Azaan60

Sony has found the TLOU2 leaker, saying they were not affiliated with either Sony or Naughty Dog

149 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Stardroid said:

It's almost as if people are working from home due to a certain virus spreading around and maybe some twat got a hold of some footage, you know, due to fuck all security from home and decided to leak it. 

But in that case, that person should be obliged to call it in to the developers and the police. If he didn't do it, he's just as guilty as the leaker himself. 

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That's like hitting someone with a shovel and then throwing it out behind your back and saying "no, it must have been the wind".

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Just now, HaserPL said:

But in that case, that person should be obliged to call it in to the developers and the police. If he didn't do it, he's just as guilty as the leaker himself. 

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That's like hitting someone with a shovel and then throwing it out behind your back and saying "no, it must have been the wind".

Neither me or you really know when and how the leaker was found. For all I know he could have been identified way sooner than we know. These things aren't up on the open immediately. Sony and ND have to think about what they do as it directly impacts their own business. There are so many factors that are possibly at play, that speculation is absolutely useless, that's what I am saying. Who says the developer was aware someone stole content from them for instance? Not saying that ND and Sony claims are true, but I'm not going to be that guy that's like CuCkMaN AnD SoNy are 10o% LyiNg. Because I can't know for certain. Probably best to call it a day again in these topics. This for me has been an incredibly draining experience and I wish people wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. The amount of clickbait titles, people being crybabies over nothing etc is mind boggling. But the ND apologists are also something. 

Look, I've seen the leaks and I can't say that I'm happy either with what I saw, but I have made my stance clear on what makes a story great before, not going to dive into that. All I know is that ND make good games. 

 

Enjoy your day. I'm out!

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Beyond what @Stardroid said, what's interesting to me is this. If that's true, the leak wasn't from their employee, but it was somehow stolen during the remote-quarantine-job, wouldn't they have noticed that someone broke into their office/house and literally recorded almost 30 minutes of footage, then uploaded/copied that, and left without anyone realizing?

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Just now, HaserPL said:

Beyond what @Stardroid said, what's interesting to me is this. If that's true, the leak wasn't from their employee, but it was somehow stolen during the remote-quarantine-job, wouldn't they have noticed that someone broke into their office/house and literally recorded almost 30 minutes of footage, then uploaded/copied that, and left without anyone realizing?

It could also be a relative or trusted resident. Again, it's all speculation at some stage and there is no use in doing any of it. The leaker is going to get sued, there will be public records and the truth will come out in due time. 

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I've not come across any spoilers yet. It's pretty easy to stay away from, if you're a little careful tbh. I don't know the content of these spoilers, but I'm sure the game will still be fun to play. I don't care if the story takes an unexpected turn or whatever the problem seems to be. It's The Last of Us afterall. I never expected a happy ending...

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On 5/1/2020 at 0:06 PM, Azaan60 said:

The dude who leaked Warzone got sued to hell and back by Activision. 

That's hilarious because every cod gets leaked every year

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14 hours ago, Stardroid said:

Snip*

Pretty bad comparison for several reasons. The leaker just made the material available on the internet, he forced no one to look at it, he did not go around dropping TLOU2 spoilers into random conversations about another game either, that was the doing of some disappointed former fans of the series. Also any anime is a free product for most people, I know I never paid a single thing for any anime series I watched due to them being available on the internet for free, so the only thing you lose if you run into something that sucks ass there is some of your free time, while TLOU2 takes a full triple A investment from you, which might have been a lot for some people given the current situation. There is usually no company heavily promoting the anime either, no one attempting to bait people into buying it and telling them to ignore any and all warnings about it that are out there and have proven to turn many people off of the product instantly, trying to use peoples phobia of getting spoiled to their advantage so they can peddle stuff they know most people will end up disliking.

 

Even if all of that would not be the case, I honestly do not care for spoilers that much, and others don't either as can be seen by the high number of people who watched the leaked footage, spoilers are stigmatised way too much. If you were to spoil UC4 for me, the game I am currently, very slowly playing and have not progressed in all that far yet, I'd not call you a hero because I already bought the damn thing so it is too late to save me money, but I would not really be mad either because in the end it does not change much of my experience with the game. If a story relies so heavily on shock value that its worthless if you see a spoiler for it, then it never was worth a damn to begin with. For me the leaker is definitely a hero, he saved so many people 60-80 depending on where they live, some people even more because they were about to buy the collectors edition, he exposed how the concept of spoilers can be used against the community if developers abuse it to sneak horrendous shit into their newest product. His actions will result in ND losing a ton of money, something they definitely deserve and hopefully will motivate them to get their shit together if they do not want to end up like other horrible companies that are on countless avoid lists, also it is another hilarious "get woke, go broke" chapter and I always get some satisfaction out of those, even if they hit a series I really liked.

 

Edited by Beyondthegrave07
Removed off topic discussion from quote
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6 minutes ago, Nighcisama said:

Pretty bad comparison for several reasons. The leaker just made the material available on the internet, he forced no one to look at it, he did not go around dropping TLOU2 spoilers into random conversations about another game either, that was the doing of some disappointed former fans of the series. Also any anime is a free product for most people, I know I never paid a single thing for any anime series I watched due to them being available on the internet for free, so the only thing you lose if you run into something that sucks ass there is some of your free time, while TLOU2 takes a full triple A investment from you, which might have been a lot for some people given the current situation. There is usually no company heavily promoting the anime either, no one attempting to bait people into buying it and telling them to ignore any and all warnings about it that are out there and have proven to turn many people off of the product instantly, trying to use peoples phobia of getting spoiled to their advantage so they can peddle stuff they know most people will end up disliking.

 

Even if all of that would not be the case, I honestly do not care for spoilers that much, and others don't either as can be seen by the high number of people who watched the leaked footage, spoilers are stigmatised way too much. If you were to spoil UC4 for me, the game I am currently, very slowly playing and have not progressed in all that far yet, I'd not call you a hero because I already bought the damn thing so it is too late to save me money, but I would not really be mad either because in the end it does not change much of my experience with the game. If a story relies so heavily on shock value that its worthless if you see a spoiler for it, then it never was worth a damn to begin with. For me the leaker is definitely a hero, he saved so many people 60-80 depending on where they live, some people even more because they were about to buy the collectors edition, he exposed how the concept of spoilers can be used against the community if developers abuse it to sneak horrendous shit into their newest product. His actions will result in ND losing a ton of money, something they definitely deserve and hopefully will motivate them to get their shit together if they do not want to end up like other horrible companies that are on countless avoid lists, also it is another hilarious "get woke, go broke" chapter and I always get some satisfaction out of those, even if they hit a series I really liked.

 

What a silly observation. The leaker made this material available on the internet, most certainly knowing full well that it would blow and and be all over the internet. Spoilers are everywhere, they are literally everywhere, even in Facebook cooking pages. Why are you dancing around the actual point I am making? The general notion that Undead Wolf put forward was this: 

 

- The game is SJW, he praised the leaker for exposing it saving him money. 

- He watched an anime show, I think that show is terrible, I leak him some plot details to save him some time so he can watch better shows. 

 

You don't have to put your own experience central. It does not matter if you don't care about spoilers, you disregard all the others that do. What a weird statement again to argue that because people watch the spoilers, they don't care about them. I know for myself that once I got spoiled just a little, I may as well go all the way and when I learnt that the release date it within a month I knew full well that I either had to shut down my internet for the whole month or just cave in. That doesn't mean that I don't think it absolutely sucks that the spoilers are out there? Come on man, that's such a weird statement, makes no sense. 

 

This hero of yours saved many people some cash and can potentially lead to Naughty Dog collapsing. Then you have a whole bunch of developers on the street. Not only this but it also seems to be affecting Sony and potential PS5 sales. Some hero right, putting a direct dent into the economical aspect of it all, putting other people their jobs at risk. You guys don't THINK. All you do it read stupid stuff on the internet and parrot it. There is, like always two sides to this coin. If you elevate the leaker to a hero you have no idea what you are talking about and you can only see what is ahead of you. 

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But our friend Redgrave is correct, I do seem to come back more than I should. I just can't stand the ignorance of some people it's crazy how much there has been this past week. So I will take this time to summarize, once more what my thoughts are and why people are silly willies. 

 

1. On the pettiness factor: The hypocrisy of people who think TLoU leaker is a hero, but some guy with a very similar motivation (according to "sources") is petty. This demonstrating that these people don't care about consistent arguments. They care more about the drama, being selective on what they like and what they don't. If it doesn't happen to them, it's cool. 

2. People don't realise that this "hero" has permanently damaged a company financially which may lead to people losing their job and it may also have an influence on next gen consoles. You know, the biggest leap in consoles ever, finally heading into the future. Yeah, think about the consequences of this leak. Read the internet. It's not far fetched to say people can lose jobs over this. Remember, many bonuses depended on how well the game also did. So there's that. Now people have made up their minds before playing the game. Who knows, it could have been different if people actually played the game before crying on the internet. 

 

3. This backlash may have some consequences for complete freedom of thought in video game development. You see a lot of people going crazy over the fact that there is a muscular woman or a gay character. Companies want to earn money. When you create an atmosphere where now everything that isn't the "norm" is seen as social justice warrior, you eliminate potential great ideas and story arcs that developers have in mind just for monetary gain. The DLC of TLoU1 has Ellie depicted with a love interest. Very well done DLC. If dumb people who see everything like this as SJW keep dominating the conversation, precious stuff like this may end up disappearing altogether, steering games towards uniform and safe story lines. Thanks for that, if it turns out to be the case. 

4. Just because a story is not going to way you want it to go, does not mean it's a bad story. And it most certainly doesn't mean it's a bad game. It's a sign of a strong mind to be able to entertain things that you don't necessarily like. I plan on playing the story in full even though I don't really like what I saw either. Why? Because the narrative can be very well executed. Gameplay can be great, music score can be awesome. I do not have enough information about this game to be sure it's bad, none of you do, so stop pretending you know it's going to be a bad game. Don't want to buy it? Cool. 

5. The motivation of the leaker is not known, it's speculation. So stop spreading information or arguments that you are certain Sony are lying or the other way around. This guy will get sued, and there should be public records. If the truth doesn't come out then, I'd be suspicious too. Until then, I keep my mouth shut before uttering absolute statements as if I really know what's going on in there. 

_______________


There, that's pretty much the gist of it again. Do note that out of all these statements that I made, almost none got directly addressed as people would rather focus on calling me petty, an elitist and what have you.

 

Edited by Stardroid
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53 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

What a silly observation. The leaker made this material available on the internet, most certainly knowing full well that it would blow and and be all over the internet. Spoilers are everywhere, they are literally everywhere, even in Facebook cooking pages. Why are you dancing around the actual point I am making? The general notion that Undead Wolf put forward was this: 

 

- The game is SJW, he praised the leaker for exposing it saving him money. 

- He watched an anime show, I think that show is terrible, I leak him some plot details to save him some time so he can watch better shows.

Mate, if you can't see the difference between making something available on the internet and throwing it right into peoples faces when it is not related to a topic thats being discussed at the time, then you are reaching VERY hard to keep defending this game and the studio behind it. The guy leaked it, he is not responsible for what people do with it, he just put it out there and now the internet does its thing, you don't blame journalists for what people do with leaked information either, or do you? I said several times that I am not a fan of people choosing the "in your face" approach to the spoilers and throwing them right in peoples faces, because at this point I am of the opinion that anyone stupid enough to go into this game blindly despite all the warnings, deserves the potential misfortune and loss of money that is likely to hit him, but blaming the guy who made the information available on the site for what some people do is just very stupid, and while I think some of your views are a bit questionable, I was not under the impression so far that you were stupid.

 

53 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

You don't have to put your own experience central. It does not matter if you don't care about spoilers, you disregard all the others that do. What a weird statement again to argue that because people watch the spoilers, they don't care about them. I know for myself that once I got spoiled just a little, I may as well go all the way and when I learnt that the release date it within a month I knew full well that I either had to shut down my internet for the whole month or just cave in. That doesn't mean that I don't think it absolutely sucks that the spoilers are out there? Come on man, that's such a weird statement, makes no sense.

There is freedom of choice for most. Whoever wants to avoid spoilers has some responsibility to at least not actively seek them out, or join discussions about them if they haven't seen them yet. You act like the very fact that they are available is already cruel towards those people who want to go in spoiler free, but if they can't resist the temptation of looking them up then it definitely did not matter to them that much. The few people who run into them despite trying to avoid them hard are unlucky, and I already said I do not support the people who throw them around where they do not belong, but blaming the guy who made them available is piss poor logic. Must be fun to blame all your own fuck ups on other people though, when in fact you most likely have no one to blame but yourself for the most part. I can make the claim that avoiding spoilers is pretty easy, I only started watching Game Of Thrones when it was like 5 seasons in, yet I only ever saw like 2 spoilers despite me not even actively avoiding them, I was just not interested that much, and that show was like several times more popular than an exclusive console game, I managed to avoid a whole lot of other spoilers for popular series and or movies, if I can do it with the most popular entertainment media in the world, why couldn't you do it for TLOU2?

 

The spoilers being out there are a good thing, it gives the majority of people the choice to either blindly trust Naughty Dog or check what the hell they intend to do with the series. Sometimes, if a game does not suck, spoilers can even be a good thing because some good shit leaking can create more interest in the game, or do you think The Witcher 3 would have suffered like this if some crucial story cutscenes made it onto the internet a month before release? If the game is bad, or disrespectful to the material however, then it turns out like it does for TLOU2.

 

Also, you put your own experience central much more than I do. You saw a little spoiler and instantly went "screw it, might as well spoil everything now", which once again proves to me that you either did not care much to begin with, or that the games appeal was mostly gone the very second one of the cheap shock value effects was revealed to you. Your reaction to it is blaming the guy who leaked the stuff to the internet in the first place, not the people who threw the spoiler in your face, yourself for spoiling the entirety of the game to yourself, or the studio that developed the stuff you admit you are not a fan of, and I think it is hilarious that you see nothing wrong with that approach. In fact, didn't you say before that the way to the spoilers and the presentation is the most important thing to you? Then why did it even matter that you saw the leaks, if they are of such low priority to you?

53 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

This hero of yours saved many people some cash and can potentially lead to Naughty Dog collapsing. Then you have a whole bunch of developers on the street. Not only this but it also seems to be affecting Sony and potential PS5 sales. Some hero right, putting a direct dent into the economical aspect of it all, putting other people their jobs at risk. You guys don't THINK. All you do it read stupid stuff on the internet and parrot it. There is, like always two sides to this coin. If you elevate the leaker to a hero you have no idea what you are talking about and you can only see what is ahead of you. 

Come on, you can't be this naive. As many people have already said, many casual customers will still buy this game regardless, many people will still buy it once it is cheaper, the chance of ND collapsing is therefore rather low, but even if it did this would be a good thing. This developer just ruined its most promising license to pander to feminazis like Anita, if you wanna blame anyone why not the people in charge? Or Anita encouraging them to insert financial poison into their formerly successful games? These feminists are getting all the pandering, they should be buying the game now and make up for all the people who were put off, right? Yet instead you blame the average people for not liking the spoilers, you basically condone that they originally would have paid good money to find out that they hate the narrative direction to the point that it would have made tem not buy the game in the first place, which is as anti consumer as it can get. If your game depends on most of the fans of the original game still buying it, maybe do not shit all over it to appeal to some small minority that rarely, if ever, financially supports a product in the first place, but I digress.

 

The point is, ND collapsing is unlikely, and even if they did it would not be a bad thing. You seem to forget that they crunch the shit out of their staff, they also avoid paying them their bonus, at least the lower staff, and if any of the leaks regarding the shitty work environment are true thats another reason not to work there, and I am inclined to believe them because the sheer number of people leaving ND in the last few years are a sign that theres truth to it. Also, Sony won't give a shit, or do you think all the money people would have spent for TLOU2 just disappears into a black hole? The absolute majority will put that money into other games, Ghost of Tsushima will have an increase in players for example, or the 60-80 saved for TLOU2 will be put into the next PS Store sale. You ignore common sense in your posts when it suits you, hell even the devs will be fine later down the line, game developers who worked at high profile studios do not have a hard time finding new jobs in the industry, which is why so many people fled ND over the years.

 

Last but not least, you seem to forget one very important detail. If the pandering to the new target audience for TLOU2 already looks like it will be a financial disaster for the studio, there is always the option to back out of it. They could make an announcement that they messed up, delay the game a few months further and promise to fix the shit and keep the sjw politics to a tolerable level. I would be the first to have a good giggle, but if they presented a much better product in a few months I'd be the one of the first to buy it. The Sonic movie was shit on by the internet after it revealed this atrocious first trailer, they vowed to improve it after most people voiced their dislike towards it, and then when it released in improved form it made a lot of money. Hell they could technically still fix it afterwards, if No Mans Sky can return from being one of the most hated games to a success story, then this can as well, at least if they do not take the Triple A approach of release it, fix some of the bugs, crap out some dlc and move on to next product.

 

 

Edit: Regarding your summarized points:

 

1. I already explained how you are comparing apples with oranges here, yet I will admit to some hypocrisy going on in some cases despite you, for some reason, not understanding the differences between what the leaker did and what you are doing in your attempt to prove a point.

 

2. So you could blame ND or Sony for it, but instead blame the leaker? This guy saved many of us, me included, the money for what would have been a VERY disappointing experience. Basically you say it would have been better if I had bought this game based on NDs formerly existing credibility and suffered for it to make the transition to the next gen better, in that case I say, screw you good sir. I already adressed the other points sufficiently, you seem to have a serious misunderstanding of how important this release was, and maybe some people need to lose their jobs for this mess, I know where I would start. You also ignore how much WORSE the backlash would have been if this had released and people bought it blindly, that would have been more likely for people to choose a boycott of the studio, or Sony, in future, at least for me.

 

3. People like what they like. If the in your face depiction of lesbians and super buff females is something they do not want to see, the devs have to make up their mind whether they prefer to include these things or want to go the safe route and make more money. Sneaking it in under peoples noses is NOT the way to go however, and I say it again, neither the way Senator Armstrong looks when swinging a golf club, nor Ellie being romantically involved with a girl, are the main problem here, but you know that already, its just a low hanging fruit for you at this point. Even if it was a big problem, I'd say if they just stopped imprinting this stuff into established series, people would be more welcoming of it, I'd actually consider buying a new license. In any case I prefer you being annoyed that these depictions are not financially viable over people having to buy it if they do not like it just so that you can feel better about yourself. I have some uncommon tastes in entertainment, but you do not see me demanding that people buy a game with it just so that devs put more of it into games.

 

4. There would have been many ways for me to be ok with some of the story developments I saw, but there is some bad writing and decision making going around, that much is easy to tell, you can see what motivated these developments, and I disagree with them. Also, people not buying is not ok for you, you made that clear in the very same summary, you'd prefer if people were tricked into buying it.

 

5. People are free to believe what they want. For me it looks like damage control, but I do not know it, neither do you, it is just easy to see why you'd believe them, and why I choose not to.

 

Edited by Nighcisama
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It's just PR. Sony are nervous. It's obvious. The development of TLoU 2 probably cost more than 100 million dollars and the overwhemlingly negative reception to the leaks could even damage PlayStation as a brand. I smell a PR disater for Sony as big as the E3 2013 nightmare on the Xbox side.

A crazed and red-pilled yuppie like Neil printman* should not be in charge of such massive games.

*

Spoiler

Druckmann is a German name and literally translates to printman.

 

Edited by Santa
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There is indeed a difference. One leak will reach millions of people and many will see it against their will and the one leak is a small bit of information on a series, on a forum that has a topic with tens of visitors. That's pretty crazy. I love how you keep dodging the point I am actually making though. First of all, the leaker is absolutely responsible for what people do with it. He is responsible for people purposefully leaking the information everywhere, just so people read it in places they do not expect spoilers. He must have known this. 


If a journalist puts a clickbait article online, detailed spoilers, he would get sacked for being unprofessional. The warnings surrounding this game are that it's Social Justice and there is some mean stuff going on. Whow, that is such a great deterrent. Perhaps though, you would not be under the impression that I am stupid if you actually read what I am saying. Because you still don't understand what the parallels are between my small leak and the huge leak and you focus on the one difference. 

 

The point about freedom of choice is moot. Spoilers on this scale in combination with a release date a month and a half away is a recipe for disaster and is bound to end up spoiling people regardless of their intentions. Few people running into them? Nice fallacy again purposefully downplaying something to suit your argument. It's not few people, it's a whole lot. Why could I not avoid spoilers for TLoU? Well some guy copy pasted a whole thing in a Tasty post on Facebook. Just because you did not get into contact with a lot of spoilers for GoT, doesn't mean that I have the same story. Also completely different thing to compare as GoT's spoiler culture is way less than what we see now with TLoU2, completely unprecedented, in fact. 

 

If spoilers being out there being a good thing so customers do not have to rely on blindly trusting ND, you will hold no objection if I spoil some things for you in the future. After all, I would hate for you to head into something blind. And after all, if something does not completely suck, these spoilers may end up enhancing your experience. I look forward to your thoughts in the future. 

 

Regardless of the casual customer buying this game, it will still suffer economically. You do realise these developers are paid bonusses depending on how well the game is received and how well it actually sells right? You see, if there were no leaks, people would head into this game and actually play it and then make up their minds. We could be seeing a completely different reaction. All this talk about feminazis and Anita is boring. There is 1.5 hours of footage available from a 20-30 hour campaign. I'm not going to be that clown that acts as if I know what the game is about in full. You again make the fallacy just because a game has SJW elements that it panders to a small minority. Must be painful to only see such a small scope of things. What about all the other things in this game that may pander to me? Great music, good gameplay, excellent character development, perhaps an awsesome trophy list? Nope, this game just panders to the minority. You're a walking hyperbole. 


That's the issue with people like you, putting the scope on one issue and then proclaiming an absolute without knowing what you are actually talking about. But you make everythnig sound to easy. Sure ND, why don't you just get rid of the muscular woman and the cult thing so people can be happy and delay your game again now? 

 

As for you adressing my earlier points, I'll keep it short. 

-The first point I already discussed in this post. The second points, I do not blame ND or Sony for the leaker, no.
-You again put your own experience central about money saved to your own preferences. So, again I ask you if it's cool I spoil you things that I think you will dislike

then to save you time and money? You again pretend as if you know the game, uttering stupid statements like "it would be worse if people went in blind". You don't know that, I don't know that, stop pretending you do. 
-The third point you again dance around the core of what I am saying, namely artistic freedom. 
-Bad writing? You have seen maybe 1/10th of the game, you have no idea in general is the game has bad writing, except for some questionable decision narrative wise, you do not know how it's executed. 
-I didn't say I believe ND, I said I don't know. 

 

@Nighcisama
 

Edited by Stardroid
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33 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

You again start with a false argument. The point that I made about spoilers was not me defending Naughty Dog in the slightest. Why can't you for the life of you put arguments forward that aren't complete fallacies? The spoilers are literally thrown into our faces everywhere. There are very few spaces on the internet that are actually safe from the spoilers. The ones people would usually visit at least. There is almost no difference at all and you still don't understand why I "leaked" a bit of information. 

 

1. It was done purposefully to get a reaction

2. Nobody asked for these spoilers

3. Just as this leaker as seen as spoiling to combat SJW stuff, I spoiled because I thought the series is bad. 

 

These are the only parallels I draw to make the justification. Argue with that instead of dancing around the point for crying out loud lmao. Maybe you wouldn't be under the impression that I was dumb if you actually learnt how to form proper argument instead of logical fallacies.

And why can't you seem to get it through your skull that the leaker is not responsible for some dumbfucks who spread it around in titles, or who pust spoiler thumbnails in every corner? You are blaming the wrong people here.

1. Weren't you one of those people always repeating that we do not know who spoiled it, or for what reason? You seem to be quick to change that stance if it is useful for you.

2. Wrong. There is always overly excited people who want spoilers because they do not want to wait until release, there are also people like me who increase their hype if a spoiler tells something amazing, and last but not least theres the uncertain crowd that makes its decision on reviews that contain spoilers later down the line and then make their purchase decision. If you had asked everyone remotely interested in TLOU2 the question of, "hey, wanna see some big spoilers?", there is no chance in hell no one would have jumped at the chance of seeing more of this game given Naughty Dogs, at the time, good reputation, yet that is what you claim, and that is very ignorant, almost like you can't fathom that people have different priorities than you.

3. Ima try to get it through your head one last time. The leaker provided new spoilers to something that was not yet out there, he made it available on the internet, his personal reasons are mostly speculation, people ended up saving a lot of money due to the information being new and game changing. You spoiled something that was already out and could therefore have been looked up by people who wanted to know about it, you threw it into someones face in a completely unrelated discussion, you did it out of pettiness in an attempt to prove a, very stupid, point, you have not saved anyone any money because the product you chose to spoil is available for free. If you can't see the difference between that, then there is something wrong with your head mate, not that I care too much about you spoiling someone, but the comparison is still beyond stupid. The fact that you think what you are providing here can be called an argument is, quite frankly, somewhat hilarious.

 

33 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

You have no understanding how people actually think it would seem. A lot of people were waiting for TLoU for years, eagerly waiting how it ends. So when you are presented with information that shows it, you do not have to act surprised if people cave in and look at them. That does not mean they don't care about spoilers, it means they care more about learning the conclusion of the story they waited so long for. Which is completely understandable.

Let me get this straight, people are hyped and have no self control so they look shit up despite that severely decreasing their enjoyment of it, and you blame the people who put spoilers online? That is the dumbest thing you have written so far. Listen, even if you do not want to blame peoples obvious lack of self control, you realize that reviewers usually get review copies of games WEEKS before that game is available to the public, right? Unless there is some scammy review embargo going on that forbids them from putting up reviews of the games they have been playing for weeks, this means that spoilers are available anyway, so you are against review copies too? Also, what if someones day 1 pre order gets delayed? Or if he has to work or is otherwise busy despite the game arriving? If he can't find it out for himself and looks up a spoiler, or if he is rummaging through the forum section of the game that people are already playing and discussion and ends up getting spoiled, it still not his own fault? Personal responsibility is a concept you should familiarize yourself with asap, because it might be understandable that they can't keep themselves from looking up the spoilers, but then the only person to blame is them, not anyone else. You sound like someone who blames companies producing unhealthy food because some people can't resist it and become fat in the long run.

 

33 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

Alright, if spoilers being out there is a good thing because if they don't suck, it may generate more interesting in the game, I too will sporadically spoil you on certain things. And I hope that I will either save you some time or you will get hyped even more for the crucial bits of information I am about to send your way. Is that cool?

I doubt you will get much of a chance for it, because if I play a game that puts a emphasis on its story, I already look up more than most people to know the thing they mainly sell themselves on is not something I find really annoying. Most of my games are more gameplay oriented, but if I am ever publically announcing that I am thinking about getting a game in future that has important story elements, you can send me in depth information you have about it to help me with my decision making, it will then either decrease my chance of buying it or increase it, simple as that, and I might even be thankful for it.

 

33 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

Even though ND collapsing is unlikely, it is still a risk of jobs and it will most certainly have an impact on the industry. Delaying it even more? Yes, they will rewrite the whole game now and delay it by a few month lmao. You literally have no idea what you are talking about mate. Just again clown talk about feminazis, AniTa SaRkeEsIaN. You also seem to be forgetting we are living in the middle of a crisis economically. EveN iF DeveLoPerS ArE LaYeD oFf TheY WilL bE FiNe. My God, your post just keeps on getting better. Please, stop fooling yourself. No Man's Sky redeemed itself through DLC expanding on a multiplayer world. This game for now (even though MP hinted) is primarily Single Player with a world that is already predetermined. Two completely different things.

Whatever impact is can have on the industry is positive in my book. I already told you that the money people were spending on it does not just disappear into a void, that money will go into the gaming industry one way or another because thats what it was put aside for, people committed time to that game already and if the game is no longer on the table, they mostly play something else. Delaying it more if it turns it from a flop into a success is worth it in the long run, it has been proven that listening to the people who buy your games is, and that might be shocking, generally a good idea. They have the choice to either put out a game thats likely to underperform badly, or to fix at least parts of it to soften the blow, both things have been done in the past so you do not have to act like I am proposing something insane here.

I am well aware of the crisis, which is another reason why I have little sympathy for a once trusted developer gambling with customers good faith this much, risking their most profitable license and knowingly giving people who rake over that much money a bad experience, because they knew very well how it would have been received. No mans Sky Expanded on everything, they could have just pumped out the next game but they stayed and turned a hated game into an award winner that raked in more cash than a new game would have been able to with their deserved reputation at the time, thats simple short term vs long therm thinking, not surprised its difficult for you to get that. I'd be on board for some TLOU2 dlc on top of them fixing their main game if thats what they are going for, but given the games current state I don't even want to have the main game for free, which do you think is better for them?

 

33 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

But as stated, you want to argue further? Send me a PM.

Ah well, haven't seen that until the whole reply was written.

 

35 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

There is indeed a difference. One leak will reach millions of people and many will see it against their will and the one leak is a small bit of information on a series, on a forum that has a topic with tens of visitors. That's pretty crazy. I love how you keep dodging the point I am actually making though. First of all, the leaker is absolutely responsible for what people do with it. He is responsible for people purposefully leaking the information everywhere, just so people read it in places they do not expect spoilers. He must have known this.

By that "logic", no one could post anything online because he'd be responsible for what people do with every bit of information, thats not how it works, you are living in a fantasy world. I do not dodge your point, I disagree with it because its absurd, I adressed it several times and you just repeating it does not suddenly make it better, its still nonsense.

 

35 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

If a journalist puts a clickbait article online, detailed spoilers, he would get sacked for being unprofessional. The warnings surrounding this game are that it's Social Justice and there is some mean stuff going on. Whow, that is such a great deterrent. Perhaps though, you would not be under the impression that I am stupid if you actually read what I am saying. Because you still don't understand what the parallels are between my small leak and the huge leak and you focus on the one difference.

You think journalists leaking stuff are getting called unprofessional? That is their job ffs, generate interest and clicks. Journalists getting information and putting them out there is common practice, from game details to how things work behind the scenes. You can't be this naive. Some studios or twats like Randy Pitchford may have called journalists unprofessional or acussed them of "bad journalism" after they found out and released information that were subject of an exclusive publication deal with another journalist in the past, but thats about it, you are on the side of people like Randy Pitchford with that mentality, let that sink in for a second.

 

35 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

The point about freedom of choice is moot. Spoilers on this scale in combination with a release date a month and a half away is a recipe for disaster and is bound to end up spoiling people regardless of their intentions. Few people running into them? Nice fallacy again purposefully downplaying something to suit your argument. It's not few people, it's a whole lot. Why could I not avoid spoilers for TLoU? Well some guy copy pasted a whole thing in a Tasty post on Facebook. Just because you did not get into contact with a lot of spoilers for GoT, doesn't mean that I have the same story. Also completely different thing to compare as GoT's spoiler culture is way less than what we see now with TLoU2, completely unprecedented, in fact.

I have run into one spoiler for the game that would have been unavoidable for me, and it was on this site when one player made an update with a blatant spoiler in it that was immediately readable in the first line. That would have been my own fault for joining a gaming forum 2-3 days after these massive leaks, if you can't stay off gaming related sites for a few days until the discussion has cooled down, then we are again at the point where I say that you obviously did not care about it in the first place. I know people who have cleared their youtube search history of gaming to not have TLOU2 stuff appear randomly for them, they do not join gaming forums for a while, they will be fine, I haven't even seen a post about this on the social media site I am still using. You spoiled it for yourself entirely and want to blame other people for talking about it, you have no concept of personal responsibility.

Also, GOT spoiler culture is LESS? You have just proven that you have no idea, yet still post your opinion on things. The amount of spoilers from book readers was LEGENDARY in the first few years of this series, I saw so much outrage because someone got spoiled on character deaths, yet plenty of people made it through several years without most getting spoiled for them, yet you can't manage that a few weeks for a product thats, in comparison, pathetically unpopular when compared to a worldwide frenzy? You just love to blame other people, ever thought about stopping when you, by chance, saw a title that starts with words like TLOU2, or JOEL, or ELLIE? Seems too much to ask of you.

 

48 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

If spoilers being out there being a good thing so customers do not have to rely on blindly trusting ND, you will hold no objection if I spoil some things for you in the future. After all, I would hate for you to head into something blind. And after all, if something does not completely suck, these spoilers may end up enhancing your experience. I look forward to your thoughts in the future.

I already told you, you are free to try and spoil things for me if I ever utter any interest in getting a new game. Send it per pm or post it on the status update I am making in that regard, I then have the free will to decide whether I want to read it or just delete it, you can even post it as offtopic in another topic because by now you have proven that you are unable to understand the difference between the two. I highly doubt you will ever tell me something I do not already know, but even if you do, it is highly unlikely for you to ruin my experience with the game, I might even be thankful if I say "Interested in buying game x" and whatever you say ends with me deciding that game x is probably not for me, so I buy something that suits me better. Threat me with a good time, ai?

 

51 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

Regardless of the casual customer buying this game, it will still suffer economically. You do realise these developers are paid bonusses depending on how well the game is received and how well it actually sells right? You see, if there were no leaks, people would head into this game and actually play it and then make up their minds. We could be seeing a completely different reaction. All this talk about feminazis and Anita is boring. There is 1.5 hours of footage available from a 20-30 hour campaign. I'm not going to be that clown that acts as if I know what the game is about in full. You again make the fallacy just because a game has SJW elements that it panders to a small minority. Must be painful to only see such a small scope of things. What about all the other things in this game that may pander to me? Great music, good gameplay, excellent character development, perhaps an awsesome trophy list? Nope, this game just panders to the minority. You're a walking hyperbole.

Yeah I know about the bonus, I also know that the devs wanted their bonus to get paid early, you know, like Druckmann getting his bonus early. If that is denied I am more mad at ND for using such a scammy system to begin with and not delivering on it, because even if the game performed well it would not have been

guaranteed that they kept their word, as Randy Pitchfords latest scam of his employees has proven, so you are once again mad at the wrong people.

Also you are once again presenting potentially hundreds of thousands of people going into a game and having a bad experience as a GOOD thing, like thats how it should be, you are such a ND fanboy you rather blame the fans for not buying this supposed shitpile of a game than to blame ND for making a game that will likely end up making so many people turn their backs on TLOU license or even ND as a whole.

If the game has things that pander to you, you are free to buy it, but do not give me shit for not buying it and try acting like me stating why I won't buy it is wrong. If the leaked major plot points and creative decisions, that are basically unjustifiable to me, put me off from buying the game thats none of your business, if what you like is appalling to the majority and the game therefore flops thats too bad for you, but i won't buy the game just so that you may have more of that stuff there in future, I am not responsible for you. You really act like I am physically stopping you from playing the game, its almost adorable. Play it, I hope you have fun with it, but i sure as hell won't support this crap because it had several deal breakers for me in the leaked footage alone, I can only imagine how much worse the game will be, but trusted reviewers will tell me.

 

1 hour ago, Stardroid said:

That's the issue with people like you, putting the scope on one issue and then proclaiming an absolute without knowing what you are actually talking about. But you make everythnig sound to easy. Sure ND, why don't you just get rid of the muscular woman and the cult thing so people can be happy and delay your game again now?

Sorry that I have some standards. And I know what I am talking about, I saw key moments of the story, I liked ZERO of these moments so whatever journey they have on the way won't save it for me, and the gameplay did not look incredibly original for someone who has played his share of ND games either, but even if it was it would not make up for what I have seen, I buy TLOU for the story more than for the gameplay. You are basically implying that I do not know myself well enough to make the decision of not buying the game based on what I have seen. And once again, the woman in this game could look like Ronnie Colman on a stage performing day and it would still not be anywhere near the most important problem most people have with this game, or do you think if David from TLOU1 had a son who would get that characters part in the game it would be in a better spot with the fans right now? Focussing on the wrong things seems like your biggest character trait at this point.

 

1 hour ago, Stardroid said:

As for you adressing my earlier points, I'll keep it short. 

-The first point I already discussed in this post. The second points, I do not blame ND or Sony for the leaker, no.
-You again put your own experience central about money saved to your own preferences. So, again I ask you if it's cool I spoil you things that I think you will dislike then to save you time and money? You again pretend as if you know the game, uttering stupid statements like "it would be worse if people went in blind". You don't know that, I don't know that, stop pretending you do. 
-The third point you again dance around the core of what I am saying, namely artistic freedom. 
-Bad writing? You have seen maybe 1/10th of the game, you have no idea in general is the game has bad writing, except for some questionable decision narrative wise, you do not know how it's executed. 
-I didn't say I believe ND, I said I don't know. 

 

@Nighcisama
 

- So you do not blame the ones who created the situation that made people mad? You are angry that people are mad NOW instead of LATER after they BOUGHT their right to be mad from ND? Glad that we could clear this up.

- I already told you several times that you are free to do it. I can decide whether I want to see the spoilers after all, so if you see me saying that I think about buying game x, chime in if you want and make my decision easier, either encourage my purchase or discourage it with the spoiler so I get another game, and if I do not want any spoilers I will stop in time when I see something that potentially spoils things, or at the very least I will not act like you and read the entire spoiler message only to then act all pissy against the evil people who dare to leak infos. And yes I do know that it would be worse, you see how angry some people get about this NOW, imagine how mad they would have gotten if they PAID full price, review bombing would have been the least of NDs problem I can tell you that much.

- Sure, they have the freedom to put whatever they want into the game, and I have the freedom to not buy it and to tell other people (and I have tried to do that so far without direct big spoilers) why I am not buying it. Not sure what your issue with this situation is, well aside from ND getting a deserved loss in income for the stunt they tried to pull, that obviously does not sit well with you.

- If I can see all the important plot points in this game screaming bad writing, the narrative decisions making me facepalm and the big plot direction in general being one of the most unoriginal ones in media history that even makes the first games general plot idea seem original, then I can make an educated guess that this game will not be for me. Buy it if you want, you have proven to not have any standards, but I won't pay money for it unless they fix most of the shit I have seen, I have plenty of other things to play.

- You have so far demonstrated an insane amount of ND famboyism, it has gone so far that you are more mad at the leakers for discovering and leaking the plot that has people so mad than to be mad at the people who developed the plot. You are mad at the leaker that Nd will lose money because of the leaks, not mad at ND for making something that will lead to losing money and faith from the fans. Your stance on this matter is terribly obvious, and its pretty pathetic if you ask me.

 

 

Edited by Nighcisama
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56 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

I do not have enough information about this game to be sure it's bad, none of you do, so stop pretending you know it's going to be a bad game.

This is one of the only things I've read on this thread that makes sense. Ideally we'd all just leave it there. Apparently not, sadly enough.

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1 hour ago, Nighcisama said:

Snip

 

 

Time to address some things again. Nowhere did I make the claim that the leaker is responsible in full for other individuals further leaking that information. Both of these parties should not be absolved of what they are doing. Both of which are wrong. You are making an argument out of something you didn't read, from a lack of information, because I think that these people are to blame too (the thumbnail guys, people posting things in unrelated topics ...)

 

I don't understand why you have to dissect people and spoilers like that. What makes you think I am unaware of people reacting differently to spoilers. I am not ignorant to the fact that some people don't want them, some do. So, that's pretty much another strawman argument. I am fully aware of this fact and I have never claimed what you said to not be true. 

 

On the topic of the "leak" that I posted. You keep being riled up and trying to put it through that skull of mine, but you keep ignoring what I am actually saying. First, I said I didn't do it to save him some money, but some time. A reasonable parallel. Second, the fact that the show is released and TLoU isn't, does not have a single thing to do with the argument made. The fact that one is priced and the anime isn't, again has nothing to do with the point I am making. Yet you repeated this twice even though I already told you this twice. You can dance around the point all you want, it doesn't change anything. The only parallels I drew were: 

 

- Being the victim of a spoiler as a result of one guy leaking footage in an unrelated topic (which also happened to me)

- Counting the logic that putting these spoilers are there is absolutely a good thing in all circumstances and he should be treated as a hero

   -> This is done by demonstrating the point that by putting this information out there and people building upon it, me getting spoiled may not feel like I was saved from spending some cash. Just as our dear friend may not feel like I was saving him some time to what could be seen as a good show to him. 

 

All else is completely irrelevant. Price, time of leak, it has nothing to do with what I am arguing. So again, please stop focusing on the differences that hold no bearing on my action. It changes nothing. You just focus on them to "prove" a point by trying to convince me and other people that these differences matter. They don't. 

 

______________________________________

 

On the topic of self control. People who spoil themselves are not allowed to complain about being spoiled, I will never disagree with that. What I am saying though is that this information should not be out there in the first place and I can understand that there are people out there who could not control their own hype and looked up the spoilers. It's on them, sure, but I don't blame them for **Wanting** to see them and giving in. But, I they can't complain about being spoiled intrinsically. So no, I am not against review copies and I love this little lecture of yours on personal responsibility which you base again on information you lack instead of information you possess. Kind of like everyone else who comes in here with absolute statements like "the game will be bad" or "it's a SJW manifesto" or "Anita clearly has her claws in this game". 

 

______________________________________

 

Yes, the money not spent on TLoU2 will most likely end up elsewhere like Ghost of Fukushima. What I do not agree with is your perception of ND taking a gamble during the Covid-19 crisis. The game has been in development for years, Covid 19 consequences have been around for two months. What I do believe though is that if they did make this game a full blown SJW manifest with some guilt tripping, then yes, they did take that gamble and I will be the first one to call them out on their bullshit. However, I don't think a gay character or a muscular woman or a certain cult is full blown SJW. I am completely fine with any of these things. 

 

But, I Dont Know. We have access to 1.5 hours of footage from a 20-30 hour game. I will wait and see. I don't think our vision on this is all that different. Just stop basing your arguments on the information you lack. 

 

@Nighcisama Notification to let you know I changed some things as we seem to be going back and forward between edits. 

Edited by Stardroid
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1 hour ago, Santa said:

 

  Hide contents

Druckmann is a German name and literally translates to printman.

 

Spoiler

The word "Druck" could also be translated with "stress", or "pressure", which I think is even funnier given the current situation.

 

34 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

Yes, I still hold onto the stance that we don't know why it was spoiled. I used the reason other people think why he did it. Stop straw-manning me. 
Again a logical fallacy. I've stated multiple times that people react different to spoilers and carefully using a language as in "some". I never spoke in absolutes, so you are once again straw-manning me into something I didn't say.

You said, and I quote: "Nobody asked for the spoilers". Sounds like an absolute statement to me. You edited it by now, but I still have it in one of my quotes of your reply. Is this the level we have to scoop to now? You editing things you wrote and then claiming "Well I never said that" just to then accuse me of strawmanning? Sorry if I view this as a sign that you are either very confused or slowly realizing that you are not making too much sense at times.

 

37 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

The fact that spoilers were not out there yet again, has no bearing on the actual argument that I made as it's not part of the parallel that I draw. Are you being serious?

 

And who says exactly that hyped people looking up spoilers decrease their enjoyment? You literally just stated that sometimes it enhances it, right? Another logical fallacy you make is that you pretend I don't put blame on people with no self control. Never, anywhere did I state that these people hold no responsibility. If you actively look up spoilers, you don't get to be upset that you're spoiled. It's just another classical example of you making up stuff to put forward an argument just for the sake of it. 
Like, I don't know if you are purposefully misrepresenting me, or you are not reading what I am saying. What if I told you that I think both the leaker and people who actively look up spoilers are responsible for being spoiled. Shocking!

Now you are just blatantly lying. I am too lazy to see if you have edited out that part from one of your replies as well, I adressed your nonsensical points several times and you flip flopping around on them now will not make you look any better. And yes I said it can enhance the enjoyment if something great leaks that will increase the hype instead of killing it, I stand by that, you should try the same with the hilarious fail points you made so far, because among other things, you literally said that just putting spoilers onto the internet before release is a big NO because excited people can't help themselves and will look it up, you blamed that on the leaker, not the people with no self control. I am not misrepresenting you, but you seem to have scooped to outright denying shit you wrote, seemingly forgetting that some of the things you deleted are still visible in some quotes, and if this is the direction we are heading it stops being worth discussion with you alltogether, because then the annoyances of having to keep track of what you edited out just to deny it becomes bigger than the amusement I get from seeing you try and shift any blame away from ND as if your life depended on that studio not taking a deserved hit this time around.

 

43 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

The argument about money being poored into the gaming industry is correct. Finally something we can agree on, what is not spent on TLoU2 will now most likely flow into Ghost of Tsukushima. Your point about gambling is nonsense though since the outbreak is 3 months old, the game has been in development for years. Please, that's just a terrible argument. It's not as if ND could predict this outbreak. But let me say this

 

If it does end up being true, that this game is a full blown SJW manifesto with clear guilt tripping, I will be the first in line to stand with you and put some shame on ND. But as stated multiple times before, I don't know. We have seen a small potion of the game. I don't know if it will in fact be as terrible as you would make me believe, and as many others want to.

So if you agree with me that the money is going into Ghost Of Tsushima among other games, most likely other PS games, then what was all that apocalyptic "ND might die, Sony might suffer, the next console generation might be affected severely" stuff about if you don't mind me asking?

What ND did was a gamble, they can't be so stupid as to not realize what this game would do to most peoples opinion of the studio, they gambled on collecting virtue points and maybe appeal to a new audience, not caring that they'd be pushing a lot of their current audience away as a trade off. The crisis only made this gamble that much dumber is what I was trying to say.

Well I will check on that, I already went on record saying that if they, somehow, manage to deliver something so amazing that I agree with the, in my opinion, terrible decisions they made with characters and narrative so far, then I would admit that I was overreacting and buy the game later down the line. I said it before, I do not want this game to suck, I loved the first game after all, but to me everything points in the wrong direction so I am bracing myself to not buy the game if this is how it looks. We will know exactly how good or bad it is in june, until then I doubt we will be able to agree on much of anything.

 

49 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

Ultimately, I don't think we are too different on this topic at all, maybe it's because there are things unsaid that give you the impression I think a certain way. 

You know, I thought so too before your latest few replies, we respectfully agreed to disagree and that would have been it. Your latest replies had, in my opinion, nonsensical comparisons in it, terrible arguments, anti consumer thinking I would not even expect from most CEOs of big companies, and weird priorities when it came to who should get most of the blame. I did not even want to rejoin this discussion originally until new information was appearing, simply because I thought most points had been beaten to death several times over by now, but I did it when I saw your replies. Guess we both have the bad tendency to rejoin discussions even though we claimed we were done with it😅

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Please, do not pretend I am editing posts after you reply, I never did that and you can check the timestamps. Agreed with the absolute statement that "nobody asked for spoilers" is wrong on my end. 

I did not edit anything of importance at all with regards to my original argument, and especially not after you replied. Always before it. You are again mirespresenting my points though. I advise you to look up the latest thing I edited because I had since you edits more stuff on top of it. Those are my final thoughts. @Nighcisama

 

Also an ND fanboy? Tlou is literally the only game I ever played from them lmfao

Edited by Stardroid
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Some of you should stop white knighting a company that uses Nazi methods to silence people. They've shown their true face in last couple of days. Morally rotten to the core. Fuck Sony! Fuck Naughty Dog! Keep your shoddy products and shove 'em up yer arse until yer sphincter cracks!

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Just now, Santa said:

Some of you should stop white knighting a company that uses Nazi methods to silence people. They've shown their true face in last couple of days. Morally rotten to the core. Fuck Sony! Fuck Naughty Dog! Keep your shoddy products and shove 'em up yer arse until yer sphincter cracks!

And this is again exactly the kind of clown I am talking about. Nazi methods to silence people lmao. Come on man. 

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Just now, Stardroid said:

And this is again exactly the kind of clown I am talking about. Nazi methods to silence people lmao. Come on man. 

Dude, I'm from Germany. Don't lecture me about Nazi related stuff. This will backfire badly!

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4 minutes ago, Stardroid said:

Please, do not pretend I am editing posts after you reply, I never did that and you can check the timestamps. Agreed with the absolute statement that "nobody asked for spoilers" is wrong on my end. 

I did not edit anything of importance at all with regards to my original argument, and especially not after you replied. Always before it. You are again mirespresenting my points though. I advise you to look up the latest thing I edited because I had since you edits more stuff on top of it. Those are my final thoughts. @Nighcisama

I have admittedly not checked and compared your entire new replies to the old ones, nor will I. I can't be bothered to double or triple check things you write from now on, especially not if one of your newest claim directly contradicted what you wrote before, this discussion was complicated enough already, and at this rate we end up with a truly convoluted mess. We disagree on pretty much everything anyway and can't seem to change the others mind, so its probably better we avoid quoting or replying to each other from this point on.

 

3 minutes ago, Santa said:

Some of you should stop white knighting a company that uses Nazi methods to silence people. They've shown their true face in last couple of days. Morally rotten to the core. Fuck Sony! Fuck Naughty Dog! Keep your shoddy products and shove 'em up yer arse until yer sphincter cracks!

Now I agree that NDs methods towards journalists, youtubers and pretty much anyone were absolutely atrocious these past few days, which is another reason why that company can fuck off for all I care, but "Nazi methods"? Let's not go too far here, theres still plenty of room before it gets even close to that stage. Censoring and attempting to suppress free speech by abusing the system? Yes, but still, there are more fitting comparisons to be made.

Edited by Nighcisama
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4 minutes ago, Nighcisama said:

I have admittedly not checked and compared your entire new replies to the old ones, nor will I. I can't be bothered to double or triple check things you write from now on, especially not if one of your newest claim directly contradicted what you wrote before, this discussion was complicated enough already, and at this rate we end up with a truly convoluted mess. We disagree on pretty much everything anyway and can't seem to change the others mind, so its probably better we avoid quoting or replying to each other from this point on.

 

That's the thing though, I actually think we do agree on quite some things. I have done my best in my latest reply which I did edit as I had to go back to your last edit to make more sense. But my last one summarizes pretty much everything that was said and in some cases, stuff that wasn't. 
But no, I do not edit posts to suit myself and I do not change my arguments either. They have always been the same. 

Edited by Stardroid
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