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Did Joel Really...? (Spoilers)


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She was the first test subject though. I don't know why this keeps coming up. They did experiments with others but she's the first immune person they had found. Also, Joel didn't know they debated killing him. All he knew is that Marlene ordered he be killed if he didn't comply.

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1 hour ago, Mori said:

I watched a decent video about the actions of Joel, described by a lawyer.

 

 

 

Well, I'm a lawyer too, just not an US/UK lawyer. I just skimmed through the video quickly for 30 seconds. First thing you have to bear in mind that the US criminal law is the most extreme outlier in respect of self-defense. Of course I'm not an expert of every criminal laws in every countries, and not even an expert of the US criminal laws, but I would say almost every lawyers around the world know this. In almost all other countries, the defendant must meet much higher burden of proof, as well as much stricter standards for many aspects of self-defense (necessity, immediacy, etc), to be considered as self-defense.

 

For example, the defending force must be the mildest possible option at all times in most countries. In other words, according to more typical self-defense laws, Joel could beat the doctor to take out the scalpel in defense of Ellie, but once he disarmed the doctor, he cannot even go further beating him (as long as the doctor stopped fighting back), let alone killing him. If the doctor tried to fight back again with his fists, then he could beat the doctor more and even knock him down, but he cannot beat the shit out of doctor until he's dead, let alone using the knife.

 

In TLOU, Joel took the scalpel and went straight away stabbing the doctor's neck without any hesitation. This does not constitute self defense in most countries. That's an excessive self-defense at best, which is a special variants of self-defense. This won't void the wrongfulness completely (unlike the self-defense), so the defendant cannot be an innocent man. You only got reduced sentences by law. Countries at opposite ends of the spectrum won't even see the Joel's action as excessive self-defense. In that case, it's a fair and square murder, and the circumstances becomes one of many considering factors on the sentencing guidelines, and the judges don't have to reduce the sentence at all (no forced reduction by law).

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6 hours ago, emailking said:

One thing I never see mentioned about Joel's decision is how stupid it was. How often do you think one person can take out dozens of soldiers with assault rifles without dying in the attempt? You'd have to be suicidal to try what he did.

I agree. You have to remember two things though. Joel killed big groups of hunters several times so he has experience going against bigger groups of enemies, and they were going to kill him anyway so he did not have much of a choice. They were leading him outside, past his equipment without giving it to him, either they were about to shoot him like a dog or force him to leave unarmed, both would have killed him. He probably did not mind dying in an attempt to save Ellie either.

6 hours ago, PFinchen said:

I’ve been watching women’s boxing and MMA for 10+ years and I can assure you that there are women out there who not only match but exceed Abbys physique. Gamers need to drop this shit for real. It’s getting weird if not outright embarrassing. 

Can you give some examples of women in mma having that physique and especially exceeding it? Honest question, because I assume you are aware that Abbys body was modeled after a woman very high on roids who basically trains for maximum looks only, while MMA fighters and boxers usually are much more lean for stamina and speed reasons. I am admittedly not an expert on everyone in womens mma, knowing only a few of them, like Cyborg who is fit but nowhere near Abbys level, but a quick google search only resulted in 2 women that I would remotely compare to Abby.

I found more women like Abby in womens bodybuilding, so not saying her physique is completely impossible to get with a hell of a lot of roids, a lot of high quality protein and regular several hour training, though your comment sounds like its not an unusual sight in boxing and mma, and of course the discussion about it being realistic is a completely different topic alltogether.

 

40 minutes ago, Wendenhorn said:

In TLOU, Joel took the scalpel and went straight away stabbing the doctor's neck without any hesitation. This does not constitute self defense in most countries. That's an excessive self-defense at best, which is a special variants of self-defense. This won't void the wrongfulness completely (unlike the self-defense), so the defendant cannot be an innocent man. You only got reduced sentences by law. Countries at opposite ends of the spectrum won't even see the Joel's action as excessive self-defense. In that case, it's a fair and square murder, and the circumstances becomes one of many considering factors on the sentencing guidelines, and the judges don't have to reduce the sentence at all (no forced reduction by law).

I am by no means an expert on law, especially not american law, and I fully agree that no one would buy the self defense argument due to Joel being to one attacking, not defending himself. The thing is though, while Joel did not defend himself, he defended Ellie, a girl who was about to get dissected by that same scalpel the Doc was using to try and keep Joel away. Isn't there a law protecting you if you apply deadly force to save someone else from lethal physical harm? Especially if it wasn't an execution but he killed him instantly by turning his own weapon against him?

Edited by Nighcisama
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I am not here to give feedback on your post, but this:

"5) Even if they defied all odds and could make a vaccine and mass produce it, how would the logistics really play out? Are they going to send a truckload to the hunter camp and say free cure to a bunch of hardened survivors? No, they would be shot on sight and most would not trust the vaccine. I will not go further with this one because I think most of us realize handing out the vaccine is just not going to happen."

 

Made me think of Death Stranding. Crossover episode

 

 

bmg_ps.png

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21 hours ago, sepheroithisgod said:

One of the things that seem to get tossed out a lot is that Joel screwed over humanity, but is it really that simple?

I want to list a few counter-arguments to this idea.

 

1) First and foremost, one of the things that makes TLoU so cool is that it's actually based on a real disease, Cordyceps. This is a fungal disease that was mutated by a virus according to the game. In reality, there is no way to make a vaccine for such a thing. It simply is not possible with modern-day medicine, versus what would be available in TLoU. I do understand that maybe since this doesn't work the way it does IRL, that you could argue it is possible to make a vaccine, but I just wanted to share this with people.

 

2) Abby's father is not qualified for this procedure or have the medical knowledge necessary to make a vaccine. The man is in his early thirties or mid 40's at most. TLoU takes place 20 years post the outbreak, where society ended. If we give him the benefit of the doubt and say he is 40, that means he was only 20 when the outbreak began. He would not have taken many medical classes at this point even if he was pursuing a medical degree. He would not have any medical experience, and he would certainly not be qualified to conduct an operation on Ellie.

 

3) Even if it was possible to make a cure and Abby's Father did have the proper knowledge to operate and create a vaccine, he does not have the equipment. These are not created in hospitals. They are created in laboratories with tons of equipment, staff, and specimen (ie Ellie) on hand. Now maybe this was just not shown, but they simply do not have the equipment necessary to produce vaccines.

 

4) Even if they did have the equipment, they definitely do not have the supplies to mass-produce the vaccine. There are no factories out there that are sterile and equipped to do the job in this world.

 

5) Even if they defied all odds and could make a vaccine and mass produce it, how would the logistics really play out? Are they going to send a truckload to the hunter camp and say free cure to a bunch of hardened survivors? No, they would be shot on sight and most would not trust the vaccine. I will not go further with this one because I think most of us realize handing out the vaccine is just not going to happen.

 

While I am positive Joel did not care about any of the above information and did it for a selfish reason, I can't see how he doomed humanity. He simply saved a gung-ho 14-year old from making a pointless choice the fireflies never gave her.

 

Please keep it civil.

Not only do I 100% agree with you, but I would add that the fireflies would 100% weaponize the cure to lord over the rest. There is no effing way they would just give it for free, not to mention that all good things that happened to humanity were weaponized at some point, and so would this. And that is what I LOVED about the first game, that it was as grey as it was, you could really get into conversations with others about it. But now it's just like "nah Joel fucked everyone over." 

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1 hour ago, Wendenhorn said:

 

Well, I'm a lawyer too, just not an US/UK lawyer. I just skimmed through the video quickly for 30 seconds. First thing you have to bear in mind that the US criminal law is the most extreme outlier in respect of self-defense. Of course I'm not an expert of every criminal laws in every countries, and not even an expert of the US criminal laws, but I would say almost every lawyers around the world know this. In almost all other countries, the defendant must meet much higher burden of proof, as well as much stricter standards for many aspects of self-defense (necessity, immediacy, etc), to be considered as self-defense.

 

For example, the defending force must be the mildest possible option at all times in most countries. In other words, according to more typical self-defense laws, Joel could beat the doctor to take out the scalpel in defense of Ellie, but once he disarmed the doctor, he cannot even go further beating him (as long as the doctor stopped fighting back), let alone killing him. If the doctor tried to fight back again with his fists, then he could beat the doctor more and even knock him down, but he cannot beat the shit out of doctor until he's dead, let alone using the knife.

 

In TLOU, Joel took the scalpel and went straight away stabbing the doctor's neck without any hesitation. This does not constitute self defense in most countries. That's an excessive self-defense at best, which is a special variants of self-defense. This won't void the wrongfulness completely (unlike the self-defense), so the defendant cannot be an innocent man. You only got reduced sentences by law. Countries at opposite ends of the spectrum won't even see the Joel's action as excessive self-defense. In that case, it's a fair and square murder, and the circumstances becomes one of many considering factors on the sentencing guidelines, and the judges don't have to reduce the sentence at all (no forced reduction by law).

 

Thanks for your Input.

 

I am no expert at all, so its nice to get a different view on the subject. 

 

I understand your point on killing the doctor in comparising to just disarming him.

 

She (the creator of the video) also mentions that Joel finds himself in a hostage situation, so excessive force might be justified in some (or even most) cases, since many people carry weapons and dont hold back shooting Joel. However I doubt that would have been the case of the doctor killing or disarming situation. 

 

It's definitely a complex and complicated case.

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53 minutes ago, Nighcisama said:

I am by no means an expert on law, especially not american law, and I fully agree that no one would buy the self defense argument due to Joel being to one attacking, not defending himself. The thing is though, while Joel did not defend himself, he defended Ellie, a girl who was about to get dissected by that same scalpel the Doc was using to try and keep Joel away. Isn't there a law protecting you if you apply deadly force to save someone else from lethal physical harm? Especially if it wasn't an execution but he killed him instantly by turning his own weapon against him?

Although I haven't specifically clarified the type of self defense in the sentence, but that's what I'm talking about.

 

1 hour ago, Wendenhorn said:

Joel could beat the doctor to take out the scalpel in defense of Ellie

Most self defense clauses cover both the defender themselves and other people.

 

The problem is, that justification (i.e. in defense of Ellie) won't work in most countries, due to the higher requirements. Like I said, the countermeasure has to be the least severe/offensive action to stop the imminent threat. Joel obviously could just beat the shit out of doctor to stop the threat, which is close to the most mild countermeasure he could take at the moment in defense of Ellie. But he immediately stabbed the doc as soon as he took out the scalpel, which is almost the most offensive/severe action he could take to stop the threat. This is the reason why it won't constitute the self defense for Ellie.

Edited by Wendenhorn
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8 hours ago, PFinchen said:

I’ve been watching women’s boxing and MMA for 10+ years and I can assure you that there are women out there who not only match but exceed Abbys physique.

 
Fair enough but I don’t think Cyborg is the best example here given the questions of what she puts into her body!  These fighters train non-stop at their craft, not sure how Abby can do that in the world she lives in.  Point taken though.

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2 hours ago, djb5f said:

 
Fair enough but I don’t think Cyborg is the best example here given the questions of what she puts into her body!  These fighters train non-stop at their craft, not sure how Abby can do that in the world she lives in.  Point taken though.

I also think there’s something to be said about a world where, for lack of a less cliche phrase, “only the strong survive”. I don’t find it particularly odd that an exceedingly strong woman would be one of the survivors in this universe. I was asked to name names though, so here goes, and I will call out instances where there are questions as to what is put in their body:


Ann Wolfe

Geovana Peres

Gabi Garcia (roids questions for sure) 

Cyborg (roids questions as well)

 

Some incredibly ripped tennis players:

Serena Williams 

Vitalia Diatchenko

Samantha Stosur

 

I’ll post more later when I’m off work. 

Edited by PFinchen
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1 hour ago, PFinchen said:

I also think there’s something to be said about a world where, for lack of a less cliche phrase, “only the strong survive”. I don’t find it particularly odd that an exceedingly strong woman would be one of the survivors in this universe. I was asked to name names though, so here goes, and I will call out instances where there are questions as to what is put in their body:


Ann Wolfe

Geovana Peres

Gabi Garcia (roids questions for sure) 

Cyborg (roids questions as well)

 

Some incredibly ripped tennis players:

Serena Williams 

Vitalia Diatchenko

Samantha Stosur

 

I’ll post more later when I’m off work. 

 

Why not just post Abby's body model Colleen Fotsch?  As far as the other person's concern over training regimen goes. The WLF stay in CenturyLink Field and use the weight room there. They are pretty competitive in that they post the top reps on the whiteboard there. Abby is pushing 205 lbs. In the story during a flashback Abby talked about being able to bench 185lbs but Owen didn't believe her or was jokingly dismissive. It is amazing how people want to cut into the game using the smallest details but ignore the details the game has laid out to explain how committed Abby is to weightlifting. 

 

The guy posting about the models is doing it with misinformation. 
Alejandro Edda is the mocap actor and model for Manny,

Cascina Caradonna was only the face-scan model for Dina. Shannon Woodward did the mocap/VA for Dina.

Edited by TJ_Solo
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21 minutes ago, SaltyCat said:

 

I'm sorry but I read your two things and clearly you are biased as hell, Joel acted on emotion when saving Ellie, how exactly is he a machine?

 

He wasn't, and he didn't act like one.

 

That was my point.

 

At the end of TLOU, Joel acted on pure emotion. It was irrelevant whether a working cure would have been found.

 

That block of text that originated from the TLOU2 subreddit makes him out to be a cold calculating machine, instead of a person. 

Edited by Abby_TheLastofUs
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50 minutes ago, TJ_Solo said:

 

Why not just post Abby's body model Colleen Fotsch?  As far as the other person's concern over training regimen goes. The WLF stay in CenturyLink Field and use the weight room there. They are pretty competitive in that they post the top reps on the whiteboard there. Abby is pushing 205 lbs. In the story during a flashback Abby talked about being able to bench 185lbs but Owen didn't believe her or was jokingly dismissive. It is amazing how people want to cut into the game using the smallest details but ignore the details the game has laid out to explain how committed Abby is to weightlifting. 

 

The guy posting about the models is doing it with misinformation. 
Alejandro Edda is the mocap actor and model for Manny,

Cascina Caradonna was only the face-scan model for Dina. Shannon Woodward did the mocap/VA for Dina.

That’s a fair point, I didn’t actually know who her body double was. Regardless, I agree with you on people needlessly scrutinizing every single detail. What about those giant dudes with war hammers that always survive the first headshot (aside from shotguns). Is that realistic? No, so let’s calm down a bit. It’s a game with the undead. 

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3 minutes ago, emailking said:

Why is Abby's physique so hard to believe? Yeah most women don't look like that and don't want to, but if you lift heavy weights all the time that's what you'll look like. And plenty do.

Lack of steroids and protein in a zombie apocalypse

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So, just been through the game.

Loved TLOU1.. (replayed the remake before release to be in "the mood").

 

I must say... TLOU2 was quite harsh to my feelings, I DID NOT read spoilers till after the release and then only by accident (freaking 9gag), because my copy got delayed at the postal office.

So, good job naughty dog on hiding 50% of the game beforehand for me.

 

Did the characters "act" in a reasonable way? Yes, most of the time (Abby going rouge and saving that boy is something I can't get my head around, but nvmd, Ellie was acting according to revenge, bitterness and the lost chance to settle things with joel.

 

I was not ready for the last flashback with the lost fingers + guitar.

Shed some tears, and damn, I am a hold freaking guy that played alot games.

 

So, I don't know where all that hate comes from for that game - it "could've been better"... somehow that unicorny game we all craved for... but it was alright.

 

All that gender hatred is something I do not care much about, I really did enjoy playing Lara Croft when it was around 120 Triagons (namely 20 for her edgy boobs) to display her... and I did not dis-enjoy TLOU because of a female character.

 

Regarding Joel, I really enjoyed playing as him, as he is very close to my raging temper... and I think they did a great job honoring him in part two (well, besides.. playing Golf of course...).

Part 1 hat more harsh notes towards Joel (his brother portraying him as a monster).

 

So this is that, and now lets wait for cyberpunk... AND DAMN, dont get this angry about a game... please.

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Najzer0 said:

 

 

Plus in part 1, Joel and Tess murder a dozen guys because they wouldn't let them see Robert. You don't really think about that because it's the first combat section and you're still being given tutorials and all, but man that's pretty evil.

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16 minutes ago, emailking said:

 

Plus in part 1, Joel and Tess murder a dozen guys because they wouldn't let them see Robert. You don't really think about that because it's the first combat section and you're still being given tutorials and all, but man that's pretty evil.


It is a video game but right.  Nathan Drake is adored and done far worse!

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