[VIDEO] Cuphead and the Ethics of Trophy Hunting

[starcrunch061]

15 hours ago, Helyx said:

Yeah, as an outsider looking in, I'm sure you think I'm being a prick. Thing is, I've known these boys for over a decade.

 

To be honest, he probably didn't understand what you were saying. It happened with me earlier.

 

Anyway, I like some things about the video, but dislike others. I agree that the mistake is on the devs' part, not the hunters'. But there are numerous problems with how this particular set of trophies autopops that do raise some questions here. This was discussed at length on the Cuphead forum.

 

7 hours ago, Thrillhelm said:

Don't come up with ethics. Trophy hunters do not need gatekeepers who decide which trophies are good or bad. The community is too toxic already.

 

I'll take "Bunch of buzzwords!" for $1600, Alex!

 

Seriously, posts discussing "gatekeepers" and "toxicity" are better left to gamefaqs. There is nothing toxic about debating the ethics of trophy hunting (though there is something rather warped about trying to moot such discussions using the aforementioned buzzwords).

 

You don't agree. That's fine. That's welcome. But you don't get to silence other people's views because they do not accord with your own.

 

3 hours ago, Spaz said:

That is why this is a toxic community, people can't agree to disagree and just walk away.

 

Why should people "agree to disagree"? So long as debates don't turn personal, there's nothing wrong with fighting for your position.

 

And there's that word again...

Edited August 27, 2020 by starcrunch061

[djb5f]

14 hours ago, TurtlePM said:

 

Are you guys for real?!

Have you been following the rarity of the game? It has been decreasing rarity since its release, it wasn't Ultra Rare after 3 days.

Someone posted an exploit last saturday (if I recall correctly, I checked the rarity and it was around 16%). So, no, whatever you're saying in the video is absolutely wrong.

 

yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  Let’s not pretend that this was some ultra rare platinum until the exploit was made widely known.  And I think the exploit involves knowing someone IRL who has beaten it and skimming off them?  Not exactly game-changing as not many will be able to use it.

 

I think it is funny that this whole website is full of boost sessions, cheese and exploits, tips and guides to take the difficulty out of any game, but when it comes to Cuphead, then people get bent out of shape?  
 

For the record I don’t own the game nor plan to play it even though I can appreciate the artwork, it just does not look appealing to play (to me). 

[scemopagliaccioh]

I remember the game having an high trophy rarity before the exploit, though, I even made a message about it, asking if  game "journalists" overrated its difficulty after that tutorial showing.

Edited August 27, 2020 by scemopagliaccioh

[Alos88]

I only purchase ethically-sourced, responsibly-farmed trophies from my local independent games retailer.

[N1NJ4_V4MP1R3]

7 minutes ago, scemopagliaccioh said:

I remember the game having an high trophy rarity before the exploit, though, I even made a message about it, asking if  game "journalists" overrated its difficulty after that tutorial showing.

 

 

13 minutes ago, djb5f said:

yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  Let’s not pretend that this was some ultra rare platinum until the exploit was made widely known.  And I think the exploit involves knowing someone IRL who has beaten it and skimming off them?  Not exactly game-changing as not many will be able to use it.

 

I think it is funny that this whole website is full of boost sessions, cheese and exploits, tips and guides to take the difficulty out of any game, but when it comes to Cuphead, then people get bent out of shape?  

I of course don’t expect everyone to watch the video, I just want to clarify the point of the video is not that Cuphead is super hard and that it’s now easy, the discussion is about the broader situation where difficult games are made easier through exploits. Sorry that isn’t clearer with the title! 

[djb5f]

6 minutes ago, N1NJ4_V4MP1R3 said:

 

 

I of course don’t expect everyone to watch the video, I just want to clarify the point of the video is not that Cuphead is super hard and that it’s now easy, the discussion is about the broader situation where difficult games are made easier through exploits. Sorry that isn’t clearer with the title! 

yeah understand, but the opening post states that the platinum rarity decreased tenfold over the course of a week which is not remotely accurate.  

[Thrillhelm]

53 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

To be honest, he probably didn't understand what you were saying. It happened with me earlier.

 

Anyway, I like some things about the video, but dislike others. I agree that the mistake is on the devs' part, not the hunters'. But there are numerous problems with how this particular set of trophies autopops that do raise some questions here. This was discussed at length on the Cuphead forum.

 

 

I'll take "Bunch of buzzwords!" for $1600, Alex!

 

Seriously, posts discussing "gatekeepers" and "toxicity" are better left to gamefaqs. There is nothing toxic about debating the ethics of trophy hunting (though there is something rather warped about trying to moot such discussions using the aforementioned buzzwords).

 

You don't agree. That's fine. That's welcome. But you don't get to silence other people's views because they do not accord with your own.

 

 

Why should people "agree to disagree"? So long as debates don't turn personal, there's nothing wrong with fighting for your position.

 

And there's that word again...

So you decide now whats right or wrong in that discussion? The OP talks about ethics, a much bigger buzzword than whatever word you accuse me to use in that discussion. Ethics, like I am obliged to a community in which people try to decide whats good trophy hunting or bad trophy hunting.

 

The Cuphead platinum being stripped from an ultra rare status because the devs messed up is nothing to lose sleep about. And so we have Ratalaika games with easy platinums by the dozen? Well times are changing and it isnt 2010 anymore. If people miss their bragging rights, deal with it. 

 

[scemopagliaccioh]

5 minutes ago, N1NJ4_V4MP1R3 said:

 

 

I of course don’t expect everyone to watch the video, I just want to clarify the point of the video is not that Cuphead is super hard and that it’s now easy, the discussion is about the broader situation where difficult games are made easier through exploits. Sorry that isn’t clearer with the title! 

? sorry, at work and I can't watch,  I think, just like Cuphead's difficulty, it's a subjective manner.

For example, my own view  is that a trophy hunter can take any exploit he so wishes, so long as it's not cheating, I see very little difference between  say, cheesing Der Richter with Zanmato, Lingering Will with negative comboes and this thing with Cuphead, you put in a specific schematic in order to casually stroll away the problem under what's possible in the boundaries of the game.  Others might get angry that say, an exploit that requires more playstations  of the same generation or something along those lines might give one an advantage, as then it touches the pay 2 win discussion alongside other games like Ratalaika, for those that care about the  number of platinum, so to speak.

[starcrunch061]

1 minute ago, djb5f said:

yeah understand, but the opening post states that the platinum rarity decreased tenfold over the course of a week which is not remotely accurate.  

 

That is correct. It has decreased, but when I checked (early on, long before this exploit), it was about 13%. I've never personally seen it below 10%, so it hasn't sniffed UR status. It looks like a couple hundred people have gained the plat since then. I doubt all of them used the exploit, either.

 

Honestly, I think a better example would be Hollow Knight, a plat that was UR for some time, but now has a rarity that is rising like crazy because of the invincibility glitch.

[Joe Dubz]

2 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

That is correct. It has decreased, but when I checked (early on, long before this exploit), it was about 13%. I've never personally seen it below 10%, so it hasn't sniffed UR status. It looks like a couple hundred people have gained the plat since then. I doubt all of them used the exploit, either.

 

Honestly, I think a better example would be Hollow Knight, a plat that was UR for some time, but now has a rarity that is rising like crazy because of the invincibility glitch.

I agree, as best as I can remember, aside from when it first released, I don't think it generally stayed under 10%. For me, it was definitely a challenge, maybe 5/10, but not one worthy of UR status anyway in my opinion. I'm not crazy about the idea that people can pop it this easily, which will def have some impact on the bottom-line of where it falls in the rarity spectrum. But at the same time, trophy hunters gon' hunt and at the end of the day, this doesn't affect me one bit anyway. More power to you if you want to essentially cheat your way to this plat; that's on you!

[N1NJ4_V4MP1R3]

24 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

Honestly, I think a better example would be Hollow Knight, a plat that was UR for some time, but now has a rarity that is rising like crazy because of the invincibility glitch.

Hollow Knight is specifically mentioned as an example during the video too  

[EightBitArtist]

cuphead wasnt an ultra rare trophy before the exploit. it isnt that hard of a game. i platted it in 2 days with never playing it before it came to ps4.

[N1NJ4_V4MP1R3]

6 hours ago, EightBitArtist said:

cuphead wasnt an ultra rare trophy before the exploit. it isnt that hard of a game. i platted it in 2 days with never playing it before it came to ps4.

Like I mentioned in the video, I’ve yet to play it myself but it does seem to be similar to Dark Souls in terms of difficulty. Overblown by the media  

[AJ_Radio]

15 hours ago, Thrillhelm said:

If an ultra-hard game has easy trophies or gets an exploit (since a community is good for finding those) so be it, do not shed a tear because all of a sudden Super Meat Boy etc isn't an ultra-rare platinum anymore. There are plenty other games that have rare platinums, if you hunt those you need to adapt anyways.

Look at my list. I did Super Meat Boy myself and know how difficult it was. 
 

I’m working on Surgeon Simulator, another hard game but for entirely different reasons. 
 

I know which games have rares and what don’t. While I like a challenge every now and then, I don’t go overboard with them. Just like I don’t go overboard with easy games just because they’re easy.

 

15 hours ago, Thrillhelm said:

However, people forget that nowadays there are far more games released than back in PS3 times. Back then there has been a variety of difficulties to get a platinum. For example, Terminator Salvation was said to be one the easiest platinums back then in 2010, and games like Dante's Inferno or Burnout Paradise were said to be easy too. Occasionally, we had games like Megamind or Hannah Montana, or even short indie games like Spare Parts that coud be done in a day. What we also had back then (early 2010s) were insanely difficult platinums, the infamous Wipeout HD, Lost Planet 2 or to some degree Killzone 2. Even LittleBigPlanet was said to be insanely difficult. 

We played those games because they were available.

That is how it has always been. 
 

A generation comes along and with that brings in new titles, some good, some bad. 
 

I agree, but Dante’s Inferno and Burnout Paradise still had you doing more than what today’s AAA games offer. Collectibles were highly missable in Dante, same for God of War 3. Nowadays they just make the collectibles trackable and on the map so more people would find them. You make something more streamlined and accessible, you attract more of the masses. That is exactly what AAA gaming has done. 
 

You cannot dispute older games were more difficult than newer ones, due to game design and hardware limitations.

 

I’m a guy in his 30s. I’m not some high school kid that just picked up a gaming controller for the first time in his life a few months ago. I played a number of games you listed on the Xbox 360. 
 

15 hours ago, Thrillhelm said:

The times for hardcore platinums in AAA titles is coming to an end, and that's fine with me.

So something like Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus and Devil May Cry V, what do you think of those games?

 

15 hours ago, Thrillhelm said:

Take a look at Undertale. Nobody will say this is a bad game, but for the platinum you do not have to finish the game at all, no matter if it is a pacifist or genocide run. You do not get to see the real final boss at all - yet somehow there were no complaints about that.

Trine 2 on the PS3 and Teslagrad are the same way. 
 

People didn’t complain about Trine 2, because it’s an easy platinum. 
 

15 hours ago, Thrillhelm said:

Again, these games are available so we play them. I am tired of any elitist thinking in the trophy hunting community. If you are a completionist so be it, same goes for people looking for milestones, hard platinums or simply a large pile of trophies in general. If Mediatonic hadn't been bashing trophy hunters (the Infallible trophy just to piss people off) I would not even know now that the large chunk of easy platinums is that much a problem to some site users here.

Many completionists are not elitists. I am a completionist, but some people here regard me as an elitist for the posts I make, but not because my account has high completion. 
 

People who do milestones generally do that for fun and to make their profile look better. 
 

Those who hunt ultra rares, not necessarily elitists. 
 

Well again this goes right back to me saying both sides are guilty. Both the elitists and the casuals who don’t play to finish their games as much as they play to have fun. 
 

That’s fine. That’s great. But when people feel they’re overly entitled and obligated to get trophies, they will whine and moan whenever there is something that requires more than the effort they put in. I am saying this for both the hardcore trophy hunters who speed through and use exploits, and casuals who have a 30 - 40 percent trophy percentage profile with next to no rare trophies. 
 

There will always be elitists, no matter what community you go to. 
 

Trophies don’t have to be accessible for everyone. YouTube doesn’t have to pay a single dime to anybody who gets revenue from ads and is a partner. But they do, so mediocre pieces of trash like PewDiePie can continue to make millions.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Spaz

[KaKrackle]

I think you guys would benefit from a little more red meat in your diets, and a few thousand hours in the gym. Maybe a spray tan to.
Other than that decent video.

[lilpain97]

On 27/08/2020 at 3:21 PM, djb5f said:

yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  Let’s not pretend that this was some ultra rare platinum until the exploit was made widely known.  And I think the exploit involves knowing someone IRL who has beaten it and skimming off them?  Not exactly game-changing as not many will be able to use it.

 

I think it is funny that this whole website is full of boost sessions, cheese and exploits, tips and guides to take the difficulty out of any game, but when it comes to Cuphead, then people get bent out of shape?  
 

For the record I don’t own the game nor plan to play it even though I can appreciate the artwork, it just does not look appealing to play (to me). 

Yhhhhhhh I said this in the fall guys threads... Everyone lost their shit about the exploit but this site is full of that and the people usually complaining use said exploits in other games... I can never take the people here seriously.

[Lezonidas]

Why does it matter? Do you get something if you get more platinums or rarer ones? I do it for myself, to feel acomplished and to know that I have completed the game and all it has to offer, I got Cuphead's platinum a few weeks ago and if other people want to get it cheating, it's fine for me, I won't feel less acomplished, I won't feel like I have not completed the game, I won't recieve anything anyway for having a rarer platinum, why should I care?

[starcrunch061]

20 minutes ago, lilpain97 said:

Yhhhhhhh I said this in the fall guys threads... Everyone lost their shit about the exploit but this site is full of that and the people usually complaining use said exploits in other games... I can never take the people here seriously.

 

Yeah, I don't get that either.

 

"How dare you use this exploit! It's, uhhh, far worse than the hundreds of exploits I've used elsewhere!"

 

Besides, if an exploit exists, that's on the devs, not the player.

Edited September 3, 2020 by starcrunch061

[lilpain97]

21 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

Yeah, I don't get that either.

 

"How dare you use this exploit! It's, uhhh, far worse than the hundreds of exploits I've used elsewhere!"

 

Besides, if an exploit exists, that's on the devs, not the player.

Pretty much. Everyone here has used em on games. 

[AJ_Radio]

6 hours ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

Yeah, I don't get that either.

 

"How dare you use this exploit! It's, uhhh, far worse than the hundreds of exploits I've used elsewhere!"

 

Besides, if an exploit exists, that's on the devs, not the player.

 

6 hours ago, lilpain97 said:

Pretty much. Everyone here has used em on games. 

Like the Debug Menu in the Jak and Daxter games. Before that.... the Orb Exploit. 
 

Don’t forget the Bolt Exploit in Ratchet and Clank. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Spaz

[lilpain97]

10 hours ago, Spaz said:

 

Like the Debug Menu in the Jak and Daxter games. Before that.... the Orb Exploit. 
 

Don’t forget the Bolt Exploit in Ratchet and Clank. 

I tend to not use exploits like this ever. I don't think I ever have as imo it ruins the point of the game. But yeah exactly like those games but no one cares about those I assume because they aren't hard. 

[N1NJ4_V4MP1R3]

18 hours ago, KaKrackle said:

I think you guys would benefit from a little more red meat in your diets, and a few thousand hours in the gym. Maybe a spray tan to.
Other than that decent video.

Thanks for the feedback  look out for the next video, we will be ripped haha 

[AusLeviathan]

I'm thinking of when I was back in Uni and a course coordinator forgot to include a section of an exam in the study notes that was worth 25%, so naturally half the class failed. He comes into the lecture a week after the exam and announces that everyone will be given full marks for that section. You could think of that as a real life exploit I guess.

 

I think that as long as the exploit can be performed by anyone with the game without the assistance of software or firmware then it's okay. I mean a lot of exploits are essentially indistinguishable from playing the game normally so you'd never be able to be sure anyway.

[AJ_Radio]

29 minutes ago, lilpain97 said:

I tend to not use exploits like this ever. I don't think I ever have as imo it ruins the point of the game. But yeah exactly like those games but no one cares about those I assume because they aren't hard. 

Because you still had to do everything else legit. 
 

You sir, get my respect.