(Discussion)should you get flagged for late syncs?

[Lonemankane]

2 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

Custom Firmware and Cheater Removal Team

 

1 minute ago, TheBotyayeet said:

Custom FirmWare

Cheater Removal Team

ah, thanks, so basically a jailbroken ps3 is a custom firmware or an unupdated ps3? like say my own old ps3 that can play old ps2 games I have not updated it due to hearing that if you update it, it brakes the ps2 part of it

Edited May 27, 2020 by KANERKB

[B1rvine]

46 minutes ago, Mesopithecus said:

I would like to see what the other CRT members think about this topic as a whole.  I have already seen MMDE's response regarding this on a status update from earlier today.

 

I'll sum it for you. We're all completely confident we can tell the difference between late syncing and CFW usage. Nobody will get flagged for late syncs alone. And yes, occasionally mistakes get made, but it's really not that common. We're generally so worried about giving out false flags if there's any doubt in our mind, we won't flag something.

 

As far as improving rules for the future, or making a new style leaderboard that's better, or different, etc :

 

I'm all for it.

@MMDE is happy with the current system.

@grimydawg___ doesn't give a flying f.

@Squirlruler doesn't feel like making waves this early on.

 

Of course they're welcome to post in this thread.

 

In my original post in this thread : I also made the case for why late syncing isn't necessarily about cheating vs general improvements.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by B1rvine

[danceswithsloths]

4 minutes ago, Murderer__211 said:

I think they, like most of us, can apply good logic to the situation and determine if the flag is legitimate CFW or is more likely to be a late sync based on the player's habits, how clean their profile is, etc.

But it has been specifically stated that a case-by-case basis like that is not an acceptable solution.

[Thropy_Croissant]

I'd much rather have 50 cheaters not getting flagged than 1 innocent guy get flagged for such a lame reason. Those cheaters will get caught for something else anyway down the road. 

[TheBotyayeet]

I have 8 PS3s F syncing them on time all the time. I use this site for guides and thats pretty much it, Hope I dont get a warning

But  I like 1 and a half of the CRT Sorry MMDE you're the half, The other 2 could eat my ass, It seems like they are stuck in Their viewpoints though and their bootlicking army is in full effect so *Shrug*

[mackenzie129]

4 minutes ago, KANERKB said:

 

ah, thanks, so basically a jailbroken ps3 is a custom firmware or an unupdated ps3? like say my own old ps3 that can play old ps2 games I have not updated it due to hearing that if you update it, it brakes the ps2 part of it

Something about breaking the firmware I legit don't fully know myself I have a OG PS3 that plays ps2 games and rather not fox with it lol

[Murderer__211]

4 minutes ago, danceswithsloths said:

But it has been specifically stated that a case-by-case basis like that is not an acceptable solution.

Every flag is reviewed by a member of the CRT. If you distrust the process or their judgements, then that's an issue for another thread

[Lonemankane]

5 minutes ago, mackenzie129 said:

Something about breaking the firmware I legit don't fully know myself I have a OG PS3 that plays ps2 games and rather not fox with it lol

same, I don't have the dosh to go getting another ps3 that has the power to play ps2 games and I barely knew how to put in a 100gb hardrive in the fatboy ps3

Edited May 27, 2020 by KANERKB

[ViperLance34]

2 minutes ago, Thropy_Croissant said:

I'd much rather have 50 cheaters not getting flagged than 1 innocent guy get flagged for such a lame reason. Those cheaters will get caught for something else anyway down the road. 

 

This is actually a good point. Cheaters will eventually slip up and get caught for something, but legit players will always appear legit.

 

Maybe the system could be updated somehow to give the benefit of a doubt for people with late syncs? Maybe something like a yellow flag? Your assumed cheated game gets a yellow flag but doesn't need hiding for you to remain on the leaderboard. After your 3rd yellow flag, it becomes a red flag and then all subsequent flags are red as usual?

[danceswithsloths]

6 minutes ago, Murderer__211 said:

Every flag is reviewed by a member of the CRT. If you distrust the process or their judgements, then that's an issue for another thread

But these flags wouldn't ever be lifted is what I am saying. They would be valid flags under the new rule. Regardless of the player's habits, or how clean their profile is, the blanket rule would make the flags valid, and the flag would remain, because it has been specifically stated that evaluating each late-sync flag on a case-by-case basis is not a viable solution:

2 hours ago, B1rvine said:

Case by case isn't really a good solution. 

 

[B1rvine]

Real life scenarios :

 

Scenario 1 : 

By not syncing, resulted in save file usage autopopping trophies later on. Did he "cheat?" Probably not in this instance. Did he break the leaderboard rules? Yep.....

 

Scenario 2:

User has claimed their CFW edited stamps are legit for PS3 TLOU, originally with dates after the shutdown, and that the originally late synced stamps that suddenly changed after a dispute are the "correct" ones. 

[Murderer__211]

2 minutes ago, danceswithsloths said:

But these flags wouldn't ever be lifted is what I am saying. They would be valid flags under the new rule. Regardless of the player's habits, or how clean their profile is, the blanket rule would make the flags valid, and the flag would remain, because it has been specifically stated that evaluating each late-sync flag on a case-by-case basis is not a viable solution:

 

And yet every flag is still individually reviewed by a member of the CRT and as @B1rvine already stated,

 

19 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Nobody will get flagged for late syncs alone. And yes, occasionally mistakes get made, but it's really not that common. We're generally so worried about giving out false flags if there's any doubt in our mind, we won't flag something.

So again, the question is whether or not you trust the CRT and their judgement on whether or not they can determine if something was just a late sync or not. And to be fair, in the dispute that started this entire thread, the flag was lifted as the player was able to show his stats.

[ViperLance34]

36 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Real life scenarios :

 

Scenario 1 : 

By not syncing, resulted in save file usage autopopping trophies later on. Did he "cheat?" Probably not in this instance. Did he break the leaderboard rules? Yep.....

 

 

Wait a second... that's similar to ddrakner's dispute and he got unflagged. ?

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by LupusLance34

[danceswithsloths]

2 minutes ago, Murderer__211 said:

And yet every flag is still individually reviewed by a member of the CRT and as @B1rvine already stated: (quote from birvine)

 

That's all fine and well as long as they actually allow flags to be lifted or remain on a case by case basis like that. That sounds like the logical solution to me. It certainly sounded to me like that would not be happening under the new rule though, and that all accounts which are in violation would remain flagged. Perhaps I misunderstood, but when someone says 'case by case isn't really a good solution' that tells me they are more in favor of a blanket rule that would not be evaluated per individual case.

 

Quote

So again, the question is whether or not you trust the CRT and their judgement on whether or not they can determine if something was just a late sync or not. And to be fair, in the dispute that started this entire thread, the flag was lifted as the player was able to show his stats.

 

Yup, and as I stated above, I'm just not so sure that it would be lifted if this new rule were created.

[charxsetsuna]

You keep ignoring the request to bring in more CRT members, why?

[Murderer__211]

6 minutes ago, danceswithsloths said:

 

That's all fine and well as long as they actually allow flags to be lifted or remain on a case by case basis like that. That sounds like the logical solution to me. It certainly sounded to me like that would not be happening under the new rule though, and that all accounts which are in violation would remain flagged. Perhaps I misunderstood, but when someone says 'case by case isn't really a good solution' that tells me they are more in favor of a blanket rule that would not be evaluated per individual case.

 

 

Yup, and as I stated above, I'm just not so sure that it would be lifted if this new rule were created.

I may have gotten lost on who was arguing for what as I read everything but I too am not in favor of any blanket rules and prefer the current system as is. It results in a few false flags here and there but overall, I think it functions pretty well

[Baker]

1 hour ago, Starcade_Legend said:

Yes.

 

We as members have the option to report user’s trophies.  The CRT will review the report and give a flag, if they deem so.  If the user disputes, they can dispute the flag and ultimately the CRT will give a final judgement on that flag (forgive me for my ignorance on this topic).

*IF THERE ARE GUIDELINES SET BEFOREHAND*, whether those guidelines are popular with everyone/certain factions of gamers or not, it is ok for the CRT to flag (and keep flagged) a user.  If there are no guidelines set for an issue, then you have the ‘How can you say that’s fair?!‘ debate.  Which...the CRT will always look bad from that argument, at the end of the day.

 

So yes, it’s ‘ok’ if they get flagged for not doing anything wrong.

 

 

Most stupid thing I’ve read today.
 

And this is why I think either members shouldn’t be able to report at all anymore or at least give some sort of penalty if you report someone wrongfully. Like not being able to report for another year. Now correct me if I’m wrong but I have the feeling many people are just reporting based on a hunch or don’t actually know enough about the game.

You should always be absolutely sure if you’re going to report someone.

 

An absolute lowpoint was in a recent dispute where the game reported was questionable and a member asked ‘well should I just report some other games on his profile’ and than a Mod came in and said yes, just flag away. Fucking ridiculous.

 

And about the poll. Voted no ofcourse.
 

@Thropy_Croissant said it well. I’d also rather see a couple of cheaters get away instead of someone innocent getting wrongfully flagged.

[charxsetsuna]

2 minutes ago, BB-BakkerJ said:

Most stupid thing I’ve read today.
 

And this is why I think either members shouldn’t be able to report at all anymore or at least give some sort of penalty if you report someone wrongfully. Like not being able to report for another year. Now correct me if I’m wrong but I have the feeling many people are just reporting based on a hunch or don’t actually know enough about the game.

You should always be absolutely sure if you’re going to report someone.

 

An absolute lowpoint was in a recent dispute where the game reported was questionable and a member asked ‘well should I just report some other games on his profile’ and than a Mod came in and said yes, just flag away. Fucking ridiculous.

 

And about the poll. Voted no ofcourse.
 

@Thropy_Croissant said it well. I’d also rather see a couple of cheaters get away instead of someone innocent getting wrongfully flagged.

I agree with the penalty but there needs to be repeated wrong reports and honestly a year is overkill.

I remember them asking the person to flag another game, I think they gave context for why they said that but I can't remember.

[danceswithsloths]

6 minutes ago, Murderer__211 said:

I may have gotten lost on who was arguing for what as I read everything but I too am not in favor of any blanket rules and prefer the current system as is. It results in a few false flags here and there but overall, I think it functions pretty well

Oh, gotcha, yeah I think I may have gotten a little confused as well... sorry, it's a long thread. Probably a good sign I should stop posting in here lol, I've said my piece and so has the community I think. 

 

I also ran outta Karma to give for the day, I don't think I've ever done that before, another sign that I've spent too much time in here.

Edited May 27, 2020 by danceswithsloths

[Mesopithecus]

8 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

You keep ignoring the request to bring in more CRT members, why?

 

He didn't, he responded and tagged them.  It's up to them individually whether they want to come and post in this thread or not - plus there is the fact that they are probably busy with work and their real lives.

 

 

[ZeromusF4]

Just want it out there as someone who uses this site casually for groups and forums while I am at work, I appreciate what everyone does.

 

Cant be an easy job

[charxsetsuna]

7 minutes ago, Mesopithecus said:

 

He didn't, he responded and tagged them.  It's up to them individually whether they want to come and post in this thread or not - plus there is the fact that they are probably busy with work and their real lives.

 

 

He did ? sorry about that I must have missed it, ignore my comment. I missed it in the long thread this has become.

[Jelly Soup]

So, multiplatform achievement hunter here. I've seen this problem with other achievement ecosystems and how communities have torn themselves up trying to find the perfect solution between catching all the cheaters and not forcing hunters to walk on eggshells for fear of being accused. The problem here is the issue is being both overblown and understated at the same time. There are more cheaters than either side of the discussion realizes, but not so much that the community needs to be turned on it's head. It's not near that point yet, of course, but it's well on it's way.

 

The CRT, or specifically B1rvine, could stand to not make it sound like everyone is getting flagged for everything McCarthy style. The vocal community here, or specifically charxsetsuna, needs to calm the hell down, people aren't being flagged and removed from the leaderboard willynilly.

 

I agree that flagging for late syncs that aren't immediately suspect is a waste of everyones time, but acknowledge that there currently isn't a better way to go about this. 'Case by case' largely means nothing when there are only one or two vectors to work with when detecting problems, The only light at the end of the tunnel is that cheaters will get caught eventually. Either a new way to detect cheating will be invented, Sony will change up how the PSN works or the cheaters will just slip up. In most of the cases I've seen between Steam, Stadia, GoG, GooglePlay and a handful of others, the latter is how most cheaters are caught. Not flagging, not fancy tool, just good old fashioned cockiness turned up to 11.

[Martain2]

7 hours ago, B1rvine said:

 

That was due to a notable time frame where lists could potentially move all around, as some weird problematic trophy syncing issues were going on. If you look at my own Borderlands list, I have the same issue, from the same month, which was already synced and moved because I was testing something for a dispute.

 

And I can tell the difference.

 

This discussion is more about creating better standards.

 

Thanks for this reminder, I was wondering why my Dead Space 2 list (despite being finished in 2011) was between my Mass Effect 1 & 2 lists from 2017...at least I'm assuming that is the case?

[charxsetsuna]

Look I've gotta be honest this got out of hand ,I apologise for that. I still stand by my opinions but I know I'm not going to win,this is a battle of a unstoppable force vs a unmoveable object.

 

To finish this in a civil manner I suggest there is a pinned thread made, everyone votes . No voice worth more than anyone else's,  if we vote for new rules that's what happens but we we vote against it then there are no new rules. A vote where everyone's voice is heard on the same level crt or not.

I've seen this vote happen in speedrunning communities and while it causes minor drama it does still work. If everyone has their vote then no one can complain.

 

We must honour the results of the vote.

Edited May 27, 2020 by charxsetsuna