Cloudbahamut

SPOILERS : Just beat the game and have so many questions. Let's unravel this thing together

65 posts in this topic

i think whatever you have up are considered spoilers and you must started first SPOILER AHEAD so reader are warned .. so i am requesting the admin to close and remove this for good

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I posted a similar thread a few days ago regarding the final part of the game, lol, but yeah just edit your post and put

 

[ spoiler ]

 

right at the top

 

and

 

[ /spoiler ]

 

right at the end of your post

 

 

of course without the spaces between the brackets.

 

Will take you like 20 seconds, or I guess the post you just created will likely get deleted.

Edited by enaysoft
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2 hours ago, ShadowReplicant said:

Overall, I'm disappointed with the way they decided to handle the story. All the new story elements (Whispers, Fate...) are prime examples of sloppy writing. I'm not against them making changes, but this whole meta-narrative is just stupid. If you want to change things, just change them. Don't pretend like you're giving fans exactly what they wanted and then at the very end tell them to go fuck themselves. The fact that a lot of people seem to like the new ending and aren't even questioning any of this cryptic bullshit tells me, that they're simply not interested in good storytelling and just want to see people throw buildings at each other. I'm going to buy the Ultimania that comes out later this month and I hope it sheds more light on WTF all this means.


Honestly, the original wasn't the pinnacle of writing either and in general games still rarely deliver on the narrative side. That said, people really do not pay attention to details and mostly go with the flow. Yakuza is a series that's a prime example of this - gameplay conflicts what's happening and sometimes the cutscenes conflict what's said. Small holes in cutscenes themselves and stupid things happen just to move the plot along... and nowadays they're just unquestionably praised as stories. More or less anyway.

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29 minutes ago, Herbalistiikka said:

Honestly, the original wasn't the pinnacle of writing either and in general games still rarely deliver on the narrative side. That said, people really do not pay attention to details and mostly go with the flow. Yakuza is a series that's a prime example of this - gameplay conflicts what's happening and sometimes the cutscenes conflict what's said. Small holes in cutscenes themselves and stupid things happen just to move the plot along... and nowadays they're just unquestionably praised as stories. More or less anyway.

 

Sure, I'm not saying it's a flawless masterpiece of storytelling, but at the very least it's a story that has stood the test of time. FF VII has always been one of the more grounded Final Fantasies, with relatively simple, relatable themes. There are a lot of supernatural elements, but they work in the context of the world. Fate and alternate realities on the other hand, they tend to... complicate things, to put it mildly. And the writers at Square Enix are obsessed with that shit. The ending comes dangerously close to Final Fantasy XIII and Kingdom Hearts territory, and I just pray they don't go further down that rabbit hole.

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31 minutes ago, ShadowReplicant said:

 

Sure, I'm not saying it's a flawless masterpiece of storytelling, but at the very least it's a story that has stood the test of time. FF VII has always been one of the more grounded Final Fantasies, with relatively simple, relatable themes. There are a lot of supernatural elements, but they work in the context of the world. Fate and alternate realities on the other hand, they tend to... complicate things, to put it mildly. And the writers at Square Enix are obsessed with that shit. The ending comes dangerously close to Final Fantasy XIII and Kingdom Hearts territory, and I just pray they don't go further down that rabbit hole.

 

At this point I'd just take the ending of Remake as "this is its own thing now and not the exact same story told twice" and stop thinking about alternate realities and stuff. Unless of course they delve more into that stuff in the next game and beyond. It's probably more fitting to try and make it its own thing (bit more leeway as to how the game progresses? Yuffie and Vincent will be more included at least) while still recreating iconic moments.

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Most of it, I loved. I was even down with the first confrontation with Sephiroth at the end there, felt really epic at the very least.

 

But those Whispers ... I have no idea how to feel about those. Granted, we don't have the full story available yet, so I hope it'll make some sense in the end. Because this story doesn't need to get convoluted by adding beings of Destiny who are there to ensure that things stay exactly the same, although they seem to be hinting that the party will be defying fate itself in the rest of the remake entries, etcetera. See where I'm going with this?

 

Most of the remake was incredible. The Whispers can go fuck themselves for now, however.

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Oh my I love Zack and everything, but seeing Zack storyline going this way I'm confused and scared. Messing with time and timelines never work in my opinion, and I'm afraid this will be another KH Dream Drop Distance (which was horrible imo). I was hoping for a Zack DLC or something with Crisis Cire vibes at most, but this feels just fan service. 

 

Overall the game was fun to play and beautiful, but we'll see where the story goes.

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14 hours ago, cometowner said:

i think whatever you have up are considered spoilers and you must started first SPOILER AHEAD so reader are warned .. so i am requesting the admin to close and remove this for good

 

Says spoilers in title, clicks anyways, gets mad cause there's spoilers 🤣

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Yeah I also felt that the Whispers and the characters defying fate to free themselves from outside constraints was very much like FF XIII (Probably no surprise that the trio that made that game - Nomura, Kitase and Toriyama - also made VII Remake). And ironically you could take all that Whisper stuff out of the game and go straight from the Highway chase to the fight against Sephiroth and then have the characters leave Midgar at the end like they do and it would work perfectly.

The Whisper stuff also complicates things and raises so many logic questions that were unnecessary. Like if Sephiroth knows what happens in the original timeline why didn't he already try to change it in the original game ? Why has he this information now but didn't in the original timeline ? Some speculate it is because that the Sephiroth in Remake is from the future (Advent Children) but if that is future Sephiroth then where is the original Sephiroth at the same time ? Wouldn't that mean that there are TWO Sephiroths being around now ? Same with Aerith. People say she is from the future too but how can future Aerith take over present day Aeriths body ? She was never able to do something like this before and there is no precedent or basis for such a power. Not to mention that turning FF VII into another time travel mess is something I really refuse to accept. And Aerith only seems to know some things but not everything from the future which she would if she really were future Aerith.

I like the concept of Sephiroths knowledge of the future resulting in some changes (basically everything that was not in the original), explaining why Remake differs in some things but still following the same main story and recreating all of the story moments from the original. In the end everything from the original Midgar storyline was in the Remake and most of it was very faithful to the original with only small changes and expanding some things. It was a perfect balance and I like the concept of explaining in-universe why these changes occured. But they really should have left it at that without bringing in Fate, Whispers and changing timelines.
 

11 hours ago, ShadowReplicant said:

 

My guess is that they are being tricked by Sephiroth, who isn't powerful enough to defeat Fate by himself? Maybe? They've only seen glimpses of the future, like meteor hitting the planet, so they probably think they failed and the planet is doomed. This of course raises the question of how much does Aerith know about the future. Because if she already knows that she needs to die to save the planet, why would she want to change it? Maybe she's aware of the events in Advent Children and knows that Sephiroth will keep coming back. Maybe she wants a chance to find another way to stop him completely this time. Who knows, it's a complete clusterfuck.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure the Sephiroth we see in the remake are the two copies (49 and 2). The first copy (49) takes Jenova and is defeated after he stabs Barret, at which point the other copy (2) comes in. He's the one we see jump from the rooftop and I'd say that's the Sephiroth we fight at the end. There's no way we're fighting the real Sephiroth, he's way too powerful for the party at that point. Here's where I'm confused though: Is it only Cloud that sees Sephiroth (instead of a robed figure that vaguely looks like Sephiroth), or can the others (the party and Palmer) see him too?

 

 

The way I see it, the whole Zack thing is just fan service. People wanted to see him survive and SE gave them that moment. I think it's pretty clear that Zack survives in an alternate timeline. He's still dead in the Remake timeline, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Overall, I'm disappointed with the way they decided to handle the story. All the new story elements (Whispers, Fate...) are prime examples of sloppy writing. I'm not against them making changes, but this whole meta-narrative is just stupid. If you want to change things, just change them. Don't pretend like you're giving fans exactly what they wanted and then at the very end tell them to go fuck themselves. The fact that a lot of people seem to like the new ending and aren't even questioning any of this cryptic bullshit tells me, that they're simply not interested in good storytelling and just want to see people throw buildings at each other. I'm going to buy the Ultimania that comes out later this month and I hope it sheds more light on WTF all this means.


Thanks, that helped me a great deal understanding some things more even though I do still not believe that the Zack thing is an alternate timeline but rather the result of an altered original timeline. But what you said about the clones makes a lot of sense.

I have also been wondering exactly what JENOVA Dreamwaver was. Red said she was an illusion while I had the impression that she was a part of JENOVA's body commanded by Sephiroth to attack the characters (like he did with JENOVA Life and Death in the original).

I was really hoping that there would be an Ultimania guide for this game so I really hope that this will give us official confirmation on some things and end some of the theories.

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The game should have ended at Chapter 17 where they should have squeezed in the highway boss and deleted the entirety of Chapter 18. What's wrong with ending the game with the party standing at the end of the highway, looking over the horizon wondering what this new world has in store for them? If they felt like the highway boss wouldn't be a satisfying final boss then they should have made it so it was, instead of just putting it as a lame mini boss in the mini game. 

 

It also felt like this whole story beat with the whispers was done to implement or give way for fan service with the final battle with Sephiroth. I mean it was an awesome fight but uh, why the hell are we fighting him THIS EARLY?? Just look at the final sequence at the Edge of Creation that tries to imitate that 1v1 showdown with Sephiroth in the end and tell me that isn't fan service. Fighting Jenova Dreamweaver at Shinra HQ on the other hand made sense and I thought that was a great addition. When I actually realised we were gonna go ahead and change destiny by entering that portal in Chapter 18, I almost felt unenthusiastic about going ahead with the chapter or rather, felt like I just wanted to get it over and done with to finish this game. Liked the remake in general mainly due to the combat but the reboot aspect as well as technical issues like low res textures and lip syncing issues outside of cutscenes completely prevent myself from looking at this game as a 10/10.

Edited by PostGameBlues
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15 hours ago, Nitemares----- said:

 

Says spoilers in title, clicks anyways, gets mad cause there's spoilers 🤣

it was added later to titles 🤣

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The finale was epic in terms of gameplay but utterly bamboozling from a narrative perspective.

I hope they gauge the fan reaction and not go off the rails completely in future installments. I'm totally open to seeing some story changes but I also fear that changing too much will just be bad. 

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Square will only go back to make good games when Nomura retires. Seriously that guy is a broken record about fate and time lines and stuff, every single game that he makes is the same shit with different characters. Wait and see how FF7 becomes Final Kingdom Fantasy Hearts, just give him a couple more games.

 

I believe Jim Sterling said in one of his vídeos that all the whisperes did was pretty much Nomura finding a "lore friendly" way to give himself a blank card to do whatever he wants with the FF7 history.

 

There is already inconsistency with the whisperes themselves. If they are the guardians of fate and try to maintein everything as it was supposed to happen, they killed Wedge and saved Barret then why is Biggs still alive? The whisperes were there when the pillar was destroyed why they didnt make sure Biggs died? Nomura being Nomura and I should stop trying to take this Remake seriously Im so pissed that they are messing everything up. It was a good story they dont need to change it.

Edited by Montyzu
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You know when I think about the plot of the new remake everytime, I kinda laugh at how much Square Enix basically trolled alot of new players being like we designed this game to be new player friendly too.

 

But then it requires playing through Three previous games (one of which never released in the West) and a couple watching/reading material just to process what's going on in the whole story to still be only left with huge holes that may or may not get filled in the next "episodes".

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54 minutes ago, Montyzu said:

Square will only go back to make good games when Nomura retires. Seriously that guy is a broken record about fate and time lines and stuff, every single game that he makes is the 

 

There is already inconsistency with the whisperes themselves. If they are the guardians of fate and try to maintein everything as it was supposed to happen, they killed Wedge and saved Barret then why is Biggs still alive? The whisperes were there when the pillar was destroyed why they didnt make sure Biggs died? Nomura being Nomura and I should stop trying to take this Remake seriously Im so pissed that they are messing everything up. It was a good story they dont need to change it.

I think by killing the Harbinger it means that all bets are off on who lives and dies. Biggs survives because the fates were not there to kill him.

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1 hour ago, Montyzu said:

Square will only go back to make good games when Nomura retires. Seriously that guy is a broken record about fate and time lines and stuff, every single game that he makes is the same shit with different characters. Wait and see how FF7 becomes Final Kingdom Fantasy Hearts, just give him a couple more games.

 

I believe Jim Sterling said in one of his vídeos that all the whisperes did was pretty much Nomura finding a "lore friendly" way to give himself a blank card to do whatever he wants with the FF7 history.

 

There is already inconsistency with the whisperes themselves. If they are the guardians of fate and try to maintein everything as it was supposed to happen, they killed Wedge and saved Barret then why is Biggs still alive? The whisperes were there when the pillar was destroyed why they didnt make sure Biggs died? Nomura being Nomura and I should stop trying to take this Remake seriously Im so pissed that they are messing everything up. It was a good story they dont need to change it.


Biggs survives because the Whispers no longer exist in this timeline. Exactly why and how will be revealed in the next games. He definitely died in the Pillar but somehow killing the Whispers undid this. Not sure why it also did not undo Wedges death or Barrets resurrection. Maybe removing the Whispers caused some ripple effects that led to some changes in the timeline instead of undoing things they did.

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52 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:


Biggs survives because the Whispers no longer exist in this timeline. Exactly why and how will be revealed in the next games. He definitely died in the Pillar but somehow killing the Whispers undid this. Not sure why it also did not undo Wedges death or Barrets resurrection. Maybe removing the Whispers caused some ripple effects that led to some changes in the timeline instead of undoing things they did.

 

Don't give Nomura too much credit, you're basically going farther than he even have done. He doesn't have explanation for any of that, it's just fanservice weaving the narrative, so it'll be full of holes if he indeed goes that way which I hope he doesn't.

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1 hour ago, Cloudbahamut said:


Biggs survives because the Whispers no longer exist in this timeline. Exactly why and how will be revealed in the next games. He definitely died in the Pillar but somehow killing the Whispers undid this. Not sure why it also did not undo Wedges death or Barrets resurrection. Maybe removing the Whispers caused some ripple effects that led to some changes in the timeline instead of undoing things they did.

 

Zack saves him.

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2 hours ago, Cloudbahamut said:


Biggs survives because the Whispers no longer exist in this timeline. Exactly why and how will be revealed in the next games. He definitely died in the Pillar but somehow killing the Whispers undid this. Not sure why it also did not undo Wedges death or Barrets resurrection. Maybe removing the Whispers caused some ripple effects that led to some changes in the timeline instead of undoing things they did.

 

And Jesse? Man I am telling you this Remake is going to get "better and better".

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I know everyone is annoyed, but for me, it was great to see the injustice of Zack dying become undone. The only real reason he was originally killed off was for the twist in Cloud's story. It never made sense that a natural first class Soldier with Zenova cells was killed by Shinra grunts (as evident by SE adding more and more of them each time they remade the scene). I would love to see him as a party member in the next game.

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I have the same feelings as most people here. Loved the game up untill the final chapter. Honestly it didn't even feel like FF7 anymore when fighting the whispers in constant well over the top scenes. What justified the parties excuse for doing this when it was clearly what Sephiroth wanted? Makes no sense.

 

They were clearly just trying to find an excuse to change the storyline of the game which I have very mixed feelings about - the storyline will be different for everyone in the next game which will make it a new experience but they might fuck it up. Let's just hope that the changing destiny, whispers bullshit is over with.

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