This game is terrible. [STRONG LANGUAGE]

[XXIIlII]

Your problem is playing this game now, should've played back on ps2 lol

[DrBloodmoney]

1 hour ago, Pottercito_ said:

This thread is about PoP and I read it for PoP but most of the comments were towards Jak

 

But whattt? Jak 2 is considered by the fanbase the most enjoyable? Just shoot me this does not make any sense to me. 

I agree with you - I thought Jak II was rancid.
 

It’s a fallacy to say “Jak II is considered by ‘the fanbase’ to be the most enjoyable”, because Jak II (and Jak 3) were basically completely different games in a completely different tone and genre to Jak and Daxter.
 

There are fans who think Jak and Daxter is superior,  and there are fans who (wrongly ?) think Jak II (or Jak 3) is superior, but they are such wildly different styles of games, that really, those are two different fanbases, not a minority or majority of the same one.

 

Oh, and, on Topic - The Sands of Time is great. - dated, but great.

 

Loads of game - especially older, pre-trophy games - suffer a little for the retro-fitting of trophy lists, particularly those retrofitted in this era, where trophy lists were still of wildly varying quality, but it doesn’t change the fact that The Sands of Time was - and remains - an excellent 3D platformer.

 

A trophy list - frustrating or not - doesn’t change that.

Edited November 2, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[Zephrese]

36 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

It’s a fallacy to say “Jak II is considered by ‘the fanbase’ to be the most enjoyable”, because Jak II (and Jak 3) were basically completely different games in a completely different tone and genre to Jak and Daxter.
 

There are fans who think Jak and Daxter is superior,  and there are fans who (wrongly ?) think Jak II (or Jak 3) is superior, but they are such wildly different styles of games, that really, those are two different fanbases, not a minority or majority of the same one.

 

Big disagree. Jak II and Jak 3 are still platformers to an extent despite the GTA-esque approach to the overworld, and still generally share the same overall fanbase.

 

If anything it's a fallacy to try and claim that there are two fanbases just because of the differences between the first and later games, when more people like them all.

There are far more people that like two or all three of the main Jak games than there are that only like one of them from what I've seen, be it the first or otherwise.

The first one, while good, doesn't really stand out to me that much compared to other games I've played. (It was still basically the Super Mario 64 of its time, though)

II's story was great, but the game was overly frustrating at times. 3's gameplay was the most entertaining and challenging, without being frustrating like II was.

 

I can certainly understand why some people don't like the change from the first game to the second, but that comes down to a matter of taste rather than good vs. bad.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Zephrese

[Pottercito_]

9 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

I agree with you - I thought Jak II was rancid.
 

It’s a fallacy to say “Jak II is considered by ‘the fanbase’ to be the most enjoyable”, because Jak II (and Jak 3) were basically completely different games in a completely different tone and genre to Jak and Daxter.
 

There are fans who think Jak and Daxter is superior,  and there are fans who (wrongly ?) think Jak II (or Jak 3) is superior, but they are such wildly different styles of games, that really, those are two different fanbases, not a minority or majority of the same one.

 

Oh, and, on Topic - The Sands of Time is great. - dated, but great.

 

Loads of game - especially older, pre-trophy games - suffer a little for the retro-fitting of trophy lists, particularly those retrofitted in this era, where trophy lists were still of wildly varying quality, but it doesn’t change the fact that The Sands of Time was - and remains - an excellent 3D platformer.

 

A trophy list - frustrating or not - doesn’t change that.

Even if you compare Jak 2 with Jak 3, I highly doubt the fanbase would rather prefer Jak 2 instead of Jak 3. Jak 2 was just a good cartoon-GTA/thrid person shooter platform game but with its faults. Jak 3 was just completely better, more fun and easier in terms of "no having artificial difficulty as Jak 2 had".

Edited November 2, 2021 by Pottercito_

[Zephrese]

28 minutes ago, Pottercito_ said:

Even if you compare Jak 2 with Jak 3, I highly doubt the fanbase would rather prefer Jak 3 instead of Jak 2. Jak 2 was just a good cartoon-GTA/thrid person shooter platform game but with its faults. Jak 3 was just completely better, more fun and easier in terms of "no having artificial difficulty as Jak 2 had".

 

The only thing Jak II has over 3 is its story, imo. I still like the game, but there's a ton of frustrating elements about its gameplay design and missions.
(Nothing a remake couldn't fix, of course, but that's a different discussion entirely)

 

Jak 3's gameplay was more fun primarily because of the multiple gun types, plus it was still challenging albeit in a much more fair and less BS way than Jak II. lol

Edited November 2, 2021 by Zephrese

[DrBloodmoney]

2 minutes ago, Zephrese said:

Big disagree. There are far more people that like two or all three of the main Jak games then there are that only like one of them, be it the first or otherwise.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm sure there are, but I still think the wild divergence in genre and tone between Jak and Daxter and Jak II means there are two seperate fanbases - there just happens to be crossover and cross-pollenation between those distinct fanbases.

 

For example, I'd say a relative majority of this site's users like Uncharted 2, and like GTA V, but obviously that can't be called "the majority of a fanbase" - it's two separate fanbases, that happen to have a lot of crossover.

Because Jak II and Jak 3 are such different styles of game from the original Jak and Daxter, I'd say they are actually closer to that example than most single fanbases for other game franchises where the games are of varying quality, but still uniformly of a similar tone and genre, if that makes sense?

 

 

 

[Zephrese]

2 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm sure there are, but I still think the wild divergence in genre and tone between Jak and Daxter and Jak II means there are two seperate fanbases - there just happens to be crossover and cross-pollenation between those distinct fanbases.

 

For example, I'd say a relative majority of this site's users like Uncharted 2, and like GTA V, but obviously that can't be called "the majority of a fanbase" - it's two separate fanbases, that happen to have a lot of crossover.

Because Jak II and Jak 3 are such different styles of game from the original Jak and Daxter, I'd say they are actually closer to that example than most single fanbases for other game franchises where the games are of varying quality, but still uniformly of a similar tone and genre, if that makes sense?

 

Ah, that makes more sense.

I feel you could still argue that there is a general/"main" Jak fanbase, and then specific ones for the first game vs. the later two. I understand what you're getting at, though.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Zephrese

[MRR---OFFICIAL]

On 09/11/2019 at 5:12 AM, HarasserPL said:

I'm not saying that Jak 2 copied R&C formula. I'm 99% sure that they DID change some things because R&C was such a major hit. 2 years in development back then was quite a long stretch of time. Even now games are made in the same time span. Lots of stuff can be changed or re-written. They dropped great adventure formula from Jak and Daxter, and went the same way as R&C into the third-person shooter and the result wasn't very good. 

No they changed the Direction of Jak because of their Audience growing up (becoming edgy teens lol) and the success and adoration of Grand Theft Auto 3, Ratchet had nothing to do with it in that case... Though that being said Naughty Dog and Insomniac Games always worked closely together ( I believe their studios were basically across the hall from each other, at least back in the Crash/Spyro days they were) and they shared a bunch of Tech with each other (basically the same Custom Engine made by BOTH ran Jak/Ratchet throughout that generation)

Edited November 2, 2021 by MRR---OFFICIAL

[Zephrese]

19 minutes ago, MRR---OFFICIAL said:

No they changed the Direction of Jak because of their Audience growing up (becoming edgy teens lol) and the success and adoration of Grand Theft Auto 3, Ratchet had nothing to do with it I'm that case... Though that being said Naughty Dog and Insomniac Games always worked closely together ( I believe their studios were basically across the hall from each other, at least back in the Crash/Spyro days they were) and they shared a bunch of Tech with each other (basically the same Custom Engine made by BOTH ran Jak/Ratchet throughout that generation)

 

I could see Jak II's change in direction from the first game having been influenced by Ratchet & Clank to an extent.

Like you said, however, it was mostly due to the success of GTA at the time.

 

Doesn't mean that the result "wasn't very good" just because some people didn't like it and place more worth into their subjective opinions than is deserved.

(Especially because this opinion isn't shared by the majority of people who've played more than just one of the games)

It's aged a bit for sure due to being a product of its time in a way, but it also stands out from other platformers quite a bit too.

 

I find it ironic that we're comparing it to R&C purely because of the shared third-person shooter element when they handle it so differently from one another.

(They are radically different otherwise in terms of gameplay in general, really)

Edited November 2, 2021 by Zephrese

[HaserPL]

16 hours ago, MRR---OFFICIAL said:

No they changed the Direction of Jak because of their Audience growing up (becoming edgy teens lol) and the success and adoration of Grand Theft Auto 3, Ratchet had nothing to do with it in that case... Though that being said Naughty Dog and Insomniac Games always worked closely together ( I believe their studios were basically across the hall from each other, at least back in the Crash/Spyro days they were) and they shared a bunch of Tech with each other (basically the same Custom Engine made by BOTH ran Jak/Ratchet throughout that generation)

The problem is, the devs of jak 2 have said themselves that R&C was an inspiration for them.

[EcoShifter]

On 11/2/2021 at 1:41 AM, Pottercito_ said:

But whattt? Jak 2 is considered by the fanbase the most enjoyable? Just shoot me this does not make any sense to me. 

 

Yes, the fanbase. . . does indeed (often at the very least) consider Jak II to be the best in the series (your shocking reaction is something I had already experienced and accepted many years ago), and in addition to that making plenty of sense I'd probably have to agree, even though Jak 3 is my favorite in the trilogy.

 

And there is nothing "wrong" for people thinking the sequels are better. Saying or thinking that in itself is just narrowminded and ignorant (especially when the claim is made from anyone who has only played 1/3 or 2/3 of the trilogy).

 

With the Prince of Persia thing, as with other overlooked series that took a similar path that JII did in its series (like SuperSaiyan3985 said), PoP is one of them too. A lot of Youtubers (especially popular ones) that reviewed either game have even (frequently) done comparisons between them and other platformers when discussing it. 

 

On 11/2/2021 at 2:59 AM, Pottercito_ said:

Even if you compare Jak 2 with Jak 3, I highly doubt the fanbase would rather prefer Jak 2 instead of Jak 3. Jak 2 was just a good cartoon-GTA/thrid person shooter platform game but with its faults. Jak 3 was just completely better, more fun and easier in terms of "no having artificial difficulty as Jak 2 had".

 

J3 has (its merits but also) enough disappointing aspects (of which were heavily attributed to a rushed development) to argue JII as the better game. JII is most definitely not a "cartoon GTA"; that's an outdated argument and poor observation of the game design. There's influenced by and there's the copycat; JII is the former, and a lot of TPL's DNA remains intact in the game(s).

 

On 11/2/2021 at 2:57 AM, Zephrese said:

 

Big disagree. Jak II and Jak 3 are still platformers to an extent despite the GTA-esque approach to the overworld, and still generally share the same overall fanbase.

 

If anything it's a fallacy to try and claim that there are two fanbases just because of the differences between the first and later games, when more people like them all.

 

There are far more people that like two or all three of the main Jak games than there are that only like one of them from what I've seen, be it the first or otherwise.

The first one, while good, doesn't really stand out to me that much compared to other games I've played. (It was still basically the Super Mario 64 of its time, though) II's story was great, but the game was overly frustrating at times. 3's gameplay was the most entertaining and challenging, without being frustrating like II was.

 

I can certainly understand why some people don't like the change from the first game to the second, but that comes down to a matter of taste rather than good vs. bad.

 

There is a lot of actual credibility to this post, with that small minor portion being all I disagree with (of which I'd just slightly change some of the wording). 

 

With your last line, it's a pity how literal few acknowledge how great the transition actually was handled. Could have been better, yes, but what they did and at that time was really impressive and still is. Every once in a while you'll see some intelligent fellow bother to give a detailed explanation of why.

Edited November 3, 2021 by EcoShifter

[Zephrese]

@EcoShifter Great points all-round.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Zephrese

[UnOc2]

This thread has made my heart sink. 

[Asher1985]

On 11/7/2019 at 7:46 AM, Copanele said:

You know what might be another problem if I might add? Playing Sands of Time with the trophy intent.

You know how old games had huge personality and no trophies? I think that's the idea behind PoP franchise too, and why opinion may vary according to the trophy list. Because the trophy list was shoved almost brutally into this game .

Picture it like this : You start the game, you know nothing, what is going on? Wow I run on walls, I can rewind time, I can try and beat those sorry ass enemies, see what I miss, what visions actually mean. You have no constraints, no rules other than the game's boundaries, you aren't stressed by anything. You just...play the game.

vs

You see the trophy list, you KNOW you can't rewind more than 20 times, you feel constraints, enemies start to be more annoying than ever, you get pissed by every single detail and feel like throwing the game into the bin. Starting with the trophy list in mind DOES affect the experience in PoP case. 

To draw a parallel for who knows, playing Baldur's Gate on Legacy of Bhaal the first time just to get the trophy list completed...yeah best of luck with that. It's both an incredibly difficult chore (game is old, only a specific build works ) and the atmosphere is lost. Not trying to change the topic, it's a comparison. I believe that's Prince of Persia's case as well, although it might be only me, but that's the trend I noticed and why trophies might kill a game's atmosphere depending on approach.

Exactly. The worst kind of trophies are the kind that go against the design of the game. Not using a wheelchair in Munch's Oddysee, not using powers in Dishonored, and I'm sure there are other examples.