Dylan-Mehl

Should cheaters have opportunity to gain back access to the leaderboards?

109 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, thefourfoldroot said:

I guess ideally yes - if they can categorically show themselves getting those trophies legitimately on the same account. However, it would involve more work than a site like this can support, or should support given the more important things they could spend that time on.

I think there won't be as many cases like this situation as people think. Whenever a user has > 50 hacked trophies, don't give them the option to re-obtain them because this is obviously just a cheater-cheater and not a one-time-only oopsie. Obviously trophies which are unobtainable (servers offline etc) are out of question.

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1 hour ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

It is hard to proof that you didn't lend out your account to someone else, but that is also the case for every trophy on your profile. Because they can all be earned by someone else.

My point exactly though. You can't. Not unless you stream regularly with a face cam and stream your new trophies, with a face cam. 

 

 But, let's say you could prove it and you stream regularly so you are easily identifiable... You're asking for a lot out of the few CRT to take the time to watch you stream an entire game to prove that you can earn trophies legit that you've been caught cheating. This is a waste of resources especially when there's a simpler, less convoluted solution available to cheaters; starting a new profile altogether.

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1 hour ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

context matters

No it doesn't. 

Cheating is cheating, the rules are the same for everybody.

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11 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

My point exactly though. You can't. Not unless you stream regularly with a face cam and stream your new trophies, with a face cam. 

 

 But, let's say you could prove it and you stream regularly so you are easily identifiable... You're asking for a lot out of the few CRT to take the time to watch you stream an entire game to prove that you can earn trophies legit that you've been caught cheating. This is a waste of resources especially when there's a simpler, less convoluted solution available to cheaters; starting a new profile altogether.

I don't think proving that its you who earned the trophies should be a requirement in the first place. Everybody with an account on this site could ask others to play on their account. The people who wants to re-obtain their cheated trophies should just create a new account with a name provided by one of the Staff members and earn the trophies legit.

And, if proving is a requirement - stream, save your stream and let a moderator skip through the video. I do agree that this asks a lot of the volunteers on this website, but I think that most cheaters are people who have a lot of cheated trophies, or earn unobtainable trophies. This is a one time solution for people who cheated only a few trophies without thinking through the consequentes, and for people who, as an example got weird timestamps on their multiplayer trophies of World at War because they got in a hacked lobby and a hacker gave them every trophy. I think it's a solid solution which would benefit this site a lot. Especially for my last example (World at War) - this happens quit often.

 

And, a new account would be a solid solution if 20% of my trophies were cheated. It's only 5 out of 4800 trophies. (From an LittleBigPLanet 2 expansion which I couldn't buy because I was 12 years old and such. I still think context matters, but ok).

 

10 minutes ago, DarkKillerITA said:

No it doesn't. 

Cheating is cheating, the rules are the same for everybody.

Even in real life, most criminals will get a second chance. Only the serial murders and such won't. Let's say the serial murders are the '> 50 cheated trophies' peeps.

Edited by Dylan-Mehl
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15 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

My point exactly though. You can't. Not unless you stream regularly with a face cam and stream your new trophies, with a face cam. 


People still cheat like this, though. There were a couple people who cheated on stream with speedrunning world records. They only found out because they analyzed it and saw the splice. Even hand movements can be mimicked in the hand cam.

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6 minutes ago, Roronora_Zoro666 said:


People still cheat like this, though. There were a couple people who cheated on stream with speedrunning world records. They only found out because they analyzed it and saw the splice. Even hand movements can be mimicked in the hand cam.

I mean, it would definitly show that you didn't use a save data to earn the trophies.

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15 minutes ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

I don't think proving that its you who earned the trophies should be a requirement in the first place. Everybody with an account on this site could ask others to play on their account. The people who wants to re-obtain their cheated trophies should just create a new account with a name provided by one of the Staff members and earn the trophies legit.

And, if proving is a requirement - stream, save your stream and let a moderator skip through the video. I do agree that this asks a lot of the volunteers on this website, but I think that most cheaters are people who have a lot of cheated trophies, or earn unobtainable trophies. This is a one time solution for people who cheated only a few trophies without thinking through the consequentes, and for people who, as an example got weird timestamps on their multiplayer trophies of World at War because they got in a hacked lobby and a hacker gave them every trophy. I think it's a solid solution which would benefit this site a lot. Especially for my last example (World at War) - this happens quit often.

 

And, a new account would be a solid solution if 20% of my trophies were cheated. It's only 5 out of 4800 trophies. (From an LittleBigPLanet 2 expansion which I couldn't buy because I was 12 years old and such. I still think context matters, but ok).

 

Even in real life, most criminals will get a second chance. Only the serial murders and such won't. Let's say the serial murders are the '> 50 cheated trophies' peeps.

This happens to a TON of people though. We get disputes every other day saying, "hacked in lobby. Not my fault." Other people hide it and move on. It's life. You could go through that forum and find people in your exact same situation.

 

The CRT already spend enough time handling disputes and going through the report queue which is always a mile long. They don't need to be watching streams to try and vetify trophies too.

 

I understand it's only 5 trophies in your case, but it sounds like what you really want here is a free pass. 

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The three games rule was meant for games with hacked MP lobbies or games with glitchy trophies, because as some people have said... shit happens... But using saves should be insta-ban like CFW, that shit doesn't happen without you allowing it...

 

The solution for your problem OP is starting another profile, it sucks that you will lose years of games but you should have done that the moment you realized that you f***** your profile, the more time you wait will be harder...

 

All cheaters that get caught will try to get it legit a second time... Who says how many times are this allowed? How many trophies? That would be so convenient for some people...

 

Climbing in the LB now is useless if you don't play Ratalaika/VN games, lets hope someday the rarity LB gets some attention...

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well to me I met a lot of people who think boosting is cheating and using glitches to get trophies is cheating and so on. I mean for me I think all of them are good and worth doing, same with using guides, as i also met people who think using guides is cheating too.

 

To me i think when it comes to theses things it is fine to use, but hacking and saves and so on is where lines do need to be drawn

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2 hours ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

Hi, so the title as is might be a little bit confusing.

Disclaimer: I don't like cheaters, I don't understand how someone can enjoy playing a game while using cheap save data's and such.


The reason I ask this question is because of a situation regarding myself. Lets explain!
 

Somewhere in 2013 I was 12 years old and was already into trophies. Obviously not as serious as I am now, but I found it very satisfying to do everything in a game and see my progress bar go up by every trophy I earned. Because of my age, I had not all the money in the world and had to use the games which where bought by my parents or my siblings. I was planning to get 100% in LittleBigPlanet 2 but found myself not being able to get my hands on a Ps Vita to complete the Cross Controller Expansion. So one of my siblings found a way to get them without buying it, using a public save data. I didn't know the consequences back then and just let him do it.

So, I got the few (around 6) trophies for this expansion and got flagged when I updated my account here a few years later. It sucks, because I had to hide the whole game, and doing so basicly messes up my whole milestones on this site and I am always marked as 'Hey, this guy has hidden 80 trophies, this might be a cheater'.

Should cheaters have opportunity to gain back access to the leaderboards?
I think for some specific situations you should be able to gain access back while make those flagged trophies public.

My proposal is as following: When a cheater has only a few trophies cheated, let him or her obtain those trophies once again, but obviously now without the cheating aspect. Let them give some proof that they actually did obtain them legitimate. Mark the 'cheated trophies' with a new status, maybe something like 'Once cheated, but with proof legitimate obtained on another profile". Remove the cheaters from the 'First to obtain' and 'Fastest to obtain' leaderboards but let them keep the game in their list. Hell, even distract the score of those trophies from the actually total score, just keep the milestones.

This might be a big oof for the Cheater Removal team, because it's a lot of work to review all those specific situations and the proof given. But I think for situations like this, it would be worth it. It would make my experience on this site so much better because I can actually see my real milestones. I know that it is all my own fault, but I didn't know better. It's not an excuse, the situation just sucks, and I am searching for a way out of it in a way which is acceptable.

I would like to know what any of you think about this.

 

Thanks :').

While I appreciate the sincerity of your post, I think the larger issue is that no matter the reason, cheating puts a cheater on equal footing with someone that legitimately earned a trophy or multiple trophies. 
 

Once you have been caught, your credibility has really been damaged beyond repair. If you look at a few of the flagged posts for cheating the attitude of most people responding to someone proclaiming their innocence is: “you cheated once so obviously you did it again.”

 

I get both sides. I really do, but I don’t believe that extra effort should be made on anyone’s part to have to separate a rehabilitated cheater and an insincere one. Someone made a really good point in this thread. The leaderboard only matters if you give it value. Unfortunately, no one can value a leaderboard consisting of known cheaters with their games intact and those that did all of the right things. 

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Sounds too complicated when what I'm hearing you say is that you actually just want hidden games to still count towards milestones. 

 

I agree. The site should freeze milestones so even if I hide a game, they don't change. If I have hidden games when I sign up and then unhide them, then the milestone can update but not the other way (unhidden -> hidden) around. 

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15 minutes ago, Kittet3 said:

Sounds too complicated when what I'm hearing you say is that you actually just want hidden games to still count towards milestones. 

 

I agree. The site should freeze milestones so even if I hide a game, they don't change. If I have hidden games when I sign up and then unhide them, then the milestone can update but not the other way (unhidden -> hidden) around. 

They don't have to count towards the leaderboards. The cheated trophies shouldn't count to your total score. But the other trophies in the game should, as they are not cheated.

39 minutes ago, VoidVictorious said:

While I appreciate the sincerity of your post, I think the larger issue is that no matter the reason, cheating puts a cheater on equal footing with someone that legitimately earned a trophy or multiple trophies. 
 

Once you have been caught, your credibility has really been damaged beyond repair. If you look at a few of the flagged posts for cheating the attitude of most people responding to someone proclaiming their innocence is: “you cheated once so obviously you did it again.”

 

I get both sides. I really do, but I don’t believe that extra effort should be made on anyone’s part to have to separate a rehabilitated cheater and an insincere one. Someone made a really good point in this thread. The leaderboard only matters if you give it value. Unfortunately, no one can value a leaderboard consisting of known cheaters with their games intact and those that did all of the right things. 

The cheated trophies don't have to count towards your leaderboard overall score. The non cheated trophies on the game needs to be counted, and your milestones don't need to be adjusted.

Edited by Dylan-Mehl
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1 hour ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

 

Even in real life, most criminals will get a second chance. Only the serial murders and such won't. Let's say the serial murders are the '> 50 cheated trophies' peeps.

 

Just to respond to this comment - yes, they get a second chance, but they carry their record with them for the rest of their life.

 

Blue H = second chance 

 

 

 Best solution might be more akin to customizable milestones 

Edited by AJ_-_808
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2 minutes ago, AJ_-_808 said:

 

Just to respond to this comment - yes, they get a second chance, but they carry their record with them for the rest of their life.

 

Blue H = second chance 

Can't argue with that response! I just think in some cases the current system is to harsh and I think there are some opportunities to change this - at least I tried.

Edited by Dylan-Mehl
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7 minutes ago, VoidVictorious said:

I don’t cheat or hack. Perhaps you should take your personal attacks elsewhere?

You have a point, but I don’t believe we should be counting partially legitimately completed games as milestones.

That's why I pointed out that there should be a option to re-obtain those trophies without cheating (on another account etc). There should be some stricts rules regarding this.

 

Maybe this whole 'pardon' should be only for people who fall in the following category:

  • The user has only cheated trophies for one game.
  • The user has not more than 20 trophies cheated.
  • The user has more than 20 platinum trophies (otherwise creating a new account is a better alternative).
Edited by Dylan-Mehl
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1 minute ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

That's why I pointed out that there should be a option to re-obtain those trophies without cheating (on another account etc). There should be some stricts rules regarding this.

 

Maybe this whole 'pardon' should be only for people who fall in the following category:

  • The user has only cheated trophies for one game.
  • The user has not more than 20 trophies cheated.
  • The user has more than 20 platinum trophies (otherwise creating a new account is a better alternative).

I guess it comes down to this: if you were on the cheat removal staff would you rather allow people a second chance by allowing them to remove the game or would you want to have to classify each offense as it comes? Keep in mind the second option involves so much more work for the cheat removal staff. I don’t think those in charge of maintaining the integrity of the leaderboards want to engage in more work than they already do, nor should they in my opinion.

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4 minutes ago, VoidVictorious said:

I guess it comes down to this: if you were on the cheat removal staff would you rather allow people a second chance by allowing them to remove the game or would you want to have to classify each offense as it comes? Keep in mind the second option involves so much more work for the cheat removal staff. I don’t think those in charge of maintaining the integrity of the leaderboards want to engage in more work than they already do, nor should they in my opinion.

Agreed. It causes more work for them, I don't know whats a workaround on that. Probably comes down to if they want to do it, or not. I can't decide that.

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5 minutes ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

That's why I pointed out that there should be a option to re-obtain those trophies without cheating (on another account etc). There should be some stricts rules regarding this.

 

Maybe this whole 'pardon' should be only for people who fall in the following category:

  • The user has only cheated trophies for one game.
  • The user has not more than 20 trophies cheated.
  • The user has more than 20 platinum trophies (otherwise creating a new account is a better alternative).

That is a lot more work than it looks and not worth the time or energy of the people working to ensure the current leaderboards stay clean.  I recommend hanging around the disputes section of the forum to see how much work some disputes actually take to process.  It sucks, but the clean slate approach is the best way to get flags off the profile.

 

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4 hours ago, Dylan-Mehl said:


Should cheaters have opportunity to gain back access to the leaderboards?
I think for some specific situations you should be able to gain access back while make those flagged trophies public.

 

 

 

There's cheaters all over the place, the difference is that some get away with it, because it interests the status quo, the others don't have the same luck and have to abide by rules.

 

Just forget it, play a ton of shitty (oops, sorry fantastic games with stellar reviews) Ratalaika games (and their siblings) you'll be level 40ish in 6 months or so. It's just a money game, or better yet, borrow accounts so they don't sell more, they really don't deserve anyway.

Then you'll have a truly shiny and fantastic rank to brag about that you're a fantastic gamer.

 

These days going up the leaderboards is quick, effortless and meaningless. And brain dead too.

 

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1 minute ago, Jounochi said:

That is a lot more work than it looks and not worth the time or energy of the people working to ensure the current leaderboards stay clean.  I recommend hanging around the disputes section of the forum to see how much work some disputes actually take to process.  It sucks, but the clean slate approach is the best way to get flags off the profile.

 

I know it is a lot of work. But if the 'pardon' is only used in specific cases with the requirements above, it won't be that much extra work. And they can take all the time they want to review it.

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4 minutes ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

I know it is a lot of work. But if the 'pardon' is only used in specific cases with the requirements above, it won't be that much extra work. And they can take all the time they want to review it.

Can you imagine how many cases they have to deal with on a daily basis including false reports? Any additional work is just too much in my opinion for such a small staff.

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2 minutes ago, MattsOnlyHope said:

NO, once a cheater always a cheater.

Sounds like someone hurted you, are you okay my brother?

Edited by Dylan-Mehl
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5 hours ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

 

I think for some specific situations you should be able to gain access back while make those flagged trophies public.

 

 

It's funny how those specific situations in which one should be redeemed, coincidentally fit yours...

 

Just as the next person would have his specific redeeming factors fit his... and so on

 

And in that optic, every request would have to be analyzed because, and let's be honest heee, you f***ed up, not the system.

 

Now i get it, you were a kid, you didn't know better, yata yata... and you learned that now. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and the 3 strike one is already pretty generous imo.

 

So without sounding condescending, take it in the teeth and accept it as it is or make a new profile, and call this experience paid dues.

 

End of the day, fewer people care than you may think...

 

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