PS4 modded lobbies in the future.

[Sergen]

I think inevitably there will be modded lobbies for PS4 games where people can use a mod menu on the game to auto unlock people's trophies from within the lobby. My question here is: will the flag stick for any member of the website who finds themselves in this predicament? The reason I ask is because on PS4 whenever you earn a trophy while signed into PSN it will sync to your PSN account immediately and there's no opportunity for you to erase the trophy from your profile after it has synced. I am curious if flagging for modded lobbies on PS4 will be the same as PS3. On PS3 people are told to take measures to prevent the trophies showing up on their profile such as signing out of PSN and deleting the user from their console, but on PS4 that can't be done at all. I feel like on PS4 the rules should be different in this case because you'd be basically banning people from playing a game on their account if modded lobbies became common there and this website shouldn't dictate people's choice to play a game on their main account.

[Taihou]

At this point, I seriously doubt the rules will change. The excuse of people will take advantage of it will come into effect and affect the "quality of the leaderboards" so the limit of hidden games will probably just go to 5

[Sergen]

5 minutes ago, Madara Uchiha said:

At this point, I seriously doubt the rules will change. The excuse of people will take advantage of it will come into effect and affect the "quality of the leaderboards" so the limit of hidden games will probably just go to 5

 

The rule can exclude PS4 modded lobby games from being flaggable or the white list that 90% of the members have wanted for 4 years can finally come into effect whenever PS4 modded lobbies become more prevalent.

[Taihou]

1 minute ago, Sergen said:

 

The rule can exclude PS4 modded lobby games from being flaggable or the white list that 90% of the members have wanted for 4 years can finally come into effect whenever PS4 modded lobbies become more prevalent.

The bullshit argument of "the leaderboards will be affected" from some of the members will again be more important than the whitelist feature. I would love the whitelist feature. It needs to come into affect because there are more than 3 games where you can get hacked but again it's been 4 years, there is no rush plus even blindmango said Sly isn't interested in it. Another issue is that there are few members here that believe the 3 things in life are Death, Taxes and Deleting your profile when trophies start popping. 

[Golem25]

While I agree that this will become a relevant discussion in the very near future (perhaps sooner than we might think even) and that some form of clemency for affected players should be considered, I'm afraid that the same arguments against whitelisting on PS3 will hold up when applied to the PS4.

Really, the only difference is, effectively, the fact that on PS3 you have a single countermeasure (backing up saves and nuking your profile before a sync happens). While I do wish things were different, that one escape not existing on PS4 doesn't change enough to actively accept auto-popped Trophies from modded lobbies on the leaderboard. And the leaderboards are the crux of the argument; the site dictates diddly squat (besides timestamping and excessive shitposting - fml), but for participation in the rankings, your profile needs to be clean. At that point, players need to ask themselves whether they value relatively arbitrary numbers over playing a certain game online on their main profile.

 

Again, I can't stress it enough - I wish things were different! That folks could just play whatever they want on whichever account they want without having to fear becoming the latest victim of a BLOPS-style modder. But there is no gun being held to your head - it's purely about voluntary participation in a fun leaderboard that gets its legitimacy from the fact that everyone on it is clean(ish - YMMV regarding exploits, team accounts, Trophy buying, and so on). Because of this, as well as the fact that the change in platform from PS3 to PS4 does not fundamentally change the dynamic, I don't think we will see a change in discourse on the flagging of modded-lobby-induced Trophies or in the site's policy.

 

A pity, because I find myself somewhat in favour of whitelisting, but the arguments against it are clear, concise, and reasonable - and would apply to the PS4 just as much as to the PS3, thus not bringing on the paradigm shift many are hoping for. Still glad Sergen brought this up, because it's a debate worth thinking about.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Golem25

[Taihou]

1 minute ago, Golem25 said:

 But there is no gun being held to your head - it's purely about voluntary participation in a fun leaderboard that gets its legitimacy from the fact that everyone on it is clean(ish - YMMV regarding exploits, team accounts, Trophy buying, and so on). Because of this, as well as the fact that the change in platform from PS3 to PS4 does not fundamentally change the dynamic, I don't think we will see a change in discourse on the flagging of modded-lobby-induced Trophies or in the site's policy.

 

A pity, because I find myself somewhat in favour of whitelisting, but the arguments against it are clear, concise, and reasonable - and would apply to the PS4 just as much as to the PS3, thus not bringing on the paradigm shift many are hoping for. Still glad Sergen brought this up, because it's a debate worth thinking about.

I don't think it's the numbers that comes into it, it's the stigma from some of the members here that say "all profiles with hidden trophies are cheaters" "accounts with hidden trophies shouldn't be on the leaderboards"...those are things that are posted here. No one wants to be labled a cheater for something they didn't do so in some ways yes you are dictated to what you play. I'm not saying that going to those extremes is right and people should have more tolerance towards that stuff (I for one don't give a shit) but hidden trophies seemed to be used against people in arguments, once the stigma goes then we can talk about removing the want for the whitelist

[DaivRules]

If that were to happen, I think we'd start up a thread of confirmed games with modded lobbies for PS3/4/5/V and which specific trophies can be affected in which way. If that list grows long enough, then it would be a concern and the whitelist idea would have to be considered more seriously.

 

 

[Golem25]

3 minutes ago, Madara Uchiha said:

I don't think it's the numbers that comes into it, it's the stigma from some of the members here that say "all profiles with hidden trophies are cheaters" "accounts with hidden trophies shouldn't be on the leaderboards"...those are things that are posted here. No one wants to be labled a cheater for something they didn't do so in some ways yes you are dictated to what you play. I'm not saying that going to those extremes is right and people should have more tolerance towards that stuff (I for one don't give a shit) but hidden trophies seemed to be used against people in arguments, once the stigma goes then we can talk about removing the want for the whitelist

I apreciate the sentiment, but I don't think anyone or anything - let alone leaderboard policy - should be influenced by regular members possibly being prejudiced.

 

I regularly see folk with anywhere between 3 and 50 Trophies hidden and I think to myself 'Ah shit, it's BLOPS' - I don't get suspicious unless it's two or more full games worth of hidden Trophies and even then I try and remember that every case is unique and that some simply prefer to hide their incomplete stuff. Of course, large numbers of hidden Trophies should be called out in disputes and that is coincidentally the only place where I regularly see people bring them up. If there are actual members out there who have such a zero tolerance policy against hiding, then I would dare suggest they are the ones with the problem, not those folk who either had their day ruined by a modder or are trying to polish their completion rate..

[DaivRules]

29 minutes ago, Golem25 said:

but the arguments against it are clear, concise, and reasonable

 

Maybe I missed the clear and concise arguments against a whitelist, can you compile them and paste them in this thread since they're relevant to the discussion?

[Taihou]

15 minutes ago, Golem25 said:

I apreciate the sentiment, but I don't think anyone or anything - let alone leaderboard policy - should be influenced by regular members possibly being prejudiced.

 

I regularly see folk with anywhere between 3 and 50 Trophies hidden and I think to myself 'Ah shit, it's BLOPS' - I don't get suspicious unless it's two or more full games worth of hidden Trophies and even then I try and remember that every case is unique and that some simply prefer to hide their incomplete stuff. Of course, large numbers of hidden Trophies should be called out in disputes and that is coincidentally the only place where I regularly see people bring them up. If there are actual members out there who have such a zero tolerance policy against hiding, then I would dare suggest they are the ones with the problem, not those folk who either had their day ruined by a modder or are trying to polish their completion rate..

The thing is there really is no leaderboard policy. The leaderboards aren't even a true representation of right now tbh because Ikemenzi hasn't been updated in over a month..There are team accounts (even though they might be legal let's be honest they shouldn't be because "impossible timestamps"), bought trophies, modded trophies. 

 

Prejudice should not dictate the leaderboards but some how the minority in the original whitelist thread that didn't want it implemented won because someone didn't want to implement it. Even though the whole plan was worked out and written write there it still wouldn't be done. At this point so many other things dictate the leaderboards so why not just add it to the mix won't hurt. I'm pretty sure (I can't remember fully) people mentioned in the original whitelist thread their thoughts on hidden trophies. Even if it isn't out in the open there is a stigma on this site that hidden = cheated and you cannot deny that

 

 

[sporty_chin8]

This exact topic was discussed in one of the bo2 threads that got closed. People keep passively ignoring this concern like it won’t ever happen and i am just waiting for the day that it does.

 

The site will have no choice but to white list certain games or just let it go unflagged. Hell, nothing changed even when people voted for the whitelist feature. Its a dumb rule imo, it is not common knowledge to just delete the user on ps3 and its impossible to do that on ps4.

 

Idk about ps5 because it isn't out yet but hackers are going to go online for ps4 eventually and when they do, there will be even more outcry for it. I will just leave the site and forget about the leaderboards if it happens to me. Im not going to sit here and be blamed for something i didn't do. I have never hacked anything.

[AJ_Radio]

This will become more of a thing once the PS5 really starts to get it's fanbase which won't happen until around next year or the year after.

 

Somebody just hire @Sergen to be part of the Cheater Removal Team. It's obvious he's more intelligent and makes clear concise posts than the majority of us could.

[HaserPL]

1 hour ago, Madara Uchiha said:

No one wants to be labled a cheater for something they didn't do

If you're a grown-up you don't fucking care about what others think of you.

[DaivRules]

52 minutes ago, Madara Uchiha said:

The thing is there really is no leaderboard policy.

 

To be factual, there is an actual leaderboard policy. Everything you posted after that is just your vision of a leaderboard. This site has specific leaderboard rules and the ones that can be enforced are, which is why the topic of this thread was started.

 

49 minutes ago, sporty_chin8 said:

The site will have no choice but to white list certain games or just let it go unflagged.

 

Or another choice of the status quo. While it will be unpopular with quite a few members on the site, no one has leverage to force anyone ("the site") into a binary decision, so things don't actually have to change.

 

12 minutes ago, xxI_AM_MACHINExx said:

Currently the only way to mod PS4 trophies is using a PS4  Dev/TestKit which allows you to unlock, timestamp and sync trophies to PSN or resigning saves.

 

That's not accurate, but we're not going to discuss the methods of modding trophies on the site.

[starcrunch061]

If we don't whitelist it here (and I'm of mixed opinion on that, honestly), I would at least like a running thread telling us about games with modded lobbies. I've thankfully never been caught in one, but it probably sucks pretty bad for those who are.

 

It won't solve all the issues, but it's a start.

[sporty_chin8]

17 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

Or another choice of the status quo. While it will be unpopular with quite a few members on the site, no one has leverage to force anyone ("the site") into a binary decision, so things don't actually have to change.

So when this happens, the site is going to start treating ps4 games how they treat bo2 and gta 5 and tell people not to play them online, and the difference is even worse now. Where they say “don’t play them with your main, use an alt” or “delete the user if trophies auto pop via hackers before syncing” for bo2 and gta 5, it will turn into a “don't play them at all” for any ps4 game known to have modded lobbies. I refuse be apart of a website that tells me what I can and can’t play so I completely disagree. Something will change or people will leave. Idk how many others but i can guarantee I will. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by sporty_chin8

[AJ_-_808]

I dont know how many would straight up leave, because the site has other useful features, but I can definitely see the leaderboards becoming less and less relevant.

[NathanielJohn]

If this issue isn't dealt with before PS4 mod menus become a thing, then PSNP will be basically telling people that if you want to be on the leaderboard here, you are not allowed to play <insert list of games with mod menus>.

 

Want to move up in the rankings, or don't like someone who is ranked higher than you? Easy solution: set up a gaming session with them via an alt account and pop their trophies, thus getting them removed from the leaderboards!

[Sergen]

3 minutes ago, xxI_AM_MACHINExx said:

At the end of the day Leaderboards are pointless because of modders, trophy buyers, team accounts, boosting, having a friend play for you, etc. Its all forms of cheating IMO. Also with all the easy games it makes your rank even more useless.

 

I think most people probably don't care about their rank on the leaderboard, they just care that not having a rank on the leaderboard will make people believe that you are a cheater when they look at your profile and the ranks are missing. 

[ZermenoBoy]

Asking or help to a friend to pop a trophy for you is not cheating in my opinion. Back in the days on the previous generations of consoles like SEGA GENESIS or the Super SNES, you played a difficult game and there was always that one stage where you could just never get over. You spent hours reaching a certain stage and you just couldnt get over the hump. You ask your brother to help you with that stage because for some reason he passed the stage with much ease. Afterwards youd resume your playthrough.

Was this cheating? I  lots of times asked my older brother for help on certain games in the past because he was just that good. Not cheating in my opinion.

[B1rvine]

11 hours ago, Madara Uchiha said:

The leaderboards aren't even a true representation of right now tbh because Ikemenzi hasn't been updated in over a month.

Sony’s API has issues with accounts over 7500 games. It’s not an easy fix.

 

11 hours ago, xxI_AM_MACHINExx said:

They really should have someone who actually mods trophies because they would know more than anyone...existing methods, what to look for, etc.

We absolutely should not have a cheater in the CRT. They can’t be impartial. For example, hypothetically, if a modder fixed someone’s timestamps and they happen to be reported, they can’t be impartial because they were involved in the original cheating, etc. For the most part we already know what to look for, our biggest issue is time. 
 

11 hours ago, Spaz said:

Somebody just hire @Sergen to be part of the Cheater Removal Team.

 

The majority of the CRT don’t want Sergen. It was a 4-1 vote. 

 

12 hours ago, Golem25 said:

While I agree that this will become a relevant discussion in the very near future (perhaps sooner than we might think even) and that some form of clemency for affected players should be considered.

Ive always been in favor of a whitelist, but that’s partly why we have a three strike policy. If there’s an official whitelist, I’d personally want LB removal to be a single strike.
 

IMO, there’s so many things broken with the leaderboard, and policies that help cheaters, that we almost need to change things altogether. However, it’s hard to make a completely pure LB, that’s effective, without upsetting people used to the status quo.

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by B1rvine

[JoniP]

6 hours ago, B1rvine said:

We absolutely should not have a cheater in the CRT. They can’t be impartial. For example, hypothetically, if a modder fixed someone’s timestamps and they happen to be reported, they can’t be impartial because they were involved in the original cheating, etc. For the most part we already know what to look for, our biggest issue is time.

Old poachers are the best gamekeepers.

[Geridian]

19 hours ago, DaivRules said:

If that were to happen, I think we'd start up a thread of confirmed games with modded lobbies for PS3/4/5/V and which specific trophies can be affected in which way.

Best sentences I have read from a moderator on PSNP since some weeks.

Especially since modded lobbies and people getting flags because of such modded lobbies, are already real when you watch the dispute sub board.

1. Somebody, with a good overview regarding modded lobbies, should start a topic on the PSN sub board where all games with modded lobbies are listed.

2. Then this topic should be linked in the dispute sub board and in every sub board of a game, where a modded lobby can be found. 

3. Maybe provide "first fix" and "How to prevent getting flagged because of modded lobbies" in those topics. Or link to existing topics.

 

Now all moderators have the time to prepare for the worst case. When it is too late, then all those things have to be prepared asap and only add more workload.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Geridian
Info

[Flipendo52]

19 hours ago, Golem25 said:

While I agree that this will become a relevant discussion in the very near future (perhaps sooner than we might think even) and that some form of clemency for affected players should be considered, I'm afraid that the same arguments against whitelisting on PS3 will hold up when applied to the PS4.

Really, the only difference is, effectively, the fact that on PS3 you have a single countermeasure (backing up saves and nuking your profile before a sync happens). While I do wish things were different, that one escape not existing on PS4 doesn't change enough to actively accept auto-popped Trophies from modded lobbies on the leaderboard. And the leaderboards are the crux of the argument; the site dictates diddly squat (besides timestamping and excessive shitposting - fml), but for participation in the rankings, your profile needs to be clean. At that point, players need to ask themselves whether they value relatively arbitrary numbers over playing a certain game online on their main profile.

 

Again, I can't stress it enough - I wish things were different! That folks could just play whatever they want on whichever account they want without having to fear becoming the latest victim of a BLOPS-style modder. But there is no gun being held to your head - it's purely about voluntary participation in a fun leaderboard that gets its legitimacy from the fact that everyone on it is clean(ish - YMMV regarding exploits, team accounts, Trophy buying, and so on). Because of this, as well as the fact that the change in platform from PS3 to PS4 does not fundamentally change the dynamic, I don't think we will see a change in discourse on the flagging of modded-lobby-induced Trophies or in the site's policy.

 

A pity, because I find myself somewhat in favour of whitelisting, but the arguments against it are clear, concise, and reasonable - and would apply to the PS4 just as much as to the PS3, thus not bringing on the paradigm shift many are hoping for. Still glad Sergen brought this up, because it's a debate worth thinking about.

If leaderboard exceptions can be made for exploits, team accounts, trophy buying, then why can't the site just maintain a whitelist of known modded lobby games that multiple users have confirmed autopops trophies? I don't see how this will affect the integrity of the leaderboard any more than trophy buying for example. The way the rules are now, modded lobbies could just pop up on a popular game, someone gets hit with a flagged autopop trophy, and then they have no recourse? It is ridiculous in my opinion.

[Sergen]

9 hours ago, B1rvine said:

The majority of the CRT don’t want Sergen. It was a 4-1 vote.

 

It wasn't something I really wanted, I simply got approached by a member who regularly viewed dispute threads and saw my contributions and thought that I would be a worthy addition to the team, similarly to how Spaz has mentioned me. But overall I think not being involved in the cheater removal team was better for me, I know you try to do what you believe is right and that also impacts people's opinion of you as a person. I think I dodged unnecessary hate from not being accepted onto the team, you may not want me but I don't want you either, a few staff members of this site have retired recently and I hate the idea of helping someone else improve a product that they earn money from when I am working for free to improve it for them.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Sergen