Eraezr

[SPOILERS] I'm conflicted on this game's ending.

16 posts in this topic

I kinda feel like they intended jin's story to be the rise of the ninja and we all know the ninja did things a samurai would never do but if memory serves some samurai where also ninja as a way of working outside the rules when such tactics where called for and even the shoguns employed ninja 

 

So by thinking of jin as becoming a ninja it kinda changes how you have to look at the ending because he did the wrong thing for the right reasons and his tactics would be useful in the future basically having an "enemy" on your side to fight the enemies or someone willing to fight dirty and lay honor aside for the greater good

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4 hours ago, Taliesin_2943 said:

I kinda feel like they intended jin's story to be the rise of the ninja and we all know the ninja did things a samurai would never do but if memory serves some samurai where also ninja as a way of working outside the rules when such tactics where called for and even the shoguns employed ninja 

 

So by thinking of jin as becoming a ninja it kinda changes how you have to look at the ending because he did the wrong thing for the right reasons and his tactics would be useful in the future basically having an "enemy" on your side to fight the enemies or someone willing to fight dirty and lay honor aside for the greater good

This is how I kind of chose to interpreted it as well. Though the thought of seppuku crossed my mind as well. But I feel like Jin has mostly moved on from his samurai code by the end. So even if given the option I probably wouldn't kill him off. 
Still, the choice at the end was a tough one for me. But I honored Lord Shimura's wish and code. And gave him a warrior's death. And he got my gorgeous white horse, Sora killed. So F that guy.

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1 hour ago, Jaina34 said:

This is how I kind of chose to interpreted it as well. Though the thought of seppuku crossed my mind as well. But I feel like Jin has mostly moved on from his samurai code by the end. So even if given the option I probably wouldn't kill him off. 
Still, the choice at the end was a tough one for me. But I honored Lord Shimura's wish and code. And gave him a warrior's death. And he got my gorgeous white horse, Sora killed. So F that guy.

Lol I let him live (same reason cause he got my horse killed :'(   )  cause to him living with it would be worse than death for him 

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It took me around 10 hours to really get into the game, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. The ending was kinda surprising for me, but I do enjoy how the possibility for a sequel in mainland Japan could come in the future.

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But the war wasn't exactly over.  There were still a lot of Mongols stranded on the island.  Perhaps once they are completely eradicated then Jin would contemplate seppuku?

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Not to offend anyone, but I stopped reading at "whitewash".  Sometimes a story is just a story.

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2 hours ago, Bilpe said:

Not to offend anyone, but I stopped reading at "whitewash".  Sometimes a story is just a story.

I dont believe its white washed at all its more like him coming a deeper understanding of things necessary like how to save his people without anymore casualty its like the anime naruto they have a code where mission is priority which means if a ninja has been taken or injured they should be left behind but one ninja in particular realise how wrong it is to leave your fellow comrades behind for the sake of the mission, that is smiliar where jin wanted to prevent any casuals from being killed unnecessarily. Its more like the game comes to the point of morals and ethics where you either follow the code or believe what is right

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On 9/8/2020 at 0:38 AM, Taliesin_2943 said:

I kinda feel like they intended jin's story to be the rise of the ninja and we all know the ninja did things a samurai would never do but if memory serves some samurai where also ninja as a way of working outside the rules when such tactics where called for and even the shoguns employed ninja 

 

So by thinking of jin as becoming a ninja it kinda changes how you have to look at the ending because he did the wrong thing for the right reasons and his tactics would be useful in the future basically having an "enemy" on your side to fight the enemies or someone willing to fight dirty and lay honor aside for the greater good

 

I also saw the rise of the ninja allegory too. If it was just that to me, then I would have let it rest (even if. . .culturally ninjas were despised in Ancient Japan, rather than having the street creds which the characters of Naruto enjoyed). However, the dimension of the Ghost was going to have rippling effects socio-politically. Fear-factor aside, it was a force of nature that openly defied the shōgun, the highest reign of power in Japan, just beneath the imperial royalty (who are said to be descended from divinity). To which I consider, did Jin in all his upbringing and duty to Tsushima and Japan, did he consider these implications in that moment?

 

As far as my Japanese history tells me, ninja clans were clandestinely employed by warlords of certain clans, but never the shōgun himself. 

12 hours ago, Snake2410 said:

But the war wasn't exactly over.  There were still a lot of Mongols stranded on the island.  Perhaps once they are completely eradicated then Jin would contemplate seppuku?

 

With consideration to the sizeable force Jin's uncle had at his command, I'd say scattered remains of the Mongol force had a mortal coil that was limited to mere days -without their leader and the invading force crippled. Although, one could also say it's a welcome thing for video game convenience, since the player still has opportunity to sample combat against different classes of opponents as well as an easier trophy clean-up. Even straw-hat ronins were found here and there, post-story.

Edited by Eraezr
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1 hour ago, Eraezr said:

 

I also saw the rise of the ninja allegory too. If it was just that to me, then I would have let it rest (even if. . .culturally ninjas were despised in Ancient Japan, rather than having the street creds which the characters of Naruto enjoyed). However, the dimension of the Ghost was going to have rippling effects socio-politically. Fear-factor aside, it was a force of nature that openly defied the shōgun, the highest reign of power in Japan, just beneath the imperial royalty (who are said to be descended from divinity). To which I consider, did Jin in all his upbringing and duty to Tsushima and Japan, did he consider these implications in that moment?

 

As far as my Japanese history tells me, ninja clans were clandestinely employed by warlords of certain clans, but never the shōgun himself. 

 

With consideration to the sizeable force Jin's uncle had at his command, I'd say scattered remains of the Mongol force had a mortal coil that was limited to mere days -without their leader and the invading force crippled. Although, one could also say it's a welcome thing for video game convenience, since the player still has opportunity to sample combat against different classes of opponents as well as an easier trophy clean-up. Even straw-hat ronins were found here and there, post-story.

Adopting the Ghost persona also had him question what honor really means to him, especially once he dueled his uncle the last time.  He may no longer agree with the reasons for one to commit seppuku, much less his already questioning of the samurai honor code previously. 

 

He's no longer a samurai at the end, they took that away from him and perhaps that changed his opinions on such things.  He may no longer feel honor bound to such samurai traditions and will now forge his own honor bound code.  

Edited by Snake2410
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I killed Lord Shimura. Even if Jin doesn't stick to the samurai code of honour as strongly as he used to, it still has been and always will be the most important thing to his uncle. Anything other than a warrior's death for Shimura would be an insult. Even if Shimura was spared, he'd never renounce his samurai ways so Jin wouldn't be able to have any kind of relationship with him going forward as he's still a traitor in the eyes of the shogun. Shimura would have to live with the knowledge that he'd failed the shogun, failed at making Jin his son and heir, been denied a warrior's death and would have to watch as the shogun continues to hunt Jin. Besides, sparing Shimura felt like too much of a non-ending to me. It's not like we'd get to see how their relationship would develop afterwards, at least not unless we get a sequel at some point, which I assume would have the shogun as the main antagonist, but like I said, Shimura is samurai 'til the end so he would never go up against the shogun with Jin. Killing him felt much more final and concluded this chapter of Jin's journey so he can focus on what's next.

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It's like you haven't paid attention to what the game was trying to tell you.
By the end of the game, Jin has realized the samurai way is dead in the water and has no place in war, so even being a samurai means nothing to him now. According to the lead dev, the "canon" ending is letting Shimura live, because in Jin's words, he "has no honor, but won't kill [his] family". The whole point of the game was making Jin realize that being a samurai isn't working anymore, which includes part of their values. Jin has gone through the whole game putting up this valiant resistance exactly because the samurai completely fucked that one job they had. Killing himself out of regard for honor makes no sense (and kind of defeats the point of the entire game) because he DOESN'T WANT to have honor and all that bullshit at the expense of being an effective defender for his country. He doesn't give a shit about the current structures of power, society and politics anymore because he dropped it all the moment he told Shimura he wasn't his son but the Ghost.

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On 27/11/2020 at 0:05 PM, ImMagnetz said:

I killed Lord Shimura. Even if Jin doesn't stick to the samurai code of honour as strongly as he used to, it still has been and always will be the most important thing to his uncle. Anything other than a warrior's death for Shimura would be an insult. Even if Shimura was spared, he'd never renounce his samurai ways so Jin wouldn't be able to have any kind of relationship with him going forward as he's still a traitor in the eyes of the shogun. Shimura would have to live with the knowledge that he'd failed the shogun, failed at making Jin his son and heir, been denied a warrior's death and would have to watch as the shogun continues to hunt Jin. Besides, sparing Shimura felt like too much of a non-ending to me. It's not like we'd get to see how their relationship would develop afterwards, at least not unless we get a sequel at some point, which I assume would have the shogun as the main antagonist, but like I said, Shimura is samurai 'til the end so he would never go up against the shogun with Jin. Killing him felt much more final and concluded this chapter of Jin's journey so he can focus on what's next.

 

Yeap. Plus if Jin spared his uncle the shōgun would have ordered his seppuku ritual for having disgraced himself for failing to execute the Ghost. It is western naïveté to think that Lord Shimura was being spared to live if Jin didn’t do it. He was a doomed man if he lost that fight. The real mercy was giving him death with dignity.  

 

In the end, Jin never fully shedded bushido shoshinshu. If he no longer cared about it all, he would have been no different from Sensei Ishikawa’s former disciple. 

Edited by Eraezr
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This whole idea of Jin "crossing over to the dark side" is my biggest problem with the story. Historically speaking, the way Jin fights simply wouldn't be frowned upon or criticized to the point where even the shōgun wants him dead. Bushidō as we know it today wasn't even a thing in 13th century Japan. In reality, Kamakura period samurai were quite pragmatic and employed all sorts of underhanded tactics to win a battle at all costs, especially when facing a foreign invader. Not to mention, "samurai" and "ninja" were never mutually exclusive entities – samurai were expected to engage in asymmetric warfare occasionally, which would inevitably include some elements of stealth. The idea that "samurai do not use fear to win battles" is quite ridiculous.

 

The good news is, once I accepted that Ghost of Tsushima is about as historically accurate as Rurōni Kenshin, I was able to simply sit back and enjoy the ride.

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Jin + Seppuku = No possibility for Ghost of Tsushima 2

 

Thats it ^^'

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On 07/09/2020 at 7:27 AM, Eraezr said:

The story was all good for me until the ending. With everything that the game showed about 'Bushido Shoshinshu', historical novels and texts which I've read about the times and Japanese culture, I feel like the game would have strongly benefited the choice route of allowing Jin Sakai to commit seppuku, rather than going for the typical western hero ending like 'Fuck u, I'm going to live no matter what', which felt so...I hate to use the word but it felt like Jin got whitewashed with his personality. Samurai of that time...and the way people lived, it was like a world unto itself where they did a lot of heavy stuff (seppuku, executions, hierachies) which would shock us, but to them in their stoic attitude, it was business as usual. They weren't just people who swung swords. They were a class who held worlds within themselves. Who cultivated Wa. If anyone wants to know more about what I'm trying to say here, I recommend the novel (I consider it to be the Dune of Japanese historical fiction), Shōgun by James Clavell. He was an Australian WW2 soldier who was tortured by the Japanese as POW. Years after the war was over, James went to Japan to understand its people and their customs to overcome his hatred for them, along with his demons of trauma.

 

When Lord Shimura was explaining the bigger picture to Jin, the shōgun's order, the cultural and social order implication which the Ghost's existence brought - it made a lot of sense. As justified as Jin's actions was to stop the Mongols, the legend of the Ghost would only continue to do a lot of damage to Japan's way of life. The Ghost was a living weapon, one that was a necessity and very much needed to fight the Mongols off. But now that the war was over, Jin's existence was almost as threatening as the Mongol invasion was. There are a lot of things we take for granted with our modern civilised world, it's formed by sediments and sediments of culture and political order. But in olden times, holding together a functioning society was much different and I was hoping to see the worldbuilding reaching effect of that, of a Tsushima Island before westernisation arrived.

When the game forced me to kill Shimura (I purposely gave up in the first round, hoping SP programmed that alternate ending) and his uncle asked Jin to kill him with honour, I just went, "Oh man, this guy is 10x the samurai Jin is right now."

 

I want to stress that SP really did give us so much of that authentic Japanese feel, more than what many anticipated. Despite the sense that Jin suddenly transformed into a western Ayn Rand protagonist to my cognition. I very much enjoyed the closeness Jin built with the people he met in his conquest against the Mongols. And of course that compassionate part of me that wants any likeable protagonist to live. Yet the part of me that has a stimuli for organic storytelling, wanted the seppuku option.

 

I guess it's kinda funny and ironic to me that I wanted a death ending for Jin, considering all the screams the TLOU fandom made about Joel.

i definitely felt he would have been better suited to die, but i feel he gave away traditional ways for the way of the Ninja/Ghost. I would have liked multiple endings, where you can choose to spare or kill Shimura. Just have different dialogue and cutscenes. Maybe if Jin would choose not to kill Shimura, in the end Shimura would off himself instead. i still feel this game needed a bit more,  not sure what but yeah. 

 

as for the future:

I somewhat expect Jin in Ikishima, or another Ghost game, but at the same time i think they could just kind of use "the ghost" as a gimmick for any playable characters. 

 

Maybe it ends up going sorta like Kratos, goes from Tsushima, to Ikishima, just building a legend so if a series happened, by game 3, wherever yiu end up, people fear Jin via word of mouth, or degrade him by his past choices and loyalty.

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