

Writing down all those conditions in asking for a whitelist is important to establish consistency in enforcement/qualifications.

 

Thank you so much for keeping an open mind for this! If I may, I would like to suggest some of those "qualifications" that I have written out:

 

 

The rules would be that this workaround can only be used to unlock the Big Leagues trophy last to pop the platinum, all other trophies must be earned normally and not popped with this workaround.

 

That way the rarity of the platinum and 100% are not dented and the work of others who earned the 100% before december 2015 is not put in a bad light as the exploit is merely used to pop a single trophy that was incredibly easy to do before it became unobtainable and took 30 minutes to do. Anyone earning the 100% with this exploit is doing literally everything as pre-2015 people did apart from that one trophy that has been neglected by an infamously greedy and uncaring publisher who actually released patches after this trophy became unobtainable and still neglected the trophy.

 

Again I must reiterate that the trick can be done by anyone without having to have a CFW console, manipulated save files or anything of the kind. In the vote for whitelisting, the community was massively in favour of it but i think people who want to do this game can understand the reservations that some people, including the cheater team had, about autopopping the entire list being allowed. This exploit is a perfect middleground when combined with the policy of "You must only use it for Big Leagues to pop the plat/100% and nothing else". That policy is really the emphasis of this to make it fair on those who already achieved 100%.

 

This could be combined with a new type of flag as discussed previously where you do not contribute to the stats for the game or the achievers list BUT you do not receive a flag for the game nor are you asked to hide it. It appears on your profile and contributes to your personal stats but not the website stats. However, I feel that this step is overboard for the reasons i've explained above, but not one to be eliminated entirely if the cheater team want further security over this issue.

 

 

I can ssure you, whitelisting this method would only make the community of this game extremely happy and there would be no harm done to anyone, if people follow those rules outlined above. 

[WatertownsFinest]

https://youtu.be/moSFlvxnbgk

[Sinthoras_96]

2 hours ago, dtb345 said:

I know what i could have done the bad thing is that once i saw all trophys getting popped i instantly checked trophy list (Which means it had to sync) Saw the platnium and was like thats odd?
And than i got into trophy hunting and found out i could have stopped it

On PS3 you can set your local trophy list to "show offline". It doesn't auto synch then 

[AJ_-_808]

20 minutes ago, Sinthoras_96 said:

On PS3 you can set your local trophy list to "show offline". It doesn't auto synch then 

Unfortunately, a lot of people learn these little tricks after it's too late.  I roll my eyes in every dispute where some people expect the disputer to already and automatically know how to delete the unsynced trophies, as if it's common sense

[charxsetsuna]

4 hours ago, Sinthoras_96 said:

On PS3 you can set your local trophy list to "show offline". It doesn't auto synch then 

How are people supposed to know how to delete trophies if they played the game before they started trophy hunting. A lot of people who play cod only care about online with friends and have never even heard of trophy hunting.

[REAPER4536]

[charxsetsuna]

1 hour ago, REAPER4536 said:

 

Did you mean to post something? Or is the blank post intentional?

[DaivRules]

6 hours ago, CriesOfFurya said:

Thank you so much for keeping an open mind for this! If I may, I would like to suggest some of those "qualifications" that I have written out:

 

The rules would be that this workaround can only be used to unlock the Big Leagues trophy last to pop the platinum, all other trophies must be earned normally and not popped with this workaround.

 

 

I don't think you understand what I meant by qualifications and you're jumping right to how to implement. 

 

Under what conditions should this or any game qualify for a whitelist?

 

For example, the game must:

• Only have XXX number of unobtainable trophies
• The developer must not have announced the trophy becoming unobtainable before it becomes unobtainable
• The developer must have turned off some portion of online that is required to obtain the unobtainable trophies
• The player must still be able to complete the actions required to obtain the unobtainable trophies
• The modifications to the game that allow unobtainable trophies must not have been created or accessed by the original mod creator by using custom firmware

And so on.

[Gray-Fox-44]

6 hours ago, CriesOfFurya said:

Thank you so much for keeping an open mind for this! If I may, I would like to suggest some of those "qualifications" that I have written out:

 

 

The rules would be that this workaround can only be used to unlock the Big Leagues trophy last to pop the platinum, all other trophies must be earned normally and not popped with this workaround.

 

That way the rarity of the platinum and 100% are not dented and the work of others who earned the 100% before december 2015 is not put in a bad light as the exploit is merely used to pop a single trophy that was incredibly easy to do before it became unobtainable and took 30 minutes to do. Anyone earning the 100% with this exploit is doing literally everything as pre-2015 people did apart from that one trophy that has been neglected by an infamously greedy and uncaring publisher who actually released patches after this trophy became unobtainable and still neglected the trophy.

 

Again I must reiterate that the trick can be done by anyone without having to have a CFW console, manipulated save files or anything of the kind. In the vote for whitelisting, the community was massively in favour of it but i think people who want to do this game can understand the reservations that some people, including the cheater team had, about autopopping the entire list being allowed. This exploit is a perfect middleground when combined with the policy of "You must only use it for Big Leagues to pop the plat/100% and nothing else". That policy is really the emphasis of this to make it fair on those who already achieved 100%.

 

This could be combined with a new type of flag as discussed previously where you do not contribute to the stats for the game or the achievers list BUT you do not receive a flag for the game nor are you asked to hide it. It appears on your profile and contributes to your personal stats but not the website stats. However, I feel that this step is overboard for the reasons i've explained above, but not one to be eliminated entirely if the cheater team want further security over this issue.

 

 

I can ssure you, whitelisting this method would only make the community of this game extremely happy and there would be no harm done to anyone, if people follow those rules outlined above. 

As someone who had some difficulties in getting this trophy back in the day due to the region-based conditions of the matchmaking process and the low amount of players that showed up, I can say that something like this wouldn't be bad for me at all. As a matter of fact, I would support it as long as the trophy is strictly unattainable because the developers couldn't care less about the people who bought their games.

[charxsetsuna]

3 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

I don't think you understand what I meant by qualifications and you're jumping right to how to implement. 

 

Under what conditions should this or any game qualify for a whitelist?

 

For example, the game must:

• Only have XXX number of unobtainable trophies
• The developer must not have announced the trophy becoming unobtainable before it becomes unobtainable
• The developer must have turned off some portion of online that is required to obtain the unobtainable trophies
• The player must still be able to complete the actions required to obtain the unobtainable trophies
• The modifications to the game that allow unobtainable trophies must not have been created or accessed by the original mod creator by using custom firmware

And so on.

The last rule will make nearly all games like this fail.

I'm of the opinion that if anyone can do it without installing cfw on their own console then its perfectly fine. After all how different is this to a debug mode?

[KainZ7]

incredible, this gigantic conversations about "hacked loobies", "getting 1 hacked trophy", where if the hackers really want, they can use the ps3/ps vita trophy unlocking tool and get the trophy then setting the trophy timestamp to any date before the servers shutdown....and no one would ever notice.

 

also, thats the reason online trophies sucks, they set in the game a "best before" date...

[DaivRules]

26 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

The last rule will make nearly all games like this fail.

I'm of the opinion that if anyone can do it without installing cfw on their own console then its perfectly fine. After all how different is this to a debug mode?

 

So if anyone uses CFW to modify trophies on someone elses account, that account with modified trophies should be eligible to stay on the leaderboards because they didn't directly use CFW themselves?

 

A debug mode doesn't require anyone to use CFW, even the first person to find it.

 

Also, you missed the point. How do you list out qualifications for a game to be whitelisted so that there is a logical process to determining whether a game qualifies. If you don't have that, then there is no order. Once that is done, the items on the list can be analyzed for whether they're logical or acceptable.

Edited June 8, 2020 by DaivRules

[charxsetsuna]

8 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

So if anyone uses CFW to modify trophies on someone elses account, that account with modified trophies should be eligible to stay on the leaderboards because they didn't directly use CFW themselves?

 

A debug mode doesn't require anyone to use CFW, even the first person to find it.

It's about everyone having equal access to the trophy, if anyone can do it then theres no one missing out.

Last time I checked red dead was allowed and that was the same concept but i dont see people mass flagging people who got red dead like that back in the day.

[DaivRules]

Just now, charxsetsuna said:

It's about everyone having equal access to the trophy, if anyone can do it then theres no one missing out.

Last time I checked red dead was allowed and that was the same concept but i dont see people mass flagging people who got red dead like that back in the day.

 

I added to my previous post, but I'll add it here again:

 

Quote

You missed the point. How do you list out qualifications for a game to be whitelisted so that there is a logical process to determining whether a game qualifies. If you don't have that, then there is no order. Once that is done, the items on the list can be analyzed for whether they're logical or acceptable.

 

You also seem to have avoided by response. Everyone can reach out to someone else with some variation of CFW to unlock their trophies in just about any game. So since they didn't use the CFW on their own console, they're all free to do so, since it's available to everyone?

[charxsetsuna]

9 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

I added to my previous post, but I'll add it here again:

 

 

You also seem to have avoided by response. Everyone can reach out to someone else with some variation of CFW to unlock their trophies in just about any game. So since they didn't use the CFW on their own console, they're all free to do so, since it's available to everyone?

You added it after I quoted you, I can't see the future .

Theres a difference between asking someone to do it for you and just using theatre mode..so answer this,do you think red dead should be flagged if people used the method or is that the magical exception?

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by charxsetsuna

[DaivRules]

Just now, charxsetsuna said:

You added it after I quoted you, I can't see the future .

Theres a difference between asking someone to do it for you and just using theatre mode..so answer this,do you think red dead be flagged if people used the method or is that the magical exception?

 

 

I'm aware I added it after, I was letting you know so you could respond.

 

I can't compare the two games until the baseline for what should or shouldn't be flagged is listed out. Hence needing whatever qualifications you're basing things on. 

[charxsetsuna]

5 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

I'm aware I added it after, I was letting you know so you could respond.

 

I can't compare the two games until the baseline for what should or shouldn't be flagged is listed out. Hence needing whatever qualifications you're basing things on. 

It wasnt me that made the list.

 

My qualifications are this then-

1) be available without having to go out of your way to ask a hacker.

2)not installing cfw on your own console.

3)I'm not too bothered about having to do the required actions, But it helps at least.

[CriesOfFurya]

3 hours ago, DaivRules said:

 

I don't think you understand what I meant by qualifications and you're jumping right to how to implement. 

 

Under what conditions should this or any game qualify for a whitelist?

 

For example, the game must:

• Only have XXX number of unobtainable trophies
• The developer must not have announced the trophy becoming unobtainable before it becomes unobtainable
• The developer must have turned off some portion of online that is required to obtain the unobtainable trophies
• The player must still be able to complete the actions required to obtain the unobtainable trophies
• The modifications to the game that allow unobtainable trophies must not have been created or accessed by the original mod creator by using custom firmware

And so on.

In that case I would say:

 

1. The number of unobtainable trophies is irrelevant, as long as the trophies can be unlocked in a way they could have been unlocked back when it was possible. For example:

Allowed
Just this trophy at the end of everthing else (BO2) / Run Like the wind as the last trophy (GTA V)

 

Grey Zone

Dead Island / Borderlands / Red Dead Redemption etc. - All of these have modded items that allow you to make the game severly easier and less time consuming, however they are not detectable by looking at someone's trophies and because of that they cannot be flagged. With these games you will just have to trust someone's word or not, no other way about it. 

 

Not Allowed

If someone added a mod menu to a game like Bulletstorm and now it allows you to instantly reach the highest level in the multiplayer and unlock all the kill related trophies at the same time.  You can access this menu without modding or abusing anything yourself in this scenario. What I'm saying with this is that it was not possible to unlock the trophies in such a manner when the game was still online. Like a level 5 and a level 20 trophy at the same time, without a known glitch that would have allowed this.

I know this is a made up one, but there is no case quite like this at the moment. 

 

 

 

2. It doesn't matter if this was announced or not. Some people might not have the free time to actually finish a game after it was announced to get taken down, so why should they lose out on it if another method like this was found in the future? 

 

3. Yes, I agree. The trophy has to be completely unobtainable by regular means, however it had to be possible in the past. 

 

4. No, if we are really that strict with it debug menus and glitches would be just as bad since you don't have to complete what was required for the trophy. Wolfenstein level 25 and 50 for example. However we should approach this one with common sense. Something like Big Leagues and Run like the wind don't pose any challenge difficulty wise and they are not time consuming. If a method was found with one of these mod menus to unlock something that originally took 50hrs and was quite challenging, it should not be allowed. Maybe even have the community of one of these games vote on it if it would be acceptable. 

 

5. Indeed. If the only way was to have a CFW yourself, someone else's savefile or any of the likes, it would not be allowed. It needs to be accesible by any player in the game, without any additional hardware needed. That's exactly what the theatre mode in Black Ops 2 allows you at the moment. It's actually not that much different than using community levels to unlock trophies, in games like Minecraft or LittleBigPlanet. 

 

3 hours ago, Gray-Fox-44 said:

As someone who had some difficulties in getting this trophy back in the day due to the region-based conditions of the matchmaking process and the low amount of players that showed up, I can say that something like this wouldn't be bad for me at all. As a matter of fact, I would support it as long as the trophy is strictly unattainable because the developers couldn't care less about the people who bought their games.

Oh damn, I'm sorry that must have been annoying, however you do see how easy this trophy was and quick regardless of those problems right? My point was just that "normally", this trophy takes virtually no effort and I was hoping that hunters who already did this trophy would agree with me that this trophy is just such a miniscule obstacle for the 100% in BO2.

 

 

[DaivRules]

@CriesOfFurya I was just throwing things out there as an example. If it were up to me, I'd either flag everyone for Red Dead or remove Black Ops II (Big Leagues) and GTA (RLTW) from leaderboards all together and be done with the matter. It's a good thing I have no say in the matter.

Without thinking of specific games, really try to consider objective conditions that shouldn't change over time and make a list of conditions that makes sense. Not just to get one game qualified, but conditions that would make any game with the same conditions also qualify. Those are the conditions that need to be discussed, not the "people would really like this lifted" argument, that's just an emotional appeal.

 

Just keep in mind, you're still advocating for people to use CFW to create these mod menus to unlock other people's trophies so as long as you're saying mod menus are okay, you're saying it's okay for CFW to unlock trophies.

[Eagle]

My personal opinion about general topics that have been discussed in this thread:

 

Whitelisting for when a hacker autopops your trophies in online lobbies - I agree, as, in my opinion, it's not fair to be punished (even if it's not a major punishment) because of someone else, and, while there are methods to circumvent this, they are convoluted and not widely known. I know this would give an opportunity for hackers to pop trophies for themselves and then claim someone popped their trophies for them, but, in this case, it's the lesser of two evils, as there are much more people who were actually playing legit that had the misfortune of having this happen to them than hackers wanting to take advantage of the situation.

 

Using a mod menu to pop Big Leagues - I disagree, as I think that, if a trophy is unobtainable, it's unobtainable and that's it. It doesn't matter if it was easy or hard in the past, if it took 30 minutes or 30 hours, if the developers took care of the servers or not, or whatever other factor could be taken into consideration, it's still not supposed to be unlocked through normal means.

 

Flagging macros/scripts/RDR modded lobbies/Borderlands modded weapons - As much as I think they should be flaggable offenses, I know there's no way to detect their usage, so I wouldn't mind having it as it is now.

 

Flagging cheats/boosting/debug menus - I disagree, because it's something you don't need any external software (directly or indirectly) to do. And, in the case of boosting, you wouldn't be able to detect its usage either.

 

Having a special flag, in which trophies don't count towards score but don't need to be hidden - While I think that's a good idea, I don't know how hard that would be to implement, so wouldn't necessarily mind not having this either.

 

I will admit I have not played the game, so I'm not the best person to speak about it, but there are my ramblings to whoever wants to read them and discuss anyway.