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[SPOILER] Alternative opinion on the story. Love it.


vanslayder

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Ok guys, I have read a lot of angry comments about this game and a lot of people want the story to be changed.
Let me tell you my alternate view on the events. Another perspective as it came to my mind :)
English is not my main language so I am sorry for mistakes.
First of all, Joel was never my beloved character. I hated Joel so much after the events at the end of the first game.
He is stupid, uneducated and very very selfish person (in my opinion). I can't imagine someone being so selfish to sacrifice vaccine for millions of people in favour of just one life.
I hated him so much and I didn't want to play second game at all because I didn't want to participate in this madness - when people praise the deeds of Joel. I didn't want to play as him again.
I got the Part II by accident - good price in the local store and everyone are talking about it. No expectations at all - I didn't read any leaks because I just didn't bother with the game at all.
Ok, so it started with all this sugar story about Tommy supporting Joel decision to save Elly. Dina and Elly love story, etc.
And then THIS happened in the first hour - Joel is brutally killed by some people who chased him to get revenge.
Oh boy, that was so cool. I was so excited about justice served and this piece of **** is dead now. 
I am completely agree with later in game Nora words - "This little shit deserved every last piece of it". Love it, including the way they did it.
Elly and Tommy are left alive and at this point I started to slowly hate Elly the same way I hated Joel.
Let me explain - Elly knows exactly why they killed Joel. She doesn't know that Abby is the daughter of that doctor, but she definitely knows who they are and why they killed Joel.
Still, she wants revenge for justice - at this point my only hope was that Elly would get killed eventually. 
When we start playing as Abby and game tells us who the Wolfs really are, I start feeling full support for Abby.
At the point when Elly kills Mel and Owen with later Abby vs Elly fight I was almost sure that Elly would die and game ends. This would be the perfect ending for me.
But Abby does the second mistake to let her live again. And Elly again wants to get revenge. I didn't want to play Elly any more, I didn't want to go for Abby but the game forced me to do it.
The plot turned great with slavers and Abby got into trap (when she thinks that she is talking to fireflies but they are slavers).
At the end it was so hard to see exhausted Abby who lost all her muscles. Elly decides to fight her again and she does it in the most disgusting way. Threatening to kill unconscious child whom she doesn't know. She is the same piece of shit as Joel was.
Abby is dehydrated, starving and Elly is using knife (yes, Elly is wounded as well, but still).
I tried to fail a fight hoping that if Abby wins then I will see some kind of better ending but no. Just Game Over if you let Abby kill yourself.
Anyway, they both alive at the end, so not so bad for Abby :)
That is it  - the best story so far for me. I can't say I have ever played anything when I was so involved in the story. Beat the game 2 times now and finishing my platinum.
I know this is not popular opinion but ND achieved everything I could hope in the Part II. Awesome plot and Abby got her justice over Joel.

Edited by vanslayder
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I respect your opinion but at the first paragraph when you say "I hate Joel" and then when you say (SPOILER) that Joel death was cool for you I stop reading be cause we have totally diferent vision and opinions about the character.

 

Yes he is not a good guy but in my opinion in that game universe there are not good guys anymore just surviving and maybe it was selfish what he did on the end of 1 but "would you risk the only person you care in the world after all you lost for something you don't know if it going to work?" Be honest....

 

Gameplay is awesome beatiful! But story on the other hand just sucks imo

Edited by NordicSaiyan
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1 minute ago, NordicSaiyan said:

Yes he is not a good guy but in my opinion in that game universe there are not good guys anymore just surviving and maybe it was selfish what he did on the end of 1 but "would you risk the only person you care in the world after all you lost for something you don't know if it going to work?" Be honest....

Interesting how people views on the same events can be completely different. Because for me - totally yes. I would risk. The many are always better then one. But I am not here to argue about anything. I do understand that many people have totally different point of view and I think this is so great that ND achieved such results. Basically people either love or hate it from what I can see on Metacritic reviews - not many are in the middle. :)

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16 minutes ago, vanslayder said:

Interesting how people views on the same events can be completely different. Because for me - totally yes. I would risk. The many are always better then one. But I am not here to argue about anything. I do understand that many people have totally different point of view and I think this is so great that ND achieved such results. Basically people either love or hate it from what I can see on Metacritic reviews - not many are in the middle. :)

 

There I can agree with you my friend haha and again I have to say I'm not one of those people that simple hate the game no, for me it's an amazing game in all sections except story and I take story here as important be cause it was important in 1.

 

Have a good day ?

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I liked Joel fine in the first game, he never really did anything for me to actually LOVE him, I think he's a very well-written character, he felt like a real and flawed human being. I like him better after the second game, when they show you he also had a artist vein, with his very cool sculptures, and building guitars, it made him feel even more real.

His death was horrible, but he had it coming, he knew it, I knew it, it was just the final logical conclusion to his story.

At the end I actually ended up loving Abby in his quest to better herself and find a new life. She's my favorite character of the franchise.

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Never outright hated Joel, but I largely agree with what you've said. I posted my thoughts on the game here.

 

23 hours ago, vanslayder said:

The plot turned great with slavers and Abby got into trap (when she thinks that she is talking to fireflies but they are slavers).
At the end it was so hard to see exhausted Abby who lost all her muscles. Elly decides to fight her again and she does it in the most disgusting way.

 

As cool as it was to dismantle a slave operation with Ellie, that whole final chapter felt unnecessary to me (including the wildly inappropriate fist fight). I would have been fine with it ending after the theater confrontation. Also, she WAS talking to Fireflies on the radio, and ultimately travels to join them in Catalina Island after Ellie lets her go, as shown on the title screen after completion.

 

Edited by ScarecrowsFate
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I think that the story and the point it is easier to understand that people thinks. It is just that people do not want to get it just because they are so attached to the characters. Man, this is a videogame. It is a story. It is fiction. 

For me, videogames is also an art. And this, Arts, is a way that an author has to express his/her feelings and to explain a story, deliver a message, etc. In this framework, freedom it is very important. We are NOBODY to tell the author what to do with the story/characters. This "power", belongs to them. Not to us. This is not a fan service. A Remake of RE2, 3, or 4 is fan service. This is not.

The point is that TLOU universe is grounded. I mean, despite the fact of the fictional framework of the Cordyceps and so on, the characters and their concerns, feelings, etc., are GROUNDED. They are just regular people. No super heroes. No super powers. Just people like me or you.

There is a quote from Ellie in Seattle Day 1 when she opens the Tank, "this guy from FEDRA was just an idiot killed by other idiots". This is the highlight of the whole thing.

Again, in the TLOU universe, there are not heroes. No villains. Just grounded people trying to survive in a hostile world. And every single actions can have consequences. Hate, revenge, does not give anything to you in any case. It just take away things from you.

Everybody is balanced. Grounded. People can die in any moment, any time, in any way. Again, no heroes. So nobody will die in a heroic way or espectacular. This is the reason why all NPC's have a name in this game. This has been done in order to increase this perception. Grounded and balanced.

Here is when the mature audience is coming to the pitch. They know this and understood the intention of the author. The rest are just not enough mature people, Fortnite kids, fanboys from other systems that did not even played the game and they will never do, people that were expecting a fan service, and IdioTubers, InflueIdiots, and other streamers that were just making a show for the views (money). Man, I am sorry, people are really bad actors. 

I am doing my second run. The story is clear, and it is well explained. It is SUPERB how you are playing like Ellie first to see her perspective and create hate on Abby and the other guys. And when the hate is higher... PAM! Now, you will see the same reality from another point of view. So, you will see that, like in real life, everything is about PERSPECTIVE. 

The heroes of ones can be the villains of others and viceversa. Ellie is good or bad in the same way Abby can be. Even, Abby is just a GREAT character that is like Joel. And I felt that specially when you are with Lev. 

Just an observation. Ellie has a knife. Abby has shives like Joel had in the first game. It is no coincidence. 

The final scene, is just Ellie reminding and respecting Joel with her last promise to him: "I will learn to forgive". And she did. Revenge took away everything from her. She has to stop, and leaving the guitar in the house means that she wants to start again a new life with new and better VALUES. 

We always played in games with the character that is so called the guy or the girl doing the right thing. But not always must be like that.

So for me, this approach to the universe and perspective, and the fact to deliver something brave and different, deserves the tag of MASTERPIECE. 

Just my opinion.
 

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5 hours ago, ScarecrowsFate said:

Also, she WAS talking to Fireflies on the radio, and ultimately travels to join them in Catalina Island after Ellie lets her go, as shown on the title screen after completion.

 

Hmmm. I was under impression that there were no fireflies and she was talking to slavers. I need to look at the ending one more time more carefully

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I took my time playing this game so I'm late to the party and I just wanted to drop my opinion here without opening new threads. I liked the game. It is a very immersive experience and the story is not as bad as some want to portrait it.  I stayed away from any spoiler and trailer so everything came as a surprise to me. I am far from being the biggest fan of the franchise, I played the original on ps3 and never finished it until the remaster a few years later. I'm not particularly a big fan of Joel either (after his selfish choices in the end of tlou), so his death didn't really bother me, and  I found it essential to kick start the story. What I see is a survival story of normal people in desperate times. Everything goes, there are no heroes, and most importantly anybody can die anytime (well, maybe except Ellie). I accept ND decisions regarding story and characters developments because.. it's art. It's their take on the survival genre. It's their product and as always nowadays people don't accept if things don't turn out they way they want (happens with any big franchise).

The gameplay is as smooth as oil and it was so much fun during the stealth encounters with human enemies. The details and effects of firearms damage on the bodies are insane. Got lucky and didn't run into any bug. I am going for the NG+ and platinum now.

I'm sure everything I wrote has been already said somewhere else in this forum, I just wanted to write it anyway. 

 

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8 hours ago, vanslayder said:

Hmmm. I was under impression that there were no fireflies and she was talking to slavers. I need to look at the ending one more time more carefully

I had the same feeling too, mainly cause the fireflies on the radio didn't really sound enthusiastic to hear from Abby.

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  • 3 weeks later...

It is really nice to see all the different opinions and feelings towards the same game and characters. For me personally, I did not agree with you at all about Joel being stupid or uneducated. Not that any of that would even matter at this point. The thing is, he made a decision at the end of the first game. Some people agreed with it and some people did not agree with it. That is the beauty of it. It is just like the whole "Trolley Dilemma". The key for me was the fact that they never asked Ellie. At the end of the day, the least you can do is ask her what she wants. They even touch on it when Abby tells her dad that if she was in the same place, she would want them to proceed with the surgery. No one bothered to ask Ellie what she wanted. That small detail is where I feel that we hit the grey area. 

 

There is one thing that I think they did perfectly in the game. It is that they made Ellie gay. It is that simple fact that prevents any confusion over her relationship with Joel. It keeps it in the realm of a father and daughter relationship. There are moments in the game where it could be construed as more then that. For example, when Ellie is smelling one of his shirts in his house. It is just a girl who misses a guy who she looked up to like a father. By making her sexual orientation clear, there are no misconceptions and no one is trying to imply otherwise. I think that was a great call on the Dev's part. 

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On 7/14/2020 at 2:50 AM, vanslayder said:

Ok guys, I have read a lot of angry comments about this game and a lot of people want the story to be changed.
Let me tell you my alternate view on the events. Another perspective as it came to my mind :)
English is not my main language so I am sorry for mistakes.
First of all, Joel was never my beloved character. I hated Joel so much after the events at the end of the first game.
He is stupid, uneducated and very very selfish person (in my opinion). I can't imagine someone being so selfish to sacrifice vaccine for millions of people in favour of just one life.
I hated him so much and I didn't want to play second game at all because I didn't want to participate in this madness - when people praise the deeds of Joel. I didn't want to play as him again.
I got the Part II by accident - good price in the local store and everyone are talking about it. No expectations at all - I didn't read any leaks because I just didn't bother with the game at all.
Ok, so it started with all this sugar story about Tommy supporting Joel decision to save Elly. Dina and Elly love story, etc.
And then THIS happened in the first hour - Joel is brutally killed by some people who chased him to get revenge.
Oh boy, that was so cool. I was so excited about justice served and this piece of **** is dead now. 
I am completely agree with later in game Nora words - "This little shit deserved every last piece of it". Love it, including the way they did it.
Elly and Tommy are left alive and at this point I started to slowly hate Elly the same way I hated Joel.
Let me explain - Elly knows exactly why they killed Joel. She doesn't know that Abby is the daughter of that doctor, but she definitely knows who they are and why they killed Joel.
Still, she wants revenge for justice - at this point my only hope was that Elly would get killed eventually. 
When we start playing as Abby and game tells us who the Wolfs really are, I start feeling full support for Abby.
At the point when Elly kills Mel and Owen with later Abby vs Elly fight I was almost sure that Elly would die and game ends. This would be the perfect ending for me.
But Abby does the second mistake to let her live again. And Elly again wants to get revenge. I didn't want to play Elly any more, I didn't want to go for Abby but the game forced me to do it.
The plot turned great with slavers and Abby got into trap (when she thinks that she is talking to fireflies but they are slavers).
At the end it was so hard to see exhausted Abby who lost all her muscles. Elly decides to fight her again and she does it in the most disgusting way. Threatening to kill unconscious child whom she doesn't know. She is the same piece of shit as Joel was.
Abby is dehydrated, starving and Elly is using knife (yes, Elly is wounded as well, but still).
I tried to fail a fight hoping that if Abby wins then I will see some kind of better ending but no. Just Game Over if you let Abby kill yourself.
Anyway, they both alive at the end, so not so bad for Abby :)
That is it  - the best story so far for me. I can't say I have ever played anything when I was so involved in the story. Beat the game 2 times now and finishing my platinum.
I know this is not popular opinion but ND achieved everything I could hope in the Part II. Awesome plot and Abby got her justice over Joel.

 

Okay I couldn't care less for part 2. Part one however, is among my favorite games of all time. Just wanted to say, you call Joel stupid, selfish and uneducated for not chosing to sacrifice Ellie for the sake of humanity. Is he really though?

 

He had lost everything when Sarah died. Whatever substitute for love he had in the apocalyptic world died with Tess. Ellie was his new lease of life. He saw a daughter he lost in her. I'm asking you, if you were in his shoes, having nobody but a little girl in this world, would you sacrifice her for others? Would you seriously even consider giving up the only beloved person for the sake of humanity? I sure wouldn't.

 

Joel is not a good or a bad person. He's simply a human. And we can say we would do something in a certain situation but we can never be sure. To me nobody is either 100% black or white. That's his daughter for the love of God and I sure freaking hope my pops wouldn't sacrifice me just to save the world. Coz to a parent a child is just that, their world. 

Edited by Herbset
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The beauty of the first game - its narrative high point, in my opinion - is the ambiguity of Joel's actions at the end. It throws everything at you: the shoot-out through the hospital, killing the surgeon, executing the lady on the floor, and finally Joel lying to Ellie's face. Regardless of your own personal feelings towards it, there's no denying that the whole set-up is designed to be unsettling, designed to give you no moral or social answers.

 

Within seconds of starting Part II, that ambiguity is gone. And for what? For what is really, at its heart, a revenge story. The only subversion comes from the ending, and of course the relentless diversity (the apocalypse is multicultural, apparently. Unlike all four writers/directors behind the actual game). 

 

I seem to recall an interview some time after the original TLOU came out, where someone suggested Joel and Ellie's character arc finished with the first game. If that's true, I can honestly see someone, at some point, bringing Joel and Ellie back into the picture not for some grand operatic vision, but for marketing purposes. The story of Part II simply doesn't justify the use of the original characters. 

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59 minutes ago, StressEater said:

There is one thing that I think they did perfectly in the game. It is that they made Ellie gay. It is that simple fact that prevents any confusion over her relationship with Joel. It keeps it in the realm of a father and daughter relationship. There are moments in the game where it could be construed as more then that. For example, when Ellie is smelling one of his shirts in his house. It is just a girl who misses a guy who she looked up to like a father. By making her sexual orientation clear, there are no misconceptions and no one is trying to imply otherwise. I think that was a great call on the Dev's part. 

 

ND did a great job because they were being inclusive and trying to represent more that the heterosexual narrative that is represented in the majority of games. No one's homosexuality should be used to defend/explain the non-existence of a heterosexual one, and is incredibly ignorant if thats how gay characters are used. I don't know what you saw, but there was hardly any suggestion that there was anything more than a father/daughter relationship between Joel and Ellie and if you're seeing more that that, I think you may need to re-evaluate how you read those moments. 

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4 minutes ago, black__bunny said:

 

ND did a great job because they were being inclusive and trying to represent more that the heterosexual narrative that is represented in the majority of games. No one's homosexuality should be used to defend/explain the non-existence of a heterosexual one, and is incredibly ignorant if thats how gay characters are used. I don't know what you saw, but there was hardly any suggestion that there was anything more than a father/daughter relationship between Joel and Ellie and if you're seeing more that that, I think you may need to re-evaluate how you read those moments. 

Well said

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1 hour ago, black__bunny said:

 

ND did a great job because they were being inclusive and trying to represent more that the heterosexual narrative that is represented in the majority of games. No one's homosexuality should be used to defend/explain the non-existence of a heterosexual one, and is incredibly ignorant if thats how gay characters are used. I don't know what you saw, but there was hardly any suggestion that there was anything more than a father/daughter relationship between Joel and Ellie and if you're seeing more that that, I think you may need to re-evaluate how you read those moments. 

 

I love how you stated the intentions that Naughty Dog had when revealing Ellie's sexual orientation. I had no idea that you either worked for ND or that you had an inside scoop on what was going on during the decision making at ND. Since you work there or are so close to the development team, can you please do me a favor and have them send me an exclusive signed copy of the  first game? Thanks, that would be great.

Now back to being serious. Clearly you rushed reading my post and neglected to notice that I pretty much said the exact same thing you did. I just chose to say it a little differently. I state that the fact that she was gay prevents anyone from seeing it any other way than what it is. Which is me clearly saying that there "was hardly any suggestion that there was anything more than a father/daughter relationship between Joel and Ellie" (as you clearly state). I then followed it up with examples on how someone could get confused or choose to misconstrue the facts. So, you either didn't read my post are are just looking to troll someone and start a fight. 

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15 minutes ago, StressEater said:

 

I love how you stated the intentions that Naughty Dog had when revealing Ellie's sexual orientation. I had no idea that you either worked for ND or that you had an inside scoop on what was going on during the decision making at ND. Since you work there or are so close to the development team, can you please do me a favor and have them send me an exclusive signed copy of the  first game? Thanks, that would be great.

Now back to being serious. Clearly you rushed reading my post and neglected to notice that I pretty much said the exact same thing you did. I just chose to say it a little differently. I state that the fact that she was gay prevents anyone from seeing it any other way than what it is. Which is me clearly saying that there "was hardly any suggestion that there was anything more than a father/daughter relationship between Joel and Ellie" (as you clearly state). I then followed it up with examples on how someone could get confused or choose to misconstrue the facts. So, you either didn't read my post are are just looking to troll someone and start a fight. 

 

Nope, its because I read. There's plenty of articles out there on ND trying to be more inclusive/diverse in their game. Here's one specifically mentioning the topic you have brought up in case you have trouble https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2020/06/11/ellie-origin-the-last-of-us/ 

"Naughty Dog’s philosophy is about telling “more interesting, fresh stories,” and that includes narratives about minorities, sexualities and religious beliefs that aren’t widely shown in video games or other areas of pop-culture, Druckmann says."

 

We didn't say the same thing. At all. Your post made it sound like her sexuality was used primarily as a tool to prevent anyone from seeing some heterosexual narrative when, there is no suggestion of that (and no, sniffing shirt doesn't count) and not the reason her character is gay. 

 

Your response  actually makes it look like your trying to troll and start a fight friend. Leave the paragraph of sarcasm behind and have a discussion if you want, but I'm not engaging further with you if that's how you respond. I read your post just fine, maybe it doesn't read how you wanted it to? If it does, perhaps have a closer look at mine because somehow you think we are saying the same thing. 

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39 minutes ago, black__bunny said:

 

Nope, its because I read. There's plenty of articles out there on ND trying to be more inclusive/diverse in their game. Here's one specifically mentioning the topic you have brought up in case you have trouble https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2020/06/11/ellie-origin-the-last-of-us/ 

"Naughty Dog’s philosophy is about telling “more interesting, fresh stories,” and that includes narratives about minorities, sexualities and religious beliefs that aren’t widely shown in video games or other areas of pop-culture, Druckmann says."

 

We didn't say the same thing. At all. Your post made it sound like her sexuality was used primarily as a tool to prevent anyone from seeing some heterosexual narrative when, there is no suggestion of that (and no, sniffing shirt doesn't count) and not the reason her character is gay. 

 

Your response  actually makes it look like your trying to troll and start a fight friend. Leave the paragraph of sarcasm behind and have a discussion if you want, but I'm not engaging further with you if that's how you respond. I read your post just fine, maybe it doesn't read how you wanted it to? If it does, perhaps have a closer look at mine because somehow you think we are saying the same thing. 

 

Yes, in fact we can have a respectable conversation. I will send you a private message with my response and we can proceed with our conversation. That way we can further this discussion all the while not hijacking the thread and taking away from what the original author wanted to discuss. 

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On 8/1/2020 at 6:07 AM, StressEater said:

 

Yes, in fact we can have a respectable conversation. I will send you a private message with my response and we can proceed with our conversation. That way we can further this discussion all the while not hijacking the thread and taking away from what the original author wanted to discuss. 

Ellie is 14 in the first part. Who TF would even think of their relationship as anything but father daughter one

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6 hours ago, Herbset said:

Ellie is 14 in the first part. Who TF would even think of their relationship as anything but father daughter one

 

Hey Herbset, hows it going? I am not sure as to why you are quoting that particular conversation. I am not sure if you intended to quote a previous statement. If so, I am also not sure as to which one, since I clearly stated that their relationship was nothing more than a wholesome father and daughter relationship. So, that leads me to believe that you may be asking a question and directing it towards me. In that case, scientists have studied in depths the relationships and the psychology behind them for many years. They came up with syndromes like the Nightingale Syndrome and the White Knight Syndrome. These are still studied today and referenced all over the world. So, its not at all far fetched for someone to be rescued by another person and then they thinks that they love that person. Luckily that is not the case with TLOU2 since the developers have clearly made that not an option (which was great on their part, it is always nice to see all sexual orientations represented). A really good example of this would be the movie The Professional. The leading role saves a young girl from being murdered. He then takes her in and takes care of her. She in turn thinks that she has fallen in love with him. In the movie she is only 12 years old. There are case studies with people who are as young as 10 and 11 (some even younger but they are a rare occurrence). Which is unfathomable to me. When you reference the age of 14, I am not sure how much of a factor that really plays. With the alarming rate of 14 year old girls giving birth these days, it's a little scary. But, who am I to judge? If you would like to continue this conversations, please feel free to send me a message. I would really like to avoid steering this thread away from what the original author intended for it to be.

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3 hours ago, StressEater said:

 

Hey Herbset, hows it going? I am not sure as to why you are quoting that particular conversation. I am not sure if you intended to quote a previous statement. If so, I am also not sure as to which one, since I clearly stated that their relationship was nothing more than a wholesome father and daughter relationship. So, that leads me to believe that you may be asking a question and directing it towards me. In that case, scientists have studied in depths the relationships and the psychology behind them for many years. They came up with syndromes like the Nightingale Syndrome and the White Knight Syndrome. These are still studied today and referenced all over the world. So, its not at all far fetched for someone to be rescued by another person and then they thinks that they love that person. Luckily that is not the case with TLOU2 since the developers have clearly made that not an option (which was great on their part, it is always nice to see all sexual orientations represented). A really good example of this would be the movie The Professional. The leading role saves a young girl from being murdered. He then takes her in and takes care of her. She in turn thinks that she has fallen in love with him. In the movie she is only 12 years old. There are case studies with people who are as young as 10 and 11 (some even younger but they are a rare occurrence). Which is unfathomable to me. When you reference the age of 14, I am not sure how much of a factor that really plays. With the alarming rate of 14 year old girls giving birth these days, it's a little scary. But, who am I to judge? If you would like to continue this conversations, please feel free to send me a message. I would really like to avoid steering this thread away from what the original author intended for it to be.

As black_bunny said seems like you are trying to start something. Just drop it man. I don't care about possibility of Ellie having certain syndromes, normal folks wouldn't even think about it. She's 14 and that all that matters, you bringing up all the issues people might have is well, worrying. Some folks are gay some are straight, not all relationships between individuals have to be sexual. And ya, I quoted the wrong post ma bad. I was referring to your first entry. 

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