FFVIII Censorship

[thefourfoldroot]

On 9/7/2019 at 9:29 AM, DaivRules said:

How do we confirm when it’s censorship versus when a different design is chosen?

 

My biggest problem is the propagation of this boogeyman theory that some tiny secret 3rd party force has all this power to step into these projects and start calling shots. 

 

I’m not talking about the developers that have (transparently) come out and said their material doesn’t clear the platform holders expectations.  I’m talking about when that is absent, like in this game. 

Generally, when it is the female body being hidden. When it is jokes against gay or trans people being change. Essentially when it hits any of the trigger points that would cause controversy with the current generation (for right or wrong) we can say with confidence that censorship is very likely indeed. It is an unfortunate fact that an extreme minority of (mostly) non gamers have a disproportionate voice due to social media, something that just wasn't the case 20 years ago. It has also resulted in a rise in the activ(ist) mentality of those who just feel it their duty to make an impact. This is not a bogeyman, it is just how the world is now.

On 9/7/2019 at 2:59 PM, MyNameIs_Rainman said:

 

I was thinking the same thing. If it was truly an issue about censorship, Shiva would probably be the first to get the treatment, as she has little to no ice covering her parts in pretty much every FF iteration. I think for Siren it was just more of a design interpretation choice being made, as they maybe felt given the current climate it would be more tasteful...still..then why not Shiva, or Edea, Ultimecia...etc? And if that's the case what about the wardrobe choices of characters in recent games like Cindy from XV? It just doesn't add up and its too erratic to pin it down on just censorship.

Because the devs still want to create half naked women, but occasionally the ethics department steps in and forces them to change things in a rather irratic manner. It's likely Shiva wasn't an enforced change because her colouring makes her look less like a human female. Also, there is probably a focus on removing so called "upskirting"  for anything on a Sony platform if recent games are anything to go buy. This half skirt, as stupid as it sounds, was probably skirting the line in the minds of idiots.

On 9/7/2019 at 3:36 PM, yellowwindow7 said:

before someone throw the blame to Sony.

 

this is all made by Square Enix, the Switch, XBONE and even the PC version is also got these redesign or censorship if you wanna call it that, though on PC the modding community managed to alter the looks back to the original ps1 looks.

Not talking about this game specifically, but the period where we would often get different versions of games is gone. Sony changed to a more woke mindset mid development phase so a new version of games had to be made for them. Now devs will just default to a Sony baseline to avoid the cost of additional versions having to be made.

 

10 hours ago, Nighcisama said:

[...] why have I decided to be adamant about not touching this series again? Because of shit like this here. Censoring and changing things in the remaster of a game several decades old? Remakes that will be snipped into several fragments and released as several smaller games at a time instead of all at once so they could milk more money out of the players? Debates and trench fights over characters being changed for the sake of appeasement towards a mentally insane and perpetually triggered fraction of a minority? Hell no, miss me with all that shit, terrible practices through and through. It is not even about what exactly is censored or changed for some shitty agenda, it is a matter of principle plain and simple. Any developer who does that to his games can kiss me where my cheeks meet, because I am not about to support that kind of behavior, I won't give Sony the green light to keep doing this shit with more and more games either, you mangle the product I won't be buying it. Anyone dismissing this kind of thing because he thinks it is only minor details or he does not care about things like character design in the first place shoukd realize one thing, that this is how it usually starts. Censoring shit always starts out minor and gets progessively worse the longer there is no backlash, and in a few years we might be back in the days of green and blue blood, forcefully changed stories to make them more PG, and character designs having actual inherent limitations.

Exactly this. How people do not understand how censorship works despite examples throughout human history I do not know. It's a matter of drawing a line for the actual game buying public, as well as taking a principled stand.

[GuerrerDaurat]

12 hours ago, Lance_87 said:

I want to know from European, non-English speakers/players (German, Spanish, French... not Italian, as i can confirm it myself) if Selphie's weapons are called "nunchakus" in their localized versions. I keep reading this story about them being renamed to some other random word because they were illegal or something.

 

Selphie's weapons are called nunchakus in the Spanish version for sure. AFAIK, the word was only changed in the English PAL version. 

[Lance_87]

7 hours ago, AJ_-_808 said:

 

Wiki isnt necessarily the definitive answer.  Also, that wiki quote says "likely due to", meaning whoever wrote that is just taking a guess.  If it had something to do with a ratings board, then how did the other previously cited examples (Shiva, ifrit, etc) not get covered up?

 

I think somewhere earlier in this thread was a quote from the artist saying it was a redesign to better match their vision.

 

 

 

Well, but he didn't post the source about the redesign.

 

Weren't Shiva and Ifrit already covered in all versions?

 

27 minutes ago, DocJackson- said:

 

Selphie's weapons are called nunchakus in the Spanish version for sure. AFAIK, the word was only changed in the English PAL version. 

 

Thank you, now we need confirmation from people with the German and French editions.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Lance_87

[AJ_-_808]

1 hour ago, Lance_87 said:

 

Well, but he didn't post the source about the redesign.

 

Weren't Shiva and Ifrit already covered in all versions?

 

That could be my mistake then, I thought a link was posted.  It's honestly not important enough for me to go back and dig through 8 pages to find it.

 

 

Shiva's "cover" is debatable 

Ifrit is sporting full bush

 

I guess the argument for those two is that they look less human, but to me, that seems weak at best. 

[VoidVictorious]

6 hours ago, Elvick_ said:

Accepting a little is what makes it worse... lol.

And what do you think a solution is? We can't do anything about it. As far as I know, nobody here works at Square Enix to change their internal structure and decisions to be less dumb. "Wow, people on the internet have discussions about things that don't solve the problem! What a shock!" Well, yeah. That's what the internet is for. Discussion. We can't do anything about it. Unless you're suggesting we storm their HQ, hop on the computers and program the fixes we want in the game while fending off the police. Which is dumb. The only other alternative is what people don't want to have to resort to, waiting for modders to fix the games for them. The company should be doing it right the first time so we feel good about supporting them.

I think if you’re really serious about starting change or stopping it in this case you start small and organize letter writing. Bury them with paper. It may seem small, but I had a friend that posted a really nasty message about Sunset Overdrive’s challenge system on the Xbox One and it was changed the next day.

 

As for the discussions in threads about censorship, you must realize that no one of any importance or consequence reads them or cares. They are just a series of sarcastic, and in some cases, mean spirited complaints. 

 

I was being serious about the laugh test I proposed. If you cannot read your complaint about censorship out loud without it seeming silly it isn’t that serious.

 

I think the biggest issue you face currently is the current movement of sexual allegations against men in all industries. Those allegations whether they are true or not ruin lives. Now is just not the time anyone wants to be faced with allegations of sexism or worse sexual harassment.

 

That movement is dying down a bit so things will get better but they will never be the same. More women work in the game industry than ever before and that is a good thing! Censorship needs to be serious for you to successfully get results with the steps I suggested. The bottom line is that if it is something small like a crotch being covered or less cleavage, you are stuck with it. 

 

Those kinds of changes are not a slippery slope that lead to massive censorship. Those changes were made either by design or to appease an audience that simply had no voice when the game was originally made. Times have changed.

 

Back to the original point: I encourage you to communicate with the people that matter and can cause change. Arguing about it in a forum every time anything in any game is censored doesn’t do anything except waste energy. 

 

The internet is meant for discourse but please realize that these threads are created several times for every new game that comes out. Unless you guys pick your battles, it is hard to take this stuff seriously when the same arguments are made over and over by the same people.

Edited September 9, 2019 by VoidVictorious

[starcrunch061]

HUZZAH!!! The censorship thread. I've been holding back for days!!!

 

My take: Siren needed a re-design. Whether it's censorship or not, it's welcome. Her model in the original FFVIII was atrocious. I remember playing the game in grad school, and every person who saw it asked, "Is that her pubic hair?" She looked absurdly stupid.

 

Rinoa's change is mind-boggling. Yes, she showed some cleavage, but so what? Her outfit was tasteful, and certainly no more ridiculous than Squall in his odd leatherboy-meets-hunter outfit. 

 

To be honest, what really pisses me off here is (of course) Square Enix. They just don't get it. They make blanket changes, not because they think any mores have changed, but just to say that they made blanket changes. It's the classic Japanese nonsense. 11-year-old girl 1000-year old with 11-year-old appearance is naked in game. Woman wears shirt which shows cleavage. We can't tell the difference, so ax it all!!

 

Phew - glad that's done.

[DaivRules]

11 hours ago, AJ_-_808 said:

I think somewhere earlier in this thread was a quote from the artist saying it was a redesign to better match their vision.

 

 

4 hours ago, Lance_87 said:

 

Well, but he didn't post the source about the redesign.

 

I thought I did...

 

The magazine and scans of the article are now available online for those want the article to translate for themselves.

[Lance_87]

You were talking about FF7 and couldn't find anything about FF8. We are looking for sources about Siren's redesign.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Lance_87

[AJ_Radio]

On 9/8/2019 at 4:38 PM, Nighcisama said:

But why have I decided to be adamant about not touching this series again? Because of shit like this here. Censoring and changing things in the remaster of a game several decades old? Remakes that will be snipped into several fragments and released as several smaller games at a time instead of all at once so they could milk more money out of the players? Debates and trench fights over characters being changed for the sake of appeasement towards a mentally insane and perpetually triggered fraction of a minority? Hell no, miss me with all that shit, terrible practices through and through. It is not even about what exactly is censored or changed for some shitty agenda, it is a matter of principle plain and simple. Any developer who does that to his games can kiss me where my cheeks meet, because I am not about to support that kind of behavior, I won't give Sony the green light to keep doing this shit with more and more games either, you mangle the product I won't be buying it. Anyone dismissing this kind of thing because he thinks it is only minor details or he does not care about things like character design in the first place shoukd realize one thing, that this is how it usually starts. Censoring shit always starts out minor and gets progessively worse the longer there is no backlash, and in a few years we might be back in the days of green and blue blood, forcefully changed stories to make them more PG, and character designs having actual inherent limitations.

 

The reason they do it is because they know little kids might be exposed to it. That's the entire reason a lot of this shit gets censored in the first place.

 

Censorship groups cracked down on explicit rock lyrics and music videos revealing a bit of sexual innuendo over 30 years ago. A decade later Congress wanted to censor Mortal Kombat and DOOM for their violence and gore, thinking that content might get into the hands of small children. Now over 25 years later, Sony is caving in to censorship, censoring all anime content because some kid out there is going to see a naked anime girl purely by coincidence.

 

There is no reason in this day and age in 2019 that censorship groups should even exist. They're run by prudes and highly religious Christian Conservatives who feel the need to scrub everything so that it's clean.

 

Unfortunately with the idiots running my country, nothing is going to change anytime soon.

[AJ_-_808]

1 hour ago, Spaz said:

...

Unfortunately with the idiots running my country, nothing is going to change anytime soon.

 

This times infinity.  The censoring is pointless given that anyone putting any real effort into seeing these things will find a way to in this day & age.  That said, there's still a fine line between a redesign and a censor.

 

Be grateful that it's been very minor changes that dont really affect anything I suppose, but I wouldnt expect this trend to disappear in the current social climate.

[ladynadiad]

What I personally find funny about all this is all these people coming out of the woodwork to care about Final Fantasy VIII and cry censorship.  Over two minor changes, one of which is a huge improvement.

 

Yet Edea and Ultmecia remain unchanged and they show far more cleavage than Rinoa.  If censorship was really going on, those two should have received a far more blatant redesign.

 

It's pretty clear here that what happened was someone decided to change up the design a bit.  Siren's actually is greatly improved upon and I think she looks better with the skirt.  The change for Rinoa is so minor that it's barely noticeable, but it seems to fit her character a bit better.  The only thing that is clear to me is that censorship isn't the cause for these changes because if that was happening there is no reason to leave Edea and Ultmecia alone.

 

And let's get real, a lot of you will gladly still hand SE your money for this game despite it.  Who cares that it's another blatant attempt to milk fans for their money for little effort.  I honestly think that is a far greater problem than any supposed censorship.

[AJ_Radio]

On 9/2/2019 at 9:10 AM, LucianaRosethorn said:

Nowadays everyone is a snowflake and we can't have fun but we really don't need a topic about it for every game, you either buy it or you don't.

 

Pretty much today's society in a nutshell.

[Lance_87]

This controversy is laughable at this point anyway, just look at the trolls yelling at each other in the Steam forums...

[Eraezr]

It's a lazy cash grab from Square Enix anyway. Almost everything they release now is that.

 

Only the character models look better than emulating it on Vita. Everything else is better off played on the original.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Eraezr

[starcrunch061]

On 9/10/2019 at 3:21 AM, ladynadiad said:

And let's get real, a lot of you will gladly still hand SE your money for this game despite it.  Who cares that it's another blatant attempt to milk fans for their money for little effort.  I honestly think that is a far greater problem than any supposed censorship.

 

Amen, sister.

[Brawler]

On 9/10/2019 at 4:21 AM, ladynadiad said:

And let's get real, a lot of you will gladly still hand SE your money for this game despite it.  Who cares that it's another blatant attempt to milk fans for their money for little effort.  I honestly think that is a far greater problem than any supposed censorship.

 

Respectfully disagree. When looking at a remaster I'm really just looking at two things, I want it to be a bit prettier and I want it on my current console. It seems this checks both boxes so as long as it works I'm cool with it. They don't need to reinvent the game like they are with FF7R every single time. I can't see how this is a big problem, honestly. Then again I say the same about the stuff people in these threads consider "censorship" too ?. 

[MyNameIs_Rainman]

2 minutes ago, Brawler said:

 

Respectfully disagree. When looking at a remaster I'm really just looking at two things, I want it to be a bit prettier and I want it on my current console. It seems this checks both boxes so as long as it works I'm cool with it. They don't need to reinvent the game like they are with FF7R every single time. I can't see how this is a big problem, honestly. Then again I say the same about the stuff people in these threads consider "censorship" too ?. 

 

That is what I was looking for as well. Remasters/ports/etc are all about convenience. Sure, I can go play on my ps1, but most people don't have their PS1 or PS2 or SNES hooked up ready to go.

Either we get a 100% port of the original and it's considered milking the fans, or we get revisions, remake and everyone goes batshit because things aren't original, censorship took place, etc. At the end of the day I personally can't be upset because I got a remaster of a game that I wasn't expecting to ever get, and they are rebuilding my favorite game from the ground up. I'm getting both. So, as a consumer and a fan, I'm happy and I will support with my wallet. 

Not every original game will be ported, and not every game will be remade or rebuilt the same way. The devs will ultimately do what they want with their IPs and I can either support it with my wallet or take my money elsewhere. At the end of the day thats all we can do.

[majob]

On 9/9/2019 at 9:15 PM, Spaz said:

 Unfortunately with the idiots running my country, nothing is going to change anytime soon.

The government had nothing to do with this. This is entirely the decision of the company. As far as the US goes, the only thing "illegal" in terms of content of fictional characters is only regarding to those underage and even that area is grey with no real hard statutes

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity

 

FCC guidelines only control content distributed through a public space or channel. There is no politician out there policing what you can consume for the most part. 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by majob

[AJ_Radio]

7 hours ago, MyNameIs_Rainman said:

 

That is what I was looking for as well. Remasters/ports/etc are all about convenience. Sure, I can go play on my ps1, but most people don't have their PS1 or PS2 or SNES hooked up ready to go.

Either we get a 100% port of the original and it's considered milking the fans, or we get revisions, remake and everyone goes batshit because things aren't original, censorship took place, etc. At the end of the day I personally can't be upset because I got a remaster of a game that I wasn't expecting to ever get, and they are rebuilding my favorite game from the ground up. I'm getting both. So, as a consumer and a fan, I'm happy and I will support with my wallet. 

Not every original game will be ported, and not every game will be remade or rebuilt the same way. The devs will ultimately do what they want with their IPs and I can either support it with my wallet or take my money elsewhere. At the end of the day thats all we can do.

 

Remakes are received well when done right. Look at Resident Evil and Resident Evil 2. 

 

I’ll just settle with the original Final Fantasy 7. 

 

You guys got enough Final Fantasy Games. Oh wait, this is censorship we’re talking about. 

 

2 hours ago, majob said:

The government had nothing to do with this. This is entirely the decision of the company. As far as the US goes, the only thing "illegal" in terms of content of fictional characters is only regarding to those underage and even that area is grey with no real hard statutes

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity

 

FCC guidelines only control content distributed through a public space or channel. There is no politician out there policing what you can consume for the most part. 

 

 

I wasn’t referring to the government. I was referring to soccer moms and anybody who feels this kind of censorship is necessary. 

 

The FCC is more concerned with Net Neutrality, which has been dead in the water for a long time now, and that Patai asshole who is basically a shill for them. 

[DaivRules]

52 minutes ago, Spaz said:

 

The FCC is more concerned with Net Neutrality, which has been dead in the water for a long time now, and that Patai asshole who is basically a shill for them. 

 

This seems to be getting more and more off topic as it goes on, but I felt compelled to respond to this assertion.

 

The current FCC head has explicitly said Net Neutrality is not needed and eliminated anything to do with it. I don’t know how that makes them more concerned with Net Neutrality than anything, let lone having any sort of concern about video game content and censorship. 

[MyNameIs_Rainman]

50 minutes ago, Spaz said:

 

Remakes are received well when done right. Look at Resident Evil and Resident Evil 2. 

 

I’ll just settle with the original Final Fantasy 7. 

 

You guys got enough Final Fantasy Games. Oh wait, this is censorship we’re talking about. 

 

 

I wasn’t referring to the government. I was referring to soccer moms and anybody who feels this kind of censorship is necessary. 

 

The FCC is more concerned with Net Neutrality, which has been dead in the water for a long time now, and that Patai asshole who is basically a shill for them. 

While nothing beats the original FFVII on PS1, my entertainment console is a cluster of cabling and not ideal, so I don't have everything hooked up. Same goes for all my consoles except PS3 and PS4. Eventually, when I get into a bigger space and have room for a little gaming room or something or the like then yeah I'd like to have them all hooked up and be able to game on any console the way it was intended to be. Till then, I don't mind ports. There aren't many ports or remakes that I've played that have given me an issue or a complaint to where I'd be bothered by it. 

[AJ_Radio]

21 minutes ago, MyNameIs_Rainman said:

While nothing beats the original FFVII on PS1, my entertainment console is a cluster of cabling and not ideal, so I don't have everything hooked up. Same goes for all my consoles except PS3 and PS4. Eventually, when I get into a bigger space and have room for a little gaming room or something or the like then yeah I'd like to have them all hooked up and be able to game on any console the way it was intended to be. Till then, I don't mind ports. There aren't many ports or remakes that I've played that have given me an issue or a complaint to where I'd be bothered by it. 

 

I don't bother with the old consoles. But I'm disappointed that so few PS2 games have made it to the PS4, considering the system can just power cycle through games that are over 12 years old.

 

On 9/9/2019 at 8:05 PM, AJ_-_808 said:

Be grateful that it's been very minor changes that dont really affect anything I suppose, but I wouldnt expect this trend to disappear in the current social climate.

 

We live in a society of snowflakes so not too surprising there.

 

21 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

This seems to be getting more and more off topic as it goes on, but I felt compelled to respond to this assertion.

 

The current FCC head has explicitly said Net Neutrality is not needed and eliminated anything to do with it. I don’t know how that makes them more concerned with Net Neutrality than anything, let lone having any sort of concern about video game content and censorship. 

 

I apologize for derailing this off topic.

 

I will make a quick note and say that was a very bad decision on FCC's part. That just gives the bigger guys more power and more money, like it has been the past decade.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Spaz

[Brawler]

4 hours ago, Spaz said:

I wasn’t referring to the government. I was referring to soccer moms and anybody who feels this kind of censorship is necessary. 

 

Yes, I'm sure the soccer moms are getting their attention and they're totally not doing it of their own volition. You love talking about snowflakes but you're the one having such a strong reaction to a minor redesign that you're screaming "censorship" when there is little to no proof that is the case. These are the kinds of things that make people scoff at the "censorship" squad. 

 

12 hours ago, MyNameIs_Rainman said:

 

That is what I was looking for as well. Remasters/ports/etc are all about convenience. Sure, I can go play on my ps1, but most people don't have their PS1 or PS2 or SNES hooked up ready to go.

Either we get a 100% port of the original and it's considered milking the fans, or we get revisions, remake and everyone goes batshit because things aren't original, censorship took place, etc. At the end of the day I personally can't be upset because I got a remaster of a game that I wasn't expecting to ever get, and they are rebuilding my favorite game from the ground up. I'm getting both. So, as a consumer and a fan, I'm happy and I will support with my wallet. 

Not every original game will be ported, and not every game will be remade or rebuilt the same way. The devs will ultimately do what they want with their IPs and I can either support it with my wallet or take my money elsewhere. At the end of the day thats all we can do.

 

Well said. That last bit especially. 

[AJ_Radio]

25 minutes ago, Brawler said:

Yes, I'm sure the soccer moms are getting their attention and they're totally not doing it of their own volition. You love talking about snowflakes but you're the one having such a strong reaction to a minor redesign that you're screaming "censorship" when there is little to no proof that is the case. These are the kinds of things that make people scoff at the "censorship" squad.

 

Don't get this twisted.

 

I can't prove about this "censorship" in Final Fantasy VIII since I never cared about the game to begin with. There's a fine line between censoring a couple things that may get a few people scoffing, and censoring a game to the point where everybody goes ape shit about it.

 

For me, in my own opinion, Sony should not be censoring these games from Japan regardless how much sexual innuendo is in them. The fact that they're doing it at all is ridiculous. I also think that had Sony gotten proper competition this generation they wouldn't be pulling this shit. But here we are. In 2019 and we're bitching about an old game that got a remaster that the fans wanted.

 

Minor redesigns were never my concern in this topic.

[TheLakota]

47 minutes ago, Spaz said:

For me, in my own opinion, Sony should not be censoring these games from Japan regardless how much sexual innuendo is in them. 

 

Is there any reason to assume Sony called the shot on the FF8 changes, and not SQ's ethics department? After all, the latter has been known to make such suggestions in the past. 

 

56 minutes ago, Spaz said:

I also think that had Sony gotten proper competition this generation they wouldn't be pulling this shit.

 

Hot take.