(Discussion)should you get flagged for late syncs?

[Br1anstrike3K]

10 minutes ago, acasser said:

 

Which isn't the case here.  Because if it was, you'd be flagged as soon as the site started tracking you.  Let me summarize what I said last night in the dispute thread that spawned this sub-thread:

 

The original flag report is your indictment.  The CRT crew reviewing that flag report is your trial -- a trial that more closely mimics Grand Jury proceedings (if we're using the American judicial system as our "model") than anything else -- but that's where "guilt" or "innocence" gets determined and the CRT crew is your judge (and/or jury).

 

Disputing a flag is an appeal of a guilty verdict.  And if we're going to carry the American judicial system metaphor forward through this, the burden of proof has now shifted to the appealing party to demonstrate that the original verdict was rendered incorrectly.

God if this site is using the American judicial system as the example for how this shit works... then everybody is fucked lol I’m so confused were you trying to use that example to help prove your point or completely ruin your argument???

I didn’t even vote until after my comment but 11 vs 136 seems like people don’t want to be forced into doing their hobby/gaming a specific way that others want them to do it... can’t imagine why lmfao jk

Edited May 27, 2020 by Br1anstrike3K
Wanted to edit duh

[DaivRules]

2 minutes ago, PhyrxianLibrarin said:

If they took the stance of "allow everyone on unless we can prove they cheated", they'd have to allow nearly everyone back on.

 

That HAS been the stance. Also, very few people who add themselves to the front page to be tracked ever enter the forums, let alone find the page that dictates the leaderboard rules. 

[Starcade_Legend]

24 minutes ago, Velvet said:

 

I come in peace, promise.

 

My main argument with this is the scale of it. You're asking an entire website of thousands of gamers to theoretically change how/when they sync, all to catch the one guy (I know it's not just 1, but you get what I mean). There's gotta be something else that can be done to catch them. I know you guys are trying to find a way to make it easier for the CRT, but this just feels like the wrong approach to me personally. 

 

Getting flagged is one thing, getting unflagged is a different story. "As long as you're innocent, you should be fine" doesn't have a stand here. Those of us who haven't done anything wrong don't want to go through the game of "will it [the flag] be lifted or not" because of something as silly as not syncing your trophies right away. 

There's just gotta be another way, imo.

I look at it like this:

 

There’s crime in a city.  But it’s over taken the police force, and now it’s made a person (with resources and passion) to don a mask and cape to handle the influx of high level/farther-than-police-reaching crimes.  The pendulum moved heavily to the ‘good guys’ side.

 

Until a guy shows up in face paint and laughs like a clown.

 

And now, the honorable/heroic guy that had scruples, guidelines, and rules had to change those rules because the enemy has now become something else, something more sinister.  Do you change, or do you keep being one step behind because you weren’t willing to go to ‘darker places’ for victory?

 

And those ‘darker places’...a lot more innocent people will get hurt.  That guy with the cape will get colder and less approachable.  And eventually...will become a mirror image of that one thing he despised to put them on this heroic path to seek justice in the first place.

 

Wow.  Somebody get me some over-priced popcorn and raisenets!  This movie is better than The Hangover!  ?

[charxsetsuna]

6 minutes ago, PhyrxianLibrarin said:

Since this thread is devolving into shitposting against the CRTs, and will likely be locked soon...

 

Yep, the discussion will be censored like these often are. I would argue it's not shitposting but criticising but I guess some people would say any criticism against the CRT is shitposting..

[B1rvine]

8 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

snip

 

it's not realistic, but the point is, not being on the leaderboard doesn't mean it's "an attack" or some baloney.

 

Right now, the leaderboard rules defines CFW as cheating, with no measurement of how that cheating is defined. At one time, late syncing was a tell-tale sign that pretty much guaranteed you were a cheater using CFW. Now, it's done on purpose, and worse, on purpose in a way that mimics cheating (viewable by CRT) and everybody gets mad. 

 

My disclaimer was meant to illustrate there's a non offensive way to fix the both exploits to the rules, and the rules themselves.

[Velvet]

3 minutes ago, Starcade_Legend said:

I look at it like this:

 

There’s crime in a city.  But it’s over taken the police force, and now it’s made a person (with resources and passion) to don a mask and cape to handle the influx of high level/farther-than-police-reaching crimes.  The pendulum moved heavily to the ‘good guys’ side.

 

Until a guy shows up in face paint and laughs like a clown.

 

And now, the honorable/heroic guy that had scruples, guidelines, and rules had to change those rules because the enemy has now become something else, something more sinister.  Do you change, or do you keep being one step behind because you weren’t willing to go to ‘darker places’ for victory?

 

And those ‘darker places’...a lot more innocent people will get hurt.  That guy with the cape will get colder and less approachable.  And eventually...will become a mirror image of that one thing he despised to put them on this heroic path to seek justice in the first place.

 

Wow.  Somebody get me some over-priced popcorn and raisenets!  This movie is better than The Hangover!  ?

 

B1rvine confirmed Batman. 

[Beyondthegrave07]

36 minutes ago, ZitMeatloaf said:

While I see your point, I'm not sure the likelihood is as minuscule as some people think. There are a lot of situations that could cause long delays in syncing.

 

Looking at this through my own life's lens (as we all are), I didn't turn on my PS3 for 5+ years after my first kid was born. If I'd had any unsynced trophies which then synced 5 years later, then I could have been flagged for multiple games and the flags would have stuck. While I don't care about the leaderboards all that much, I DO care about being labeled a cheater. And despite reassurances from the CRT and other mods that being flagged doesn't necessarily mean you're a cheater, there are plenty of members on this site (I'd wager a majority) who equate leaderboard removal with cheating.

You're telling me that if you saw a trophy from 2012 pop up from closed servers on someone's list in 2020 that you'd think it's legit and give them the benefit of the doubt? Because I wouldn't.

 

At least in your example, you could still easily prove your innocence. You could take screenshots of in-game stats or something similar to prove it. I'm not saying you would have to provide a lot and I think a statute of limitations would need to be put on it to be fair to the player too. I think the notion of being flagged for late syncing is being blown out of proportion.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Beyondthegrave07

[Stardroid]

Imagine spending hours of your time a week, with no payment whatsoever, skimming through reports only for some dumb people to throw shit and you proclaiming ridiculous stuff like "ItS a CulT". My God, some of you people are a complete hyperbole. On the topic itself. Listen, if people purposefully mimic CFW to just waste the time of people actually attempting to keep the leaderboard clean, they can be pulled off for all I care. I also would hope that not syncing stuff in years is the exception, let alone be found. And that if it's the case that this person just didn't sync for so long for some weird reason, can at least share some proof that the trophy was done legit and flags can be lifted. 

 

If it's true, that the timestamps mimic CFW to the point where you wouldn't be able to really call CFW out if we legitimate late timestamps in this ridiculous way, then 100 percent they should be flagged if you ask me.

[danceswithsloths]

25 minutes ago, acasser said:

 

Which isn't the case here.  Because if it was, you'd be flagged as soon as the site started tracking you.  Let me summarize what I said last night in the dispute thread that spawned this sub-thread:

 

The original flag report is your indictment.  The CRT crew reviewing that flag report is your trial -- a trial that more closely mimics Grand Jury proceedings (if we're using the American judicial system as our "model") than anything else -- but that's where "guilt" or "innocence" gets determined and the CRT crew is your judge (and/or jury).

 

Disputing a flag is an appeal of a guilty verdict.  And if we're going to carry the American judicial system metaphor forward through this, the burden of proof has now shifted to the appealing party to demonstrate that the original verdict was rendered incorrectly.

It is exactly the case here. You can try to run your mental gymnastics all over the place if you want, but you are accusing somebody of being guilty of cheating without any proof, and expecting them to supply evidence that proves their innocence.

Edited May 27, 2020 by danceswithsloths

[charxsetsuna]

4 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

You're telling me that if you saw a trophy from 2012 pop up from closed servers on someone's list in 2020 that you'd think it's legit and give them the benefit of the doubt? Because I wouldn't.

 

At least in your example, you could still easily prove your innocence. You could take screenshots of in-game stats or something similar to prove it. I'm not saying you would have to provide a lot and I think a statute of limitations would need to be put on it to be fair to the player too. I think the notion of being flagged for late syncing is being blown out of proportion.

I think if your going to suddenly sync a unobtainable trophy then you do need to be prepared to give evidence. That much I can agree on.

[AiManiaTrophyhuntres]

43 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

This is no longer a website for a hobby its become a bloody cult.

We are literally flagging people who have done nothing wrong other than not doing things in the" flawless perfect way". For not doing our hobby the same way as everyone else like clones its ridiculous. 

Yep

 

 

38 minutes ago, MichMasteR said:

 

Trophy hunting and achievement hunting have become a bloody cult in general, not just this website

nah seriously, I'm on more than one website and this is the only one I get the feeling of being almost bullied into a specific way of gaming, so I already left and found my trophy community elsewhere.

Somedays like today just can't help myself and put my 2 cents in here, but not that it matters.

 

 

 

Also serious question, bc I just saw 2 ppl using that point: Do you all keep your trophy screenshots? I delete most of them after I deleted the game from my drive, I only keep the nice ones for my blog, also I have more than one console and I only keep those screenshots on my main console anyway. To not have those screenshots can't be seriously a prove of anything oO

 

[B1rvine]

My last post for awhile. 

 

1: There's plenty of people that sync late with no issues at all. It's not against the rules. It's CFW usage that is flagged, and as a result of that CFW, have the symptom of being "late." Nobody's being flagged for syncing late, just for using CFW.

 

2: Loopholes should be closed. There's no reason not to. Plenty of ways can be implemented to help people who are casual, and/or have accidents.There's no reason not to have a legitimate leaderboard as possible, for those that care about it. 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by B1rvine

[DaivRules]

7 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Yep, the discussion will be censored like these often are. I would argue it's not shitposting but criticising but I guess some people would say any criticism against the CRT is shitposting..

 

Talk about shitposting.

 

6 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

it's not realistic, but the point is, not being on the leaderboard doesn't mean it's "an attack" or some baloney.

 

Right now, the leaderboard rules defines CFW as cheating, with no measurement of how that cheating is defined. At one time, late syncing was a tell-tale sign that pretty much guaranteed you were a cheater using CFW. Now, it's done on purpose, and worse, on purpose in a way that mimics cheating (viewable by CRT) and everybody gets mad. 

 

My disclaimer was meant to illustrate there's a non offensive way to fix the both exploits to the rules, and the rules themselves.

 

While I was pointing out the extremity of the suggestion as a joke, I would support the infrastructure needed because it could also be used for new forum accounts before they're allow to post and for gaming sessions before they're allowed to be created.

 

I'm pretty sure I have some PS3 trophies sitting unsynced on a PS3 in a box at my parents house that are likely 10 years hold, I might be affected by this decision if I decided to dig it out and hook it up and then decide to sync them. 

 

I think within the current framework of the site and rules, Cheater Removers should follow the existing guidelines. If it's just one trophy, people shouldn't be getting flagged. (Sly said this somewhere, I'd link to it if I cared a little more.) In these late sync/CFW-similar scenarios, take them on a individual basis. If it's one game and questionable, sit on the report. If any of the more specific rules are clearly violated then a pattern has emerged. Flag it along with the other flagged items.

 

Trying to pinpoint a specific timeframe is going to be subjective no matter what is decided and now that the problem console (PS3) has been out for so long and many trophy hunters have multiple PS3s (I have three and I don't even consider myself a hunter), this scenario isn't going to be as easy as just setting a time frame 10+ years into people earning trophies on the PS3, and expect it to be really effective.

[Velvet]

3 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

My last post for awhile. 

 

1: There's plenty of people that sync late with no issues at all. It's not against the rules. It's CFW usage that is flagged, and as a result of that CFW, have the symptom of being "late." Nobody's being flagged for syncing late, just for using CFW.

 

What was the point of this thread then, haha!

 

Jolly good chat, all!

[Starcade_Legend]

2 minutes ago, Velvet said:

 

B1rvine confirmed Batman. 

Is that right, B1rvine?  Are you and the CRT/admin/Sly Ripper the symbolic representation of Bruce Wayne?

 

Then let ‘us’ (casual gamers/speed runners/completionists/hackers) hunt you; but we’ll hunt you because you (PSNProfiles.com) can take it.  You’d become the hero we ‘need’, but don’t deserve.  And become The Dark Knight.

 

Or not.  You can take the more ‘visible’ route of still saying how you’re about honor and transparency in the face of this new enemy, but lack the ‘Will To Act’.  Like Thomas Wayne.

 

 

We shall see.  Everyone is looking and waiting, believe you me.  Even the ‘honest’ trophy hunters in this thread.  We’re all waiting for your next move, admin...?

[charxsetsuna]

1 minute ago, Starcade_Legend said:

Is that right, B1rvine?  Are you and the CRT/admin/Sly Ripper the symbolic representation of Bruce Wayne?

 

Then let ‘us’ (casual gamers/speed runners/completionists/hackers) hunt you; but we’ll hunt you because you (PSNProfiles.com) can take it.  You’d become the hero we ‘need’, but don’t deserve.  And become The Dark Knight.

 

Or not.  You can take the more ‘visible’ route of still saying how you’re about honor and transparency in the face of this new enemy, but lack the ‘Will To Act’.  Like Thomas Wayne.

 

 

We shall see.  Everyone is looking and waiting, believe you me.  Even the ‘honest’ trophy hunters in this thread.  We’re all waiting for your next move, admin...

Even I have to say that's being a bit over dramatic . 

[B1rvine]

19 minutes ago, Velvet said:

B1rvine confirmed Batman. 

 

No, I'm actually Rorschach... 

[Joker-Kun890]

Would it be possible to separate flags? The site currently allows 3 right? Maybe just offer different flags for different things with their own limits before being removed from the leaderboard. 

 

Out of curiosity, what is meant by CFW tactics? Genuine question, not sarcasm. 

[PrimitiveRetro]

Do you remember back in the days we had the normal leaderboard and also hackers leaderboard?

Maybe we ..... no scrap that

[DeepEyes7]

1 minute ago, Joker-Kun890 said:

Would it be possible to separate flags? The site currently allows 3 right? Maybe just offer different flags for different things with their own limits before being removed from the leaderboard. 

 

Out of curiosity, what is meant by CFW tactics? Genuine question, not sarcasm. 

 

Well, if I'm not mistaken the CFW flag confirmed means ban, even with just one...

 

Usually I have seen that the CRT doesn't share the common tactics of CFW users so that they continue using them to easily identify them

[Joker-Kun890]

Just now, DeepEyes7 said:

 

Well, if I'm not mistaken the CFW flag confirmed means ban, even with just one...

 

Usually I have seen that the CRT doesn't share the common tactics of CFW users so that they continue using them to easily identify them

 

Ah gotcha. ?

[Nitro]

The solution is pretty obvious... If something is BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT (eg. Syncing something 10+ years late with Resistance 2)... sure, go ahead and flag them. But a year, 2 years, hell, 3 years? Leave them alone.

 

The community seems pretty set on what they want. They don't want time restrictions.

[Starcade_Legend]

2 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Even I have to say that's being a bit over dramatic . 

Ha!  ?  I’m just being ridiculous.

 

But I do believe something will change.  As I said in another post, I really don’t have a dog in the race.  I have no investment one way or another.

 

With that being said, if we were to see one of our more ‘respected’ members suddenly sync some trophies from 6 months+ from now and they get flagged...I’m sure they’ll be blaming some people in this thread, rightfully so.  If there is a dispute with a web archives pic of someone’s trophy list months ago WITHOUT those trophies indicated...I wouldn’t understand why a flag WOULDN’T stick, regardless of video proof of you in a video with your ID, Paul McCartney, a tricked-out Delorean, and The Philharmonic Orchestra playing in the background.  Because of the opportunity for others with similar reasons.  Just the reality of the situation.

 

But again...this is a back door left open, that has been made very public.  Let’s see what happens next.

[Vadrael]

A no from me, because life can be unfair und force  you in unwanted situations. 

What iam interested in is the case of Blank accounts.

Got a few games started on blanks an i want to finish and synch them after i cleared my backlog since i dont want to lose progress on my online account.

The blanks are over 2 years old at this point but since my console was connected to internet it has the time stamps.

how would this be handeled, game pops out of nowhere and only the last trophies are recent.

would i need to inform the staff before synching ?

[Starcade_Legend]

4 minutes ago, Nitro said:

The solution is pretty obvious... If something is BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT (eg. Syncing something 10+ years late with Resistance 2)... sure, go ahead and flag them. But a year, 2 years, hell, 3 years? Leave them alone.

 

The community seems pretty set on what they want. They don't want time restrictions.

So 10 years and later is the obvious CFW ban for you, in relation for trophy syncing?  And everything else is a pass/should be given the benefit of the doubt?  ?