SPOILERS : Just beat the game and have so many questions. Let's unravel this thing together

[XileLerinril]

 

7 hours ago, Montyzu said:

 

And Jesse? Man I am telling you this Remake is going to get "better and better".

Same thing. Presumably Zack is there when the battle for the Pillar takes place. He is strong enough that he alone should turn the tide in favor of Avalanche. 

 

9 hours ago, Edo_Oni said:

 

Don't give Nomura too much credit, you're basically going farther than he even have done. He doesn't have explanation for any of that, it's just fanservice weaving the narrative, so it'll be full of holes if he indeed goes that way which I hope he doesn't.

That is a really reductive stance to take considering that one: Nomura is not the writer for this game Kazushige Nojima is, and two: its not like its is a hard conclusion to draw. Either we have a dual timeline, or the timeline is reshaping itself to reflect the events of a game that had Zack there to help. Dismissing it in its entirety because you refuse to even consider an option other then hating on Nomura just makes you look ignorant. 

22 minutes ago, ChaosDivider said:

I have the same feelings as most people here. Loved the game up untill the final chapter. Honestly it didn't even feel like FF7 anymore when fighting the whispers in constant well over the top scenes. What justified the parties excuse for doing this when it was clearly what Sephiroth wanted? Makes no sense.

 

They were clearly just trying to find an excuse to change the storyline of the game which I have very mixed feelings about - the storyline will be different for everyone in the next game which will make it a new experience but they might fuck it up. Let's just hope that the changing destiny, whispers bullshit is over with.

The reason they are trying to change fate is because they are under the assumption that the original games story is the bad ending. They see Aerith's death, Meteor in the sky, a destroyed midgar, and Aeriths burial site in the lake, all out of context and all sent to them by Sephiroth. Sephiroth knows what happened in the OG game, and he also knows that Fate is going to force him to loose, so he tricks Cloud and company into fighting fate for him. He cant do it, fate will delete him from the timeline if he takes it on in an open confrontation, but fate cant kill Cloud and company, it needs them to stop Sephiroth, so fate has to fight them with kids gloves on. Once you kill fate Sephiroth is completely free to do what he wants, no longer bound to loose. You 100 percent play into his scheme and at the end of this game he has accomplished what he wanted. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by XileLerinril

[bobbygo20]

So the idea is correct, the whispers show up to ensure everything goes according to the oroginal ff7 game, eg. the first time Cloud and Aerith meet, they’re going on chatting for too long and she needs to be gone by the time Shinra grunts show up and in chapter 4 Cloud and Tifa aren’t going on the reactor 5 mission until the whispers ‘injure’ Jesse and Wedge. The reason Sepiroth has you fight the harbringer of destiny is because he’s aware of the original ff7 timeline and in order to succeed he needs destiny not to run it’s course. The three sub bosses in the fight are holding a sword, a gun and their own fists to prevent destiny from being destroyed (so theoretically, Cloud, Barret and Tifa from the future, fighting for their own reality to bee preserved across all timelines). My take from the ending scene where Aerith sees Zack and Cloud walking to Midgar is that’s a separate timeline, she gets a glimpse of Zack surviving since Destiny’s been broken across all timelines, and that has nothing to do with the REMAKE timeline, maybe just a way to show fans the new dev team is fully aware of the Zack situation and a way to build Aerith’s character even though newcomers won’t know about their story. That’s my interpretation of what happened and maybe you can agree with it if it makes sense!

[Cloudbahamut]

16 hours ago, Montyzu said:

 

And Jesse? Man I am telling you this Remake is going to get "better and better".

Well Jessie is definitely dead. She literally died right in front of Cloud and Tifa. And the Whispers were not anywhere near that. And her death was a very important scene particularly with the buildup towards it. Biggs never clearly died onscreen. if you rewatch the scene with Biggs he was never clearly killed like Jessie was. He just sat there and stopped moving. He could have easily just lost his consciousness. When Barret later asked Cloud about it, Cloud never told him Biggs had died, only that he had been in "pretty bad shape". I am guessing that the Whispers would have waited to see wether Biggs would recover or not and if he did they would kill him to correct things like they apparently killed Wedge (Though the screen going black during that moment is very suspicious, even he could still be alive now).
 

The point is that the Whispers would have eventually made sure that Biggs, Jessie and Wedge would have died but now that they no longer exist they can't ensure that. So while Jessie definitely died and Wedge most likely died as well, Biggs survived as he probably was still alive when he was in the Pillar and the Whispers are no longer there to kill him.

Now how the hell Biggs got out of the Pillar and to Sector 5 before the whole Plate came down is the much bigger question. Maybe the work of the other Avalanche cells (who were suspiciously absent from the Pillar battle) ?
 

But those are not things I got a problem with. It is the last chapter that confuses the hell out of me. Things that happen there, things that Sephiroth says just make no sense no matter how often I watch it. It's just so weird.

Like how is Sephiroth able to open a portal to the Whisper realm ? Why does he say that he wants to "protect the Planet" ? What does he mean when he says that the Planet will one day become part of the Edge of Creation but he and Cloud will never end ?
 

Why does Sephiroth suddenly control the Whispers (when they surround the party at his command) ? Was it the real Midgar that Sephiroth hit with Supernova or was this another illusion conjured up by him in thr Whisper realm ? Why was there a burst of light from Midgar when Zack defeated the soldiers when that is supposed to take place 5 years earlier ? None of this makes any fucking sense and it frustrates the hell out of me.

 

[ChaosDivider]

We won't know the answers for another 3 years or so until part 2 comes out. Such confusing and over the top storytelling just doesn't belong in FF7 IMO. The OG was never really over the top compared to other FF games but it is now, they should have just left it well alone.

 

They really are going to change a lot of the story in part 2, the Aerith death scene will change i'm calling it now.

[Cloudbahamut]

48 minutes ago, ChaosDivider said:

We won't know the answers for another 3 years or so until part 2 comes out. Such confusing and over the top storytelling just doesn't belong in FF7 IMO.

Obviously the writer of the original FF VII disagrees since he also wrote the Remake.

I always find it weird how people who dislike a movie or game ALWAYS blame the director but never the writer. Nomura did not write this game, he directed it. You wanna blame someone for the writing blame Nojima - you know the guy who wrote pretty much everything in the FF VII universe and has been a Final Fantasy writer for nearly 25 years.....

Ironically the last FF game that Nojima wrote before the VII Remake was in fact Crisis Core. He contributed some concepts to XIII and the original plot treatment for XV (then called Versus XIII. Habata later changed a lot of it when it became XV) but Crisis Core was the last FF game Nojima had actively written. He also wrote Advent Children as well as several Kingdom Hearts games so the KH influence in the Remake should not be that surprising given that KH's two most influential creatives (Nomura and Nojima) did the VII Remake.

Nomura, Nojima and Kitase have definitely made one of the strongest and most profilic creative teams in the last 25 years in video games. These three have basically defined Final Fantasy for me (since I became a FF fan in 1999 with VII and VIII and FF X has been my most favorite game for the last 18 years) and when I think of the series I think of their games and designs. I would never be a FF fan without them and despite not loving everything they do without question I would never ever disrespect them. I owe them too much for that.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Cloudbahamut

[ChaosDivider]

30 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

Obviously the writer of the original FF VII disagrees since he also wrote the Remake.

I always find it weird how people who dislike a movie or game ALWAYS blame the director but never the writer. Nomura did not write this game, he directed it. You wanna blame someone for the writing blame Nojima - you know the guy who wrote pretty much everything in the FF VII universe and has been a Final Fantasy writer for nearly 25 years.....

I didn't blame the writer or director just stating that I don't like what the direction they are going with it, many long time fans feel the same. The fact is we don't know where they are going with this and I am just sceptical. They might nail it in part 2 but I honestly haven't liked much that Square have done in the last decade or so which means I will go into it with low expectations. The reason I was so excited for this was I thought it would be impossible for them to mess up the great story that FF7 has, now I'm not so sure.

 

And also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Sakaguchi play a huge part in making the original who left Square soon after FF10? I was always under the assumption that he was the main creator behind the older FF games.

Edited April 19, 2020 by ChaosDivider

[Cloudbahamut]

44 minutes ago, ChaosDivider said:

I didn't blame the writer or director just stating that I don't like what the direction they are going with it, many long time fans feel the same. The fact is we don't know where they are going with this and I am just sceptical. They might nail it in part 2 but I honestly haven't liked much that Square have done in the last decade or so which means I will go into it with low expectations. The reason I was so excited for this was I thought it would be impossible for them to mess up the great story that FF7 has, now I'm not so sure.

 

And also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Sakaguchi play a huge part in making the original who left Square soon after FF10?

Yeah but you also said "This does not belong in a FF VII game" and obviously the original writer of FF VII should definitely know what belongs in FF VII seeing as he actually wrote it.

Sakaguchi contributed to the original story, coming up with the premise and plot outline (much like Nojima did with XV) but the actual game was written by Kitase (who also directed the original) and Nojima. Sakaguchi was producer in pretty much the same role that Kitase now had with the Remake.

But I think the original writer of FF VII (Nojima) and the original director (Kitase) plus the main designer of the original (Nomura) really should be the best possible creative team to take on FF VII.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Cloudbahamut

[XileLerinril]

1 hour ago, Cloudbahamut said:

Well Jessie is definitely dead. She literally died right in front of Cloud and Tifa. And the Whispers were not anywhere near that. And her death was a very important scene particularly with the buildup towards it. Biggs never clearly died onscreen. if you rewatch the scene with Biggs he was never clearly killed like Jessie was. He just sat there and stopped moving. He could have easily just lost his consciousness. When Barret later asked Cloud about it, Cloud never told him Biggs had died, only that he had been in "pretty bad shape". I am guessing that the Whispers would have waited to see wether Biggs would recover or not and if he did they would kill him to correct things like they apparently killed Wedge (Though the screen going black during that moment is very suspicious, even he could still be alive now).
 

You can see Jessie's gloves n the table next to Biggs when he wakes up. They cant show blood because they are trying to avoid an M rating, but Biggs 100 percent was as dead as Jessie was. I am not sure if we have two timelines, one where Zack lived and the one we played through, or if the games timeline is retroactively changing things to account for Zack being alive, but in either case the scene where Biggs wakes up is in the same timeline as Zack being alive. Having the gloves next to him has most people thinking that Jessie is alive as well, due to Zack wrecking Shinra. Even Reno and Rude would be little challenge to him.

1 hour ago, Cloudbahamut said:

 

But those are not things I got a problem with. It is the last chapter that confuses the hell out of me. Things that happen there, things that Sephiroth says just make no sense no matter how often I watch it. It's just so weird.

Like how is Sephiroth able to open a portal to the Whisper realm ? Why does he say that he wants to "protect the Planet" ? What does he mean when he says that the Planet will one day become part of the Edge of Creation but he and Cloud will never end ?
 

You actually get a line from Aerith where she outright states he is lying when he says he wants to protect the planet, but I cant recall exactly where it is. I think, and this is pure theory, that he is kinda hoping to dupe Cloud into trusting him. Cloud is still mentally broken at this point, he has no idea what is going on, and Sephiroth can exert some control over him through the Jenova cells. Why fight the one person that you KNOW can put up a fight when you can talk him around to helping you. Its the same thing he did in the OG game in getting the black materia, he is just trying to be diplomatic about it instead of going full mind control. 

 

As for the Whisper realm thing, I think that has to do with Sephiroth being at the edge of creation, which is where I think the OG sephiroth is. We have the clones hanging about most of the game, this is who we see when Sephiroth appears before us in the game, then we have the one who is in the lifestream in the northern crater, just like in the old game. But I think we now also have the Sephiroth from the first game who is at the edge of creation and has all the future knowledge. The name edge of creation implies that he is in a realm outside of what fate can control, fate being tied to the will of the planet. With his foreknowledge and location outside of fate, and his original conscience still being a part of the life stream, I beleive it has given him the ability to manipulate or exert his will over the whispers. So when all of them gather at the end, including the big one, he is able to cut a hole and enter their domain. Total theory, but that is how I am looking at it for now. 

 

As for the planet becoming a part of the edge of creation, he is saying that one day the planet will hit a point beyond its predetermined destiny. More or less that the results of what choices he and Cloud make for the planet are still to come. They are beyond the edge, but eventually when they come to pass they will become the edge, because the edge is expanding as new events unfold. He is being really wordy in saying that actions now have consequence. As for him and cloud not ending, this is a multi part statement. First it alludes to him being immortal as long as Jenova is around he can come back. Whenever he does Cloud is always there to stop him. Secondly I think it is a wink to the player base as well, saying that it may have been 20 years, but they are still here and still relevant to the gaming world. 

1 hour ago, Cloudbahamut said:

 

Why does Sephiroth suddenly control the Whispers (when they surround the party at his command) ? Was it the real Midgar that Sephiroth hit with Supernova or was this another illusion conjured up by him in thr Whisper realm ? Why was there a burst of light from Midgar when Zack defeated the soldiers when that is supposed to take place 5 years earlier ? None of this makes any fucking sense and it frustrates the hell out of me.

 

I am of the opinion that the fight with the whispers is more or less mental. Midgar is not wrecked. You can see when the tornadoes are sucking things up, they are taking copies they leave the original. Like when the highway gets ripped up, but it is still there as well. I also don't think you really fight Sephiroth in the whisper void. He cuts the hole and steps through, and then I think he goes away. His goal is to have you fight Destiny. If you go through and do that then he wins. You either die or kill Destiny, he is happy with either. I think the Sephiroth we fight in the end is actually the whispers final last ditch effort to stop you . All of the whispers rush into him when you start the fight, like he absorbs all of them and meteor, and a lot of people think it is him taking them under control, but I was more of the impression they were condensing what power they had left into a form for you to fight. When you kill him he explodes into a cloud of small whispers, and I think that is what he really was. The real Sephiroth is at the edge of creation, and as soon as you kill fate for him he immediately mind jacks Cloud to have a chat. When Cloud refuses to work with him and attacks Sephiroth kicks his ass, Cloud is fighting harder right there then he has anywhere else and he still never even comes close to beating Sephiroth. This can explain why they are able to beat him so early in the story, it is the whispers not him, and they are no where near as strong as him.

 

I think the burst of light shows the things that Cloud changed with his 7 seconds. Zack lives because the whispers are gone. Also it is only a month maybe between Zacks death and the start of OG FF7, not 5 years. You see other bursts of light on changes, such as Biggs and the seventh heaven sign, which has different damage then it does in the actual game. Beyond that it is unclear as these things are deliberately left open for speculation and I don't think we will know until the next game. 

[Cloudbahamut]

17 minutes ago, XileLerinril said:

You can see Jessie's gloves n the table next to Biggs when he wakes up. They cant show blood because they are trying to avoid an M rating, but Biggs 100 percent was as dead as Jessie was. I am not sure if we have two timelines, one where Zack lived and the one we played through, or if the games timeline is retroactively changing things to account for Zack being alive, but in either case the scene where Biggs wakes up is in the same timeline as Zack being alive. Having the gloves next to him has most people thinking that Jessie is alive as well, due to Zack wrecking Shinra. Even Reno and Rude would be little challenge to him.

You actually get a line from Aerith where she outright states he is lying when he says he wants to protect the planet, but I cant recall exactly where it is. I think, and this is pure theory, that he is kinda hoping to dupe Cloud into trusting him. Cloud is still mentally broken at this point, he has no idea what is going on, and Sephiroth can exert some control over him through the Jenova cells. Why fight the one person that you KNOW can put up a fight when you can talk him around to helping you. Its the same thing he did in the OG game in getting the black materia, he is just trying to be diplomatic about it instead of going full mind control. 

 

As for the Whisper realm thing, I think that has to do with Sephiroth being at the edge of creation, which is where I think the OG sephiroth is. We have the clones hanging about most of the game, this is who we see when Sephiroth appears before us in the game, then we have the one who is in the lifestream in the northern crater, just like in the old game. But I think we now also have the Sephiroth from the first game who is at the edge of creation and has all the future knowledge. The name edge of creation implies that he is in a realm outside of what fate can control, fate being tied to the will of the planet. With his foreknowledge and location outside of fate, and his original conscience still being a part of the life stream, I beleive it has given him the ability to manipulate or exert his will over the whispers. So when all of them gather at the end, including the big one, he is able to cut a hole and enter their domain. Total theory, but that is how I am looking at it for now. 

 

As for the planet becoming a part of the edge of creation, he is saying that one day the planet will hit a point beyond its predetermined destiny. More or less that the results of what choices he and Cloud make for the planet are still to come. They are beyond the edge, but eventually when they come to pass they will become the edge, because the edge is expanding as new events unfold. He is being really wordy in saying that actions now have consequence. As for him and cloud not ending, this is a multi part statement. First it alludes to him being immortal as long as Jenova is around he can come back. Whenever he does Cloud is always there to stop him. Secondly I think it is a wink to the player base as well, saying that it may have been 20 years, but they are still here and still relevant to the gaming world. 

I am of the opinion that the fight with the whispers is more or less mental. Midgar is not wrecked. You can see when the tornadoes are sucking things up, they are taking copies they leave the original. Like when the highway gets ripped up, but it is still there as well. I also don't think you really fight Sephiroth in the whisper void. He cuts the hole and steps through, and then I think he goes away. His goal is to have you fight Destiny. If you go through and do that then he wins. You either die or kill Destiny, he is happy with either. I think the Sephiroth we fight in the end is actually the whispers final last ditch effort to stop you . All of the whispers rush into him when you start the fight, like he absorbs all of them and meteor, and a lot of people think it is him taking them under control, but I was more of the impression they were condensing what power they had left into a form for you to fight. When you kill him he explodes into a cloud of small whispers, and I think that is what he really was. The real Sephiroth is at the edge of creation, and as soon as you kill fate for him he immediately mind jacks Cloud to have a chat. When Cloud refuses to work with him and attacks Sephiroth kicks his ass, Cloud is fighting harder right there then he has anywhere else and he still never even comes close to beating Sephiroth. This can explain why they are able to beat him so early in the story, it is the whispers not him, and they are no where near as strong as him.

 

I think the burst of light shows the things that Cloud changed with his 7 seconds. Zack lives because the whispers are gone. Also it is only a month maybe between Zacks death and the start of OG FF7, not 5 years. You see other bursts of light on changes, such as Biggs and the seventh heaven sign, which has different damage then it does in the actual game. Beyond that it is unclear as these things are deliberately left open for speculation and I don't think we will know until the next game. 

Thank you that is a very interesting take that clears some things up but I do not agree with some aspects of it. I do not think that there are actually two Sephiroths around at the same time. I think that the Sephiroth in the Lifestream (without a body) and the Sephiroth that Cloud faces at the Edge of Creation are one and the same. The Sephiroth you physically meet in the game are definitely the clones though how Sephiroth is able to shapeshift them into his form (which he never could in the original) remains a mystery.

The scene between Cloud and Sephiroth at the Edge of Creation was purely in Clouds mind IMO. I interpreted this as Sephiroth trying to manipulate Cloud into giving into him so he can mindcontrol him like he does in the original game. Sephiroth does this several times in the game when he seemingly appears to Cloud trying to get him to submit to him. I think this is a mental struggle during which Sephiroth tries to break Clouds will and once he is successful he will be able to mindcontrol him.

Also if the Whispers removal resulted in Zacks survival how come that everything the Whispers did in the Remake (such as resurrecting Barret. injuring Jessie or stopping Hojo from telling Cloud the truth among many other things) was not undone as well ? How come Zacks death is undone but not these other things ? And how come if Zack survived and was at the Pillar to save Biggs and Jessie and fight Reno and Rude, Cloud was still there at the end with the Buster sword thinking that Zacks past was his own ? That just doesn't add up for me. If Zack was alive and basically took Clouds role in the entire game then Cloud should not even be there as soon as the Whispers are defeated.

Then there is this weird illusion/image of Zack and Cloud walking right by Aerith and the others which I also did not quite understand. Was this Aerith seeing the new past ? Or a symbol of two different timelines existing parallel to each other ?

Edited April 19, 2020 by Cloudbahamut

[XileLerinril]

15 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

Thank you that is a very interesting take that clears some things up but I do not agree with some aspects of it. I do not think that there are actually two Sephiroths around at the same time. I think that the Sephiroth in the Lifestream (without a body) and the Sephiroth that Cloud faces at the Edge of Creation are one and the same. The Sephiroth you physically meet in the game are definitely the clones though how Sephiroth is able to shapeshift them into his form (which he never could in the original) remains a mystery.

That is entirely possible, we don't really know enough about how they are doing time travel to work out the exact rules. It could be they are pulling a Days of Futures Past, and Sephiroth now just has the knowledge and more or less is his future self. With him being a part of the life stream, and the life stream being existent across all timeline, since both it and the whispers are agents of the planet, it could be that he is simply casting is knowledge into his physical shell in the timeline we play. 

15 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

The scene between Cloud and Sephiroth at the Edge of Creation was purely in Clouds mind IMO. I interpreted this as Sephiroth trying to manipulate Cloud into giving into him so he can mindcontrol him like he does in the original game. Sephiroth does this several times in the game when he seemingly appears to Cloud trying to get him to submit to him. I think this is a mental struggle during which Sephiroth tries to break Clouds will and once he is successful he will be able to mindcontrol him.

I agree that it is in Cloud's mind, but I do think that it is also a real place, and it is likely where the core part of Sephiroths conscience is residing. The seven seconds of change is only possible in such a space, and since we see that things do change something has to have happened. I am in agreement that Sephiroth was hoping to manipulate him into working with him or mind controlling him. The fact that he calls Cloud in for a chat the second fate is put down shows that he was hoping to immediately win, but while Cloud is not recovered yet he is a lot closer to being Cloud and not Zack then he was in the original game, so he does not fall for the manipulation.

 

15 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

Also if the Whispers removal resulted in Zacks survival how come that everything the Whispers did in the Remake (such as resurrecting Barret. injuring Jessie or stopping Hojo from telling Cloud the truth among many other things) was not undone as well ? How come Zacks death is undone but not these other things ? And how come if Zack survived and was at the Pillar to save Biggs and Jessie and fight Reno and Rude, Cloud was still there at the end with the Buster sword thinking that Zacks past was his own ? That just doesn't add up for me. If Zack was alive and basically took Clouds role in the entire game then Cloud should not even be there as soon as the Whispers are defeated.

This is because Cloud actively made that change in his seven seconds. Its not so much that the whispers are beaten, its that with out them there Cloud can make this one change, and from that change everything else changes. It is really going to depend on how they handle the time lines, but I can see it going two ways. If there are two time lines, the one we played, and the one in which Zack is alive, then you can assume that nothing in our timeline will change. Zack is still dead, Biggs and Jessie are still dead, ect. How they plan to work a second non connected timeline into the narrative I don't know. Some people are saying that them showing Zack alive is fan service and is used to illustrate that there are multiple timelines, but that they don't intend to work it into the larger narrative. I don't buy this, because showing Zack off and making everyone think he is coming back just to say he is not and it was all just a metaphor is disappointing. They know we will want more, so they have to be doing something with it. 

 

The other option is that with Zack alive our time line shifts to reflect this. There are now a series of events where Zack is doing things. I think personally that he does not go on the bombing run, Cloud does. His story shifts from I am 1st class, to we are 1st class, or some variation. He still sells the mercenary line. Likley he is not using the buster sword, but some other sword or weapon. He still has all the jenova cells and still heard all the tales from Zack, so combat wise he should still be the same. Zack stays home, he is injured from the fight with Shinra. You can see he can barely stand and is really struggling to carry Cloud. He skips the second run as well, so Cloud still falls and meets Aerith. He is there to defend the tower and by then he is back on his feat. He kicks the crap out of Reno and Rude, but fails to stop the tower dropping. Biggs and Jessie are not as hurt, they live. He never runs into Aerith, but he does find out she is taken captive so he goes with the group to storm shinra. This is all off the top of my head, but I can see something like this happening. Now the games timeline shifts to reflect these changes. Cloud recalls what happened with the seven seconds and in the game we played, but he also recalls the events of the Zack timeline. I am not sure if the others would or not, but I think Aerith would. My question in all of this, if this is true, is where is he at the end. He should be with the group overlooking Midgar but he is not. I know this has a lot of holes in it, and I don't expect to be right on all of it, but something like this is what I expect to see happen if they plan to make him front and center in the next game. 

15 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

Then there is this weird illusion/image of Zack and Cloud walking right by Aerith and the others which I also did not quite understand. Was this Aerith seeing the new past ? Or a symbol of two different timelines existing parallel to each other ?

I think it is the second one. Assuming that they do not go with the Zack is alive merged timeline thing, then this was done to show that Aerith is aware of the timeline changes. I personally am inclined to think she has full knowledge, or at least a lot of knowledge, of the original game. She knows cloud is a merc before he says so, she knows who Marlene is and where she is before Tifa mentions her, and the talk she gives Cloud in the garden about not falling in love with her shows that she knows she is going to die, and does not want Cloud to become the depressed loner he is in Advent Children, and that she knows him more then she lets on. She says she is thankful for all the memories and the time spent together, which struck me as odd. They have only known each other a few days, but if she remembers all of the original then this makes more sense. Her seeing Zack just further shows she can see the changes. 

[th-93]

The Zack and Cloud situation could still be explained.
For example: Let's imagine both arrived afely in the town, I doubt Zack could just stay there.

Nobody cared about Cloud but Zack is a soldier first class, Shinra wouldn't just let him settle in the slums considering how much of a possible threat he can be to them.

So he could have decided to leave his sword with Cloud for some reason (for protection or for more emotional-focused reasons).

Now the situation would be Cloud alone in a soldier 1st class uniform and the buster sword, meaning his damaged mind would fabricate his wrong identity like in the original game while zack is in hiding soemwhere, chilling at some beach or who knows what.

I don't get why Zack would've needed to interfere at the pillar anyway for the others to survive, shortly before their death there were whispers around biggs and jessie so simply removing those would be enough to keep them alive. That would also explain why the plate still fell, because if Zack really was there he would've probably been able to prevent that from happening.
The changed damage would fit that theory because a change in the fight at the pillar and thus the difference in damage at the structure before the fall would mean the debris to land in different places or hitting buildings from different angles.

As for the changes which don't apear to be reverted, it might easily be explained by smaller changes meaning without the party seeing the whispers (how it should've been had the events played out nomrally) those events wouldn't have occured in the first place. They would've reacited differently in some situations or arrived at certain places sooner or later.

I'm not so sure about the 7 seconds, only changing 7s would mein the whispers could just interfere with it again to correct the course of the story.
It might mean something completely different, like how long Cloud in his currenty state could put up a fight against him in a serious situation. That way perhaps finding a way to prevents other events which would happen even without the whispers influence. (weak theory but so is every other about that comment)

[Cloudbahamut]

People take this "7 seconds" thing so literally but I think this was just another cryptic hint by Sephiroth about the events of the original game or more specifically Aeriths death.

You hear the exact same music in that scene that you hear right before Aerith dies and the time between Sephiroth descending from above until he kills Aerith in the original is....wait for it.....

7 seconds.

[th-93]

11 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

People take this "7 seconds" thing so literally but I think this was just another cryptic hint by Sephiroth about the events of the original game or more specifically Aeriths death.

You hear the exact same music in that scene that you hear right before Aerith dies and the time between Sephiroth descending from above until he kills Aerith in the original is....wait for it.....

7 seconds.

 

Also possible.

I didn't even put much thought into the 7 seconds. Just a few thoughts popping up in my head.

[ChaosDivider]

15 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

People take this "7 seconds" thing so literally but I think this was just another cryptic hint by Sephiroth about the events of the original game or more specifically Aeriths death.

You hear the exact same music in that scene that you hear right before Aerith dies and the time between Sephiroth descending from above until he kills Aerith in the original is....wait for it.....

7 seconds.

That's quite interesting actually. I wonder if that means that Cloud still has the power to change 7 seconds of the main timeline somehow to prevent Aerith from dying or to stop Sephiroth using the black materia.

 

But without the whispers though they may not be on the same course any longer anyway so those events may not happen in the same way...

[XileLerinril]

23 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

People take this "7 seconds" thing so literally but I think this was just another cryptic hint by Sephiroth about the events of the original game or more specifically Aeriths death.

You hear the exact same music in that scene that you hear right before Aerith dies and the time between Sephiroth descending from above until he kills Aerith in the original is....wait for it.....

7 seconds.

People keep saying that, but it makes no sense. They show you the fall from multiple camera angles, plus he is falling in slow motion. Otherwise he would have moved from where he started to where he stabs her in less then a second or two. In universe that does not take seven seconds. Plus if you want to get really nit picky on it, he actually stabs her at the 8th second. The blade makes contact with her back at 7, but when it appears through her it is 8 seconds. 

[Cloudbahamut]

50 minutes ago, XileLerinril said:

People keep saying that, but it makes no sense. They show you the fall from multiple camera angles, plus he is falling in slow motion. Otherwise he would have moved from where he started to where he stabs her in less then a second or two. In universe that does not take seven seconds. Plus if you want to get really nit picky on it, he actually stabs her at the 8th second. The blade makes contact with her back at 7, but when it appears through her it is 8 seconds. 

lol so much of this makes no sense. Doesn't mean it is not true. Personally I think people give way too much importance to that 7 seconds thing and I really don't believe that this was Sephiroth telling Cloud "You got 7 seconds to change one thing. Go." Cloud then choosing to change Zacks fate makes no sense as he does not even remember Zack at that point.

Also Sephiroth does not say "you have 7 seconds to change something", he says "7 seconds until the end". Meaning Aeriths end. I mean if the 7 seconds is not a giveaway then hearing the exact same music there that we hear when Sephiroths descends on Aerith should make this obvious.  In my opinion it was just another cryptic hint towards something from the original game. Cloud did not actively change anything of his own choosing. None of them did. They only did away with the Whispers to free themselves up from fate to choose their own destiny. And thats really it.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Cloudbahamut

[blackf1re-]

I believe the ending was designed to leave everything open. The final story is probably not "set in stone yet", as others have mentioned on reddit. I'm not sure what to think of the story changes so far. It could lean more towards the original game with a slightly modified sequence of events, or go down a completely new route, we won't really know until part 2 is released.

[XileLerinril]

12 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

lol so much of this makes no sense. Doesn't mean it is not true. Personally I think people give way too much importance to that 7 seconds thing and I really don't believe that this was Sephiroth telling Cloud "You got 7 seconds to change one thing. Go." Cloud then choosing to change Zacks fate makes no sense as he does not even remember Zack at that point.

Also Sephiroth does not say "you have 7 seconds to change something", he says "7 seconds until the end". Meaning Aeriths end. I mean if the 7 seconds is not a giveaway then hearing the exact same music there that we hear when Sephiroths descends on Aerith should make this obvious.  In my opinion it was just another cryptic hint towards something from the original game. Cloud did not actively change anything of his own choosing. None of them did. They only did away with the Whispers to free themselves up from fate to choose their own destiny. And thats really it.

"Seven seconds to the end. Time enough for you, perhaps. But what will you do with it." The implication being that Cloud has an opportunity to do something. Him killing Aerith is not seven seconds, neither in the cutscene or in the game. It takes 8 seconds in the cut scene and it takes 1 or 2 in universe. Also I cant find the names of the tracts playing, but they do not sound the same to me.  Killing the whispers does not change what has already happened, because as pointed out their prior actions still exists. So Zack being alive is an active change, and Cloud is the only one in the position to do something like that. The rest of the changes come from Zack being around. 

[ShadowReplicant]

On 4/19/2020 at 7:52 PM, Cloudbahamut said:

People take this "7 seconds" thing so literally but I think this was just another cryptic hint by Sephiroth about the events of the original game or more specifically Aeriths death.

You hear the exact same music in that scene that you hear right before Aerith dies and the time between Sephiroth descending from above until he kills Aerith in the original is....wait for it.....

7 seconds.

 

The 7 seconds thing is literally explained in the game (chapter synopsis): "In the world beyond, Sephiroth shows Cloud a vision of the planet seven seconds before its demise. Having strayed from the course destiny set for them, they strike out on a path toward an unknown future."

 

This could be a red herring, but we simply won't know until the next game comes out.

[Cloudbahamut]

11 hours ago, ShadowReplicant said:

 

The 7 seconds thing is literally explained in the game (chapter synopsis): "In the world beyond, Sephiroth shows Cloud a vision of the planet seven seconds before its demise. Having strayed from the course destiny set for them, they strike out on a path toward an unknown future."

 

This could be a red herring, but we simply won't know until the next game comes out.

Hm okay but it still aligns with what I said earlier. That this whole scene is Sephiroth trying to manipulate Cloud into giving in to him so he can take him over like he did in the original and Cloud refusing to do so. I still don't believe that Cloud was actually deliberately and conciously changing Zacks fate in the past in that scene. For one he does not even remember Zack anymore or what actually really happened in Nibelheim. So I am not buying this. Something else was responsible for changing Zacks fate (either in this new altered timeline or a seperate alternate one) and we just don't know the answer yet.

I have come up with a theory though as to why Sephiroth suddenly has knowledge of the (original) future which he did not have in the original game which is kinda the catalyst of all the changes in Remake. I know there are theories about time travel and whatnot but I rather think that when Sephiroth was defeated in Advent Children and was condemned to only exist without a form in the Lifestream, he learned (or already knew) about the Whispers and sent his knowledge through the lifestream to his past self (right before the original FF VII when he was in the Lifestream mastering his powers over JENOVA etc.) and when the past Sephiroth who gained knowledge and power through the Lifestream gained this new knowledge he chose change a few things to manipulate Cloud and the others into taking out the Whispers for him and change his own fate.

Namely he actively sent the Sephiroth clones to Midgar (which he did not do in the original. IIRC we first meet the clones in the original in Kalm or Nibelheim right ?) to use them as vessels to manipulate Cloud and actively used his powers to show Cloud glimpses of the future (which he also did not do in the original) to manipulate him. Then Sephiroth later used the clones as vessels in the Shinra HQ instead of JENOVA to cause further changes such as preventing the capture of Cloud and the others (in the original), or not killing the President right away in JENOVA's form and killing Barret instead.

One thing I still don't get though. Why did the Whispers attack Aerith on Loveless street when Cloud sees her for the first time ? Why did they intervene there ? Everything was as it was supposed to be. Cloud runs into Aerith, would have bought her flower and tell her to run away etc. Originally the Whispers do not intervene there and as a result Cloud never sees them and never learns of their existence in the original. What happened in that scene in Remake that made them intervene which triggered a whole chain reaction of changes.

I also did not understand why Barret, Tifa and the others can see the Whispers when they attack Sector 7 and afterwards. Cloud only was able to see them when Aerith touched him but Tifa and the others could see them right away. While for example Reno could not see them at all in the church. Very confusing.

[MyNameIs_Rainman]

4 hours ago, Cloudbahamut said:

I also did not understand why Barret, Tifa and the others can see the Whispers when they attack Sector 7 and afterwards. Cloud only was able to see them when Aerith touched him but Tifa and the others could see them right away. While for example Reno could not see them at all in the church. Very confusing.

Just like when Rufus is able to see them, but Tseng is just casually talking on his phone as if there isn't a giant whirlwind of black ghost spirit things engulfing the building lol. I think they simply show themselves to individuals of their choosing, or only to those who have a key stake with Fate and Destiny. When Aerith was being attacked in the beginning, nobody else could see it, so perhaps they were doing so in a way to force Cloud to interact with her to keep things on course, since Sephiroth shows up just prior maybe they are being reactive to his presence and attempting to ensure things go the way they should as per the Original. 

 

Honestly, I like all of this. FF7 has been so important to me from my childhood, and even if they decide to change some things, I really enjoy this..being older, more mature and understanding,  and being able to interact and discuss/debate these things about a game and experience we are all fans of. Some people are divided about the changes and potential future changes, but I'm just glad we are still talking Final Fantasy 7.

[SwicySauce]

This is a theory I saw elsewhere, but I think there's something to it. When....

 

Sephiroth says to Cloud "7 seconds, time enough for you perhaps", I believe that he's giving Cloud 7 seconds to change something in the past. We don't actually see what Cloud does, but we then see that Zack has survived and all the Shinra troopers are dead. Seems like Cloud used his 7 seconds to go back in time to this point and save Zack. Why Sephiroth gave him this chance, i'm not sure.

Edited April 22, 2020 by SwicySauce
Added spoiler tag

[ShadowReplicant]

I just refuse to believe that there's any kind of time traveling going on in the remake. I really hope the writers aren't THAT stupid. All this Whisper stuff and Sephiroth/Aerith knowing future events is hopefully the result of "Lifestream shenanigans".

 

The Whispers are a product of the planet, they are its will. Another defense mechanism like the Weapons perhaps. Both Aerith and Sephiroth are connected to the planet, Aerith as an Ancient who can hear its voice sometimes, and Sephiroth as a parasite who is feeding off the Lifestream. I think the planet, as a sort of omniscient entity, has a "blueprint" for the future, and Sephiroth having fallen into the Lifestream probably got a good look at it at some point.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by ShadowReplicant

[Cloudbahamut]

8 hours ago, ShadowReplicant said:

I just refuse to believe that there's any kind of time travelling going on in the remake. I really hope the writers aren't THAT stupid. All this Whisper stuff and Sephiroth/Aerith knowing future events is hopefully the result of "Lifestream shenanigans".

 

The Whispers are a product of the planet, they are its will. Another defense mechanism like the Weapons perhaps. Both Aerith and Sephiroth are connected to the planet, Aerith as an Ancient who can hear its voice sometimes, and Sephiroth as a parasite who is feeding off the Lifestream. I think the planet, as a sort of omniscient entity, has a "blueprint" for the future, and Sephiroth having fallen into the Lifestream probably got a good look at it at some point.

 

Yes but the problem with this is that Sephiroth did not have this knowledge in the original even though he was still in the Lifestream. If it was the Lifestream giving him this knowledge he always should have had it. Thats why I think the best explanation would be that future Sephiroth sends his knowledge through the Lifestream to past Sephiroth to change his own fate right before he (future Seph) dissolves in the Lifestream. It would not actually be time travel, he would just send his knowledge through time to his younger self. I would be cool with that. And the Lifestream existing and connecting all of time and space makes sense in that universe. And it would explain why Sephiroth suddenly has knowledge in the past that he did not have in the original, which resulted in the changes and the Whispers taking action. Which was probably future Sephiroths intention to change his own fate. And since defying fate seems to be a big theme in Remake this seems very fitting.

 

12 hours ago, SwicySauce said:

This is a theory I saw elsewhere, but I think there's something to it. When....

  Hide contents

Sephiroth says to Cloud "7 seconds, time enough for you perhaps", I believe that he's giving Cloud 7 seconds to change something in the past. We don't actually see what Cloud does, but we then see that Zack has survived and all the Shinra troopers are dead. Seems like Cloud used his 7 seconds to go back in time to this point and save Zack. Why Sephiroth gave him this chance, i'm not sure.

Yes lots of people believe that but it makes no sense since Cloud has not discovered the truth yet and thus does not remember Zack. How can he change the fate of someone he does not even remember. Sorry, not believing in that. But why Sephiroth would want Cloud to change things is obvious - he wants him to change history so Sephiroth can win this time.

 

14 hours ago, MyNameIs_Rainman said:

Just like when Rufus is able to see them, but Tseng is just casually talking on his phone as if there isn't a giant whirlwind of black ghost spirit things engulfing the building lol. I think they simply show themselves to individuals of their choosing, or only to those who have a key stake with Fate and Destiny. When Aerith was being attacked in the beginning, nobody else could see it, so perhaps they were doing so in a way to force Cloud to interact with her to keep things on course, since Sephiroth shows up just prior maybe they are being reactive to his presence and attempting to ensure things go the way they should as per the Original. 

 

But wouldn't Cloud have talked to her anyway (like in the original) and bought her flower ? I mean thats how things went in the original. The only thing I can think of that would change that would be Sephiroth appearing to Cloud and causing him to just run by Aerith without noticing her since he would be busy thinking about Sephiroth. Which might also be the reason why Sephiroth appears to him there - he wants Cloud to ignore Aerith and thus create more changes, triggering the Whispers. Or Sephiroth actually appeared to Cloud right before he meets Aerith because Sephiroth wanted the Whispers to intervene so Cloud would learn of their existence (which was a pretty big change from the original) as part of his manipulation to pit Cloud against the Whispers. He is the master manipulator after all.

[ShadowReplicant]

10 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

Thats why I think the best explanation would be that future Sephiroth sends his knowledge through the Lifestream to past Sephiroth to change his own fate right before he (future Seph) dissolves in the Lifestream. It would not actually be time travel, he would just send his knowledge through time to his younger self. I would be cool with that.

 

Yeah, I'd be willing to accept that. It's certainly a lot more in line with the established lore than Sephiroth traveling back in time like a goddamn Terminator. ?