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[SPOILERS] So, let's talk about that story and ending ...


JoaLoft

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I agree mostly with the OP but here’s a bit of my .02c.
 

I can see what ND tried to do, and there were some good foundations for subverting expectations (ugh) but the way they handled Joel’s death was completely disgraceful for reasons that have already been stated by many (will elaborate if needed). It would’ve been a lot better handled IMO if roles were reversed a little and Abby’s crew was the one who saved Joel & Tommy. That would’ve been at least a somewhat legitimate reason why they let their guard down. This is just one example of overly contrived scenarios in this game that falls flat in its face.

 

In the end they only ended up butchering the original characters and rid of their charm while none of the new characters were really compelling enough to fill The void left by Joel and Ellie. Admittedly it was an ambitious, unconventional way to try to move the story in a different direction, but unfortunately it was a  disappointing experiment and does not live up to their usual quality storytelling that used to define their games. I will just chalk this one off as one Ellie’s bad dreams.

 

There’s a lot more I want to talk about regarding the story but it’s almost bedtime here so I’ll leave it at this for now.

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I think the main problems with the story are first, how bad it is organized, like seriously, it’s terrible, specially from a gameplay perspective.

 

The second one, that is not a problem itself, is how shitty it makes you feel, it’s relentless, hit after hit, I think that is very hard to chew, specially from a casual perspective, not to mention is aggravated for how bonded we are to the game and the previous protagonists from the first game, it’s not like it is a fresh take for all of us. I guess that’s what the bomb ticked for most.

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7 hours ago, TJ_Solo said:

 

 

Maybe I am used to games and stories that are told out of order but then tie everything together later like Westworld, Kingdom Hearts, Yakuza, Memento. 

 

This game has dual protagonists with stories that are joined in the past, present, and presumably future parts of it.  

 

The feelings that stir in stories with a grim, dark setting tend to match the tone. Do you watch TWD or Sons of Anarchy and expect to feel the same emotions as if you just watched Frozen or MLP? 

 

What does it being a fresh take matters?

How many games or stories do you partake in that are fresh takes in their respective medium? Genre is a thing.  It helps people make products without needing to reinvent the wheel everytime. 

Congrats I guess? I have also watched those, you are not the only one “accustomed”, still, none of them cuts you in the climax of one story to try to connect to the opposite side of the story. 
 

Man, what are you talking about? Fresh take means its not the first time you play the story, not the genre. I think I have clearly said “it’s not a problem per se”, I just said is hard to swallow. Can you understand it being hard to chew for some people? I wasn’t even talking about me.
 

And still, I don’t think those shows has the same ratio per hour of violence and deaths than Last of Us 2, not even GoT in it’s best early seasons got that many characters killed in hours, not talking about the violence in between too.

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Quote

Congrats I guess? I have also watched those, you are not the only one “accustomed”, still, none of them cuts you in the climax of one story to try to connect to the opposite side of the story. 

 

they all do, actually.

 

Quote

Man, what are you talking about? Fresh take means its not the first time you play the story, not the genre. I think I have clearly said “it’s not a problem per se”, I just said is hard to swallow. Can you understand it being hard to chew for some people? I wasn’t even talking about me.

 

Sigh. I get it. The point still stands. The viewing of the story from another character's perspective is how the story is told. 

 

Quote

And still, I don’t think those shows has the same ratio per hour of violence and deaths than Last of Us 2, not even GoT in it’s best early seasons got that many characters killed in hours, not talking about the violence in between too.

 

Not arguing about the ratios being the same. Merely the concept. 

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19 hours ago, BlackTorito said:

@SuperSaiyan3985 Where do you see in my post I am referencing the first game? I’m talking about the second part obviously.

My mistake, don't know why I thought that.

18 hours ago, ShadowReplicant said:

 

Says the guy who doesn't even have the decency to call the director by his real name.

I'm referring to being civil with people on here, not outside parties. I hate the director and will call him what I like. Shouldn't make a difference. 

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On 7/3/2020 at 7:08 PM, SuperSaiyan3985 said:

No one's mad at the fact that Joel "died" (I mean, we all saw it coming), it's HOW he died. We were all expecting a somber, heroic death where he dies protecting Ellie or something like that and instead we get Cuckmann's character spitting on his corpse after torturing him. There are ways to write characters off - this is a prime example of how NOT to. 

 

He did die protecting Ellie though, of course it came a few years later but it doesn't change the fact Joel wouldn't have died if he hadn't saved Ellie from that operating table. It strengthens the decision made in the first game over creating a new scenario for Joel to save Ellie from that would have diminished it. We also wouldn't be playing as Ellie had it not been for Joel's decision, so I think it would be rather hypocritical of the lead director if he hated the character which he doesn't like some people think. 

 

Also there's the point of how these games are inspired by No Country for Old Men, you should check out how that treats its protagonist. This isn't anything new. 

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On 7/3/2020 at 2:08 PM, SuperSaiyan3985 said:

That is a very slimy decision on behalf of Naughty Dog and I hope they get sued for it.

 

There's no legal basis to sue them for the trailers. If it happens, it will be thrown out of court right away.

 

I have no problem with that they did plot wise, but they shouldn't have faked the trailers. That was definitely slimy. Fortunately it didn't affect me personally since I avoided everything after the first E3 trailer.

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I enjoyed the story and thought the framework was great.  Love the idea of looking at different perspectives as things are seldom black/white, but instead many shades of grey.


Joel was a hero but a flawed hero and his decisioning at the end of the first game showed that.  He made a selfish decision to humanity and caused a lot of collateral damage in the process.

 

Where it fell apart for me was the whole Lev/Yara plot line that would not go away.  It was inserted to make Abby more likable but I think it backfired.  Abby on a revenge angle for losing her father and then close friends was enough.  We saw the bonding between them through the storylines so we could appreciate her quest for vengeance in the same way we could for Ellie.

 

Ellie not finishing the job on Abby made sense as well.  You just come to the realization of what’s the point.  She understood that Abby lost her father because of her/Joel and understood her motivations.  It would not have made her feel any better Nd possibly worse.

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2 minutes ago, djb5f said:

Where it fell apart for me was the whole Lev/Yara plot line that would not go away.  It was inserted to make Abby more likable but I think it backfired.  Abby on a revenge angle for losing her father and then close friends was enough.  We saw the bonding between them through the storylines so we could appreciate her quest for vengeance in the same way we could for Ellie.

 

I don't think there intend was to make you like her more. The Lev/Yana story for me was the way Abby found closure with her trauma, because killing Joel did not fix this. She just found something new to live for, she was losing everything at that point and was not giving up on her friends and the two kids. After losing all but Lev, that feeling only grew. I don't see this as look at Abby, she is so wonderfull!!! It's just a glimpse of how she deals with all the stuf happining and the nightmares she still has. (Thats how I look at it.)

 

6 minutes ago, djb5f said:

Ellie not finishing the job on Abby made sense as well.  You just come to the realization of what’s the point.  She understood that Abby lost her father because of her/Joel and understood her motivations.  It would not have made her feel any better Nd possibly worse.

 

If I remember correctly, Ellie does not know that... Ellie thinks Abby got revenge for ruining the plans for a cure. She says that to her in the theater. "Its me you want"

While Abby her quest had nothing to do with Ellie, she was just out for Joels Life. I also dont't think Ellie forgave Abby, but she just let go knowing all of this is not fixing anything.

 

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11 minutes ago, Bunkerbudy said:

 

I don't think there intend was to make you like her more. The Lev/Yana story for me was the way Abby found closure with her trauma, because killing Joel did not fix this. She just found something new to live for, she was losing everything at that point and was not giving up on her friends and the two kids. After losing all but Lev, that feeling only grew. I don't see this as look at Abby, she is so wonderfull!!! It's just a glimpse of how she deals with all the stuf happining and the nightmares she still has. (Thats how I look at it.)

 

 

If I remember correctly, Ellie does not know that... Ellie thinks Abby got revenge for ruining the plans for a cure. She says that to her in the theater. "Its me you want"

While Abby her quest had nothing to do with Ellie, she was just out for Joels Life. I also dont't think Ellie forgave Abby, but she just let go knowing all of this is not fixing anything.

 

 

Good points.  No matter the intentions, the Lev/Yara storyline just seemed forced to me. She seemed to give up on her friends in the process, turning against the Wolves.

 

You could be right on the theatre scene where Ellie told Abby that she understood - that it was solely about ruining the chance for a cure and not anything about Abby’s father being killed.

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On 03/07/2020 at 3:12 AM, JoaLoft said:

Point #2: "Joel is bad, and Abby is good" or vice versa

 

The sooner you accept that they're all characters with flaws and strengths, the sooner you can look at the events of the game more objectively. And I think the fact that Joel dying made so many people mourn so passionately and made them so angry, doesn't show that the story is nonsensical. It shows that Joel was a very beloved character and very well written, which is a testament to how well Naughty Dog developed him.


This is my biggest issue with the game. You've correctly and very eloquently pointed out how everyone in the world will have done many morally questionable things to survive and protect the ones they love. However for the game to succeed in it's message it needed to make me emphasise and to some extent like Abby, it does not.

Abby treats the closest person to her awfully, so much so that he's driven into the arms of another woman to find companionship. She then has a pretty dim view of Mel because of this, not realising the reason Owen forms a relationship with her is because of her own behaviour. She seems to get a kick out of torturing others, not only was killing Joel not enough he had to die slowly. Furthermore she was okay with luring someone out from Jackson to torture for information on Joel's whereabouts. When walking through the WLF's FOB she comments on how she'd enjoy torturing some of their prisoners after having a rough morning. When Mel confronts Abby and reinforces my viewpoint, "You're a piece of shit Abby, you always have been", she reacts very angrily and gets upset. This implies to me that she knows there's truth to what Mel says, if there wasn't she would have brushed it off.

The game does an extremely poor job of highlighting any redeemable qualities she has outside of the plot surrounding Lev/Yara which I feel the same as dj about.
 

7 minutes ago, djb5f said:

No matter the intentions, the Lev/Yara storyline just seemed forced to me. She seemed to give up on her friends in the process, turning against the Wolves.


Her actions in helping them escape the forest more than made up for Yara ordering Lev to cut her down, saving her life, as they wouldn't have escaped the forest alive without Abby's help. She didn't even know the pair 24 hours earlier, yet her only motivation for helping them is one bad dream. Now her character does an unbelievable heel turn where she's goes above and beyond not once, but twice for the siblings, as well as turn against her own people. Very odd when the game makes out she's far more loyal to the WLF than a character like Owen. I actually think if Owen was swapped with Abby it would've been easier for me to emphasise, as he's the only one of that group with any redeemable character traits, despite how poorly he treats Mel at the end of the game.

It's not just the matter of Joel being good or bad either to me. To make me feel more remorse the game had to do a lot better job of making me dislike Ellie, a character like Joel who the audience has had 7 years to grow attached to. It also fails in this department for me. If the only reason for Abby's friends dying wasn't because in every scenario they either attack Ellie or the person she loves most (Dina) and force her to act in self defence perhaps I might have been more conflicted. The only tough part for me was her beating Abby's location out Nora. However when you see Abby having no adverse reaction to similar treatment of Joel, as well as wanting to do similar to Scar's in the FOB, in contrast to Ellie's response it further underlies one character being better than the other.

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I've been keeping tabs on the thread, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed with how civil pretty much all responses have been. Kudos to all of you, it shows that people can agree or disagree about certain aspects of the game, and respect the other's opinion as long as it's supported with logical arguments. Would love to dive a bit deeper on what some of you have mentioned, from my perspective, so I'd like to add what else I saw when I was playing, to help put everything into context.

 

 

Point #4: Joel's death was disgraceful and he deserved a more heroic one

 

On 3-7-2020 at 9:04 AM, jaehyun1009 said:

I can see what ND tried to do, and there were some good foundations for subverting expectations (ugh) but the way they handled Joel’s death was completely disgraceful for reasons that have already been stated by many (will elaborate if needed).

 

On 3-7-2020 at 8:08 PM, SuperSaiyan3985 said:

No one's mad at the fact that Joel "died" (I mean, we all saw it coming), it's HOW he died. We were all expecting a somber, heroic death where he dies protecting Ellie or something like that and instead we get Cuckmann's character spitting on his corpse after torturing him. There are ways to write characters off - this is a prime example of how NOT to.

 

I can see that you feel as if Joel's character has been done a disservice by the way he was killed. There's only one problem with that: giving Joel a heroic somber death would be putting Joel into a heroic frame, which is exactly the opposite of what they're trying to achieve. He's not a protagonist or an antagonist. He's a survivor who has been through a lot, and had to resort to terrible deeds to endure. Just another guy. And he could've gone out in any number of brutal ways, despite his good intentions. He's no more important than any of the other characters we've lost along the way. Maybe to us, but not in the bigger scope of things.

 

There's one more reason why Joel was given such a heartbreaking death.

 

You have to remember that although we take about 30-35 hours to beat this whole game which is less than a day and a half (I personally did it in 36, I took my time exploring everywhere), this is the timespan of approx. a year and a half in reality, considering there was no pregnancy yet to speak of on Joel's date of death, baby JJ has already been born for a while at the start of the final act, and it takes Ellie another few months after to travel to Santa Barbara. You'd have to justify Ellie's blind hatred and relentless pursuit for such a long time by hitting several key requirements:

 

  1. The most valuable person to her had to die: Joel.
  2. He had to die in front of her eyes.
  3. He had to die in a very vicious, slow and painful way.

 

That's why Joel died the way he did. Naughty Dog wants us to feel like Ellie: we see our father figure being mercilessly beaten to death with no chance of defense in front of our very eyes, fully knowing that he risked his own life to save Ellie before multiple times, and to give her something that resembles a normal life. Add on top of that, that Ellie's final conversation with Joel left things a bit unresolved and he never got the forgiveness he sought: you can see why Ellie is prepared to murder everything in her path to get to Abby, initially. I think if we were put in that situation, we'd want to hunt down the people responsible to the ends of the earth as well, no matter how long it took.

 

Point #5: They want us to hate Ellie and love Abby/Abby is a piece of shit and we can never empathize with her

 

11 hours ago, djb5f said:

Where it fell apart for me was the whole Lev/Yara plot line that would not go away.  It was inserted to make Abby more likable but I think it backfired.  Abby on a revenge angle for losing her father and then close friends was enough.  We saw the bonding between them through the storylines so we could appreciate her quest for vengeance in the same way we could for Ellie.

 

10 hours ago, EIdain said:

This is my biggest issue with the game. You've correctly and very eloquently pointed out how everyone in the world will have done many morally questionable things to survive and protect the ones they love. However for the game to succeed in it's message it needed to make me emphasise and to some extent like Abby, it does not.

 

Abby treats the closest person to her awfully, so much so that he's driven into the arms of another woman to find companionship. She then has a pretty dim view of Mel because of this, not realising the reason Owen forms a relationship with her is because of her own behaviour. She seems to get a kick out of torturing others, not only was killing Joel not enough he had to die slowly. Furthermore she was okay with luring someone out from Jackson to torture for information on Joel's whereabouts. When walking through the WLF's FOB she comments on how she'd enjoy torturing some of their prisoners after having a rough morning. When Mel confronts Abby and reinforces my viewpoint, "You're a piece of shit Abby, you always have been", she reacts very angrily and gets upset. This implies to me that she knows there's truth to what Mel says, if there wasn't she would have brushed it off.

 

It's not just the matter of Joel being good or bad either to me. To make me feel more remorse the game had to do a lot better job of making me dislike Ellie, a character like Joel who the audience has had 7 years to grow attached to. It also fails in this department for me.

 

The point was never to necessarily empathize with Abby. If you did, even better for you, but it was primarily to understand why she went to such lengths. That same blind hatred applies to her, just as much as it does to Ellie. It's never stated explicitly, but the fact Abby looked for Joel for years and worked out so much, must mean she was incredibly devoted to murder him.

 

Someone pointed out how irredeemable she is for accepting Joel's help, luring him to their lodge, cornering them and then still killing him. The nuances are there if you look again at the notorious scene from Abby's perspective: right before she kills him, you can see the pity on her face as she looks to Joel, all bloody and beaten up. And right before delivering the final blow, she shakes her head, indicating: "fuck, let's just get this over with". Which also shows a bit of reluctance on her part. Nonetheless, push through with it she did, because she crossed the point of no return a long time ago. And right after, you can spot the dissatisfaction/emptiness on her face. She did not gain any pleasure or real closure out of this. She did what she thought she had to do, to restore balance to righteousness from her perspective. Again, a testament to the very solid acting work of Laura Bailey and directing work of Neil Druckmann.

 

To address the other matter: Mel does point out that Abby "is a piece of shit". And Abby does not parry. She stands there and accepts it, because she knows it's true. Abby is a person, just like any other in this world, who has done vile things and made mistakes, maybe even more so than others. However, she does also grow and start to realize that her image of the world outside of the WLF and Fireflies is distorted. It's also about how she's trying to redeem whatever is left of her tainted soul. At first, she mocks the Scar prisoners, thinking they're all just fanatics, which is what happens when you're in the same bubble where the same theories and opinions are repeated over and over again: Opinions become fact over time, in that scenario. However, when her life is saved by two Seraphites on the run for not adhering to their ideological restrictions, she starts to reconsider that everything is not so black and white. She also has dreams and nightmares that gradually improve, if you noticed, as she tries to soothe her conscience by helping Lev and Yara more and more.

 

But more than anything, "this story about hate" as Naughty Dog described it years back when they revealed it, is not just about Ellie. It's also about Abby. It's about hate's destructive effects and how all-consuming it is eventually. Abby's hatred against Joel. Ellie's hatred against Abby. The WLF's hatred against the "Scars". The Seraphites' hatred against the "Wolves". It's a two-part story, hence how they almost mirror everything in those three days in Seattle, as you play as Ellie first, and then as Abby. You see how they have the same feelings, they struggle with the same problems and their own existence and identity. As Ellie descends into all-consuming rage, Abby climbs and fights an uphill battle, desperately trying to redeem whatever is left of her, even though it is mostly in vain.

 

 

 

And about that ending...

 

The core theme at the end may be about forgiveness, but even more so, the core message/question it asks you, is:

 

Is five minutes of satisfaction worth an entire life of misery?

 

These two women, who we're witnessing as they slide further down a path of self-destruction and ruin, are heading towards a breaking point.

 

As said before, this takes place over the course of more than a year. And at that coastline, both women are exhausted after all this time. Mentally, physically and emotionally. For different reasons, obviously, but nevertheless: they are spent. When that final confrontation occurs, Ellie is in control as opposed to at the theater, because Abby already reached her breaking point long ago, due to the consequences of her revenge on Joel. Ellie hasn't ... Yet. Abby is clear about this in what she tells Ellie: "I'm not going to fight you." She's done with the whole thing. Ellie, however, still has a score to settle and engages in combat against Abby's wishes.

 

It's at this point last week, when I finished the game, that I had a very different reaction as opposed to a lot of streamers and YouTubers who were very disappointed. They were treating this as a traditional boss fight and wanted to see blood flow. Abby's blood.

 

When I played, I was concurrently spectating in shock, lower jaw slightly dropped. I was participating, guiding Ellie. I was prepared to do what Ellie wanted. But I only had one thought the further the battle progressed, which I eventually muttered as I kept playing:

 

"Oh my God. She's (Ellie) actually going to kill her (Abby)."

 

I did not feel the satisfaction that others were seeking. I wasn't witnessing a protagonist stopping an antagonist.

 

What I witnessed, were two women trying to destroy each other to the bone, with their last ounces of strength left.

 

And there was a tangible morbid sadness to witnessing that scene. Ellie starts to realize that too: she has Abby pinned down underneath the water and she's about to get what she wanted, but she is emotionally struggling immensely to do what she has been pursuing for so long. It's when she remembers her final conversation with Joel that she reaches her breaking point. She realizes she has to let go, before it consumes all of her, after having lost so much already in her search for justice and vengeance. She wasn't getting any satisfaction out of it, just as Abby didn't when she killed Joel. She doesn't necessarily forgive Abby, nor does she save her: most of all, Ellie saves herself before it is too late.

 

The epilogue

 

The epilogue shows the result of the entire journey. I find it a bit juvenile to see how some people mocked and said: "it's written so poorly: in the end Ellie loses some fingers and plays the guitar badly, lol". The game is full of symbolism and carries more meaning than meets the eye.

 

Ellie struggling to play "Future Days" (the song Joel plays for her at the beginning in Jackson) like she was able to before several times, shows how literally and figuratively she lost a part of herself along the way definitively. She's incomplete. But, after everything, she is finally able to put Joel to rest in her mind, let go and forgive him, as she leaves the guitar behind and walks away from the now desolated farm. And if you remember the lyrics of the song, I think you'll see how the point of the entire journey hits home at the very end before the credits roll:

 

If I ever were to lose you

I'd surely lose myself

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry for all the long analyses, but if you dig deeper past the story beats, you'll find that The Last of Us Part II offers a lot of complex philosophical matter to debate, woven into the game's very fabric. And there's a lot more to appreciate in its nuances, if you're willing to see them.

 

That's why I wanted to talk about the story and its ending. That's why I love the entire experience so much.

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27 minutes ago, JoaLoft said:

I've been keeping tabs on the thread, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed with how civil pretty much all responses have been. Kudos to all of you, it shows that people can agree or disagree about certain aspects of the game, and respect the other's opinion as long as it's supported with logical arguments. Would love to dive a bit deeper on what some of you have mentioned, from my perspective, so I'd like to add what else I saw when I was playing, to help put everything into context.

 

 

Point #4: Joel's death was disgraceful and he deserved a more heroic one

 

 

 

I can see that you feel as if Joel's character has been done a disservice by the way he was killed. There's only one problem with that: giving Joel a heroic somber death would be putting Joel into a heroic frame, which is exactly the opposite of what they're trying to achieve. He's not a protagonist or an antagonist. He's a survivor who has been through a lot, and had to resort to terrible deeds to endure. Just another guy. And he could've gone out in any number of brutal ways, despite his good intentions. He's no more important than any of the other characters we've lost along the way. Maybe to us, but not in the bigger scope of things.

 

There's one more reason why Joel was given such a heartbreaking death.

 

You have to remember that although we take about 30-35 hours to beat this whole game which is less than a day and a half (I personally did it in 36, I took my time exploring everywhere), this is the timespan of approx. a year and a half in reality, considering there was no pregnancy yet to speak of on Joel's date of death, baby JJ has already been born for a while at the start of the final act, and it takes Ellie another few months after to travel to Santa Barbara. You'd have to justify Ellie's blind hatred and relentless pursuit for such a long time by hitting several key requirements:

 

  1. The most valuable person to her had to die: Joel.
  2. He had to die in front of her eyes.
  3. He had to die in a very vicious, slow and painful way.

 

That's why Joel died the way he did. Naughty Dog wants us to feel like Ellie: we see our father figure being mercilessly beaten to death with no chance of defense in front of our very eyes, fully knowing that he risked his own life to save Ellie before multiple times, and to give her something that resembles a normal life. Add on top of that, that Ellie's final conversation with Joel left things a bit unresolved and he never got the forgiveness he sought: you can see why Ellie is prepared to murder everything in her path to get to Abby, initially. I think if we were put in that situation, we'd want to hunt down the people responsible to the ends of the earth as well, no matter how long it took.

 

Point #5: They want us to hate Ellie and love Abby/Abby is a piece of shit and we can never empathize with her

 

 

 

The point was never to necessarily empathize with Abby. If you did, even better for you, but it was primarily to understand why she went to such lengths. That same blind hatred applies to her, just as much as it does to Ellie. It's never stated explicitly, but the fact Abby looked for Joel for years and worked out so much, must mean she was incredibly devoted to murder him.

 

Someone pointed out how irredeemable she is for accepting Joel's help, luring him to their lodge, cornering them and then still killing him. The nuances are there if you look again at the notorious scene from Abby's perspective: right before she kills him, you can see the pity on her face as she looks to Joel, all bloody and beaten up. And right before delivering the final blow, she shakes her head, indicating: "fuck, let's just get this over with". Which also shows a bit of reluctance on her part. Nonetheless, push through with it she did, because she crossed the point of no return a long time ago. And right after, you can spot the dissatisfaction/emptiness on her face. She did not gain any pleasure or real closure out of this. She did what she thought she had to do, to restore balance to righteousness from her perspective. Again, a testament to the very solid acting work of Laura Bailey and directing work of Neil Druckmann.

 

To address the other matter: Mel does point out that Abby "is a piece of shit". And Abby does not parry. She stands there and accepts it, because she knows it's true. Abby is a person, just like any other in this world, who has done vile things and made mistakes, maybe even more so than others. However, she does also grow and start to realize that her image of the world outside of the WLF and Fireflies is distorted. It's also about how she's trying to redeem whatever is left of her tainted soul. At first, she mocks the Scar prisoners, thinking they're all just fanatics, which is what happens when you're in the same bubble where the same theories and opinions are repeated over and over again: Opinions become fact over time, in that scenario. However, when her life is saved by two Seraphites on the run for not adhering to their ideological restrictions, she starts to reconsider that everything is not so black and white. She also has dreams and nightmares that gradually improve, if you noticed, as she tries to soothe her conscience by helping Lev and Yara more and more.

 

But more than anything, "this story about hate" as Naughty Dog described it years back when they revealed it, is not just about Ellie. It's also about Abby. It's about hate's destructive effects and how all-consuming it is eventually. Abby's hatred against Joel. Ellie's hatred against Abby. The WLF's hatred against the "Scars". The Seraphites' hatred against the "Wolves". It's a two-part story, hence how they almost mirror everything in those three days in Seattle, as you play as Ellie first, and then as Abby. You see how they have the same feelings, they struggle with the same problems and their own existence and identity. As Ellie descends into all-consuming rage, Abby climbs and fights an uphill battle, desperately trying to redeem whatever is left of her, even though it is mostly in vain.

 

 

 

And about that ending...

 

The core theme at the end may be about forgiveness, but even more so, the core message/question it asks you, is:

 

Is five minutes of satisfaction worth an entire life of misery?

 

These two women, who we're witnessing as they slide further down a path of self-destruction and ruin, are heading towards a breaking point.

 

As said before, this takes place over the course of more than a year. And at that coastline, both women are exhausted after all this time. Mentally, physically and emotionally. For different reasons, obviously, but nevertheless: they are spent. When that final confrontation occurs, Ellie is in control as opposed to at the theater, because Abby already reached her breaking point long ago, due to the consequences of her revenge on Joel. Ellie hasn't ... Yet. Abby is clear about this in what she tells Ellie: "I'm not going to fight you." She's done with the whole thing. Ellie, however, still has a score to settle and engages in combat against Abby's wishes.

 

It's at this point last week, when I finished the game, that I had a very different reaction as opposed to a lot of streamers and YouTubers who were very disappointed. They were treating this as a traditional boss fight and wanted to see blood flow. Abby's blood.

 

When I played, I was concurrently spectating in shock, lower jaw slightly dropped. I was participating, guiding Ellie. I was prepared to do what Ellie wanted. But I only had one thought the further the battle progressed, which I eventually muttered as I kept playing:

 

"Oh my God. She's (Ellie) actually going to kill her (Abby)."

 

I did not feel the satisfaction that others were seeking. I wasn't witnessing a protagonist stopping an antagonist.

 

What I witnessed, were two women trying to destroy each other to the bone, with their last ounces of strength left.

 

And there was a tangible morbid sadness to witnessing that scene. Ellie starts to realize that too: she has Abby pinned down underneath the water and she's about to get what she wanted, but she is emotionally struggling immensely to do what she has been pursuing for so long. It's when she remembers her final conversation with Joel that she reaches her breaking point. She realizes she has to let go, before it consumes all of her, after having lost so much already in her search for justice and vengeance. She wasn't getting any satisfaction out of it, just as Abby didn't when she killed Joel. She doesn't necessarily forgive Abby, nor does she save her: most of all, Ellie saves herself before it is too late.

 

The epilogue

 

The epilogue shows the result of the entire journey. I find it a bit juvenile to see how some people mocked and said: "it's written so poorly: in the end Ellie loses some fingers and plays the guitar badly, lol". The game is full of symbolism and carries more meaning than meets the eye.

 

Ellie struggling to play "Future Days" (the song Joel plays for her at the beginning in Jackson) like she was able to before several times, shows how literally and figuratively she lost a part of herself along the way definitively. She's incomplete. But, after everything, she is finally able to put Joel to rest in her mind, let go and forgive him, as she leaves the guitar behind and walks away from the now desolated farm. And if you remember the lyrics of the song, I think you'll see how the point of the entire journey hits home at the very end before the credits roll:

 

If I ever were to lose you

I'd surely lose myself

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry for all the long analyses, but if you dig deeper past the story beats, you'll find that The Last of Us Part II offers a lot of complex philosophical matter to debate, woven into the game's very fabric. And there's a lot more to appreciate in its nuances, if you're willing to see them.

 

That's why I wanted to talk about the story and its ending. That's why I love the entire experience so much.

 

I really have refrained from talking about my feelings towards the game. I usually struggle to try and piece together my thoughts and you have really spoken a lot of what I feel.

 

I will comment on a few things from my perspective.

 

1. I wasn't as connected to Joel as most are as I wasn't a big fan of the first game. I'm not saying it is terrible but I didn't connect with it like a lot have. So Joel dying didn't affect me like some. I understood what ND was trying to do with his death. Honestly at first I had to look up who Abby was and why she wanted Joel dead. 

 

2. I really enjoyed playing as both Ellie and Abby. I liked the two perspectives and you explained it very well about both of them.

 

3. I am probably one in a million when I got to the end and Abby Tells Ellie were the boats are at and I was hoping one of two things were going to happen. Either they all left in the same boat or they each got in separate boats and went their separate ways. That is what Abby wanted but Ellie was so full of revenge that she provoked Abby into fighting.

 

So to me (this may be a unpopular opinion) The Last of Us Part II is a much better game for me. I felt more connected with the characters and world that was created. I like that you never really feel like the hero (like most games do) but you feel like two people who are struggling with their decisions in a very brutal world.

 

I hope I have made sense in what I have posted. 

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On 7-7-2020 at 5:18 AM, snakebit10 said:

 

I really have refrained from talking about my feelings towards the game. I usually struggle to try and piece together my thoughts and you have really spoken a lot of what I feel.

 

I will comment on a few things from my perspective.

 

1. I wasn't as connected to Joel as most are as I wasn't a big fan of the first game. I'm not saying it is terrible but I didn't connect with it like a lot have. So Joel dying didn't affect me like some. I understood what ND was trying to do with his death. Honestly at first I had to look up who Abby was and why she wanted Joel dead. 

 

2. I really enjoyed playing as both Ellie and Abby. I liked the two perspectives and you explained it very well about both of them.

 

3. I am probably one in a million when I got to the end and Abby Tells Ellie were the boats are at and I was hoping one of two things were going to happen. Either they all left in the same boat or they each got in separate boats and went their separate ways. That is what Abby wanted but Ellie was so full of revenge that she provoked Abby into fighting.

 

So to me (this may be a unpopular opinion) The Last of Us Part II is a much better game for me. I felt more connected with the characters and world that was created. I like that you never really feel like the hero (like most games do) but you feel like two people who are struggling with their decisions in a very brutal world.

 

I hope I have made sense in what I have posted. 

 

You did, and it's great to see how people approached the game differently, with various expectations. I am a huge fan of the first game in general, and I was still able to put events of the second game into context.

 

I did add those new points of mine to my original post. I think I covered everything I wanted to cover that others have been criticizing. But I hope more players will contribute and share their experience with the game from their point of view.

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