Popular Post JoaLoft Posted July 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) I'm late to the party, I know. I've been taking my sweet time with this game to absorb everything and get through it without rushing and making sure I get a platinum trophy as an early completionist. But, it's been difficult to dodge spoilers. People are talking about the game everywhere, either condemning it, or praising it and then explicitly stating why, plot twists included. I think everyone agrees that the gameplay mechanics, the level design and the audiovisual quality are amazing. Some of this stuff is state-of-the-art level. Where everyone seems to disagree, is the story and how the themes are handled. I finished the game tonight, and here's my take on everything. Spoilers ahead, you've been warned. We have several points to address that people have been complaining about, so I'll do my best to cut this up into sections. Point #1: Taking Joel away makes this game shit Although the story could've gone in different ways, a very serious catalyst was needed to send Ellie in that blind rage to make her travel across states and pursue someone. That's the reason why Joel's death occurred. Dina's death would not have been enough, since they do not have the strong bond that Ellie and Joel have. It sucks, I hated seeing Joel go out too, but it makes sense. It's a very bold narrative choice to make and to show that characters in The Last of Us are also just people of flesh and blood that can just be gone in a snap. Let's not forget Sam, Henry, Jesse, or Tess. They were all gone in a flash too. The one thing I would have preferred perhaps, was the inclusion of Joel being a mental projection during Ellie's journey. Where he might show up here and there, and talk to her when she's on her own, figuring things out. That way, we could've had more Joel throughout the game's events. My personal opinion: did Joel deserve what he got? Absolutely not. But that's what made the loss even more heartbreaking, in a world where the flame of righteousness has mostly extinguished. Point #2: "Joel is bad, and Abby is good" or vice versa The biggest issue here for a lot of people seems to be that they still think in typical black-and-white stereotypes. Good versus bad. Virtue versus evil. Some players thought Joel was a bad guy at first for stealing Ellie away (which was difficult for me to comprehend because I never looked at it like that) and lying to her, who then turned out to be good because he saved her, but then turned out to be bad "because the devs are trying to shove morals down your throat by flipping perspectives halfway through the second game". The Last of Us features a post-apocalyptic world that attempts to address its setting and aftermath with more-or-less realistic boundaries. Most of the human population has died at this point. And the people who survived, went through a certain natural selection: survival of the fittest. If you remember Henry from the first game, he commented on how people turned on each other at the beginning of the pandemic. They fought and killed and looted for every bit of food that was left. The weak, the obese, the old, the feeble, the youngest ones: a lot of them fell prey to infected as well. In short: the people who survived all had to resort to terrible actions to stay alive. Including Joel, who has had to smuggle, kill, loot, etc. Just like everyone, just like Tess, Bill, the Fireflies, the WLF, FEDRA, the whole shebang. Everyone has blood on their hands, because that's what it took to make it through. Pure virtue and evil do not exist. Get that out of your head. There's only one big ambiguous grey mass in which perspectives play a big role. The Fireflies were so obsessed with their cure - which was not guaranteed to work and even then would've only sparked a vicious power struggle between factions - that they lost their humanity along the way. They wanted to sacrifice a little girl to achieve their goal. Bad, in the eyes of Joel, so he saved her from that slab so she could have something that at least resembles a normal life. Good, in the eyes of the Fireflies, who want to cure the rest of humanity and think the benefit outweighs the cost. You can argue whether or not there's anything left to save of humanity at this point, because all that's left, are cannibals, murderers, rapists, thieves, smugglers, and the like. I'm on Joel's side here, but I can see people arguing that the end justifies the means, with little to no consideration of human loss. Another example: Joel stands at a pivotal crossroads when he enters that operating room. He affects the course of a lot of different things in that one room. Not only does he save Ellie from death, he literally trades his life for hers at that point. He kills the head surgeon, Abby's dad, to save Ellie. That's the price he pays. Good, in his eyes, because she gets to live and doesn't get cut up like some piece of meat. Bad, in the eyes of Abby, because Joel killed her dad. As an omniscient audience, we know all the characters' backgrounds and motives and see how things play out between everyone, like projectiles deflecting from all sides like some possessed pinball machine. However, from the point of view from these characters, the tone shifts. What Joel sees: a depraved faction which wants to kill a little girl. What Abby sees: a crazy smuggler who took away her father and the potential for a cure. And this applies to all the factions: they all will justify that what they are doing, is correct from their point of view. This goes for David's cannibalistic community, the Pittsburgh looters and the Fireflies in TLOU1, as it does for the Wolves, the Seraphites and the Rattlers in TLOU2. Moral ambiguity. Perspectives. No absolute good or bad. And this is where a space is created for opinions and discussion. I would've tried to do the same thing Joel did, if I was him, and I certainly don't believe he deserved what he got in the end. But, that's my opinion. The sooner you accept that they're all characters with flaws and strengths, the sooner you can look at the events of the game more objectively. And I think the fact that Joel dying made so many people mourn so passionately and made them so angry, doesn't show that the story is nonsensical. It shows that Joel was a very beloved character and very well written, which is a testament to how well Naughty Dog developed him. Point #3: The ending is meaningless Let me stop you right there. If the game ended at the theater, it would've probably been underwhelming. The point they're trying to make, would still stand, but I would have felt that the game was unfinished. However, that entire last bit in Santa Barbara does make a difference and adds to the resolution. A part of that is how control shifts, take note: where it was Abby teaching Ellie a lesson during their first confrontation in the theater and almost killing her, it is Ellie who has control in the second and final confrontation at the coastline. But that's not all. As we stated, Abby thinks her vengeance is justified. Joel killed her dad, she kills Joel. Daddy avenged, case closed. For Ellie however, it's an entirely different story. She's tormented by guilt, about how she handled Joel, despite his best intentions. Her father figure, the only one she ever had (and a pretty damn good one at that), gets taken away from her in a most vicious way, with matters unresolved. This is not just about vengeance for Ellie, it's about processing the loss and letting go, putting Joel to rest in her mind. It's about growing up, moving on. And even, in a few ways, it's about learning how to forgive. The thirst for revenge costs Ellie almost everything by the end. She loses a few fingers, breaks bones, suffers serious wounds and it is implied that Dina leaves her at the end with the baby. Her own sanity almost collapses. Ellie lets go at the end, literally and figuratively. She moves on. Even if we all think Abby deserves more pain, despite her being portrayed as a human character with the same feelings that Ellie has, as they've tried to establish in that second portion of the game. If there's any consolation - and do take note that I actually found some comfort in this, sorry Abby-lovers, if you're out there - Abby does get punished for what she did to Joel, and Ellie and DIna and Tommy and Jesse. Death would have been too kind for her. She gets a hell of a (well-deserved) beating several times, including Ellie's severe ferocity she endures at the end, and her petty revenge does also come with a very hefty price tag. Instead of dying, she gets to live with the knowledge that it cost her all her friends' lives and led her down a path where she was captured, enslaved, starved and hung out to die. In that aspect, Abby learns an even harsher truth than Ellie does. Point #4: Joel's death was disgraceful and he deserved a more heroic one On 3-7-2020 at 9:04 AM, jaehyun1009 said: I can see what ND tried to do, and there were some good foundations for subverting expectations (ugh) but the way they handled Joel’s death was completely disgraceful for reasons that have already been stated by many (will elaborate if needed). On 3-7-2020 at 8:08 PM, SuperSaiyan3985 said: No one's mad at the fact that Joel "died" (I mean, we all saw it coming), it's HOW he died. We were all expecting a somber, heroic death where he dies protecting Ellie or something like that and instead we get Cuckmann's character spitting on his corpse after torturing him. There are ways to write characters off - this is a prime example of how NOT to. I can see that you feel as if Joel's character has been done a disservice by the way he was killed. There's only one problem with that: giving Joel a heroic somber death would be putting Joel into a heroic frame, which is exactly the opposite of what they're trying to achieve. He's not a protagonist or an antagonist. He's a survivor who has been through a lot, and had to resort to terrible deeds to endure. Just another guy. And he could've gone out in any number of brutal ways, despite his good intentions. He's no more important than any of the other characters we've lost along the way. Maybe to us, but not in the bigger scope of things. There's one more reason why Joel was given such a heartbreaking death. You have to remember that although we take about 30-35 hours to beat this whole game which is less than a day and a half (I personally did it in 36, I took my time exploring everywhere), this is the timespan of approx. a year and a half in reality, considering there was no pregnancy yet to speak of on Joel's date of death, baby JJ has already been born for a while at the start of the final act, and it takes Ellie another few months after to travel to Santa Barbara. You'd have to justify Ellie's blind hatred and relentless pursuit for such a long time by hitting several key requirements: The most valuable person to her had to die: Joel. He had to die in front of her eyes. He had to die in a very vicious, slow and painful way. That's why Joel died the way he did. Naughty Dog wants us to feel like Ellie: we see our father figure being mercilessly beaten to death with no chance of defense in front of our very eyes, fully knowing that he risked his own life to save Ellie before multiple times, and to give her something that resembles a normal life. Add on top of that, that Ellie's final conversation with Joel left things a bit unresolved and he never got the forgiveness he sought: you can see why Ellie is prepared to murder everything in her path to get to Abby, initially. I think if we were put in that situation, we'd want to hunt down the people responsible to the ends of the earth as well, no matter how long it took. Point #5: They want us to hate Ellie and love Abby/Abby is a piece of shit and we can never empathize with her 20 hours ago, djb5f said: Where it fell apart for me was the whole Lev/Yara plot line that would not go away. It was inserted to make Abby more likable but I think it backfired. Abby on a revenge angle for losing her father and then close friends was enough. We saw the bonding between them through the storylines so we could appreciate her quest for vengeance in the same way we could for Ellie. 19 hours ago, EIdain said: This is my biggest issue with the game. You've correctly and very eloquently pointed out how everyone in the world will have done many morally questionable things to survive and protect the ones they love. However for the game to succeed in it's message it needed to make me emphasise and to some extent like Abby, it does not. Abby treats the closest person to her awfully, so much so that he's driven into the arms of another woman to find companionship. She then has a pretty dim view of Mel because of this, not realising the reason Owen forms a relationship with her is because of her own behaviour. She seems to get a kick out of torturing others, not only was killing Joel not enough he had to die slowly. Furthermore she was okay with luring someone out from Jackson to torture for information on Joel's whereabouts. When walking through the WLF's FOB she comments on how she'd enjoy torturing some of their prisoners after having a rough morning. When Mel confronts Abby and reinforces my viewpoint, "You're a piece of shit Abby, you always have been", she reacts very angrily and gets upset. This implies to me that she knows there's truth to what Mel says, if there wasn't she would have brushed it off. It's not just the matter of Joel being good or bad either to me. To make me feel more remorse the game had to do a lot better job of making me dislike Ellie, a character like Joel who the audience has had 7 years to grow attached to. It also fails in this department for me. The point was never to necessarily empathize with Abby. If you did, even better for you, but it was primarily to understand why she went to such lengths. That same blind hatred applies to her, just as much as it does to Ellie. It's never stated explicitly, but the fact Abby looked for Joel for years and worked out so much, must mean she was incredibly devoted to murder him. Someone pointed out how irredeemable she is for accepting Joel's help, luring him to their lodge, cornering them and then still killing him. The nuances are there if you look again at the notorious scene from Abby's perspective: right before she kills him, you can see the pity on her face as she looks to Joel, all bloody and beaten up. And right before delivering the final blow, she shakes her head, indicating: "fuck, let's just get this over with". Which also shows a bit of reluctance on her part. Nonetheless, push through with it she did, because she crossed the point of no return a long time ago. And right after, you can spot the dissatisfaction/emptiness on her face. She did not gain any pleasure or real closure out of this. She did what she thought she had to do, to restore balance to righteousness from her perspective. Again, a testament to the very solid acting work of Laura Bailey and directing work of Neil Druckmann. To address the other matter: Mel does point out that Abby "is a piece of shit". And Abby does not parry. She stands there and accepts it, because she knows it's true. Abby is a person, just like any other in this world, who has done vile things and made mistakes, maybe even more so than others. However, she does also grow and start to realize that her image of the world outside of the WLF and Fireflies is distorted. It's also about how she's trying to redeem whatever is left of her tainted soul. At first, she mocks the Scar prisoners, thinking they're all just fanatics, which is what happens when you're in the same bubble where the same theories and opinions are repeated over and over again: Opinions become fact over time, in that scenario. However, when her life is saved by two Seraphites on the run for not adhering to their ideological restrictions, she starts to reconsider that everything is not so black and white. She also has dreams and nightmares that gradually improve, if you noticed, as she tries to soothe her conscience by helping Lev and Yara more and more. But more than anything, "this story about hate" as Naughty Dog described it years back when they revealed it, is not just about Ellie. It's also about Abby. It's about hate's destructive effects and how all-consuming it is eventually. Abby's hatred against Joel. Ellie's hatred against Abby. The WLF's hatred against the "Scars". The Seraphites' hatred against the "Wolves". It's a two-part story, hence how they almost mirror everything in those three days in Seattle, as you play as Ellie first, and then as Abby. You see how they have the same feelings, they struggle with the same problems and their own existence and identity. As Ellie descends into all-consuming rage, Abby climbs and fights an uphill battle, desperately trying to redeem whatever is left of her, even though it is mostly in vain. And about that ending... The core theme at the end may be about forgiveness, but even more so, the core message/question it asks you, is: Is five minutes of satisfaction worth an entire life of misery? These two women, who we're witnessing as they slide further down a path of self-destruction and ruin, are heading towards a breaking point. As said before, this takes place over the course of more than a year. And at that coastline, both women are exhausted after all this time. Mentally, physically and emotionally. For different reasons, obviously, but nevertheless: they are spent. When that final confrontation occurs, Ellie is in control as opposed to at the theater, because Abby already reached her breaking point long ago, due to the consequences of her revenge on Joel. Ellie hasn't ... Yet. Abby is clear about this in what she tells Ellie: "I'm not going to fight you." She's done with the whole thing. Ellie, however, still has a score to settle and engages in combat against Abby's wishes. It's at this point last week, when I finished the game, that I had a very different reaction as opposed to a lot of streamers and YouTubers who were very disappointed. They were treating this as a traditional boss fight and wanted to see blood flow. Abby's blood. When I played, I was concurrently spectating in shock, lower jaw slightly dropped. I was participating, guiding Ellie. I was prepared to do what Ellie wanted. But I only had one thought the further the battle progressed, which I eventually muttered as I kept playing: "Oh my God. She's (Ellie) actually going to kill her (Abby)." I did not feel the satisfaction that others were seeking. I wasn't witnessing a protagonist stopping an antagonist. What I witnessed, were two women trying to destroy each other to the bone, with their last ounces of strength left. And there was a tangible morbid sadness to witnessing that scene. Ellie starts to realize that too: she has Abby pinned down underneath the water and she's about to get what she wanted, but she is emotionally struggling immensely to do what she has been pursuing for so long. It's when she remembers her final conversation with Joel that she reaches her breaking point. She realizes she has to let go, before it consumes all of her, after having lost so much already in her search for justice and vengeance. She wasn't getting any satisfaction out of it, just as Abby didn't when she killed Joel. She doesn't necessarily forgive Abby, nor does she save her: most of all, Ellie saves herself before it is too late. The epilogue The epilogue shows the result of the entire journey. I find it a bit juvenile to see how some people mocked and said: "it's written so poorly: in the end Ellie loses some fingers and plays the guitar badly, lol". The game is full of symbolism and carries more meaning than meets the eye. Ellie struggling to play "Future Days" (the song Joel plays for her at the beginning in Jackson) like she was able to before several times, shows how literally and figuratively she lost a part of herself along the way definitively. She's incomplete. But, after everything, she is finally able to put Joel to rest in her mind, let go and forgive him, as she leaves the guitar behind and walks away from the now desolated farm. And if you remember the lyrics of the song, I think you'll see how the point of the entire journey hits home at the very end before the credits roll: If I ever were to lose you I'd surely lose myself I'm sorry for all the long analyses, but if you dig deeper past the story beats, you'll find that The Last of Us Part II offers a lot of complex philosophical matter to debate, woven into the game's very fabric. And there's a lot more to appreciate in its nuances, if you're willing to see them. That's why I wanted to talk about the story and its ending. That's why I love the entire experience so much. This was my take on how everything came to pass in The Last of Us Part II. Surprisingly, I was able to dodge all of the leaks and spoilers pretty much, so I went in with an open mind. And I really enjoyed the entire story. It sucks that some people had certain expectations, and wanted Joel to be along for the entire ride, but this just goes to show you: never cherish high expectations. You'll only be setting yourself up for disappointment, which is what happened with a huge amount of players, it seems. I'd love to hear what everyone's take is on the subject matter. As long as you don't go blindly hating just for the sake of hating because you didn't get your way. Please support your opinions with solid arguments, and don't let this thread descend into chaos and namecalling. Edited July 7, 2020 by JoaLoft Added Point #4, Point #5, "And about that ending", and "The epilogue" 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jannyhimself Posted July 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 3, 2020 I just wanted to say that this was really well written; grammatically and eloquently. One of the better analysis that I've seen of the game, presented with unbiased perspectives. Well done. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rpgboy1985 Posted July 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 3, 2020 It was refreshing to read an actual perspective on the game, rather than the absolutely toxic shit I've been reading about it. And if its any consolation, I'm behind pretty much every point you make here. Amazing read, more from you please 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaehyun1009 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 I agree mostly with the OP but here’s a bit of my .02c. I can see what ND tried to do, and there were some good foundations for subverting expectations (ugh) but the way they handled Joel’s death was completely disgraceful for reasons that have already been stated by many (will elaborate if needed). It would’ve been a lot better handled IMO if roles were reversed a little and Abby’s crew was the one who saved Joel & Tommy. That would’ve been at least a somewhat legitimate reason why they let their guard down. This is just one example of overly contrived scenarios in this game that falls flat in its face. In the end they only ended up butchering the original characters and rid of their charm while none of the new characters were really compelling enough to fill The void left by Joel and Ellie. Admittedly it was an ambitious, unconventional way to try to move the story in a different direction, but unfortunately it was a disappointing experiment and does not live up to their usual quality storytelling that used to define their games. I will just chalk this one off as one Ellie’s bad dreams. There’s a lot more I want to talk about regarding the story but it’s almost bedtime here so I’ll leave it at this for now. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTorito Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 I think the main problems with the story are first, how bad it is organized, like seriously, it’s terrible, specially from a gameplay perspective. The second one, that is not a problem itself, is how shitty it makes you feel, it’s relentless, hit after hit, I think that is very hard to chew, specially from a casual perspective, not to mention is aggravated for how bonded we are to the game and the previous protagonists from the first game, it’s not like it is a fresh take for all of us. I guess that’s what the bomb ticked for most. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SuperSaiyan3985 Posted July 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) On 7/2/2020 at 10:12 PM, JoaLoft said: I'm late to the party, I know. I've been taking my sweet time with this game to absorb everything and get through it without rushing and making sure I get a platinum trophy as an early completionist. But, it's been difficult to dodge spoilers. People are talking about the game everywhere, either condemning it, or praising it and then explicitly stating why, plot twists included. I think everyone agrees that the gameplay mechanics, the level design and the audiovisual quality are amazing. Some of this stuff is state-of-the-art level. Where everyone seems to disagree, is the story and how the themes are handled. I finished the game tonight, and here's my take on everything. Spoilers ahead, you've been warned. We have several points to address that people have been complaining about, so I'll do my best to cut this up into sections. Point #1: Taking Joel away makes this game shit Although the story could've gone in different ways, a very serious catalyst was needed to send Ellie in that blind rage to make her travel across states and pursue someone. That's the reason why Joel's death occurred. Dina's death would not have been enough, since they do not have the strong bond that Ellie and Joel have. It sucks, I hated seeing Joel go out too, but it makes sense. It's a very bold narrative choice to make and to show that characters in The Last of Us are also just people of flesh and blood that can just be gone in a snap. Let's not forget Sam, Henry, Jesse, or Tess. They were all gone in a flash too. The one thing I would have preferred perhaps, was the inclusion of Joel being a mental projection during Ellie's journey. Where he might show up here and there, and talk to her when she's on her own, figuring things out. That way, we could've had more Joel throughout the game's events. My personal opinion: did Joel deserve what he got? Absolutely not. But that's what made the loss even more heartbreaking, in a world where the flame of righteousness has mostly extinguished. Point #2: "Joel is bad, and Abby is good" or vice versa The biggest issue here for a lot of people seems to be that they still think in typical black-and-white stereotypes. Good versus bad. Virtue versus evil. Some players thought Joel was a bad guy at first for stealing Ellie away (which was difficult for me to comprehend because I never looked at it like that) and lying to her, who then turned out to be good because he saved her, but then turned out to be bad "because the devs are trying to shove morals down your throat by flipping perspectives halfway through the second game". The Last of Us features a post-apocalyptic world that attempts to address its setting and aftermath with more-or-less realistic boundaries. Most of the human population has died at this point. And the people who survived, went through a certain natural selection: survival of the fittest. If you remember Henry from the first game, he commented on how people turned on each other at the beginning of the pandemic. They fought and killed and looted for every bit of food that was left. The weak, the obese, the old, the feeble, the youngest ones: a lot of them fell prey to infected as well. In short: the people who survived all had to resort to terrible actions to stay alive. Including Joel, who has had to smuggle, kill, loot, etc. Just like everyone, just like Tess, Bill, the Fireflies, the WLF, FEDRA, the whole shebang. Everyone has blood on their hands, because that's what it took to make it through. Pure virtue and evil do not exist. Get that out of your head. There's only one big ambiguous grey mass in which perspectives play a big role. The Fireflies were so obsessed with their cure - which was not guaranteed to work and even then would've only sparked a vicious power struggle between factions - that they lost their humanity along the way. They wanted to sacrifice a little girl to achieve their goal. Bad, in the eyes of Joel, so he saved her from that slab so she could have something that at least resembles a normal life. Good, in the eyes of the Fireflies, who want to cure the rest of humanity and think the benefit outweighs the cost. You can argue whether or not there's anything left to save of humanity at this point, because all that's left, are cannibals, murderers, rapists, thieves, smugglers, and the like. I'm on Joel's side here, but I can see people arguing that the end justifies the means, with little to no consideration of human loss. Another example: Joel stands at a pivotal crossroads when he enters that operating room. He affects the course of a lot of different things in that one room. Not only does he save Ellie from death, he literally trades his life for hers at that point. He kills the head surgeon, Abby's dad, to save Ellie. That's the price he pays. Good, in his eyes, because she gets to live and doesn't get cut up like some piece of meat. Bad, in the eyes of Abby, because Joel killed her dad. As an omniscient audience, we know all the characters' backgrounds and motives and see how things play out between everyone, like projectiles deflecting from all sides like some possessed pinball machine. However, from the point of view from these characters, the tone shifts. What Joel sees: a depraved faction which wants to kill a little girl. What Abby sees: a crazy smuggler who took away her father and the potential for a cure. And this applies to all the factions: they all will justify that what they are doing, is correct from their point of view. This goes for David's cannibalistic community, the Pittsburgh looters and the Fireflies in TLOU1, as it does for the Wolves, the Seraphites and the Rattlers in TLOU2. Moral ambiguity. Perspectives. No absolute good or bad. And this is where a space is created for opinions and discussion. I would've tried to do the same thing Joel did, if I was him, and I certainly don't believe he deserved what he got in the end. But, that's my opinion. The sooner you accept that they're all characters with flaws and strengths, the sooner you can look at the events of the game more objectively. And I think the fact that Joel dying made so many people mourn so passionately and made them so angry, doesn't show that the story is nonsensical. It shows that Joel was a very beloved character and very well written, which is a testament to how well Naughty Dog developed him. Point #3: The ending is meaningless Let me stop you right there. If the game ended at the theater, it would've probably been underwhelming. The point they're trying to make, would still stand, but I would have felt that the game was unfinished. However, that entire last bit in Santa Barbara does make a difference and adds to the resolution. A part of that is how control shifts, take note: where it was Abby teaching Ellie a lesson during their first confrontation in the theater and almost killing her, it is Ellie who has control in the second and final confrontation at the coastline. But that's not all. As we stated, Abby thinks her vengeance is justified. Joel killed her dad, she kills Joel. Daddy avenged, case closed. For Ellie however, it's an entirely different story. She's tormented by guilt, about how she handled Joel, despite his best intentions. Her father figure, the only one she ever had (and a pretty damn good one at that), gets taken away from her in a most vicious way, with matters unresolved. This is not just about vengeance for Ellie, it's about processing the loss and letting go, putting Joel to rest in her mind. It's about growing up, moving on. And even, in a few ways, it's about learning how to forgive. The thirst for revenge costs Ellie almost everything by the end. She loses a few fingers, breaks bones, suffers serious wounds and it is implied that Dina leaves her at the end with the baby. Her own sanity almost collapses. Ellie lets go at the end, literally and figuratively. She moves on. Even if we all think Abby deserves more pain, despite her being portrayed as a human character with the same feelings that Ellie has, as they've tried to establish in that second portion of the game. If there's any consolation - and do take note that I actually found some comfort in this, sorry Abby-lovers, if you're out there - Abby does get punished for what she did to Joel, and Ellie and DIna and Tommy and Jesse. Death would have been too kind for her. She gets a hell of a (well-deserved) beating several times, including Ellie's severe ferocity she endures at the end, and her petty revenge does also come with a very hefty price tag. Instead of dying, she gets to live with the knowledge that it cost her all her friends' lives and led her down a path where she was captured, enslaved, starved and hung out to die. In that aspect, Abby learns an even harsher truth than Ellie does. This was my take on how everything came to pass in The Last of Us Part II. Surprisingly, I was able to dodge all of the leaks and spoilers pretty much, so I went in with an open mind. And I really enjoyed the entire story. It sucks that some people had certain expectations, and wanted Joel to be along for the entire ride, but this just goes to show you: never cherish high expectations. You'll only be setting yourself up for disappointment, which is what happened with a huge amount of players, it seems. I'd love to hear what everyone's take is on the subject matter. As long as you don't go blindly hating just for the sake of hating because you didn't get your way. Please support your opinions with solid arguments, and don't let this thread descend into chaos and namecalling. Addressing Point #1 Joel's death makes ZERO sense. You're telling me that Abby happens to meet Tommy and Joel by pure chance? Fine, I'll give Cuckmann that one. Oh but no, they walk into a room full of complete strangers, proceed to disclose their real names and where they're from, and are all lax about the situation. Just look at Tommy's posture, tone, and attitude. He treats them like close friends and offers to help them restock before they head back out, like dafuq? These two have been surviving in a post-pandemic hellish landscape for the past 25 years. If the first game showed us anything, it's that they (Joel especially) are hardened survivors who have learned not to trust anyone. The way they behaved in that room with Abby and her crew is completely out of character. Not to mention they went in completely unarmed!!! Now that I've pointed out how it makes no logical sense how they landed in such a scenario, it's time to address how they absolutely DISGRACED Joel. Us fans have been waiting seven years to see his story continue, and he's brutally murdered like a bitch in the first two hours. What adds salt to the wound is the FALSE MARKETING that had Joel aged up in all the trailers to make us think he was present deep into the game, when in reality he's out of the picture before the plot kicks off. That is a very slimy decision on behalf of Naughty Dog and I hope they get sued for it. No one's mad at the fact that Joel "died" (I mean, we all saw it coming), it's HOW he died. We were all expecting a somber, heroic death where he dies protecting Ellie or something like that and instead we get Cuckmann's character spitting on his corpse after torturing him. There are ways to write characters off - this is a prime example of how NOT to. Addressing Point #2 I agree with pretty much everything you said. Joel is no saint, his actions at the end of the first game show just how human he is. It's easy for us to blame him for dooming humanity, but I think only parents can truly relate to Joel's decision. It's clear Ellie became his surrogate daughter after all they've been through, and especially after losing Sarah, it's obvious he wasn't going to let that happen again. Whether it was for selfish reasons or because he wanted a better life for her is up for debate. Regardless, he was heavily mistreated in Part 2. Addressing Point #3 I agree to an extent, that Abby was punished by losing all her friends, but at the same time, did it matter as much as we think to her? She was leaving the WLF to spend the rest of her days with Lev anyway, so she most likely would've had to abandon those friends regardless. What infuriates me and many fans to no end is that we all wanted to see Abby die, plain and simple. She comes into the picture with no context, no background - we have no idea who she is or what she wants and we're forced to watch as she humiliates and kills a beloved character. A character, we spent 15 hours during the first game getting to know. Personally I came to admire Joel so much that watching that scene is traumatic for me, because it's like seeing a real human being being abused and made to suffer (call it silly, but the fact that I feel that way is a testament to how well-written he is). My point is, the game already paints Abby in such a negative light, that getting players to empathize with her is a huge pill to swallow. Had they shown what happened to her father first, then having her kill Joel, would've made things a little less jarring. Making us play as her for the entire latter half of the game with characters that are irrelevant to Ellie and Joel's arc is just too much to ask. I was really enjoying Ellie's revenge quest, but playing as Abby derailed the entire thing for me. All in all, despite having gone into this game without spoilers and the intent to enjoy it, I feel nothing but contempt. I feel this game tarnishes the legacy of the first one and should never have been made. My skepticisms at first were regarding the politics, but I instantly forgot about that once I saw how utterly terrible the writing is. I hope Cuckmann leaves the company, or they at least bring back a less egotistical director like Amy Hennig or Bruce Straley. The future of Naughty Dog is bleak, and I will never be excited for another one of their games so long as Cuckmann's there. P.S. Thanks for justifying why you enjoy the game unlike most of the idiotic fanboys that just suck it off without explaining why. I hope we can have a civil conversation. On 7/3/2020 at 3:14 AM, BlackTorito said: I think the main problems with the story are first, how bad it is organized, like seriously, it’s terrible, specially from a gameplay perspective. The second one, that is not a problem itself, is how shitty it makes you feel, it’s relentless, hit after hit, I think that is very hard to chew, specially from a casual perspective, not to mention is aggravated for how bonded we are to the game and the previous protagonists from the first game, it’s not like it is a fresh take for all of us. I guess that’s what the bomb ticked for most. The first game is essentially perfect and had great pacing, very likable characters, and a clear vision so I don't see where you're coming from with that first point. The second game is a jumbled mess that disgraces the characters we came to know and love and emphasizes way too much on the new characters that the players come off hating from the start. On 7/3/2020 at 3:04 AM, jaehyun1009 said: I agree mostly with the OP but here’s a bit of my .02c. I can see what ND tried to do, and there were some good foundations for subverting expectations (ugh) but the way they handled Joel’s death was completely disgraceful for reasons that have already been stated by many (will elaborate if needed). It would’ve been a lot better handled IMO if roles were reversed a little and Abby’s crew was the one who saved Joel & Tommy. That would’ve been at least a somewhat legitimate reason why they let their guard down. This is just one example of overly contrived scenarios in this game that falls flat in its face. In the end they only ended up butchering the original characters and rid of their charm while none of the new characters were really compelling enough to fill The void left by Joel and Ellie. Admittedly it was an ambitious, unconventional way to try to move the story in a different direction, but unfortunately it was a disappointing experiment and does not live up to their usual quality storytelling that used to define their games. I will just chalk this one off as one Ellie’s bad dreams. There’s a lot more I want to talk about regarding the story but it’s almost bedtime here so I’ll leave it at this for now. It's only more infuriating when you remember Joel literally SAVED Abby's life beforehand, and it seems she either forgot all about that or doesn't care. The least she could've done is make it quick as recompense, but no, she sow tortures him to death in one of the worst ways imaginable. This shows just how shitty of a person Abby is and makes it very difficult for the audience to give her any form of credence in redemption. Edited July 4, 2020 by SuperSaiyan3985 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTorito Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 @SuperSaiyan3985 Where do you see in my post I am referencing the first game? I’m talking about the second part obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ShadowReplicant Posted July 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 3, 2020 3 hours ago, SuperSaiyan3985 said: I hope we can have a civil conversation. Says the guy who doesn't even have the decency to call the director by his real name. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TJ_Solo Posted July 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 3, 2020 14 hours ago, BlackTorito said: I think the main problems with the story are first, how bad it is organized, like seriously, it’s terrible, specially from a gameplay perspective. The second one, that is not a problem itself, is how shitty it makes you feel, it’s relentless, hit after hit, I think that is very hard to chew, specially from a casual perspective, not to mention is aggravated for how bonded we are to the game and the previous protagonists from the first game, it’s not like it is a fresh take for all of us. I guess that’s what the bomb ticked for most. Maybe I am used to games and stories that are told out of order but then tie everything together later like Westworld, Kingdom Hearts, Yakuza, Memento. This game has dual protagonists with stories that are joined in the past, present, and presumably future parts of it. The feelings that stir in stories with a grim, dark setting tend to match the tone. Do you watch TWD or Sons of Anarchy and expect to feel the same emotions as if you just watched Frozen or MLP? What does it being a fresh take matters? How many games or stories do you partake in that are fresh takes in their respective medium? Genre is a thing. It helps people make products without needing to reinvent the wheel everytime. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTorito Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 7 hours ago, TJ_Solo said: Maybe I am used to games and stories that are told out of order but then tie everything together later like Westworld, Kingdom Hearts, Yakuza, Memento. This game has dual protagonists with stories that are joined in the past, present, and presumably future parts of it. The feelings that stir in stories with a grim, dark setting tend to match the tone. Do you watch TWD or Sons of Anarchy and expect to feel the same emotions as if you just watched Frozen or MLP? What does it being a fresh take matters? How many games or stories do you partake in that are fresh takes in their respective medium? Genre is a thing. It helps people make products without needing to reinvent the wheel everytime. Congrats I guess? I have also watched those, you are not the only one “accustomed”, still, none of them cuts you in the climax of one story to try to connect to the opposite side of the story. Man, what are you talking about? Fresh take means its not the first time you play the story, not the genre. I think I have clearly said “it’s not a problem per se”, I just said is hard to swallow. Can you understand it being hard to chew for some people? I wasn’t even talking about me. And still, I don’t think those shows has the same ratio per hour of violence and deaths than Last of Us 2, not even GoT in it’s best early seasons got that many characters killed in hours, not talking about the violence in between too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ_Solo Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Quote Congrats I guess? I have also watched those, you are not the only one “accustomed”, still, none of them cuts you in the climax of one story to try to connect to the opposite side of the story. they all do, actually. Quote Man, what are you talking about? Fresh take means its not the first time you play the story, not the genre. I think I have clearly said “it’s not a problem per se”, I just said is hard to swallow. Can you understand it being hard to chew for some people? I wasn’t even talking about me. Sigh. I get it. The point still stands. The viewing of the story from another character's perspective is how the story is told. Quote And still, I don’t think those shows has the same ratio per hour of violence and deaths than Last of Us 2, not even GoT in it’s best early seasons got that many characters killed in hours, not talking about the violence in between too. Not arguing about the ratios being the same. Merely the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSaiyan3985 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 19 hours ago, BlackTorito said: @SuperSaiyan3985 Where do you see in my post I am referencing the first game? I’m talking about the second part obviously. My mistake, don't know why I thought that. 18 hours ago, ShadowReplicant said: Says the guy who doesn't even have the decency to call the director by his real name. I'm referring to being civil with people on here, not outside parties. I hate the director and will call him what I like. Shouldn't make a difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNocturnalOwl Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 On 7/3/2020 at 7:08 PM, SuperSaiyan3985 said: No one's mad at the fact that Joel "died" (I mean, we all saw it coming), it's HOW he died. We were all expecting a somber, heroic death where he dies protecting Ellie or something like that and instead we get Cuckmann's character spitting on his corpse after torturing him. There are ways to write characters off - this is a prime example of how NOT to. He did die protecting Ellie though, of course it came a few years later but it doesn't change the fact Joel wouldn't have died if he hadn't saved Ellie from that operating table. It strengthens the decision made in the first game over creating a new scenario for Joel to save Ellie from that would have diminished it. We also wouldn't be playing as Ellie had it not been for Joel's decision, so I think it would be rather hypocritical of the lead director if he hated the character which he doesn't like some people think. Also there's the point of how these games are inspired by No Country for Old Men, you should check out how that treats its protagonist. This isn't anything new. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Valyrious Posted July 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 5, 2020 This is, without question, the best video I have seen on the subject. Simple, concise, and to the point. Agreed with Neil. This is the video people should watch after they finish the game. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailking Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 7/3/2020 at 2:08 PM, SuperSaiyan3985 said: That is a very slimy decision on behalf of Naughty Dog and I hope they get sued for it. There's no legal basis to sue them for the trailers. If it happens, it will be thrown out of court right away. I have no problem with that they did plot wise, but they shouldn't have faked the trailers. That was definitely slimy. Fortunately it didn't affect me personally since I avoided everything after the first E3 trailer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunkerbudy Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 I like this one even better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb5f Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 I enjoyed the story and thought the framework was great. Love the idea of looking at different perspectives as things are seldom black/white, but instead many shades of grey. Joel was a hero but a flawed hero and his decisioning at the end of the first game showed that. He made a selfish decision to humanity and caused a lot of collateral damage in the process. Where it fell apart for me was the whole Lev/Yara plot line that would not go away. It was inserted to make Abby more likable but I think it backfired. Abby on a revenge angle for losing her father and then close friends was enough. We saw the bonding between them through the storylines so we could appreciate her quest for vengeance in the same way we could for Ellie. Ellie not finishing the job on Abby made sense as well. You just come to the realization of what’s the point. She understood that Abby lost her father because of her/Joel and understood her motivations. It would not have made her feel any better Nd possibly worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunkerbudy Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, djb5f said: Where it fell apart for me was the whole Lev/Yara plot line that would not go away. It was inserted to make Abby more likable but I think it backfired. Abby on a revenge angle for losing her father and then close friends was enough. We saw the bonding between them through the storylines so we could appreciate her quest for vengeance in the same way we could for Ellie. I don't think there intend was to make you like her more. The Lev/Yana story for me was the way Abby found closure with her trauma, because killing Joel did not fix this. She just found something new to live for, she was losing everything at that point and was not giving up on her friends and the two kids. After losing all but Lev, that feeling only grew. I don't see this as look at Abby, she is so wonderfull!!! It's just a glimpse of how she deals with all the stuf happining and the nightmares she still has. (Thats how I look at it.) 6 minutes ago, djb5f said: Ellie not finishing the job on Abby made sense as well. You just come to the realization of what’s the point. She understood that Abby lost her father because of her/Joel and understood her motivations. It would not have made her feel any better Nd possibly worse. If I remember correctly, Ellie does not know that... Ellie thinks Abby got revenge for ruining the plans for a cure. She says that to her in the theater. "Its me you want" While Abby her quest had nothing to do with Ellie, she was just out for Joels Life. I also dont't think Ellie forgave Abby, but she just let go knowing all of this is not fixing anything. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb5f Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 11 minutes ago, Bunkerbudy said: I don't think there intend was to make you like her more. The Lev/Yana story for me was the way Abby found closure with her trauma, because killing Joel did not fix this. She just found something new to live for, she was losing everything at that point and was not giving up on her friends and the two kids. After losing all but Lev, that feeling only grew. I don't see this as look at Abby, she is so wonderfull!!! It's just a glimpse of how she deals with all the stuf happining and the nightmares she still has. (Thats how I look at it.) If I remember correctly, Ellie does not know that... Ellie thinks Abby got revenge for ruining the plans for a cure. She says that to her in the theater. "Its me you want" While Abby her quest had nothing to do with Ellie, she was just out for Joels Life. I also dont't think Ellie forgave Abby, but she just let go knowing all of this is not fixing anything. Good points. No matter the intentions, the Lev/Yara storyline just seemed forced to me. She seemed to give up on her friends in the process, turning against the Wolves. You could be right on the theatre scene where Ellie told Abby that she understood - that it was solely about ruining the chance for a cure and not anything about Abby’s father being killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EIdain Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 03/07/2020 at 3:12 AM, JoaLoft said: Point #2: "Joel is bad, and Abby is good" or vice versa The sooner you accept that they're all characters with flaws and strengths, the sooner you can look at the events of the game more objectively. And I think the fact that Joel dying made so many people mourn so passionately and made them so angry, doesn't show that the story is nonsensical. It shows that Joel was a very beloved character and very well written, which is a testament to how well Naughty Dog developed him. This is my biggest issue with the game. You've correctly and very eloquently pointed out how everyone in the world will have done many morally questionable things to survive and protect the ones they love. However for the game to succeed in it's message it needed to make me emphasise and to some extent like Abby, it does not. Abby treats the closest person to her awfully, so much so that he's driven into the arms of another woman to find companionship. She then has a pretty dim view of Mel because of this, not realising the reason Owen forms a relationship with her is because of her own behaviour. She seems to get a kick out of torturing others, not only was killing Joel not enough he had to die slowly. Furthermore she was okay with luring someone out from Jackson to torture for information on Joel's whereabouts. When walking through the WLF's FOB she comments on how she'd enjoy torturing some of their prisoners after having a rough morning. When Mel confronts Abby and reinforces my viewpoint, "You're a piece of shit Abby, you always have been", she reacts very angrily and gets upset. This implies to me that she knows there's truth to what Mel says, if there wasn't she would have brushed it off. The game does an extremely poor job of highlighting any redeemable qualities she has outside of the plot surrounding Lev/Yara which I feel the same as dj about. 7 minutes ago, djb5f said: No matter the intentions, the Lev/Yara storyline just seemed forced to me. She seemed to give up on her friends in the process, turning against the Wolves. Her actions in helping them escape the forest more than made up for Yara ordering Lev to cut her down, saving her life, as they wouldn't have escaped the forest alive without Abby's help. She didn't even know the pair 24 hours earlier, yet her only motivation for helping them is one bad dream. Now her character does an unbelievable heel turn where she's goes above and beyond not once, but twice for the siblings, as well as turn against her own people. Very odd when the game makes out she's far more loyal to the WLF than a character like Owen. I actually think if Owen was swapped with Abby it would've been easier for me to emphasise, as he's the only one of that group with any redeemable character traits, despite how poorly he treats Mel at the end of the game. It's not just the matter of Joel being good or bad either to me. To make me feel more remorse the game had to do a lot better job of making me dislike Ellie, a character like Joel who the audience has had 7 years to grow attached to. It also fails in this department for me. If the only reason for Abby's friends dying wasn't because in every scenario they either attack Ellie or the person she loves most (Dina) and force her to act in self defence perhaps I might have been more conflicted. The only tough part for me was her beating Abby's location out Nora. However when you see Abby having no adverse reaction to similar treatment of Joel, as well as wanting to do similar to Scar's in the FOB, in contrast to Ellie's response it further underlies one character being better than the other. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherrywood Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 Really, agree with everything you said. Also would add that, if Ellie had killed Abby at the end, Lev would have the same reason to go after Ellie as Ellie did to go after Abby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoaLoft Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 I've been keeping tabs on the thread, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed with how civil pretty much all responses have been. Kudos to all of you, it shows that people can agree or disagree about certain aspects of the game, and respect the other's opinion as long as it's supported with logical arguments. Would love to dive a bit deeper on what some of you have mentioned, from my perspective, so I'd like to add what else I saw when I was playing, to help put everything into context. Point #4: Joel's death was disgraceful and he deserved a more heroic one On 3-7-2020 at 9:04 AM, jaehyun1009 said: I can see what ND tried to do, and there were some good foundations for subverting expectations (ugh) but the way they handled Joel’s death was completely disgraceful for reasons that have already been stated by many (will elaborate if needed). On 3-7-2020 at 8:08 PM, SuperSaiyan3985 said: No one's mad at the fact that Joel "died" (I mean, we all saw it coming), it's HOW he died. We were all expecting a somber, heroic death where he dies protecting Ellie or something like that and instead we get Cuckmann's character spitting on his corpse after torturing him. There are ways to write characters off - this is a prime example of how NOT to. I can see that you feel as if Joel's character has been done a disservice by the way he was killed. There's only one problem with that: giving Joel a heroic somber death would be putting Joel into a heroic frame, which is exactly the opposite of what they're trying to achieve. He's not a protagonist or an antagonist. He's a survivor who has been through a lot, and had to resort to terrible deeds to endure. Just another guy. And he could've gone out in any number of brutal ways, despite his good intentions. He's no more important than any of the other characters we've lost along the way. Maybe to us, but not in the bigger scope of things. There's one more reason why Joel was given such a heartbreaking death. You have to remember that although we take about 30-35 hours to beat this whole game which is less than a day and a half (I personally did it in 36, I took my time exploring everywhere), this is the timespan of approx. a year and a half in reality, considering there was no pregnancy yet to speak of on Joel's date of death, baby JJ has already been born for a while at the start of the final act, and it takes Ellie another few months after to travel to Santa Barbara. You'd have to justify Ellie's blind hatred and relentless pursuit for such a long time by hitting several key requirements: The most valuable person to her had to die: Joel. He had to die in front of her eyes. He had to die in a very vicious, slow and painful way. That's why Joel died the way he did. Naughty Dog wants us to feel like Ellie: we see our father figure being mercilessly beaten to death with no chance of defense in front of our very eyes, fully knowing that he risked his own life to save Ellie before multiple times, and to give her something that resembles a normal life. Add on top of that, that Ellie's final conversation with Joel left things a bit unresolved and he never got the forgiveness he sought: you can see why Ellie is prepared to murder everything in her path to get to Abby, initially. I think if we were put in that situation, we'd want to hunt down the people responsible to the ends of the earth as well, no matter how long it took. Point #5: They want us to hate Ellie and love Abby/Abby is a piece of shit and we can never empathize with her 11 hours ago, djb5f said: Where it fell apart for me was the whole Lev/Yara plot line that would not go away. It was inserted to make Abby more likable but I think it backfired. Abby on a revenge angle for losing her father and then close friends was enough. We saw the bonding between them through the storylines so we could appreciate her quest for vengeance in the same way we could for Ellie. 10 hours ago, EIdain said: This is my biggest issue with the game. You've correctly and very eloquently pointed out how everyone in the world will have done many morally questionable things to survive and protect the ones they love. However for the game to succeed in it's message it needed to make me emphasise and to some extent like Abby, it does not. Abby treats the closest person to her awfully, so much so that he's driven into the arms of another woman to find companionship. She then has a pretty dim view of Mel because of this, not realising the reason Owen forms a relationship with her is because of her own behaviour. She seems to get a kick out of torturing others, not only was killing Joel not enough he had to die slowly. Furthermore she was okay with luring someone out from Jackson to torture for information on Joel's whereabouts. When walking through the WLF's FOB she comments on how she'd enjoy torturing some of their prisoners after having a rough morning. When Mel confronts Abby and reinforces my viewpoint, "You're a piece of shit Abby, you always have been", she reacts very angrily and gets upset. This implies to me that she knows there's truth to what Mel says, if there wasn't she would have brushed it off. It's not just the matter of Joel being good or bad either to me. To make me feel more remorse the game had to do a lot better job of making me dislike Ellie, a character like Joel who the audience has had 7 years to grow attached to. It also fails in this department for me. The point was never to necessarily empathize with Abby. If you did, even better for you, but it was primarily to understand why she went to such lengths. That same blind hatred applies to her, just as much as it does to Ellie. It's never stated explicitly, but the fact Abby looked for Joel for years and worked out so much, must mean she was incredibly devoted to murder him. Someone pointed out how irredeemable she is for accepting Joel's help, luring him to their lodge, cornering them and then still killing him. The nuances are there if you look again at the notorious scene from Abby's perspective: right before she kills him, you can see the pity on her face as she looks to Joel, all bloody and beaten up. And right before delivering the final blow, she shakes her head, indicating: "fuck, let's just get this over with". Which also shows a bit of reluctance on her part. Nonetheless, push through with it she did, because she crossed the point of no return a long time ago. And right after, you can spot the dissatisfaction/emptiness on her face. She did not gain any pleasure or real closure out of this. She did what she thought she had to do, to restore balance to righteousness from her perspective. Again, a testament to the very solid acting work of Laura Bailey and directing work of Neil Druckmann. To address the other matter: Mel does point out that Abby "is a piece of shit". And Abby does not parry. She stands there and accepts it, because she knows it's true. Abby is a person, just like any other in this world, who has done vile things and made mistakes, maybe even more so than others. However, she does also grow and start to realize that her image of the world outside of the WLF and Fireflies is distorted. It's also about how she's trying to redeem whatever is left of her tainted soul. At first, she mocks the Scar prisoners, thinking they're all just fanatics, which is what happens when you're in the same bubble where the same theories and opinions are repeated over and over again: Opinions become fact over time, in that scenario. However, when her life is saved by two Seraphites on the run for not adhering to their ideological restrictions, she starts to reconsider that everything is not so black and white. She also has dreams and nightmares that gradually improve, if you noticed, as she tries to soothe her conscience by helping Lev and Yara more and more. But more than anything, "this story about hate" as Naughty Dog described it years back when they revealed it, is not just about Ellie. It's also about Abby. It's about hate's destructive effects and how all-consuming it is eventually. Abby's hatred against Joel. Ellie's hatred against Abby. The WLF's hatred against the "Scars". The Seraphites' hatred against the "Wolves". It's a two-part story, hence how they almost mirror everything in those three days in Seattle, as you play as Ellie first, and then as Abby. You see how they have the same feelings, they struggle with the same problems and their own existence and identity. As Ellie descends into all-consuming rage, Abby climbs and fights an uphill battle, desperately trying to redeem whatever is left of her, even though it is mostly in vain. And about that ending... The core theme at the end may be about forgiveness, but even more so, the core message/question it asks you, is: Is five minutes of satisfaction worth an entire life of misery? These two women, who we're witnessing as they slide further down a path of self-destruction and ruin, are heading towards a breaking point. As said before, this takes place over the course of more than a year. And at that coastline, both women are exhausted after all this time. Mentally, physically and emotionally. For different reasons, obviously, but nevertheless: they are spent. When that final confrontation occurs, Ellie is in control as opposed to at the theater, because Abby already reached her breaking point long ago, due to the consequences of her revenge on Joel. Ellie hasn't ... Yet. Abby is clear about this in what she tells Ellie: "I'm not going to fight you." She's done with the whole thing. Ellie, however, still has a score to settle and engages in combat against Abby's wishes. It's at this point last week, when I finished the game, that I had a very different reaction as opposed to a lot of streamers and YouTubers who were very disappointed. They were treating this as a traditional boss fight and wanted to see blood flow. Abby's blood. When I played, I was concurrently spectating in shock, lower jaw slightly dropped. I was participating, guiding Ellie. I was prepared to do what Ellie wanted. But I only had one thought the further the battle progressed, which I eventually muttered as I kept playing: "Oh my God. She's (Ellie) actually going to kill her (Abby)." I did not feel the satisfaction that others were seeking. I wasn't witnessing a protagonist stopping an antagonist. What I witnessed, were two women trying to destroy each other to the bone, with their last ounces of strength left. And there was a tangible morbid sadness to witnessing that scene. Ellie starts to realize that too: she has Abby pinned down underneath the water and she's about to get what she wanted, but she is emotionally struggling immensely to do what she has been pursuing for so long. It's when she remembers her final conversation with Joel that she reaches her breaking point. She realizes she has to let go, before it consumes all of her, after having lost so much already in her search for justice and vengeance. She wasn't getting any satisfaction out of it, just as Abby didn't when she killed Joel. She doesn't necessarily forgive Abby, nor does she save her: most of all, Ellie saves herself before it is too late. The epilogue The epilogue shows the result of the entire journey. I find it a bit juvenile to see how some people mocked and said: "it's written so poorly: in the end Ellie loses some fingers and plays the guitar badly, lol". The game is full of symbolism and carries more meaning than meets the eye. Ellie struggling to play "Future Days" (the song Joel plays for her at the beginning in Jackson) like she was able to before several times, shows how literally and figuratively she lost a part of herself along the way definitively. She's incomplete. But, after everything, she is finally able to put Joel to rest in her mind, let go and forgive him, as she leaves the guitar behind and walks away from the now desolated farm. And if you remember the lyrics of the song, I think you'll see how the point of the entire journey hits home at the very end before the credits roll: If I ever were to lose you I'd surely lose myself I'm sorry for all the long analyses, but if you dig deeper past the story beats, you'll find that The Last of Us Part II offers a lot of complex philosophical matter to debate, woven into the game's very fabric. And there's a lot more to appreciate in its nuances, if you're willing to see them. That's why I wanted to talk about the story and its ending. That's why I love the entire experience so much. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakebit10 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 27 minutes ago, JoaLoft said: I've been keeping tabs on the thread, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed with how civil pretty much all responses have been. Kudos to all of you, it shows that people can agree or disagree about certain aspects of the game, and respect the other's opinion as long as it's supported with logical arguments. Would love to dive a bit deeper on what some of you have mentioned, from my perspective, so I'd like to add what else I saw when I was playing, to help put everything into context. Point #4: Joel's death was disgraceful and he deserved a more heroic one I can see that you feel as if Joel's character has been done a disservice by the way he was killed. There's only one problem with that: giving Joel a heroic somber death would be putting Joel into a heroic frame, which is exactly the opposite of what they're trying to achieve. He's not a protagonist or an antagonist. He's a survivor who has been through a lot, and had to resort to terrible deeds to endure. Just another guy. And he could've gone out in any number of brutal ways, despite his good intentions. He's no more important than any of the other characters we've lost along the way. Maybe to us, but not in the bigger scope of things. There's one more reason why Joel was given such a heartbreaking death. You have to remember that although we take about 30-35 hours to beat this whole game which is less than a day and a half (I personally did it in 36, I took my time exploring everywhere), this is the timespan of approx. a year and a half in reality, considering there was no pregnancy yet to speak of on Joel's date of death, baby JJ has already been born for a while at the start of the final act, and it takes Ellie another few months after to travel to Santa Barbara. You'd have to justify Ellie's blind hatred and relentless pursuit for such a long time by hitting several key requirements: The most valuable person to her had to die: Joel. He had to die in front of her eyes. He had to die in a very vicious, slow and painful way. That's why Joel died the way he did. Naughty Dog wants us to feel like Ellie: we see our father figure being mercilessly beaten to death with no chance of defense in front of our very eyes, fully knowing that he risked his own life to save Ellie before multiple times, and to give her something that resembles a normal life. Add on top of that, that Ellie's final conversation with Joel left things a bit unresolved and he never got the forgiveness he sought: you can see why Ellie is prepared to murder everything in her path to get to Abby, initially. I think if we were put in that situation, we'd want to hunt down the people responsible to the ends of the earth as well, no matter how long it took. Point #5: They want us to hate Ellie and love Abby/Abby is a piece of shit and we can never empathize with her The point was never to necessarily empathize with Abby. If you did, even better for you, but it was primarily to understand why she went to such lengths. That same blind hatred applies to her, just as much as it does to Ellie. It's never stated explicitly, but the fact Abby looked for Joel for years and worked out so much, must mean she was incredibly devoted to murder him. Someone pointed out how irredeemable she is for accepting Joel's help, luring him to their lodge, cornering them and then still killing him. The nuances are there if you look again at the notorious scene from Abby's perspective: right before she kills him, you can see the pity on her face as she looks to Joel, all bloody and beaten up. And right before delivering the final blow, she shakes her head, indicating: "fuck, let's just get this over with". Which also shows a bit of reluctance on her part. Nonetheless, push through with it she did, because she crossed the point of no return a long time ago. And right after, you can spot the dissatisfaction/emptiness on her face. She did not gain any pleasure or real closure out of this. She did what she thought she had to do, to restore balance to righteousness from her perspective. Again, a testament to the very solid acting work of Laura Bailey and directing work of Neil Druckmann. To address the other matter: Mel does point out that Abby "is a piece of shit". And Abby does not parry. She stands there and accepts it, because she knows it's true. Abby is a person, just like any other in this world, who has done vile things and made mistakes, maybe even more so than others. However, she does also grow and start to realize that her image of the world outside of the WLF and Fireflies is distorted. It's also about how she's trying to redeem whatever is left of her tainted soul. At first, she mocks the Scar prisoners, thinking they're all just fanatics, which is what happens when you're in the same bubble where the same theories and opinions are repeated over and over again: Opinions become fact over time, in that scenario. However, when her life is saved by two Seraphites on the run for not adhering to their ideological restrictions, she starts to reconsider that everything is not so black and white. She also has dreams and nightmares that gradually improve, if you noticed, as she tries to soothe her conscience by helping Lev and Yara more and more. But more than anything, "this story about hate" as Naughty Dog described it years back when they revealed it, is not just about Ellie. It's also about Abby. It's about hate's destructive effects and how all-consuming it is eventually. Abby's hatred against Joel. Ellie's hatred against Abby. The WLF's hatred against the "Scars". The Seraphites' hatred against the "Wolves". It's a two-part story, hence how they almost mirror everything in those three days in Seattle, as you play as Ellie first, and then as Abby. You see how they have the same feelings, they struggle with the same problems and their own existence and identity. As Ellie descends into all-consuming rage, Abby climbs and fights an uphill battle, desperately trying to redeem whatever is left of her, even though it is mostly in vain. And about that ending... The core theme at the end may be about forgiveness, but even more so, the core message/question it asks you, is: Is five minutes of satisfaction worth an entire life of misery? These two women, who we're witnessing as they slide further down a path of self-destruction and ruin, are heading towards a breaking point. As said before, this takes place over the course of more than a year. And at that coastline, both women are exhausted after all this time. Mentally, physically and emotionally. For different reasons, obviously, but nevertheless: they are spent. When that final confrontation occurs, Ellie is in control as opposed to at the theater, because Abby already reached her breaking point long ago, due to the consequences of her revenge on Joel. Ellie hasn't ... Yet. Abby is clear about this in what she tells Ellie: "I'm not going to fight you." She's done with the whole thing. Ellie, however, still has a score to settle and engages in combat against Abby's wishes. It's at this point last week, when I finished the game, that I had a very different reaction as opposed to a lot of streamers and YouTubers who were very disappointed. They were treating this as a traditional boss fight and wanted to see blood flow. Abby's blood. When I played, I was concurrently spectating in shock, lower jaw slightly dropped. I was participating, guiding Ellie. I was prepared to do what Ellie wanted. But I only had one thought the further the battle progressed, which I eventually muttered as I kept playing: "Oh my God. She's (Ellie) actually going to kill her (Abby)." I did not feel the satisfaction that others were seeking. I wasn't witnessing a protagonist stopping an antagonist. What I witnessed, were two women trying to destroy each other to the bone, with their last ounces of strength left. And there was a tangible morbid sadness to witnessing that scene. Ellie starts to realize that too: she has Abby pinned down underneath the water and she's about to get what she wanted, but she is emotionally struggling immensely to do what she has been pursuing for so long. It's when she remembers her final conversation with Joel that she reaches her breaking point. She realizes she has to let go, before it consumes all of her, after having lost so much already in her search for justice and vengeance. She wasn't getting any satisfaction out of it, just as Abby didn't when she killed Joel. She doesn't necessarily forgive Abby, nor does she save her: most of all, Ellie saves herself before it is too late. The epilogue The epilogue shows the result of the entire journey. I find it a bit juvenile to see how some people mocked and said: "it's written so poorly: in the end Ellie loses some fingers and plays the guitar badly, lol". The game is full of symbolism and carries more meaning than meets the eye. Ellie struggling to play "Future Days" (the song Joel plays for her at the beginning in Jackson) like she was able to before several times, shows how literally and figuratively she lost a part of herself along the way definitively. She's incomplete. But, after everything, she is finally able to put Joel to rest in her mind, let go and forgive him, as she leaves the guitar behind and walks away from the now desolated farm. And if you remember the lyrics of the song, I think you'll see how the point of the entire journey hits home at the very end before the credits roll: If I ever were to lose you I'd surely lose myself I'm sorry for all the long analyses, but if you dig deeper past the story beats, you'll find that The Last of Us Part II offers a lot of complex philosophical matter to debate, woven into the game's very fabric. And there's a lot more to appreciate in its nuances, if you're willing to see them. That's why I wanted to talk about the story and its ending. That's why I love the entire experience so much. I really have refrained from talking about my feelings towards the game. I usually struggle to try and piece together my thoughts and you have really spoken a lot of what I feel. I will comment on a few things from my perspective. 1. I wasn't as connected to Joel as most are as I wasn't a big fan of the first game. I'm not saying it is terrible but I didn't connect with it like a lot have. So Joel dying didn't affect me like some. I understood what ND was trying to do with his death. Honestly at first I had to look up who Abby was and why she wanted Joel dead. 2. I really enjoyed playing as both Ellie and Abby. I liked the two perspectives and you explained it very well about both of them. 3. I am probably one in a million when I got to the end and Abby Tells Ellie were the boats are at and I was hoping one of two things were going to happen. Either they all left in the same boat or they each got in separate boats and went their separate ways. That is what Abby wanted but Ellie was so full of revenge that she provoked Abby into fighting. So to me (this may be a unpopular opinion) The Last of Us Part II is a much better game for me. I felt more connected with the characters and world that was created. I like that you never really feel like the hero (like most games do) but you feel like two people who are struggling with their decisions in a very brutal world. I hope I have made sense in what I have posted. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoaLoft Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 On 7-7-2020 at 5:18 AM, snakebit10 said: I really have refrained from talking about my feelings towards the game. I usually struggle to try and piece together my thoughts and you have really spoken a lot of what I feel. I will comment on a few things from my perspective. 1. I wasn't as connected to Joel as most are as I wasn't a big fan of the first game. I'm not saying it is terrible but I didn't connect with it like a lot have. So Joel dying didn't affect me like some. I understood what ND was trying to do with his death. Honestly at first I had to look up who Abby was and why she wanted Joel dead. 2. I really enjoyed playing as both Ellie and Abby. I liked the two perspectives and you explained it very well about both of them. 3. I am probably one in a million when I got to the end and Abby Tells Ellie were the boats are at and I was hoping one of two things were going to happen. Either they all left in the same boat or they each got in separate boats and went their separate ways. That is what Abby wanted but Ellie was so full of revenge that she provoked Abby into fighting. So to me (this may be a unpopular opinion) The Last of Us Part II is a much better game for me. I felt more connected with the characters and world that was created. I like that you never really feel like the hero (like most games do) but you feel like two people who are struggling with their decisions in a very brutal world. I hope I have made sense in what I have posted. You did, and it's great to see how people approached the game differently, with various expectations. I am a huge fan of the first game in general, and I was still able to put events of the second game into context. I did add those new points of mine to my original post. I think I covered everything I wanted to cover that others have been criticizing. But I hope more players will contribute and share their experience with the game from their point of view. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Livingstone7728 Posted July 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) On 04/07/2020 at 8:44 AM, SuperSaiyan3985 said: My mistake, don't know why I thought that. I'm referring to being civil with people on here, not outside parties. I hate the director and will call him what I like. Shouldn't make a difference. It does make a difference it makes you look childish and immature... and takes any credability away from the points you're trying to make Edited July 9, 2020 by Livingstone7728 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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