Dancing minigame + cross-dress scene: cringe or no? [POLL]

[JoaLoft]

Here's an interesting question: what do you think of the light-hearted cross-dress sequence, which helps break up the dark tone of the game's overall story?

 

For newcomers: the cross-dress scene is not new. It was included in the original game back in 1997, and had multiple outcomes. However, they elaborated more on this sequence in the remake and also added a dancing minigame at the Honeybee Inn.

 

Now, I've been seeing comments and remarks over at a certain person's channel and social media (who shall remain nameless) where I read and heard opinions that they find this whole sequence to feel out of place and even make them cringe, going so far as to call people who approve of this sort of thing as "beta cucks". At this point, I thought: "screw it, let's open a poll over at PSN Profiles and ask the community what they think." I attached a poll, feel free to tell us what you think about this part in the remake? And just for context, perhaps it's best to add whether or not you played the original.

 

I played the original FF7 multiple times over the last 20 years. Didn't feel out of place back then, still doesn't feel out of place. If anything, it's just innocent witty humor, having a mercenary infiltrate a sex-crazed don's hideout, dressed as a beautiful woman. Nothing offensive or strange about it, and I don't even mind the new dancing minigame at all, Not sure if Cloud would actually pull off those dance moves so willingly after being reluctant about the whole thing, but aside from that: it's fine.

 

Makes me genuinely think that guys who took personal offence to this, suffer from low self-esteem.

 

Edit: I changed the poll and started fresh, to make a clear distinction between the options.

Edited April 17, 2020 by JoaLoft
Poll edit + refresh

[Beyrone]

To be honest I feel like the majority of people who would have an issue with this are those that think it's wrong for two men to be in love.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Beyrone

[TJ_Solo]

My exposure to social media is limited for this reason. 

Any system that pays or rewards people for the amount of views they bring in will lead many seek attention and push issues that don't need to be pushed in a real or fake way just to pad their accounts.

However, if I take issue with something a person said I would address them directly rather then end it instead of polling different places for opinions. That looks weak to me.

[Han_the_Dragon]

That's 2 questions, not 1, so I don't vote.. 

 

I particularly didn't liked the dancing mini-game, but the original version probably would be distasteful with the easy trigger groups nowadays... So it's a lose-lose situation. 

 

As for the cross-dressing itself, my only complain is that getting Don Corneo to pick Cloud was a bonus for working towards getting all the best parts for Cloud dress, but in this version he always picks Cloud regardless (I made a thread on this a bit ago, but since no one replied, I tested with the various options for Cloud's dress). So, in this version the dresses are just pointless eye candy, doesn't change anything. 

[JoaLoft]

22 minutes ago, TJ_Solo said:

However, if I take issue with something a person said I would address them directly rather then end it instead of polling different places for opinions. That looks weak to me.

 

I disagree. I thought making a poll would be interesting.

 

This is a democracy and hearing other people's thoughts is never a bad idea. It's good to hear different opinions, so long as people support that opinion with good arguments. Yes, even when you dislike this particular sequence. So I'd like to stress that it's okay for people to say they dislike the implementation of said minigame and sequence, for a number of different reasons. Tastes differ, after all.

 

Stating that it's bad because you disapprove of two men being in love - as someone stated above - is nothing less than homophobia and doesn't count in my book.

15 minutes ago, Han_the_Dragon said:

That's 2 questions, not 1, so I don't vote.. 

 

I particularly didn't liked the dancing mini-game, but the original version probably would be distasteful with the easy trigger groups nowadays... So it's a lose-lose situation. 

 

As for the cross-dressing itself, my only complain is that getting Don Corneo to pick Cloud was a bonus for working towards getting all the best parts for Cloud dress, but in this version he always picks Cloud regardless (I made a thread on this a bit ago, but since no one replied, I tested with the various options for Cloud's dress). So, in this version the dresses are just pointless eye candy, doesn't change anything. 

 

Hmm, fair point. I did lump two different questions into a single one. Changed the poll, thanks for mentioning.

 

This is a completely valid opinion for instance, to get my point across. I guess you could say that the dancing minigame is nothing more than just fluff: it doesn't really emphasize the relationship between Cloud and Aerith, nor does it add anything substantial to the story. The Corneo Cup does a much better job in that regard then. Still, I didn't mind it really.

 

And I do also agree that - although it's neat that Cloud getting picked is canon in the remake - I would have liked it if they kept the multiple outcomes intact like in the original one. Aside from that, it's all okay.

 

Just wish we were already able to kick Corneo in his balls. I guess they're saving that bit for later. (If you've thoroughly played the original game, you know what I'm talking about. Don't want to give away any location or story spoilers.)

Edited April 17, 2020 by JoaLoft

[SnowNinjaRaccoon]

Not even close to being as weird/cringeworthy as the scene in the original where cloud gets molested by a group of buffed bodybuilders in the sauna ^^

[You]

I enjoyed the dance, although the music was a bit chipmunk synth crappy though. It's better than the original FF7 one which were quite creepy, you either spaz out on the floor and a ghost of you sort of appears, or like SnowNinjaRacoon says, you get in a sauna crammed with dudes.

Edited April 17, 2020 by enaysoft

[JoaLoft]

Making a quick update: I changed and refreshed the poll. Sorry to everyone who already voted, but the remark made by Han_the_Dragon was legitimate, and I needed to make a clear distinction between the options.

[LucienNL]

This weird ass shit is one of the reasons I do not fuck with anime or final fantasy. 

[ShadowReplicant]

Everything that happened in the Wall Market chapter was absolute perfection. They couldn't have done a better job of recreating this part of the game. The original FF VII, unlike Advent Children, was wacky, silly and funny in a lot of places and I'm glad they remembered that.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by ShadowReplicant

[MyNameIs_Rainman]

Voted. I found it to be humorous, and it was like 3AM and my red bull wasn't kicking in for the long gaming session I was doing, but once I got up to that it was energetic, flamboyant and eccentric..woke me up quick! I loved it because it was different and it was fun. The original, and this one, covers a range of emotional ground, and can get pretty dark...moments like these are what give it a bit of humanity and make it feel more lifelike. My only hope is that the Gold Saucer keeps that excitement alive. The mini games in 7 were always quirky and a bit mindless..it was a way to blow off steam from this crazy adventure you're on, and they hit it on the head perfectly. Wall Market is a place that is walled in..your troubles, outside life etc. None of it matters there, so it was nice that this segment reflected that, it was open expression, freedom and discovery, and it helps round Cloud out from this tough guy facade to the man he becomes at the end of the game. 

 

If you think its cringeworthy, shame on you for assuming the remake of one of the most critically acclaimed JRPGs was going to not keep any of its JRPG charm and wackiness lol. People will always find something to criticize, and I understand it, but to each their own. I think it was great, and although I miss being able to influence the outcome of the Corneo Selection, at least they made it repayable in a sense that you need to go back and get the other outfits, so it scratches a different inch of sorts.

[Drumjod]

Great topic, question, poll, explanation, and thoughtful responses.

 

Getting FF7 in my mailbox when it came out was super exciting after growing up on Mystic Quest US, FFII US (FFIV), FFIII US (FFVI), Chrono Trigger, etc...I played FF7 repeatedly on PS1 back then, going for different Materia combinations/leveling, searching compulsively for secrets, and never got tired of it. Can't say the same for FF8 or FF9. I went back to play FF7 on PC several times over the years and it's one of my all time favorites.

 

FFX-2 was extremely cringey with this type of content and made me think this just wasn't my cup of tea. It seemed like the developers had lost their touch. My longtime attachment for the series still led me to play each one, completing at least one version of each numbered entry except for FFXI and FFXIII-3. Final Fantasy 7 Remake, however, absolutely nailed it and I'm amazed that the team did such an incredible job after the last few out of touch Final Fantasy's that tended to miss their mark with that sort of thing. The Wall Market scenes blew me away and the dancing mini-game was surprisingly amazing. I absolutely loved it and have re-watched the scene along with YouTube reactions several times already. Will watch more after I finish this excessively long and thorough response detailing some of my thoughts on the subject

 

I also have the impression that most folks who have a problem with the scenes have strong and narrow opinions so sensitive that they get offended and 'triggered' when most others are okay with the opposing view. I'm talking about folks who preach or claim it's a sign of the end times that most of the world has become accepting of alternative lifestyles and less judgmental. Growing up in that kind of sheltered and closed off community took great effort to overcome and accept. I'm grateful for an old friend who had the courage and care to respectfully argue against the opinions I'd been brainwashed to hold. Also grateful that my mind back then was open enough to entertain beliefs which I'd been taught would result in an afterlife of eternal torture in hell.

 

I respect that some personally found it cringeworthy. We can always agree to disagree and still enjoy enlightening discussions to understand more points of view. For those who feel compelled to publicly express their offense, however, I don't have much respect for that but I'm still interested to hear why. I'd argue that they would be better off focusing on more constructive efforts and ignoring others personal lifestyle choices that clearly cause no harm.

 

The new scenes do not feel out of place though. They are true to the developers original intention. It's unique aspects like this that elevate what would be considered a good or great game to a classic or essential for many gamers. When developers, composers, and artists take greater risks to be creative like this, it may result in a masterpiece under the right conditions, team chemistry, and leadership. Playing it safe creatively or running out of ideas are both recipes for mediocrity and staleness. Playing it safe can bring in plenty of cash though, which is why most CEO's and shareholders will prioritize the safe route, essentially restricting artists from realizing their full potential. When artists are allowed more creative control like this, it can result in one of the rare gems that keeps selling long after the initial release.

 

My preference is to always do what's best for the piece of art when collaborating and I think this is essential for any artist who wants to be a part of something truly great. This isn't easy for some. It means learning to fight constructively and passionately to a certain point when the artist is convinced a better idea would be worth the battle. It also requires letting go of excessive expectations of ownership such as "it's not fair that my ideas were overridden for a 'better' idea." Being able to admit that there is almost always a better idea, but recognizing when the point of diminishing return indicates it's best to move on. Getting better at 'choosing your battles' wisely. This tends to be a subconscious bias that is not easy to recognize. It's a permutation of "there is no 'I' in team." The most valuable teammates recognize that their ideas inspire better ideas to evolve in a way that they can continue to expand, even if the original idea isn't ultimately what gets implemented. They continue to get better at recognizing what's best for the piece of art. They will not get butt-hurt when their suggestion gets shot down or replaced with a slightly or completely different one. Instead they look for ways to build and evolve every idea. That's how collaboration works at its best. Creating something much greater than the sum of its parts. Just like how S.E. finally recognized they are better off evolving and building on the Unreal Engine as a state of the art foundation rather than repeatedly trying and struggling to reinvent the wheel. The Unreal Engine provides all the bleeding edge game development technology so they can focus their efforts on what's specific to the game. Plus they can release to multiple platforms with relatively little effort. 

 

I'm extremely impressed with what Nobuo Uematsu and his team did with the soundtrack in this game. The music is so vast and varied that it almost feels like the whole game is painstakingly scored from beginning to end like a big budget 40+ hour blockbuster movie. The second song of Vibe Valentino in the stage dance mini-game stands out to me as just one of many examples that elevated the already fantastic sequence beyond anything I had imagined. The visuals combined with Cloud's dancing was shockingly entertaining and the standout tracks bring it to a new level I wouldn't have thought possible. The whole game builds up to that scene and it is like an unexpected full body release. Every streamer I've watched either laughed in delight or had a huge smile though it just like I did. I had no idea Uematsu could compose something like that. For all I know, the music team had multiple composers though. Some of the tracks sounds a lot like something you'd hear in FFXIII.

 

I'm only on chapter 11, but by the time I'd finished playing through the Wall Market chapter, I felt like 4-5 years of development since it was announced seem totally reasonable. It would take a lot of time and painstaking effort between all departments under the right conditions just to masterfully complete a 3 minute scene like that in addition to all of the quality content surrounding it to make it work so well. I'm so glad that the team finally learned their lesson from FFXIII, FFXIV (original launch), and FFvsXIII to FFXV, and migrated to the Unreal Engine. I believe the Unreal Engine is the root of some of the games most impressive technical, musical, graphical, and artistic achievements. There are the immaculately animated and detailed enemies / bosses like Abzu that can all be scrutinized in slow motion. Take a close look at that thing with it's hair, chains, realistically moving flesh, and tongue flailing around. It's likely the most realistically animated cartoon character I've ever seen. Imagine that thing up close in VR. Thanks to the Unreal Engine, I expect to see a lot of great mods when the game comes to PC. Among other things, I'm talking about the the impressively smooth slow motion animation combined with particle effects, dynamic music fluctuations, and so many things going on at once while performing consistently. The S.E. architects / programmers didn't have to struggle endlessly with hard to find bugs to make it all work together seamlessly this time. It just works, thanks to U.E., and I'm sure the support team at Epic was eager to help S.E. with any issues or technical improvements. FF7R certainly makes the team at Epic and their engine look really good. Unreal Engine gives developers the foundation for this stuff, but I know from using Unreal myself that it still takes a ton of time and effort from the whole team to pull it off so well. See the Cloud Ascension Limit - Slow Motion Buster Sword video for example: 

 

 

I can't overstate how blown away I've been by what they were able to accomplish from what I've seen and played so far. 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Drumjod

[Lovenewton]

It just felt uncomfortable for me, cause when I play a game I to some extent identify with the main character. And when they make Cloud crossdress it felt (to some extent) like I was forced to crossdress myself. I don’t have a problem with people crossdressing in general but I don’t want to have to participate in it I guess. Still love the game though. 

[Crispy_Oglop]

12 minutes ago, Lovenewton said:

It just felt uncomfortable for me, cause when I play a game I to some extent identify with the main character. And when they make Cloud crossdress it felt (to some extent) like I was forced to crossdress myself. I don’t have a problem with people crossdressing in general but I don’t want to have to participate in it I guess. Still love the game though. 

 

I think you are okay - I don't think this part was about identifying with the character because it wasn't 100% Cloud's choice to do the dress-up. You can still identify with Cloud here and it not make you feel weird inside or that you had to cross-dress yourself. The crossdressing part was a direct reference to the core story of the first game, so opting out wouldn't have been on the table.

[hsn963]

Sigh

My 4 y.o kid was watching me playing this section of the game without me paying any attention, only to suddenly ask me why is the boy (cloud) wearing a girl dress, i told him it is for haloween, he stated that he dont like this haloween because he lost his sword and that he should've worn a better BOY costume ?.

He thought that the dancing sequence is actually a sports one and asked me to go playing sport with him ?.

Yeah have to be careful next time.

Edited April 20, 2020 by hsn963

[TheBlackFool]

I think it was amazing and hilarious. 

[DEMON]

I voted neither, Cloud's just hilarious really when he gets put in a dress. And besides, a lot of the original stuff that you did to actually get a dress sorted is still within the game, literally the only scene taken away was the one where Cloud goes into like this... spa room? Whereas there's a bunch of bodybuilders etc, but the gym where you used to do squats in for the wig is still there (no wig anymore though), the restaurant is still there, the clothing shop mission is still there. Just used for different things, though I do theory that that the clothing mission results in Andrea being a customer to the old man when it comes to picking up a dress for Cloud, I know it doesn't matter but right after they are selecting a dress for someone at the Honeybee Inn.

[xmera_core]

I got 99 problems... but Cloud in a dress isn't one.

 

[BlackTorito]

Well, maybe I’m the only one that thinks that, specifically, Cloud dancing, out of nowhere, was at least a bit out of place?

 

I liked the dancing tutorial, nothing too serious and felt more “natural”, but Cloud dancing afterwards like he has been a crew member instead of a SOLDIER? I can understand he is slowly melting, but that was a huge jump.
 

Still, I took it as a funny break, since there is a lot of joking moments, but not gonna say it felt completely natural. I would’ve expected Andrea to give him some other test, like posing for him or something.

[Conor]

It was wonderful, hilarious and obviously fully intended to be utterly ridiculous. Plus, it was way better than how it was done in the original. Don't see why anyone would take issue.

[Lianco]

People that have problems with things like this have their own personal demons that they need to work on. 

People like DSP who go out of their way to show that they are 'uncomfortable' by stuff like this are just ridiculous. I'm glad its here in all its glory and then some. Some good to come out of this year lol.

[sunnydaleAlumni]

I just played this part and loved how it was gorgeous, funny and over the top campy all at the same time. It's going to be one of my favorite parts of the game. 

[anotherfangirl]

On 20.4.2020 at 5:15 PM, hsn963 said:

Sigh

My 4 y.o kid was watching me playing this section of the game without me paying any attention, only to suddenly ask me why is the boy (cloud) wearing a girl dress, i told him it is for haloween, he stated that he dont like this haloween because he lost his sword and that he should've worn a better BOY costume .

He thought that the dancing sequence is actually a sports one and asked me to go playing sport with him .

Yeah have to be careful next time.

 

Yes, it's really awful that your son saw another boy in a dress. Gasp! How horrible.

People sometimes, I can't even... ? 

 

On topic: I liked the whole scene, it was funny. It's nice to have something like that in an otherwise quite serious and dark game. And nothing wrong with men wearing dresses, there are many cultures from Scotland to countries in Asia and Africa where men do wear dress-like, or skirt-like clothing such as thobes, djellabas, togas or Chinese robes. Even in the Western world people are starting to wear "gender-free" clothing.

[Dry_Plumbus]

I'm not voting in the poll but, just i'll add in some of my own comments to what has already been said.

 

I think that there was little to no question this scene would be in the game, due to the fact it was in the original game and is a classic/infamous moment in it. Not to mention this is a Japanese game in origin and they have a long history of using cross dressing as a trope of humor in the culture. So it was expected, and welcomed by the fans of the original as far as I can tell.

 

Now for the controversial aspect of it, there mostly only is one because of insecurities. If the scene makes you feel some kind of negative emotion, that issue is with you yourself, not the content. In my humble opinion it was done in a very tasteful way and was not at all offensive or gratuitous in its delivery. 

 

If you bought and paid for a game that is a primarily story focused role playing game, with Japanese origins, and you are shocked or disturbed by this tame 10-15 min sequence, then you may need to step away from games and re-evaluate your life choices and your belief systems.

 

That all being said, I loved this scene and it was one of the highlights of the entire game. I love the juxtaposition between angry/stoic Cloud's persona and this complete flip to having to pretend to be a woman. It's glorious lol. And Cloud is androgynous enough that I bet more than a few people had an inner awakening sometime during or after the scene, hence some misplaced e-anger over it 

 

 

[AiManiaTrophyhuntres]

I loved the scene, already watched it several times for fun and the music, it's perfect!

I laughed tears and I love the message Anyan told Cloud in the end: When it comes to beauty and art, genders don't exist and never be afraid!

Such a great message to everyone feeling afraid of something bc someone in the society is judging.

And I love how cloud is not uncomfortable at all, he isn't flushing like I kind of expected, he is not refusing anything and theres no disrespect for any related topic from his side (he only didn't want to dance at first) - it is so important and I was just in awe and hyped and everything