Alihsan621

Should Big Leagues be a flaggable trophy?

528 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, DaivRules said:

I do not know who is the ultimate decision-maker or the process (if there is one) to discuss leaderboard rules/modifications.

 

Sly's the ultimate decision maker. The last time the rules changed, he took the opinions of the existing CRT team at that time, and then made a decision.

 

In my opinion, the rules are extremely weak already, and nothing should change to make the existing rules become even more CFW friendly. Right now the leaderboard is a free-for-all with everyone playing a different "trophy game", each with way too many loopholes. Pretty much the only thing people universally seem to want included in the rules that would be flaggable are "bad timestamps" which people can just easily cover up immediately by hiding their trophies / deleting their main or blank account / avoid syncing / etc with said loopholes.

 

A whitelist is acceptable, but not more.

 

It's also a challenging issue to improve leaderboard standards without alienating the user base, and/or keeping things fair for newer trophy hunter generations with anything that may be grandfathered. Trophies are "forever" unlike other sports where a reset happens in between seasons where rules may be modified.

 

 

Edited by B1rvine
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11 minutes ago, Sinthoras_96 said:

This doesn't make any sense at all. If someone has all trophies but Big Leagues and then pops it, there is no way to tell if they joined a hacked lobby or copied the menu and popped it. Also, if you use this menu, AFAIK, all trophies will pop. You can't choose specific ones. So that would actually encourage people to just autopop everything with the menu, whilst the method @CriesOfFurya described would still require you to earn all trophies (including DLCs) but Big Leagues legit and put in a lot of work and time.

 

Hmm, good point. I think that, in this situation, the inverse logic to what I stated earlier about the whitelist could be used. As in: if the person managed to spend all that time hunting for trophies and never once encountered a hacker, it's highly unlikely they would find one during the last few matches as opposed to using the mod menu. A few honest people would end up being unfairly punished, true, but it would, again, be the lesser of two evils.

 

Of course, we're theorizing about how to create a perfect balance, but the thing is: some people are gonna get screwed, no matter what. CRT will probably have to either whitelist the whole thing or keep it as it is now (which is more convenient), as to avoid loopholes or anything of the sort, and accept the backlash from half of the people.

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Honestly all I want from this topic is consistency with all games . At the moment some games that have this situation are just ignored and not flagged while others are flagged.

My personal opinion has always been, flag them all or flag none of them. Consistency is my only real concern.

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5 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Honestly all I want from this topic is consistency with all games . At the moment some games that have this situation are just ignored and not flagged while others are flagged.

My personal opinion has always been, flag them all or flag none of them. Consistency is my only real concern.

 

You can't have consistency with all games. The RDR exploits were publically recommended on this website in the trophy guides and on the forums for years. To now go back and make that retroactively an offense would be nothing short of ludicrous and utterly unfair. 

 

It may be possible to make guidelines for future games but the ones for this game have been outlined. A whitelisting with a new kind of flag would be optimal; it satisfies everyone pretty much. You get the game on your profile and complete the COD series but you don't affect the stats on the site. This would be a great solution to help people who want to do the game and consider the situation unfair and also for those who have been flagged (perhaps unfairly in the eyes of many) who do not know about psnprofiles, who don't expect to have to delete their user every time they play the online for a game in one of the most popular gaming series of all time, or people who believe that it shouldn't be flagged in the first place as it's out of your control. 

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4 minutes ago, Potent_Delusions said:

 

You can't have consistency with all games. The RDR exploits were publically recommended on this website in the trophy guides and on the forums for years. To now go back and make that retroactively an offense would be nothing short of ludicrous and utterly unfair. 

 

It may be possible to make guidelines for future games but the ones for this game have been outlined. A whitelisting with a new kind of flag would be optimal; it satisfies everyone pretty much. You get the game on your profile and complete the COD series but you don't affect the stats on the site. This would be a great solution to help people who want to do the game and consider the situation unfair and also for those who have been flagged (perhaps unfairly in the eyes of many) who do not know about psnprofiles, who don't expect to have to delete their user every time they play the online for a game in one of the most popular gaming series of all time, or people who believe that it shouldn't be flagged in the first place as it's out of your control. 

Fair enough,  I see what your saying however as long as different games have different rules there can be no completely agreed on guidelines.

Multiple people have stressed there needs to be set in stone rules, I'm personally on the side of having a whitelist and I think flagging red dead is ridiculous. But this talk of erasing loopholes is null as long as the most blatant loophole still stands.

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Posted (edited)

Quote

You can't have consistency with all games. The RDR exploits were publically recommended on this website in the trophy guides and on the forums for years. To now go back and make that retroactively an offense would be nothing short of ludicrous and utterly unfair. 

 

It may be possible to make guidelines for future games but the ones for this game have been outlined. 

 

It's really not that different, though

 

When a modder popped Big Leagues for me, it was at a time when nobody was being flagged for it, and Sly had explicitly said there must be 3 suspicious trophies for a flag to go through

 

Pretty convenient that they reversed this policy and started cracking down on everyone just as I got it. Well, everyone except that 1 guy that got it "in a different era", whatever that means

Edited by hore
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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, hore said:

 

It's really not that different, though

 

When a modder popped Big Leagues for me, it was at a time when nobody was being flagged for it, and Sly had explicitly said there must be 3 suspicious trophies for a flag to go through

 

Pretty convenient that they reversed this policy and started cracking down on everyone just as I got it. Well, everyone except that 1 guy that got it "in a different era", whatever that means

I doubt that they are targeting you specifically, when did they imply the flags would  be ignored? I remember them saying run like the wind and gta rank trophies would be ignored but never cod.

 

If they did imply this then it just makes this even more messy.

Edited by charxsetsuna
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As a newish hunter myself. I think having older trophy lists out of reach are just fine. It's like WarHawk when I still owned a PS3 years ago I wanted to play it but never did, never got around to it. Then when I heard of the server closing I could've went out there bought a used PS3 and the game but I didn't. To me it was a thing that I didn't even bother trying the game out back then. Why suddenly come to it now. And in that sense I can see that with this game, GTAV and many others that have unobtainable trophies. If you wouldn't give it the same thought of day back then. Why should wanting it now all of a sudden encourage someone to do something to autopop a trophy just because "It's my last one."

 

The thing is too and this is where the separation for RLTW from GTAV and this trophy can come in too since alot of people like to use both as examples why the other should be allowed. While both trophies can only be obtained by hacking. (Both trophies must be started or popped by someone using cfw.) With Big Leagues the ranked league is no more. RLTW as some argue is partially true is still obtainable after getting the bounty placed by legitimately waiting for it to expire. Big Leagues there is no division bracket anymore to place in there is no way to get 5 wins. There is no legitimate way to earn it anymore.

 

And I bring up this difference because it highlights something @DaivRules kept asking but not many here seemed to accurately get. What rules if any so clearly defining that you could use for the basis of a white list. You either say any obtained by hacking are gone or none are and open up the Pandora's box of cfw here. But as he tried explaining the issue comes with these trophies people can argue "well they can do this, this should be the same". By it's not though, because alot of these ways people can obtain these trophies have key differences that would make them invalidated on one list or another.

 

Also on the topic of exploits  and mod weapons. Exploits are generally seen as okay in most circles (hell professional speedrunners will even use them in some runs to set faster records) but the thing that generally makes exploits okay is that they are doing something in the game which is in an unmodified state. (Meaning the exploit can only be done in some version of the game that was released to all gamers by the dev without having any modifications to it by an outside user.)

 

Mod Weapons are a complicated thing they definitely can't be tracked and sometimes at first glance you may not even realize their modded until you use them. (The random generation of guns in Borderlands for example means someone could create a gun that's stronger then the average without being god tier then most people may not know what they actually had unless they really looked up what rolls a specific gun has.) But as I said earlier if it comes to you finding or getting dropped a gun that's modded why not just toss? What compels you to use it, so you have an easier time on what's most likely a game you could've easily beaten legitimately without it?

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On 8.6.2020 at 0:32 AM, DaivRules said:

 

I think writing down the exact (measurable) qualifications that allows for an exemption for this game is where it all needs to start. Then the members can start evaluating any other games under the same conditions so that any time just points to this game and says "I think this other game should also be an exemption" the list of qualifications can be compared and decide how similar or different the titles are.

 

Developers disable or refuse to fix other games while they're game is still online. Little Deviants has two online trophies that work only under certain very rare conditions and the Developer folded before the game launched. Should people be able to have someone pop those last two normally simple trophies and allow people to keep the game on their profile?

 

Writing down all those conditions in asking for a whitelist is important to establish consistency in enforcement/qualifications.

 

I’ll do this

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2 hours ago, Lord_Bane999 said:

As a newish hunter myself. I think having older trophy lists out of reach are just fine. It's like WarHawk when I still owned a PS3 years ago I wanted to play it but never did, never got around to it. Then when I heard of the server closing I could've went out there bought a used PS3 and the game but I didn't. To me it was a thing that I didn't even bother trying the game out back then. Why suddenly come to it now. And in that sense I can see that with this game, GTAV and many others that have unobtainable trophies. If you wouldn't give it the same thought of day back then. Why should wanting it now all of a sudden encourage someone to do something to autopop a trophy just because "It's my last one."

 

The thing is too and this is where the separation for RLTW from GTAV and this trophy can come in too since alot of people like to use both as examples why the other should be allowed. While both trophies can only be obtained by hacking. (Both trophies must be started or popped by someone using cfw.) With Big Leagues the ranked league is no more. RLTW as some argue is partially true is still obtainable after getting the bounty placed by legitimately waiting for it to expire. Big Leagues there is no division bracket anymore to place in there is no way to get 5 wins. There is no legitimate way to earn it anymore.

 

And I bring up this difference because it highlights something @DaivRules kept asking but not many here seemed to accurately get. What rules if any so clearly defining that you could use for the basis of a white list. You either say any obtained by hacking are gone or none are and open up the Pandora's box of cfw here. But as he tried explaining the issue comes with these trophies people can argue "well they can do this, this should be the same". By it's not though, because alot of these ways people can obtain these trophies have key differences that would make them invalidated on one list or another.

 

Also on the topic of exploits  and mod weapons. Exploits are generally seen as okay in most circles (hell professional speedrunners will even use them in some runs to set faster records) but the thing that generally makes exploits okay is that they are doing something in the game which is in an unmodified state. (Meaning the exploit can only be done in some version of the game that was released to all gamers by the dev without having any modifications to it by an outside user.)

 

Mod Weapons are a complicated thing they definitely can't be tracked and sometimes at first glance you may not even realize their modded until you use them. (The random generation of guns in Borderlands for example means someone could create a gun that's stronger then the average without being god tier then most people may not know what they actually had unless they really looked up what rolls a specific gun has.) But as I said earlier if it comes to you finding or getting dropped a gun that's modded why not just toss? What compels you to use it, so you have an easier time on what's most likely a game you could've easily beaten legitimately without it?

The first part oversimplifies things a bit too much. First of all, the shutdown of this game mode was never announced, unlike other proper server shutdowns.

 

Second of all, you are saying you just didn't get a PS3 even if you could've. You always have to consider some factors when something like this gets announced (or doesn't):

 

1. Time: Sometimes the time frame for something like Warhawk is too short for some people to even finish it in that time, because they are working, supporting a family, having different hobbies they can't just completely drop or maybe they are also trying to go for other games at the time that were also planned. 

 

2. Money: Self-explanatory. Not everyone might be in a position to just jump onto any game they would like to do at any time. 

 

3. Information: Only very few threads on the internet will warm you about server shutdowns and sometimes they don't even get updated and people found out because of the Twitter post of a publisher or so. Unless you are a very well connected gamer with information like these, you might even miss out on something, solely because no one told you/ you didn't see it anywhere in time.

 

4. Luck: Maybe you just departed on your honeymoon for 2 weeks and they just announced the shutdown for a FIFA challenge trophy in a week from now. You would have to play 10mins to get it done, but obviously you will have no way of doing that.

Also maybe your account didn't even exist when this shutdown was a thing. So why should we stop trying to go for unobtainable games when we as a community even have things like Gonespy? Genuinely bringing back shutdown servers, just so we can go for it again. This one is no different, other than that the method of obtaining it is not ideal, I know that myself. However I'm positive that it's a good thing to bring unobtainable games back, if we can.

 

For this one we would just have to slightly change the parameters, similar how the trophy hunter community accepted glitches, downgrading methods, proxies, the Vita region glitch and some elitist might even complain about boosting. If you try hard enough, you could pretty much hate on anything someone else does. 

 

But like I said many times in here now and many others too, this is just about getting this damn trophy in an extremely specific situation, not justifying hacking in every possible way like we are opening Pandora's box here or something. 

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26 minutes ago, CriesOfFurya said:

But like I said many times in here now and many others too, this is just about getting this damn trophy in an extremely specific situation, not justifying hacking in every possible way like we are opening Pandora's box here or something. 

 

But has been stated before, we don't know we're opening Pandora's box until the conditions for approving this don't let dozens or hundreds of other situations that weren't considered ride on this exception.

 

Just saying "Black Ops II will be whitelisted." And not explaining the parameters for why this game was whitelisted will cause even more arguments down the road. Don't focus on the game or one trophy, focus on the conditions that make you so adamant that this should be on a (possible future) whitelist.

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36 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

But has been stated before, we don't know we're opening Pandora's box until the conditions for approving this don't let dozens or hundreds of other situations that weren't considered ride on this exception.

 

Just saying "Black Ops II will be whitelisted." And not explaining the parameters for why this game was whitelisted will cause even more arguments down the road. Don't focus on the game or one trophy, focus on the conditions that make you so adamant that this should be on a (possible future) whitelist.

1)must be accessible to everyone without directly asking a hacker 

2)no cfw installed on your own console

 

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2 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

1)must be accessible to everyone without directly asking a hacker 

2)no cfw installed on your own console

 

 

So any game that meets both and only these conditions should be eligible to be whitelisted? And how will these two conditions be tested and proven?

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5 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

So any game that meets both and only these conditions should be eligible to be whitelisted? And how will these two conditions be tested and proven?

a crt or trusted member will play the game and confirm that the method works. Once confirmed that it passes these two tests it is then added to the whitelist. 

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Just now, charxsetsuna said:

a crt or trusted member will play the game and confirm that the method works. Once confirmed that it passes these two tests it is then added to the whitelist. 

 

And how do we test and prove the second condition?

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3 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

And how do we test and prove the second condition?

When they test it and its proven it can be done without putting cfw on your own console. That's it,  proving its possible to do.

 

Some people will cheat it sure, but we need to have some trust in the community here. Think that way and we will never have a whitelist. 

 

Anyways cheaters hardly ever only cheat once, even if they dont get flagged for one game, a close enough look at the rest of their list will probably reveal like 5 more cheated games.

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Just now, charxsetsuna said:

When they test it and its proven it can be done without putting cfw on your own console. That's it,  proving its possible to do.

 

Some people will cheat it sure, but we need to have some trust in the community here. Think that way and we will never have a whitelist. 

 

Anyways cheaters hardly ever only cheat once, even if they dont get flagged for one game, a close enough look at the rest of their list will probably reveal like 5 more cheated games.

 

So then why have the second condition at all?

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Just now, DaivRules said:

 

So then why have the second condition at all?

Think that way and literally all ps3 games should be flagged, think that way and all private servers would have to be flagged.

Just because "well it could be cheated with cfw"(not a actual quote)

 

The last condition is there to prove its possible to do without putting cfw on your console. And then we just have to have faith in the community that they are doing it in the approved way. 

 

Have some faith in the community please.

 

 

 

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Just now, charxsetsuna said:

Think that way and literally all ps3 games should be flagged, think that way and all private servers would have to be flagged.

Just because "well it could be cheated with cfw"(not a actual quote)

 

The last condition is there to prove its possible to do without putting cfw on your console. And then we just have to have faith in the community that they are doing it in the approved way. 

 

Have some faith in the community please.

 

You want consistency, you said it's "all you want" earlier, but now you'd like to operate on faith. Consistency comes from guidelines and qualifications. If you don't spell them out and justify them, then you don't get consistency.

 

You can stop assuming whatever it is you're assuming I'm "thinking that way", when I've been very specific on what is actually needed to make this possible, but you haven't provided yet.

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2 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

You want consistency, you said it's "all you want" earlier, but now you'd like to operate on faith. Consistency comes from guidelines and qualifications. If you don't spell them out and justify them, then you don't get consistency.

 

You can stop assuming whatever it is you're assuming I'm "thinking that way", when I've been very specific on what is actually needed to make this possible, but you haven't provided yet.

Ok then, if you are to use this new method you have to take a video and put it in a megathread for the game in question to prove you didnt install cfw. 

If you have the trophy and you have no video evidence to prove there was no installed cfw then you get flagged.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, DaivRules said:

 

And how do we test and prove the second condition?

 

Well, someone could record the test and upload the video on the internet.

 

Edit: now I see it's the same reply as the one above.

Edited by talespagni
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6 hours ago, charxsetsuna said:

I doubt that they are targeting you specifically, when did they imply the flags would  be ignored? I remember them saying run like the wind and gta rank trophies would be ignored but never cod.

 

If they did imply this then it just makes this even more messy.

I didn't mean to imply that; obviously they weren't targeting me, it was just (in)convenient timing since the Big Leagues achievers weren't purged until 2017 (when i'd already gotten it, or was about to)

 

Just look at this post by Sly on the matter. Some people argue it was an uninformed post since Big Leagues is clearly not a "glitch", but it seems obvious to me that he knew this and was simply absolving people that earned Big Leagues as their last trophy

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I’d like to get in contact with some members and mods who are tempted to work out some conditions for some sort of white list. Feel free to contact me and we’ll set up a discord and discuss about it

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, hore said:

I didn't mean to imply that; obviously they weren't targeting me, it was just (in)convenient timing since the Big Leagues achievers weren't purged until 2017 (when i'd already gotten it, or was about to)

 

Just look at this post by Sly on the matter. Some people argue it was an uninformed post since Big Leagues is clearly not a "glitch", but it seems obvious to me that he knew this and was simply absolving people that earned Big Leagues as their last trophy

Yeah that 5 trophy rule is never listened to, For any games.

Edited by charxsetsuna
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Posted (edited)

27 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Yeah that 5 trophy rule is never listened to, For any games.

 

I thought Sly's statement when I saw it just now was maybe from an ethical point of, " don't do this? "

 

But after looking into the flag system, a statement such like such is indeed listed before you flag somebody.

 

WeATTnT.png

 

Since this is a big discussion about 1 trophy and people getting flagged, I think this is disregarded?

Edited by Bumperklever
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