Cloudbahamut

[SPOILER!] Why Joel's story makes perfect sense

27 posts in this topic

Joel is basically the inverse trope of "women in refrigerators". His death triggers an angry and merciless Ellie, and the real beginning of TLOU2.

 

You have many plot twists ahead, though. I will just tell you this: don't take anything for granted.

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yes that is actually an important point - Joel has indeed changed as a person. Through his relationship with Ellie and his new life in Jackson he has become much more open, caring and is now much more the Joel we saw 20 years ago when Sarah died. Because of this he is not as hardened, ruthless, calculating, cynical and mistrusting anymore as he used to be in the first game and ironically as he has become more "human" again he has become less of a survivor. That is the irony of it and I think that this is very deliberate. Joel HAS changed and has become a different man then in the first game. He is much more the father again then the survivor and as a result has lost some of his edge. Abby probably wouldn't have been able to kill him 5 years earlier. But that is the tragedy - by becoming a better man again Joel also became much easier to deceive and kill. That's not bad writing or out of character at all but deliberate and an important part of Joel's character development.

And yeah of course none of the new characters can fill the void of his absence. That's because that void is never supposed to be filled. You are supposed to feel that void at all times and the weight of that loss.

I am currently in Downtown Seattle and just made it through that "Fuck Fedra" gate, nearing the end of chapter 9. Even though I knew Joel's death was coming it still hit me pretty hard (no pun intended). Especially that Ellie was forced to watch it happen. It was unbearable. And Ellie visiting his house afterwards was so hard. I loved that Joel had pictures of himself with Sarah and himself with Ellie side by side on a drawer. His two daughters. That really almost killed me.

I know that Abbys story is also a moving and tragic one and although I don't know her story yet (besides the fact that Joel killed her father) at this point I am adamant that they could reveal nothing that would make me forgive what she has done, especially the way she has done it. The thought that I actually have to play as her later on for a good portion of the game is sickening to me at this point. I probably let myself get killed a couple of times just so I can see her die haha.

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I finished the game already, and oh boy you are gonna enjoy it. It's so important to remember people that TLOU was never a forgiving, calm and beautiful world. This game isn't even about revenge, i'd say it's about humans. Flawed, forgiving, loving, caring, violent and complex humans. Tlou doesn't have games to compete with, that's how unique it is. I liked this one better than the first, still both great games.

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2 hours ago, Cloudbahamut said:

yes that is actually an important point - Joel has indeed changed as a person. Through his relationship with Ellie and his new life in Jackson he has become much more open, caring and is now much more the Joel we saw 20 years ago when Sarah died. Because of this he is not as hardened, ruthless, calculating, cynical and mistrusting anymore as he used to be in the first game and ironically as he has become more "human" again he has become less of a survivor. That is the irony of it and I think that this is very deliberate. Joel HAS changed and has become a different man then in the first game. He is much more the father again then the survivor and as a result has lost some of his edge. Abby probably wouldn't have been able to kill him 5 years earlier. But that is the tragedy - by becoming a better man again Joel also became much easier to deceive and kill. That's not bad writing or out of character at all but deliberate and an important part of Joel's character development.

 

I disagree with Joel losing his edge. If anything, I'd expect him to be a lot more cautious and even ruthless in order to protect Ellie. It's like how Rick in the Walking Dead becomes more ruthless over time because he understands its necessary to protect the people he cares about. Joel has also lost Sarah and so that should make him even more focused on protecting Ellie at all costs.

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6 hours ago, ObliviousSenpai said:

 

I disagree with Joel losing his edge. If anything, I'd expect him to be a lot more cautious and even ruthless in order to protect Ellie. It's like how Rick in the Walking Dead becomes more ruthless over time because he understands its necessary to protect the people he cares about. Joel has also lost Sarah and so that should make him even more focused on protecting Ellie at all costs.


I disagree. Rick is actually a wonderful example as he has actually been killed as well in the TWD comics by a vengeful child of someone he defeated. He was pretty much in Joel's age when it happened too and the narrative shifted to his son Carl as the main protagonist. Now that I think about it there is actually a lot of similarity there between TWD and TLOU. I heard people say that Abby is kinda the Negan of TLOU which is interesting because Negan is my all time favorite character ever. And again the similarities are indeed there. Negan made a lot of people hate him for a long time by bashing in the head of a very beloved character (Glenn) - and isn't that exact same thing Abby did ? Ha the similarities are crazy !

Also why would Joel become more ruthless ? There is no need for him to be. They are in a protected community (much like Ricks group was in Alexandria) with hundreds of people, weapons, electricity. There would be no need anymore for Joel to protect Ellie at all cost, there is a whole community of people looking out for each other. As a result he would feel more safe and become much more of a family man then a killer again. His love for Ellie changed his outlook on life profoundly in the first game. And at the time of his death, Ellie is grown up and can take care of herself. Joel didn't see much danger for her anymore.

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39 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:

I disagree. Rick is actually a wonderful example as he has actually been killed as well in the TWD comics by a vengeful child of someone he defeated. He was pretty much in Joel's age when it happened too and the narrative shifted to his son Carl as the main protagonist. Now that I think about it there is actually a lot of similarity there between TWD and TLOU. I heard people say that Abby is kinda the Negan of TLOU which is interesting because Negan is my all time favorite character ever. And again the similarities are indeed there. Negan made a lot of people hate him for a long time by bashing in the head of a very beloved character (Glenn) - and isn't that exact same thing Abby did ? Ha the similarities are crazy !

Also why would Joel become more ruthless ? There is no need for him to be. They are in a protected community (much like Ricks group was in Alexandria) with hundreds of people, weapons, electricity. There would be no need anymore for Joel to protect Ellie at all cost, there is a whole community of people looking out for each other. As a result he would feel more safe and become much more of a family man then a killer again. His love for Ellie changed his outlook on life profoundly in the first game. And at the time of his death, Ellie is grown up and can take care of herself. Joel didn't see much danger for her anymore.

 

Negan is my favourite TWD character, but I also liked him the moment he showed up and never cared much for Glenn. I think the comparison would be better if Negan bashed Rick's head in. It would be interesting to see how they handle Abby with the inevitable TLoU3 and if they're capable of making her as likeable as Negan.

 

He would become more ruthless and calculating because he's already lost one daughter. There are also scenes that you might not have seen yet that show Joel is still very protective of Ellie. He certainly has a soft spot for Ellie, but that doesn't mean his outlook towards the rest of the world has changed. 

 

 

Edited by ObliviousSenpai
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3 minutes ago, ObliviousSenpai said:

 

Negan is my favourite TWD character, but I also liked him the moment he showed up and never cared much for Glenn. I think the comparison would be better if Negan bashed Rick's head in. It would be interesting to see how they handle Abby with the inevitable TLoU3 and if they're capable of making her as likeable as Negan.

 

He would become more ruthless and calculating because he's already lost one daughter. There are also scenes that you might not have seen yet that show Joel is still very protective of Ellie. He certainly has a soft spot for Ellie, but that doesn't mean his outlook towards the rest of the world has changed. 

 

 


Another fellow Negan lover ? Awesome. Most TWD fans seem to hate his guts and want him to die horribly. Though that attitude has changed somewhat since his redemption arc during the Whisperer War (its funny that both the comic and TV fans of TWD reacted the exact same way to Negan in both versions).

I know that Ellie will spare Abby in the end and I was trying to remember why that sounded so incredibly familiar and now I just remembered: Maggie in TWD.

In the comics (and the TV series) Maggie is obsessed with revenge against Negan for killing Glenn (sound familiar ?) but at the end of the Whisperer War when she finally has the chance to kill Negan she ultimately decides to spare his life after she realizes what vengeance has done to her and that he isn't the sadistic villain underneath that she thought he was. And from what I have heard about Ellie sparing Abby by the end it's almost the exact same thing.

Damn Druckmann has been REALLY inspired by TWD for this story huh ? All these similarities can't be a coincidence.

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14 minutes ago, Cloudbahamut said:


Another fellow Negan lover ? Awesome. Most TWD fans seem to hate his guts and want him to die horribly. Though that attitude has changed somewhat since his redemption arc during the Whisperer War (its funny that both the comic and TV fans of TWD reacted the exact same way to Negan in both versions).

I know that Ellie will spare Abby in the end and I was trying to remember why that sounded so incredibly familiar and now I just remembered: Maggie in TWD.

In the comics (and the TV series) Maggie is obsessed with revenge against Negan for killing Glenn (sound familiar ?) but at the end of the Whisperer War when she finally has the chance to kill Negan she ultimately decides to spare his life after she realizes what vengeance has done to her and that he isn't the sadistic villain underneath that she thought he was. And from what I have heard about Ellie sparing Abby by the end it's almost the exact same thing.

Damn Druckmann has been REALLY inspired by TWD for this story huh ? All these similarities can't be a coincidence.

 

I think it's hard to hate JDM as Negan and that's why I liked him from the beginning. I also see him as the only character capable of carrying the show with the departure of Rick. None of the other characters or actors really seem capable of doing that.

 

With Maggie it made a lot more sense after we see what being locked up did to Negan. It breaks him and allows him to rebuild himself into a better man with later seasons. TLoU2 doesn't really do that with Abby and (ending spoilers)

 

yeah she does get spared, but it makes no sense considering how many Ellie killed and tortured in order to reach that destination. It would make more sense for Ellie to exact her revenge, but to be left with nothing, which would have done a much better job of accomplishing the simple "revenge is bad" message.

Edited by ObliviousSenpai
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4 minutes ago, ObliviousSenpai said:

 

I think it's hard to hate JDM as Negan and that's why I liked him from the beginning. I also see him as the only character capable of carrying the show with the departure of Rick. None of the other characters or actors really seem capable of doing that.

 

With Maggie it made a lot more sense after we see what being locked up did to Negan. It breaks him and allows him to rebuild himself into a better man with later seasons. TLoU2 doesn't really do that with Abby and

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yeah she does get spared, but it makes no sense considering how many Ellie killed and tortured in order to reach that destination. It would make more sense for Ellie to exact her revenge, but to be left with nothing, which would have done a much better job of accomplishing the simple "revenge is bad" message.

 


You only seem to be talking about the TV series. I am talking about the TWD comics which can be very different (They are also much better then the TV series, especially Negans character). the scene where Maggie spares Negan is very different in the comics. It does not happen while he is locked up but many years later after the end of the Whisperer War and is actually Negans final appearance in the series until the series finale. Maggie seeks him out in the wild and it is a moment entirely between them and no one else around for miles. Also in the comics Negan was not broken by being locked up. He was as nasty as ever (taunting the fuck out of Rick whenever he could) but his outlook changed because he came around to Ricks way of thinking (his relationship with Carl wo is not dead in the comics has a lot to do with that. That's what really changed Negan). Rick also never left in the comics. He is the main character in the Whisperer War fighting side by side with Negan against Beta and the Whisperers. Rick later dies in the comics but that is long after Negan has left the series.

You should really read the TWD comics. They are the true story.

Edited by Cloudbahamut
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On 7/4/2020 at 0:20 PM, jaehyun1009 said:

Indeed Joel has become a more sympathetic character as the flashbacks throughout the game show. But there are at least 2 critical flaws that really don't excuse how that scene plays out: 1. Players are not given much, if any context to Joel's new characterization before that scene happens. 2. Joel and Tommy growing sympathy and kindness doesn't necessarily have to translate to carelessness. It's a big ask for the audience to make that connection.

 

Killing off Joel early on in the game is a somewhat understandable, if not ambitious move in an attempt to draw parallel to Sarah's death early on in the first game that kickstarted Joel's story in a similar fashion. But it only comes across as a cheap shock value due to complete lack of respect given to existing characters in order to facilitate the story. Druckmann unfortunately missed the mark and the rest of the story is weaker as a result.

 

What I mean by none of the characters able to "fill the void" is not as a character but their quality. Jesse, Dina, Abby, Lev... none of the new characters introduced really make me care for them in any way due to lack of proper characterization and bonding moments, so to call it. Hell, I would even argue that Joel was the most compelling, likable character in TLOU2 despite being killed off hour in the game.

 

It's abundantly clear that ND missed Bruce Straley's influence here. There are ideas for a great, ambitious story to be told but poor pacing and overall execution ruined what could have been.

I agree with a lot of your points especially about Bruce Straley. Him leaving Naughty Dog was a massive loss and proves that Neil Druckmann is just not talented. I think Bruce was the real genius and creative force behind the original game and is not a coincidence that he left the company a couple of months after TLOU2 was announced...just saying. Druckmann's original concept of TLOU was not particularly good but Bruce and the incredibly talented team over at Naughty Dog made it a lot better and 60-70% of that team is no longer there which explains a lot about the story and characters in the sequel

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On 7/4/2020 at 3:36 PM, ObliviousSenpai said:

 

There are also scenes that you might not have seen yet that show Joel is still very protective of Ellie. He certainly has a soft spot for Ellie, but that doesn't mean his outlook towards the rest of the world has changed. 

 

 

 

But at the same time, all those scenes show that Ellie get's fed up regularly with him trying to protect her all the time. She's for example, angry at him for intervening in the scene with Seth in the bar. She's angry at him for intervening in the planning of her patrols. etc. etc.

I think Joel is doing what every parent does "went he kids leave the nest." He tries hard to let her be free while at the same time still being worried about her constantly. Sometimes he can't help himself but I think, in general, he is trying hard to be less protective of her.

And they lived a pretty comfortable life in Jackson. Add that fact to the mix and it's easy to see how he could become much softer and less careful. Also, he gets older as well and age is known to make many men mellow.

I think at some point in time, it simply gets exhausting mistrusting everyone all the time, constantly looking over your shoulder. Some day, you will simply be tired of it.

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I loved the game, I saw it from both sides and understood it well from both sides. There is no right and wrong, I thought they portrayed Abby well and showed us her side in a decent way. However she set out on premeditated murder. Joel was trying to take his "daughter" back. Two complaints:

 

1.) No way Mel pulled herself up a rope 8 months pregnant.

 

2.) Give the players the choice to kill or spare Abby, let us find closure in our own way. Felt forced for a Pt 3.

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7 hours ago, Sicho said:

 

But at the same time, all those scenes show that Ellie get's fed up regularly with him trying to protect her all the time. She's for example, angry at him for intervening in the scene with Seth in the bar. She's angry at him for intervening in the planning of her patrols. etc. etc.

I think Joel is doing what every parent does "went he kids leave the nest." He tries hard to let her be free while at the same time still being worried about her constantly. Sometimes he can't help himself but I think, in general, he is trying hard to be less protective of her.

And they lived a pretty comfortable life in Jackson. Add that fact to the mix and it's easy to see how he could become much softer and less careful. Also, he gets older as well and age is known to make many men mellow.

I think at some point in time, it simply gets exhausting mistrusting everyone all the time, constantly looking over your shoulder. Some day, you will simply be tired of it.

 

How Ellie feels about Joel's overprotectiveness means nothing. He was planning to give her space when she requested it because he knew it was the only way to try to mend their relationship. It's not that he's trying to be less protective of her, it's that he's trying to avoid losing her altogether after she'd learned the truth. 

 

How comfortable can life really be when you're living in the middle of an apocalypse? Age can also make people more bitter and mistrusting. I very much doubt he's forgotten about the death of his daughter and aside from Ellie, he does not have a very good outlook for the rest of the world. This isn't the world we know. It's a twisted place with danger at every corner and Joel's been surviving in it for a very long time. If they wanted to show Joel as mellowed out and less cautious, then they did an extremely poor job of showing it. 

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The problem with killing Joel that early, is most people just aren’t going to be interested in Abbys story. I feel like the scene with her dad and Marlene should of been the first thing we saw in the game, so straight away we know who it is and why she wants Joel dead, but no we get some randomer with no context just blow his legs off and smash his  face in with a golf club. 
 

i still enjoyed the game, and it’s definitely worth a few playthroughs, but the story leaves a lot to be desired imo. Which is a shame in a game that is all about the story

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I'm not the one to judge people's opinion. I'll admit, out of the boards I've seen, this is definitely more on the positive. Me personally? I couldn't stand it. I hated playing as Abby and I hated how they made gave us half on her story. If you liked it fine, but honestly, this video sums up my feelings in general. 
 

 

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15 hours ago, ARH65512 said:

I'm not the one to judge people's opinion. I'll admit, out of the boards I've seen, this is definitely more on the positive. Me personally? I couldn't stand it. I hated playing as Abby and I hated how they made gave us half on her story. If you liked it fine, but honestly, this video sums up my feelings in general. 
 

 

I watched that video like a week ago and I do agree with a lot of his points as well. He made another video that's pretty much in line with what I said on this thread about Bruce Straley being the real creative force behind with the original game

 

 

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A few days ago Troy Baker posted an amazing conversation he had with Neil Druckmann where they candidly talked about the game, their conflicts and struggles, the reception and the mindless hatred of many "fans" (particularly against Laura Bailey).

Troy even advised her strongly against taking the role of Abby as he knew that all the internet assholes would come down on her like the plague and since he had been working with her for over 10 years (their roles as Snow and Serah in Final Fantasy XIII were the first time I encountered them myself) he was really protective about her. But she loved the role and so chose to do it anyway. But then when the hate against her got so extreme that they threatened to harm her and her little son she really broke down and called Troy (which he said she rarely does). He then advised her to get out of social media permanently but was impressed and surprised when she decided to....well endure and survive.

This conversation between Troy and Neil is full of these really real glimpses into the game and it's reception and the struggles of making it and they really hold nothing back. I watched the whole thing and really walked away very impressed, with an deeper appreciation for Troy (who has been my favorite VA in the world for years) and Neil and their integrity and vision.

It's far more rewarding for myself to see these two who are such integral to the Last of Us games to get into it candidly and honestly then to watch some youtubers rants about why they hate the game.

Also when Troy and Neil talked about the game they actually said several things which were exactly what I thought or how I had analyzed the game for myself. It's like they were speaking my own thoughts. So that was really awesome to me. There are still some things in the game I do not agree with myself but for a large part what they said about it greatly mirrored my own analysis and that honestly made me feel really good about it.

In the video they cover a lot of stuff really, including the creating of the first game, creative control or their reaction to the early leaks. Anyone who seriously wants to discuss this game or criticise it should watch this - if only to open their minds more to other perspectives
 

 

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5 hours ago, ScarecrowsFate said:

 

Finally got around to watching this entire thing. It would have been easier to get through if Troy wasn't such a pretentious rambler (not to take anything away from him as an actor—the guy's fantastic), but it was still thought-provoking. I'm glad they made the exact game they wanted to make, sales be damned, yet it easily performed well enough for them to do it again. It's a good attitude to take about your art.

 

For me, the whole controversy really brings Metal Gear Solid 2's release to mind: the vitriol directed at that game rivaled what we've seen with TLoU II. So many people hated Raiden's guts! "Why do we have to play as this gay pretty boy?" "We all wanted Snake!" "False advertising!" etc.. Over 19 years later, MGS2 is widely considered to be one of the best Metal Gear games, and most fans seem to like Raiden. I suspect this game (and Abby) will also be viewed much more favorably in the future, especially if it's re-released to a new audience on PS5 or beyond.

 

As someone who's typically incredulous towards AAA blockbusters, I recently gained a lot of respect for the TLoU games, after playing through both of them with my 78-year-old mother. She usually has no interest whatsoever in this medium, but she loved them (says they're better than The Walking Dead TV show), and even played through a bunch of the quieter sections on her own—in particular, she really enjoyed riding the horses, piloting the boat, and exploring the dinosaur museum with Joel. By the end, she was tearing up for Ellie and Abby, and rooting for them both to survive. It was an unforgettable experience to bond with her over video games for the first time; I'll always have a soft spot for Naughty Dog after this.

 


That's a pretty amazing story and just shows how much The Last of Us touches people in different ways. The first game was already the most emotional gaming experience of my life (especially the ending) but after playing through the second game I was really an emotional wreck. It really stayed with me for many days and nights, especially Joel's death. I love this character so much and seeing him getting killed like that - it really hurt in ways games usually can't make you hurt. Not like this. For days I kept seeing that scene in my head (much like Ellie does in the game) and I have just never experienced that before in such an intense and profound way. people can hate Naughty Dog all they want but if they can make you feel this intensely in and about a video game then they deserve a lot of praise and respect.

Listening to interviews or conversations such as this one with Troy and Neil kinda helps me process the game better. Like you process a loss better if you talk to people about it. It also helped me gain new perspectives and see things from different angles.

Now if I think about it, like I said when I created this thread - Joel's death isn't really surprising. For all the things he did either to survive or protect Ellie there had to be a reckoning for some of it sooner or later. Some repercussions. In a more traditional story he would have probably gotten away with it and have his eternal happy end with Ellie because he is the hero (at least from the players perspective). Like Drake in Uncharted. At the end he comes out on top and gets his happy end with Elena and daughter. That's the traditional hero story. But that's where Last of Us is just different. Like Walking Dead it does not go for the traditional hero story with all it's tropes. It goes for realism and in the real world people like Joel would not get away with what they do and live happily ever after. Last of Us really examines and explores very real ideas and one of them just is that nobody is ever safe. Anyone can die at any moment and like Neil said in the interview often someone's death just isn't very heroic or just or deserved or respectful to the character. That's just not how it works in real life or in the world of this game. Instead Death is ugly, unexpected, disrespectful and unheroic.

I loved when Neil mentioned the deaths of Tess, Henry and Sam from the first game. They were sudden and pretty unceremonious too and those characters probably deserved better as well but that's not how it works in that world. Anyone can die at any moment - even Joel or Ellie. That's what makes it so emotional because you are actually afraid for these characters.

At first I really hated Abby too (and for killing Joel I will never forgive her no matter what) and hated the prospect of playing half the game as her and I really hated having to fight Ellie and having to hurt her. Some critics said the game turned Ellie into the villain and Abby into the hero but they really fail to grasp the concept behind it. Which is that it all depends on your point of view. It is not black and white, there is no heroes and villains in that game. What I thought was really bold and quite frankly brilliant in retrospect is that Naughty Dog takes the villains of the game (wether it's Abby and her crew or all the previous nameless enemy soldiers you kill as Ellie) and suddenly gives them names, life stories and humanity. Usually in games you just mow down all the regular enemies (like for example in Uncharted or Tomb Raider) and you never care about who they actually were, what their names were, who their friends and families are, what they fight for, if they were really bad people, if they had kids etc. You just don't think about that, they are just one dimensional enemies who want to kill you and so you kill them without second thought to survive and progress. That's how it always is in games.

But Last of Us 2 takes these enemies and by making you play as Abbie you actually get to know them. You learn who they are, what they have been through, their relationships and their friends and families and that they really just want to protect their people (sure some are sadistic bastards like Isaac or David in the first game but they are not all evil motherfuckers) just like Ellie, Tommy, Joel etc. do.

The perfect example for this are the dogs in the game. When you shoot the dogs as Ellie and one of them yells "No, she shot Bear !" you feel no pity whatsoever. The fucking dog tried to maul you so you shoot it. But then later when you meet the dog as Abby and play around with it and the dog is all cute and loyal and just a wonderful little companion who wants to protect his own you realize "Shit that's the dog I shot earlier and I didn't give a fuck about him"

Or the dog Alice who actually accompanies and helps and protects you for quite a bit when you play with Abby and just grows on you and you can't but caring about the dog and then in the aquarium you realize that this is the dog that Ellie stabbed the shit out of when Alice attacked her to protect her people. When playing as Ellie this dog was just some bloodthirsty beast to you that tried to kill you, not any different from those zombie dogs in Resident Evil. But later when playing as Abby you realize "shit this was a wonderful little friend who just wanted to protect her own". This is one of the most brilliant and unique things the game does - it completely changes your perception of who the enemies are depending entirely on your point of view.

if playing as Ellie then the WLF are sadistic, heartless motherfuckers who need to be put down and Abby and her friends must pay for what they did to Joel (with the ironic part being that this is no different from Abby  who felt that Joel needs to pay for what he did to HER father and the fact that hundreds of people died because of his sadistic selfishness - from Abbys POV).

But if you play as Abby then you are in this war against the Scars who are savages that need to be exterminated to protect your own people and all those heartless, evil villains from Ellies POV are suddenly real people with their own struggles, pain and people they are willing to die or kill for. And here come these girls and a few guys who just move into your city and start killing everybody they come across.

And I am sure if you could play from the perspective of the Seraphites you would get yet another POV where the Seraphites just try to fight for their survival and see the WLF as sadistic, ruthless persecutors who want to annihilate you for your religion and because you are unwilling to conform and bow down to their point of view.

While I still am firmly in Ellies POV and want revenge and justice for what was done to Joel, I think it's really brilliant how the game has totally different heroes, villains and victims depending on what side you are on. There is no such thing as a nameless, one dimensional regular enemy soldier that solely exists to be killed like in other games. Everyone is a person and everyone has their just cause for justice or revenge.

If we hadn't played the first game with Joel (which is the only reason why we are so attached to him in the 2nd game. we know his story, his pain, what he went through, who he is as a person etc.) but as one of the Fireflies and the game would end with some guy killing all our people and shooting one of our friends father in the head to steal the little girl that could have saved the world - we would have cheered for Joels death in Part 2.

And that is the point that Part 2 drives home so brilliantly in my opinion - that anyone is someone elses friend, family, victim or enemy.

For example let someone who has never played Last of Us play Abbys chapters first - that person will 100 % root for her and her people, cheer at Joels death and hate Ellie for killing all her friends. We hate Abby for killing Joel and hate her crew and root for Ellie because we fell in love with Ellie and Joel in the first game.

I don't know any other game who has ever explored all the different sides of "heroes" and "villains" like this and I think that just deserves a lot of respect, regardless of the flaws some perceive in the storytelling. Instead of going the easy way and just create a game with Joel and Ellie as the heroes, killing all the faceless bad guys again (which no doubt would have been very fun and much less emotionally confusing) they went for something truly ambitious and provocative and simply had a lot of balls by blurring the lines between good guys and bad guys like that. The first game was much cleaner and straight and maybe thats what people would have preferred but Part 2 is a lot more bold, real life messy and thought provoking then the first one.

Btw I love Troy Baker rambling. I could listen to that man all day.

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On 7/14/2020 at 8:28 PM, KILLA_KEN1988 said:

The problem with killing Joel that early, is most people just aren’t going to be interested in Abbys story. I feel like the scene with her dad and Marlene should of been the first thing we saw in the game, so straight away we know who it is and why she wants Joel dead, but no we get some randomer with no context just blow his legs off and smash his  face in with a golf club. 
 

i still enjoyed the game, and it’s definitely worth a few playthroughs, but the story leaves a lot to be desired imo. Which is a shame in a game that is all about the story

 

I felt the same way. For me, I feel that introducing Abby into the story the way that they did was terrible. It completely diminishes her story. The entire time I played as Abby, I felt rushed and eager to get it over with. I just wanted to get back to Ellie. Even while playing Abby in the theater/ auditorium, I purposely let Ellie kill me so the game could be done and I could switch back to Ellie.

 

I just feel that it was poorly put together. maybe it would have been best to play as Abby for the beginning of the game. The whole first half could have been her back story. Joel's death would have been the start of the second half. Then you chase down your revenge and it all ends badly.

 

Its like they were trying so hard to make the second game as good as the first one. So they decided to go with the whole "shock and awe" gimmick. The best idea they could come up with was to just kill everyone. I get that it is supposed to be the end of the world and such, but it was just so tasteless. The whole Abby story line was extremely anticlimactic. You would meet her friends knowing that they were just going to die soon. So in turn, you took no effort to pay any attention to any of them. I can't even tell you the name of one of her friends. I knew they were not going to be around long enough to even bother remembering them.

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