(Discussion)should you get flagged for late syncs?

[charxsetsuna]

23 minutes ago, DomDeMann said:

I saw something odd on Psntrophyleaders yesterday where a player became #1 on the leaderboard and all of this accounts platinums said they were completeled in just of couple of minutes and some even seconds. I assumed this was all a hack or something. Could this be a case of late syncing/ hidden trophies? 

No that's just a cheater, plain and simple. 

5 hours ago, B1rvine said:

 

 

 

Now that things have calmed a bit...

 

The point is, the community can't have it both ways. Should the community even decide? As PSNP has no defined measurement of "using CFW" in the rules, other than not to use it, no flag is enforceable due to loop holes that are always "naturally possible." This debate is about closing loop holes with clearer and spelled out rules. 

 

Rules are rules, and perfection is based on opinion. Rules should be "perfectly clear" however. The other big misconception here noted by your first response; PSNProfiles is not dictating how you sync or use your profile, rather it can choose what's eligible for its leaderboard, possibly including how you sync. There's a difference. Technically, it already dictates how you sync, since you're not allowed to transfer your own save file and sync on a second console and create impossible timestamps. 

 

So, the dispute in question is justified in being lifted.

 

As far as my mention of CRT members "not caring", I was referring to their stance on this debate, not their competence or commitment to handling things. MMDE thinks clearer rules aren't better, I'm of the opposite opinion, Grimy doesn't care one way or another, and Squirl understands the merits either way. (We all do.)

 

 

Not exactly. Gionascm2 pushes every rule to the limits, and has already committed actionable offenses to remove him completely. He's just taking advantage of the three flag rule that was designed for completely different purposes, and he knows it. If you want to discuss other profiles, please point them out. I'm not perfect, but my guess is you're likely going to point to things that are more debatable/controversial on if it meets flaggable criteria due to loopholes, or something where you don't have all the information -vs- than what's actually wrong. Which, is what this thread's about.

 

 

Well, there hasn't been any answer on what should be definable CFW usage yet, and until there is, the community shouldn't yell foul if people purposely imitate / exploit that lack of a definition.

 

Edit : I also realize the community may not know what CFW side effects are, which complicates things, but enforcing stricter leaderboards can make our job easier, close some loop holes, clearly define things, and increase integrity. Yes, a downside is you have to follow a few extra rules "if you want to participate."

 

I'll refer to speedrun.com again : (in some games) They're required to record their entire run, with TV and console in view, then show their controllers, while attaching a heart rate monitor to measure their anxiety, show their in game settings at some point, doing silly things after their runs to prove its not a video, only then to have it analyzed by some mod to check the number of frames... I'm not suggesting anything like this, but you don't hear those people complaining "OMG YOU CANT TELL ME HOW TO SPEEDRUN MY GAME" since they understand the merits of being as legitimate, accurate, and thorough as possible.

 

All I'm asking for is to get slightly more defined and clear rules that close a loop hole, and I won't apologize for discussing possible ways to make PSNP (in my opinion) a better place with more accurate leaderboards.

 

 

I have watched speedruns for many years but I have never even heard of any rules requiring heartrate monitors. It wouldnt even work anyways, some people are just naturally calm so wouldnt have too high of a heart rate.

 

Can you please tell me what game has that rule? might be a interesting speedrun to watch if it's that intense 

Edited May 28, 2020 by charxsetsuna

[danceswithsloths]

Yeah, the discussion was originally about whether late-syncing brand new trophies is flaggable without any other evidence of hacking.

 

Overwriting clearly hacked timestamps and claiming it is a late sync is not the same thing. The original hacked timestamps obviously fall under 'other evidence' but hey, why care about that when being petty and spiteful is so much more useful? What an incredibly childish response.

Edited May 28, 2020 by danceswithsloths

[charxsetsuna]

8 minutes ago, danceswithsloths said:

Yeah, the discussion was originally about whether syncing brand new trophies is flaggable without any other evidence of hacking.

 

Overwriting clearly hacked timestamps and claiming it is a late sync is not the same thing. The original hacked timestamps obviously fall under 'other evidence' but hey, why care about that when being petty and spiteful is so much more useful? What an incredibly childish response.

Who changed the topic in the first place because I know it wasnt me.

[Arcesius]

20 minutes ago, danceswithsloths said:

Yeah, the discussion was originally about whether syncing brand new trophies is flaggable without any other evidence of hacking.

 

11 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Who changed the topic in the first place because I know it wasnt me.

 

That's the problem though. This topic was started with a generic Yes/No Poll and no explanation whatsoever. No context about what it means to "sync late", no reference to latest cases of this happening, no real argument from the OP. 

 

Of course people are going to read the title and write their opinion, but there is no way to ensure that they are all discussing about the same thing. This is not how a discussion should be started, at least not in my opinion. 

 

The result? 12 pages of people discussing, not even knowing about what exactly, and CRT members being accused of wrongly flagging people WHEN THERE HAS BEEN ONE CASE OF THIS HAPPENING (not the "wrong part", the "late sync part", and I don't even know what the outcome of that dispute was to be honest). 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Arcesius

[danceswithsloths]

Just now, Arcesius said:

 

 

That's the problem though. This topic was started with a generic Yes/No Poll and no explanation whatsoever. No context about what it means to "sync late", no reference to latest cases of this happening, no real argument from the OP. 

 

Of course people are going to read the title and write their opinion, but there is no way to ensure that they are all discussing about the same thing. This is not how a discussion should be started, at least not in my opinion. 

 

The result? 12 pages of people discussing, not even knowing about what exactly, and CRT members being accused of wrongly flagging people WHEN THERE HAS BEEN ONE CASE OF THIS HAPPENING (and I don't even know what the outcome of that dispute was to be honest). 

If you scroll back over these comments I see a very large amount amount of them saying some variation of:

 

'Late-sync on it's own, without any other evidence of hacking, should not be flaggable'

 

So I feel like most people figured it out pretty easily honestly.

 

[charxsetsuna]

2 minutes ago, Arcesius said:

 

 

That's the problem though. This topic was started with a generic Yes/No Poll and no explanation whatsoever. No context about what it means to "sync late", no reference to latest cases of this happening, no real argument from the OP. 

 

Of course people are going to read the title and write their opinion, but there is no way to ensure that they are all discussing about the same thing. This is not how a discussion should be started, at least not in my opinion. 

 

The result? 12 pages of people discussing, not even knowing about what exactly, and CRT members being accused of wrongly flagging people WHEN THERE HAS BEEN ONE CASE OF THIS HAPPENING (not the "wrong part", the "late sync part", and I don't even know what the outcome of that dispute was to be honest). 

Read the first page and a half of this thread, everyone was talking about late syncing brand new trophies. There was no confusion about what this was about.

[ihadalifeb4this]

20 hours ago, PrimitiveRetro said:

 

 

 

Ok let's say I am at 97% in my game right now.

Missing only 1 trophy and platinum.

I hack it and edit the time and make it look like a proper timestamp.all other trophies are proper timestamp and proper order.

How the hell do you find out i hacked it?

I have 45/47 right now.

I even have marvel 3  vanilla platinum so I could argue I got good and managed to do 480 missions .

Catch my drift?

 

 

20 hours ago, MichMasteR said:

 

You can't argue anymore cause you are admitting you can't do it legit and that if you get it, it would had been hacked, you are just admitting the crime before it happens

 

Actually it could easily be argued whole statement was purely hypothetical and because of that can't be used as proof for flag. Just because someone sees that comment as a fact doesn't prove anything.

 

This is actually good example of attitude in disputes. Everything that makes you look guilty, must mean you are guilt. When i say this i'm talking about majority of random people that drop in and not CRT. When i was following disputes i didn't agree with every decision, but i still believed CRT was trying to do the best they can. However, i'm not following disputes for a while so maybe things changed for the better. In that case my statement is based on outdated experience and it should be taken as that.

 

As for topic itself i see this as someone elses problem and it will hopefully stay that way. I truly hope we won't have any honest gamers ending up permanently flagged over this.

 

  

[Arcesius]

Just now, charxsetsuna said:

Read the first page and a half of this thread, everyone was talking about late syncing brand new trophies. There was no confusion about what this was about.

 

I have been reading the entire thread since yesterday evening. The first page and a half is a small part of the meanwhile 12 page long discussion. If you start a thread like this because you want to continue a discussion about a specific flag-case, then the least I would expect is that you would, as the OP, put everything in context. Not everyone reads the Dispute Threads. 

 

[hittheroadbucky]

1 minute ago, ihadalifeb4this said:

 

 

Actually it could easily be argued whole statement was purely hypothetical and because of that can't be used as proof for flag. Just because someone sees that comment as a fact doesn't prove anything.

 

This is actually good example of attitude in disputes. Everything that makes you look guilty, must mean you are guilt. When i say this i'm talking about majority of random people that drop in and not CRT. When i was following disputes i didn't agree with every decision, but i still believed CRT was trying to do the best they can. However, i'm not following disputes for a while so maybe things changed for the better. In that case my statement is based on outdated experience and it should be taken as that.

 

As for topic itself i see this as someone elses problem and it will hopefully stay that way. I truly hope we won't have any honest gamers ending up permanently flagged over this.

 

  

Tbh I think it was a hypothetical that person didn’t have two vanilla marvel plats and their two versions of that one game the highest completion was 9%. Unless they have a second account of course 

[charxsetsuna]

2 minutes ago, ihadalifeb4this said:

 

 

Actually it could easily be argued whole statement was purely hypothetical and because of that can't be used as proof for flag. Just because someone sees that comment as a fact doesn't prove anything.

 

This is actually good example of attitude in disputes. Everything that makes you look guilty, must mean you are guilt. When i say this i'm talking about majority of random people that drop in and not CRT. When i was following disputes i didn't agree with every decision, but i still believed CRT was trying to do the best they can. However, i'm not following disputes for a while so maybe things changed for the better. In that case my statement is based on outdated experience and it should be taken as that.

 

As for topic itself i see this as someone elses problem and it will hopefully stay that way. I truly hope we won't have any honest gamers ending up permanently flagged over this.

 

  

Yeah I was wondering if he was just giving a example or actually confessing to it. I dont believe that post should be used as solid evidence if he does get flagged but it doesnt help his case. 

1 minute ago, Arcesius said:

 

I have been reading the entire thread since yesterday evening. The first page and a half is a small part of the meanwhile 12 page long discussion. If you start a thread like this because you want to continue a discussion about a specific flag-case, then the least I would expect is that you would, as the OP, put everything in context. Not everyone reads the Dispute Threads. 

 

I started it to have a conversation about a rule based on a dispute . 

Anyways what kind of leap would it take to translate "late syncing" as "overriding timestamps" if I meant overriding timestamps I would have said overriding timestamps. 99% of people knew it was about late syncing new trophies even after the first 2 pages, why should I be responsible for the 1%?

[AJ_Radio]

And just like that, a controversial topic is being shot down by elitist trophy hunters on this website and people who CANNOT let go of old PS3 games with long dead servers.

 

You guys need to take a fucking chill pill, because I can't think of more nonsensical horseshit than this discussion taking place in this thread right now. I'm thinking of becoming less active on these forums, because the general attitude in regards to trophies in general, particularly late syncs getting a possible flag has really taken a turn for the worse.

 

A good number of nice people have left this website. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why.

[Arcesius]

28 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

I started it to have a conversation about a rule based on a dispute . 

 

Exactly. But the rule is not and has never been that "late syncing leads to being flagged". That's not what happened in said dispute which, again, you didn't even bother referring to. However, without context and by just reading the initial post and seeing the poll, the discussion soon lead to CRT members being attacked for wrongfully approving flags just for "syncinc late", when, first of all, this really is not something that happens on a regular basis, and secondly, in the dispute itself, the discussion was more about how to detect CFW usage and mimicking CFW.  

 

I usually don't read Disputes, but in this case went digging for that one case. Other people I'm sure don't go there, and hence they cannot know what they are discussing about. Most people don't read through multiple pages of a new thread, but at least most refer to the initial post to get the information they need to make a contribution. 

 

Anyways, this is going too much off topic. Please continue. 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Arcesius

[breakXedge]

Late syncing: should never be flagged by default. If I take my Mashini Isso (or whatever it's called, https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/633-まいにちいっしょ/breakXedge), that I know it's impossible as today, the CRT MUST prove that I hacked, and not me proving I've not. I can easily have another PS3 lost in my parents and just synced the game. Or I can use CFW to do so. If you can't prove someone is guilty, you shouldn't flag him. As I stated before, I had 4 vita games 6 months platted and not synced, and that's not a crime. I hope.

 

Override timestamps: I think it's more difficult, but we're in the same boat. I can sync the same legit trophy today and 2 years from now. How can I prove I did it legit? I shouldn't, the CRT should prove that. Anyway, that's not the point of the thread.

 

That's my opinion.

[danceswithsloths]

1 hour ago, Arcesius said:

 

this really is not something that happens on a regular basis, 

I have had late-synced trophies 2-3 times in the last 4 years. May not be very regular in your opinion, but it's regular enough that many legit gamers would be breaking any 'no late-sync' rules, and would not be allowed the 'priveledge' of being on the leaderboards.

Edited May 28, 2020 by danceswithsloths

[charxsetsuna]

The topic got detailed because one person made it about overriding timestamps, everyone else was on topic at that point.

[charxsetsuna]

Anyways this thread is never going to get anywhere, might as well close it. We were all talking about late syncing new trophies but the CRT thought we were talking about overriding timestamps. Now they wont flag clear cases of save usage because they got the wrong end of the stick even though that literally wasnt what we were talking about.

If I meant overriding trophies I would have put that but I didnt and 99% of people understood . People are trying to pin the blame on me for everything and that's not fair, 1% of people didnt understand so I'm to fault for making it go off track.

I didnt expand on the topic because I didnt want to influence people and everyone still understood.

I didnt put a time frame for late syncs because its purely subjective.

The poll was there for a general gauge of thoughts, as I said on a post in the first page of the thread.

 

There were childish reactions everywhere but I feel like I'm the only person who apologised and now I feel like I'm being scapegoated for something I had no way of predicting or controlling.

 

 

[MichMasteR]

3 hours ago, ihadalifeb4this said:

 

 

Actually it could easily be argued whole statement was purely hypothetical and because of that can't be used as proof for flag. Just because someone sees that comment as a fact doesn't prove anything.

 

This is actually good example of attitude in disputes. Everything that makes you look guilty, must mean you are guilt. When i say this i'm talking about majority of random people that drop in and not CRT. When i was following disputes i didn't agree with every decision, but i still believed CRT was trying to do the best they can. However, i'm not following disputes for a while so maybe things changed for the better. In that case my statement is based on outdated experience and it should be taken as that.

 

As for topic itself i see this as someone elses problem and it will hopefully stay that way. I truly hope we won't have any honest gamers ending up permanently flagged over this.

 

  

 

I agree it would be hypothetical if he didn't mention he wasn't able to do it, so obviously it will be suspicious if he ends up managing anytime soon. I do see what you mean but still...

Edited May 28, 2020 by MichMasteR

[charxsetsuna]

12 minutes ago, MichMasteR said:

 

I agree it would be hypothetical if he didn't mention he wasn't able to do it, so obviously it will be suspicious if he ends up managing anytime soon. I do see what you mean but still...

I've gotta be honest I wouldn't believe him if he appeared on the dispute forums, too much doubt in my mind that he was being serious and not making a example. But at the back of my head I know he could just be making a example.  I'm so conflicted on this one, my gut is saying not to believe him but logic is saying it could just be a example he gave.

[B1rvine]

6 hours ago, woggly4 said:

To be honest, I'm a little bit confused.

 

It's about both issues really, they're connected. You seem to perfectly grasp the problem. There's no defined rules on "what using CFW means" which I clearly stated in my first post in the thread on page 2. Anyone who cheats gets a free pass by saying "Ooops, here's my real timestamps that I didn't sync on my first console" by exploiting a loop hole of that non definition.

 

I also pointed out other reasons, not related to cheating, that it may be a good for a leaderboard to restrict late syncing. Such as more accurate stats.

 

7 hours ago, BB-BakkerJ said:

This week a exploit was discovered for DB FighterZ to get the 20 million Zenni in around 5 minutes. And look. Not a day later there is already a dispute because someone reported someone for this exploit. I just don’t understand that at all. 
 

I have a question for @B1rvine. What is the percentage of false reports compared to legit reports. I’m really curious about this.

 

Because we're letting @Squirlruler learn the ropes (sorry for throwing you under the bus) by basically throwing him in the pit. The best way to learn is to make mistakes. Had he not just been added to the team, that flag would never been approved. As far as percentages go, I'd guestimate 5% of the reports are bad, and maybe 0.1% are approved in error. 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by B1rvine

[twothumbedfist]

Sorry I haven't read all 12 pages of this thread since it descended into farce so quickly, so I apologise if this has already been said. 

 

Since it's obvious that there's no solution that pleases everybody regarding late syncing, why not just do away with the unified leaderboard and have only separate PS4, PS3 and Vita leaderboards?

 

Since PS4 trophies are not known to be hackable yet, the PS4 leaderboard will still maintain some semblance of competition. For anyone that still wants to earn PS3 and Vita trophies (I still play both consoles myself) the compromise is that everyone on those leaderboards is unverified due to the nature of the platform. 

 

As far as I can see its either that or imposing time limits on trophy syncing, which is clearly a polarising issue right now. 

 

 

[Squirlruler]

Just now, twothumbedfist said:

Since PS4 trophies are not known to be hackable yet,

This is false. PS4 is 100% hackable.

[twothumbedfist]

1 minute ago, Squirlruler said:

This is false. PS4 is 100% hackable.

Ok, nevermind then. I'm not really up to date with hacking methods. 

[usapro2017]

4 hours ago, Spaz said:

And just like that, a controversial topic is being shot down by elitist trophy hunters on this website and people who CANNOT let go of old PS3 games with long dead servers.

 

You guys need to take a fucking chill pill, because I can't think of more nonsensical horseshit than this discussion taking place in this thread right now. I'm thinking of becoming less active on these forums, because the general attitude in regards to trophies in general, particularly late syncs getting a possible flag has really taken a turn for the worse.

 

A good number of nice people have left this website. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why.

I 100% agree with you Spaz, there’s a lot of Trophy Elitists/negative attitude on this site lately.

 

End of the day, trophies are just for fun/killing time. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by usapro2017

[charxsetsuna]

15 minutes ago, twothumbedfist said:

Sorry I haven't read all 12 pages of this thread since it descended into farce so quickly, so I apologise if this has already been said. 

 

Since it's obvious that there's no solution that pleases everybody regarding late syncing, why not just do away with the unified leaderboard and have only separate PS4, PS3 and Vita leaderboards?

 

Since PS4 trophies are not known to be hackable yet, the PS4 leaderboard will still maintain some semblance of competition. For anyone that still wants to earn PS3 and Vita trophies (I still play both consoles myself) the compromise is that everyone on those leaderboards is unverified due to the nature of the platform. 

 

As far as I can see its either that or imposing time limits on trophy syncing, which is clearly a polarising issue right now. 

 

 

I'm actually ok with that, even if the ps4 leaderboard won't be completely clean its probably the best option atm.

 

Actually no let's get rid of the leaderboards, no leaderboards no drama. No one has to be flagged if there are no leaderboards.

Edited May 28, 2020 by charxsetsuna

[hittheroadbucky]

13 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

 

 

Actually no let's get rid of the leaderboards, no leaderboards no drama. No one has to be flagged if there are no leaderboards.

That’s a kick in the balls for people that actually care about leaderboard stats. There’s drama everywhere on the internet if you don’t like it just don’t get involved