[SPOILER!] Why Joel's story makes perfect sense

[Cloudbahamut]

2 hours ago, StressEater said:

 

I felt the same way. For me, I feel that introducing Abby into the story the way that they did was terrible. It completely diminishes her story. The entire time I played as Abby, I felt rushed and eager to get it over with. I just wanted to get back to Ellie. Even while playing Abby in the theater/ auditorium, I purposely let Ellie kill me so the game could be done and I could switch back to Ellie.

 

I just feel that it was poorly put together. maybe it would have been best to play as Abby for the beginning of the game. The whole first half could have been her back story. Joel's death would have been the start of the second half. Then you chase down your revenge and it all ends badly.

 

Its like they were trying so hard to make the second game as good as the first one. So they decided to go with the whole "shock and awe" gimmick. The best idea they could come up with was to just kill everyone. I get that it is supposed to be the end of the world and such, but it was just so tasteless. The whole Abby story line was extremely anticlimactic. You would meet her friends knowing that they were just going to die soon. So in turn, you took no effort to pay any attention to any of them. I can't even tell you the name of one of her friends. I knew they were not going to be around long enough to even bother remembering them.

I strongly disagree.

For me meeting Abbys friends after I killed them as Ellie was what made it so special. I thought it was so brilliant to introduce them as seemingly ruthless villains that you hate and want to kill (I seriously enjoyed what Ellie did to Nora because it mirrored Joel's death so much. At the time this felt like true justice to me) but afterwards you learn the story behind these characters and suddenly they have humanity and their own struggles and emotions and everything. And especially because I knew they would die later on the way they did it made the story all the more emotional and tragic for me.

It's the same concept as with origin stories. You already know how it will end but that's not the point. It's about the journey not the destination. Like what I said about the dogs Bear and Alice. When playing as Ellie you don't give a fuck about them and kill them because they are just some bloodthirsty beasts trying to maul you. But when playing as Abby suddenly these are loyal companions and you learn to love them until you realize that those are the dogs you killed so ruthlessly earlier. It's tragic and it really emphasizes the message of the game: That everyone is both hero and villain in this story and it just depends on the point of view. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Everyone deserves their revenge and everyone deserves to die.

It would have been so generic and boring if we would have seen everything in chronological order. if the game would have started by making Abby sympathetic and part of you would actually sympathize with her when she kills Joel then you wouldn't root as much for Ellie during her journey and it would diminish the sympathies towards Joel and lessened the mourning for him. By showing you one side first and then the other (and not showing you both from the start) the game is much more emotional, tragic and delivers the message much better that those who you hate and deem as the villains are the heroes of their own story in which you are the villain.

I love stories like that. Where you first see it one way and then it's flipped on it's head and you suddenly see this whole other side to it that you never saw before and it changes the whole perception of it.

The Walking Dead did this as well with the character of Negan. When he is introduced Negan just seems to be a sadistic, ruthless killer who brutally kills one of the beloved main characters and everyone just thinks of him as evil and wants him to die the most painful death. But then when they released the "Here's Negan" book and you see his story, you realize that he is simply a tragic character who lost everything and turned into this ruthless dictator and enforcer to keep his own people alive and safe. That he is really exactly like the main protagonist Rick. You know there is a scene where Ricks people kill Negans people in their sleep and yet the audience did not feel bad about that because Rick is the hero and the Saviors (Negans people) are the bad guys and have to die to ensure the survival of Rick and his people. But these were actually innocent people and the hero just slaughtered them in their sleep. So from Negans point of view Rick really is the villain who came into his lands and killed his people. And later you realize that Negan is really only doing for his people what Rick is doing for his. They are almost the same, just on opposing sides. But you hate Negan because he kills some of the main characters.

There is this great speech Negan has in the comics where he says:

"What did I do that was so bad ? Keeping damn near 70 people alive despite the end of the fucking world ? Am I being punished for the things I did to make that happen ? Are you saying you haven't done anything you regretted to keep your people alive ? Nothing that would, from an outside perspective, make you look like an evil piece of shit ?"

And that really is the point. That's where you understand that you only hated Negan and saw him as the villain because he killed and hurt the characters you care about but that he wasn't actually the bad guy. In his story he was the good guy that protects his people from you after you killed them in their sleep. But if they had shown you Negans story from the beginning and you would have sympathized with him from the start then it would have never had this emotional and tragic impact. You need to hate him and see him as evil before you see his side of the story and realize that the enemies really are only the bad guys in your story.

And that's what TLOU 2 did here. It would have never been as powerful and effective if you didn't hate Abby in the beginning and saw her as the plain bad guy. Killing her friends needed to feel righteous and justified before you get to know them. I didn't really care about who they were either when playing as Ellie. You are not supposed to. They are the guys who killed Joel, that's all you need. But when playing as Abby and especially because I knew they were going to die later on, I became more invested in their story. I still feel they deserved to die and it never made me regret killing them as Ellie because I loved Joel and I don't care what fucked up things he did. He did them to survive or to protect his surrogate daughter. If that had been me I would have done the same. And loving Joel and knowing that he was a good man who lost too much already I needed these people to die. I needed that justice for myself. But when playing as Abby I became invested in these characters as well and I wanted to know what their story was and who they had been as people despite knowing they had and deserved to die. Especially when they showed no regret over killing Joel. But because I knew they would die and that Ellie would kill them, that made it all the more tragic and emotional for me. A straight up revenge story where we sympathize with them first and then have to kill them with Ellie would have been much more uncomfortable and sickening. But from staying entirely in Ellies POV first and only switching to Abby after Ellie did her worst makes you fully root for Ellie and then understanding for Abby. That would have never worked the other way around because then you would have never rooted for Ellie to succeed and that discovery of Abbys side wouldn't have changed your perception so significantly as it did.

And that's why the ending (that everyone hates so much it seems) works perfectly for me. Without Abbys side of things Ellie sparing her would have been an anticlimactic letdown. But because I knew Abbys side at that point and seen how much she had been violated and fucked up by the end she earned her redemption and being spared by Ellie. Abby and Lev had become Joel and Ellie at that point and killing Abby at that point would have felt as wrong as Ellie dying at the end of the first game to me. The others that Ellie killed earned their fates because they never really changed. They were still the same people that tortured and murdered Joel. But Abby wasn't. Not by the end of the game. She didn't even want to fight Ellie anymore despite saying after the Theater battle that she would kill her next time she saw her. Ellie taking out all her pain on Abby by beating her, slashing her and almost drowning her and thus finally victimizing her was enough revenge for me. Unleashing that pain on Abby was the true purpose of Ellies quest and as long as she didn't get to do that she couldn't let go and move on. It was about making her suffer and victimizing her not about killing her. Killing her would have been a mercy. Because Death is easy. Pain is hard. Abby earned that pain but she also earned to live and a chance to redeem herself.

So yeah I understand that most people just wanted another Part 1 with Ellie and Joel together killing all the bad guys and getting a happy end. or a straight revenge story where Ellie just kills Abby and the others for killing Joel and all the bad guys just being simple, uncomplicated bad guys that you don't have to feel sorry for.

But apart from the fact that Joel had to die (I indeed much rather would have had him doing this journey with Ellie together) I really am happy exactly with the way this story is structured and told because this story couldn't and shouldn't have been told any other way or it never would have worked and you just would have ended up never really rooting or understanding anybody and I wouldn't have been able to relate to anybody.

When Abbys side of the story was done, I still did not regret what happened to her people but I definitely knew who they were (Owen, Mel, Manny, Nora) and what their story was.

Also TLOU 2 is also brilliant in the way that if you replay the game after beating it once, you experience the Ellie part in a completely new and different way. I love when stories do that, changing your whole perspective of it the 2nd time around.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Cloudbahamut

[StressEater]

1 hour ago, Cloudbahamut said:

I strongly disagree.

For me meeting Abbys friends after I killed them as Ellie was what made it so special. I thought it was so brilliant to introduce them as seemingly ruthless villains that you hate and want to kill (I seriously enjoyed what Ellie did to Nora because it mirrored Joel's death so much. At the time this felt like true justice to me) but afterwards you learn the story behind these characters and suddenly they have humanity and their own struggles and emotions and everything. And especially because I knew they would die later on the way they did it made the story all the more emotional and tragic for me.

It's the same concept as with origin stories. You already know how it will end but that's not the point. It's about the journey not the destination. Like what I said about the dogs Bear and Alice. When playing as Ellie you don't give a fuck about them and kill them because they are just some bloodthirsty beasts trying to maul you. But when playing as Abby suddenly these are loyal companions and you learn to love them until you realize that those are the dogs you killed so ruthlessly earlier. It's tragic and it really emphasizes the message of the game: That everyone is both hero and villain in this story and it just depends on the point of view. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Everyone deserves their revenge and everyone deserves to die.

It would have been so generic and boring if we would have seen everything in chronological order. if the game would have started by making Abby sympathetic and part of you would actually sympathize with her when she kills Joel then you wouldn't root as much for Ellie during her journey and it would diminish the sympathies towards Joel and lessened the mourning for him. By showing you one side first and then the other (and not showing you both from the start) the game is much more emotional, tragic and delivers the message much better that those who you hate and deem as the villains are the heroes of their own story in which you are the villain.

I love stories like that. Where you first see it one way and then it's flipped on it's head and you suddenly see this whole other side to it that you never saw before and it changes the whole perception of it.

The Walking Dead did this as well with the character of Negan. When he is introduced Negan just seems to be a sadistic, ruthless killer who brutally kills one of the beloved main characters and everyone just thinks of him as evil and wants him to die the most painful death. But then when they released the "Here's Negan" book and you see his story, you realize that he is simply a tragic character who lost everything and turned into this ruthless dictator and enforcer to keep his own people alive and safe. That he is really exactly like the main protagonist Rick. You know there is a scene where Ricks people kill Negans people in their sleep and yet the audience did not feel bad about that because Rick is the hero and the Saviors (Negans people) are the bad guys and have to die to ensure the survival of Rick and his people. But these were actually innocent people and the hero just slaughtered them in their sleep. So from Negans point of view Rick really is the villain who came into his lands and killed his people. And later you realize that Negan is really only doing for his people what Rick is doing for his. They are almost the same, just on opposing sides. But you hate Negan because he kills some of the main characters.

There is this great speech Negan has in the comics where he says:

"What did I do that was so bad ? Keeping damn near 70 people alive despite the end of the fucking world ? Am I being punished for the things I did to make that happen ? Are you saying you haven't done anything you regretted to keep your people alive ? Nothing that would, from an outside perspective, make you look like an evil piece of shit ?"

And that really is the point. That's where you understand that you only hated Negan and saw him as the villain because he killed and hurt the characters you care about but that he wasn't actually the bad guy. In his story he was the good guy that protects his people from you after you killed them in their sleep. But if they had shown you Negans story from the beginning and you would have sympathized with him from the start then it would have never had this emotional and tragic impact. You need to hate him and see him as evil before you see his side of the story and realize that the enemies really are only the bad guys in your story.

And that's what TLOU 2 did here. It would have never been as powerful and effective if you didn't hate Abby in the beginning and saw her as the plain bad guy. Killing her friends needed to feel righteous and justified before you get to know them. I didn't really care about who they were either when playing as Ellie. You are not supposed to. They are the guys who killed Joel, that's all you need. But when playing as Abby and especially because I knew they were going to die later on, I became more invested in their story. I still feel they deserved to die and it never made me regret killing them as Ellie because I loved Joel and I don't care what fucked up things he did. He did them to survive or to protect his surrogate daughter. If that had been me I would have done the same. And loving Joel and knowing that he was a good man who lost too much already I needed these people to die. I needed that justice for myself. But when playing as Abby I became invested in these characters as well and I wanted to know what their story was and who they had been as people despite knowing they had and deserved to die. Especially when they showed no regret over killing Joel. But because I knew they would die and that Ellie would kill them, that made it all the more tragic and emotional for me. A straight up revenge story where we sympathize with them first and then have to kill them with Ellie would have been much more uncomfortable and sickening. But from staying entirely in Ellies POV first and only switching to Abby after Ellie did her worst makes you fully root for Ellie and then understanding for Abby. That would have never worked the other way around because then you would have never rooted for Ellie to succeed and that discovery of Abbys side wouldn't have changed your perception so significantly as it did.

And that's why the ending (that everyone hates so much it seems) works perfectly for me. Without Abbys side of things Ellie sparing her would have been an anticlimactic letdown. But because I knew Abbys side at that point and seen how much she had been violated and fucked up by the end she earned her redemption and being spared by Ellie. Abby and Lev had become Joel and Ellie at that point and killing Abby at that point would have felt as wrong as Ellie dying at the end of the first game to me. The others that Ellie killed earned their fates because they never really changed. They were still the same people that tortured and murdered Joel. But Abby wasn't. Not by the end of the game. She didn't even want to fight Ellie anymore despite saying after the Theater battle that she would kill her next time she saw her. Ellie taking out all her pain on Abby by beating her, slashing her and almost drowning her and thus finally victimizing her was enough revenge for me. Unleashing that pain on Abby was the true purpose of Ellies quest and as long as she didn't get to do that she couldn't let go and move on. It was about making her suffer and victimizing her not about killing her. Killing her would have been a mercy. Because Death is easy. Pain is hard. Abby earned that pain but she also earned to live and a chance to redeem herself.

So yeah I understand that most people just wanted another Part 1 with Ellie and Joel together killing all the bad guys and getting a happy end. or a straight revenge story where Ellie just kills Abby and the others for killing Joel and all the bad guys just being simple, uncomplicated bad guys that you don't have to feel sorry for.

But apart from the fact that Joel had to die (I indeed much rather would have had him doing this journey with Ellie together) I really am happy exactly with the way this story is structured and told because this story couldn't and shouldn't have been told any other way or it never would have worked and you just would have ended up never really rooting or understanding anybody and I wouldn't have been able to relate to anybody.

When Abbys side of the story was done, I still did not regret what happened to her people but I definitely knew who they were (Owen, Mel, Manny, Nora) and what their story was.

Also TLOU 2 is also brilliant in the way that if you replay the game after beating it once, you experience the Ellie part in a completely new and different way. I love when stories do that, changing your whole perspective of it the 2nd time around.

 

Whoa buddy, that was a little bit long. I actually see where you are coming from and I get what you mean. I just felt like I could have attached to Abby a lot better by not knowing that she was going to or had kill Joel depending on the time of play. I understand what you are saying, I have another play through to finish for the platinum. I will try to keep your point of view in mind when I get to the part with Abby. Maybe it will give me a different perceptive. Thank you.

 

I almost forgot about the Negan quote. It's been awhile since I heard it. It is so true in this scenario.