Build Help!

[SnowyWhiteFox777]

I can't decide between the Knight or the Warrior class.

My build will mostly be for player vs player after I beat the story.

Magic is not really my style, so naturally I would go with the class that has less stats in attunement, intelligence and faith, but I'm considering getting the flame sword spell. I need Att 10 / Int 10 / Fth 10 for it. So the knight class would probably be better for it, but is the flame sword spell really worth it for my future Dex build?

 

(Base Stats of these two classes)

Knight:   LV 9 / Vgr 12 / Att 10 / End 11 / Vit 15 / Str 13 / Dex 12 / Int 9 / Fth 9 / Luck 7

Warrior: LV 7 / Vgr 14 / Att  6  / End 12 / Vit 11 / Str 16 /  Dex 9  / Int 8 / Fth 9 / Luck 11

 

 

 

 

 

[MilanYildirim]

I'd go for Knight because of vita and dexterity.
It doesn't matter much after you progress like an hour anyway just make your damn choice and start, there're lots of people who want to start it but can't

[Eylside]

you probably talk about this one right? http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Carthus+Flame+Arc

there is no information on how the spell works and scales so its pretty hard to say if it is worth it or not.

[MMDE]

Unless you are interested in Luck... then Knight or Pyromancy is the only way to go IMO!

 

Luck is supposed to determine item drop chance, but I don't know how this works yet. It also increases Bleed and Poison resistance, which may or may not be particularly useful. If you can live without luck, you can spend the points elsewhere on more useful stuff. Knight and Pyromancy starts with the least luck, so that may be the way to go to get the least amount wasted on luck. Knight has however one point spent on int more than Warrior, but Knight has 2 less points on luck...

 

Really, this is the way you got to think about picking starter class. It determines nothing else about your character.

Edited March 26, 2016 by MMDE

[SnowyWhiteFox777]

you probably talk about this one right? http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Carthus+Flame+Arc

there is no information on how the spell works and scales so its pretty hard to say if it is worth it or not.

Yup.

How did it scale in past games? Maybe it's not so different.

I checked the website and it doesn't say. http://darksouls2.wiki.fextralife.com/Flame+Weapon

[SnowyWhiteFox777]

I'd go for Knight because of vita and dexterity.

It doesn't matter much after you progress like an hour anyway just make your damn choice and start, there're lots of people who want to start it but can't

I never said I had the game, I just wanted to make sure to know what to pick when I start. I'm in the same boat as you, and sadly it's called April 12.

I can't wait for the game that I need to imagine myself playing by choosing my class. lol

Unless you are interested in Luck... then Knight or Pyromancy is the only way to go IMO!

 

Luck is supposed to determine item drop chance, but I don't know how this works yet. It also increases Bleed and Poison resistance, which may or may not be particularly useful. If you can live without luck, you can spend the points elsewhere on more useful stuff. Knight and Pyromancy starts with the least luck, so that may be the way to go to get the least amount wasted on luck. Knight has however one point spent on int more than Warrior, but Knight has 2 less points on luck...

 

Really, this is the way you got to think about picking starter class. It determines nothing else about your character.

I think I will chose Warrior, because it has 4 points less in attunement and is 2 levels bellow the Knight. So basically, if I don't use magic, I will save 5 points to use somewhere else. Also, the luck might be useful against poison weapons in pvp.

Edited March 27, 2016 by SnowyWhiteFox777

[Paige-ID]

This information goes by the fact that it's the same as every previous Souls/Bloodborne game.

 

Your starting class absolutely has no effect on your end game. You only pick starting class based on starting equipment or perhaps the ease of obtaining a spell right away. That's it. After that, you completely build the character.

 

Every Souls game has had hard caps and soft caps on stats. Soft caps mean that the increase in stats after a certain amount of points have been invested will show diminishing returns. Hard caps pretty much mean that the points won't raise your stats at all, give or take a little bit here and there. For instance, 99 STR only gives a few more points in Attack Rating than 40 STR, which is the hard cap. (this is with A-S scaling in STR on the weapon). The caps have almost always been 40 on attack stats like STR/DEX. 

 

Vigor is never that important because most of the time you die anyway in a few hits. I can't recall the last time I raised it past 20.

 

Adaptability was important in DS2 because of the invincibility frames it gave you during your rolling animation. As in, higher agility can give you up to 0.5 seconds of invincibility regardless of hitbox detection during your rolls. That doesn't sound like much, but it is. I don't think DS3 has this stat, but whatever else influences these rolling frames will be important.

 

Fire scales off of INT and FAITH, up to a maximum of 60 combined points in the two stats. This means that if you have 30 INT and 30 FTH it'll raise your Fire bonus as much as having 20 INT and 40 FTH, and so forth. As long as INT and FTH combined are 60 you reach the hard cap for Fire bonus. 

 

Attunement will have to be raised to equip spells. I wouldn't go higher than 2 slots if you're primarily melee. Fire Sword spell is honestly only good if you have a weapon already infused with fire, but I only recommend that on weapons that are native Fire based already (meaing they come with fire already in the default version of the weapon, like the Black Knight Halberd, etc). Once you infuse these native fire weapons with fire, the STR/DEX scaling doesn't take a nosedive like other weapons. (for instance, putting fire on a Greatsword will drop the STR scaling all the way down to about C instead of A, resulting in much lower damage). If you infuse your regular weapons with fire (or any element), the STR or DEX scaling drops down significantly and the weapon will scale more with INT/FTH, and due to your lack of INT/FTH on a melee build the results will be disappointing. It's best to leave weapons uninfused, in my opinion, when not going for a hybrid/sorcerer/mage.

 

Vitality at 15 is awfully high unless you go for heavy weaponry. It's just there to increase your equipment load, and as long as you stay under 70% you'll roll fast. I suggest not raising that unless you find yourself unable to stay below 70% with the desired equipment on. Defense rating isn't that important anyway, so it's usually easier to just wear lighter stuff.

 

In the end, the Deprived class (or whatever it's called this time) is the best bet you have. It doesn't make the game harder at all, to be honest. In fact, it starts you at level 1 so you have full control over your stats. You can always go "Quality Build", which is 40 STR/40 DEX, enabling you to equip just about anything melee-related and scale high damage no matter what. It's the "can't go wrong build" for PvE. Honestly, any build can work for PvE.

 

PVP usually requires a much more devoted build that may or may not work in PvE as well. Usually involving poison, certain resistances, etc. That, or just use Katanas, since FromSoftware loves buffing those.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Paige-ID

[SnowyWhiteFox777]

Thank you so much Paige-ID! All my questions have been answered and I learned a lot.

 

Now I will be able to invade noobs and take their souls with this information! Muhahaha

 

.

[Paige-ID]

Thank you so much Paige-ID! All my questions have been answered and I learned a lot.

 

Now I will be able to invade noobs and take their souls with this information! Muhahaha

 

.

No problem. The fextralife wiki pages help a lot. However, again, this is only if they keep the same rules as the previous Souls games. Little things change here and there with each new installment so you'd be wise to stay up to date once the game releases internationally.

[MMDE]

I think I will chose Warrior, because it has 4 points less in attunement and is 2 levels bellow the Knight. So basically, if I don't use magic, I will save 5 points to use somewhere else. Also, the luck might be useful against poison weapons in pvp.

 

Poison and bleeding has always been rather useless IMO. It's basically slow damage instead of quick damage... Not very useful! It's fun with poison arrows against enemies, especially when you got some kind of theif ring, but else, poison is pretty useless.

In the end, the Deprived class (or whatever it's called this time) is the best bet you have. It doesn't make the game harder at all, to be honest. In fact, it starts you at level 1 so you have full control over your stats. You can always go "Quality Build", which is 40 STR/40 DEX, enabling you to equip just about anything melee-related and scale high damage no matter what. It's the "can't go wrong build" for PvE. Honestly, any build can work for PvE.

 

This is very wrong!

 

The way to pick starter class is to look for what class has invested the least in the stat you aren't going to invest anything in. Or to put it in other words, have invested the least points wrong. Deprived starts with 10 in everything, unless you plan on getting all stats up to at least 10, this is the worst class you can pick.

Why is this important? Because your starter class only permanently determines minimum stats. Everything else can be changed later. Why is minimum stats important? You have a soul level, which goes up by one for each stat you invest. It is usually used to determine who you can play against and with, so you may not want to just keep leveling up and stop at a certain level. When you stop at this level, you want to have as high stats as you can for the things you focus. Wrongly invested stats are therefore a waste. Even if you don't want to stop, late leveling requires so much more souls that just a couple of stat points are annoying if spent wrong. This is the one thing you can't change later in the game.

 

Again, deprived is probably the worst class you can pick. Not only does it screw with your stats, but it even start you with less items.

Edited March 27, 2016 by MMDE

[Paige-ID]

 

 

Poison and bleeding has always been rather useless IMO. It's basically slow damage instead of quick damage... Not very useful! It's fun with poison arrows against enemies, especially when you got some kind of theif ring, but else, poison is pretty useless.

Wait now. Bleed I have mixed feelings about, balancing towards the "meh" side. But poison? Poison is extremely overpowered. Put poison on any Twin Blade or a fast poking weapon such as an Estoc or any Rapier and you'll shred whatever is in your way, especially in PvP. Not to mention if you poison a person it makes them panic, causing you to be able to clean up fast. Poison requires a fast weapon so its applied fast, but it's phenomenal. Not to mention bosses can be poisoned also, or any invader NPCs. Then you just have to sit back and watch them die, fast. (Especially Toxic, which truly devastates) 

 

If great swords/ultra greatswords are your thing, then no. But a quick weapon with poison on it is almost a must to have with you, in my opinion. Poison the opponent, then switch to your main melee weapon to not only throw them off, but also to mop up quickly.

 

 

This is very wrong!

 

The way to pick starter class is to look for what class has invested the least in the stat you aren't going to invest anything in. Or to put it in other words, have invested the least points wrong. Deprived starts with 10 in everything, unless you plan on getting all stats up to at least 10, this is the worst class you can pick.

Why is this important? Because your starter class only permanently determines minimum stats. Everything else can be changed later. Why is minimum stats important? You have a soul level, which goes up by one for each stat you invest. It is usually used to determine who you can play against and with, so you may not want to just keep leveling up and stop at a certain level. When you stop at this level, you want to have as high stats as you can for the things you focus. Wrongly invested stats are therefore a waste. Even if you don't want to stop, late leveling requires so much more souls that just a couple of stat points are annoying if spent wrong. This is the one thing you can't change later in the game.

 

Again, deprived is probably the worst class you can pick. Not only does it screw with your stats, but it even start you with less items.

 

It's not very wrong at all. Only if you're a min/maxer does starting class matter. End game there is simply no difference. For starters, you can simply just get 99 in everything if you grind long enough. Second, after SL150+ you have so many points available that it just doesn't change anything anymore. However, from what I've heard Soul Memory is no longer a ting, so we're back to Soul Level tiers. That means that he might want to stick to whatever the meta will be, usually around 125-150. At that point what might be wasted stats for one build will be necessary for others. If the OP wants to dip into the PvP world then a variety of builds will most likely go through his or her fingertips. 

 

With that said; Deprived gives you the most balanced start without even the smallest commitment. If they have Soul Vessels in DS3, you'll always revert back to the most balanced as opposed to always reverting back to either a pre-dispositioned caster or a melee. The extreme minute amount of wasted points of a Deprived is balanced out by the sheer variety it brings for the entire duration of the character. Especially considering he/she wants to do PvP as well, so a restat/Soul Vessel is almost a must at that point if you don't want to start all over. At that point, Deprived gives you all the options.

 

So in the end, if you can re-allocate points like you could in DS2, then deprived is your best bet. Unless you don't mind making multiple characters that each min/max the best, though you'll find it doesn't make a damn bit of difference when everything is all said and done.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Paige-ID

[MMDE]

It's not very wrong at all. Only if you're a min/maxer does starting class matter. End game there is simply no difference. For starters, you can simply just get 99 in everything if you grind long enough. Second, after SL150+ you have so many points available that it just doesn't change anything anymore. However, from what I've heard Soul Memory is no longer a ting, so we're back to Soul Level tiers. That means that he might want to stick to whatever the meta will be, usually around 125-150. At that point what might be wasted stats for one build will be necessary for others. If the OP wants to dip into the PvP world then a variety of builds will most likely go through his or her fingertips. 

 

With that said; Deprived gives you the most balanced start without even the smallest commitment. If they have Soul Vessels in DS3, you'll always revert back to the most balanced as opposed to always reverting back to either a pre-dispositioned caster or a melee. The extreme minute amount of wasted points of a Deprived is balanced out by the sheer variety it brings for the entire duration of the character. Especially considering he/she wants to do PvP as well, so a restat/Soul Vessel is almost a must at that point if you don't want to start all over. At that point, Deprived gives you all the options.

 

So in the end, if you can re-allocate points like you could in DS2, then deprived is your best bet. Unless you don't mind making multiple characters that each min/max the best, though you'll find it doesn't make a damn bit of difference when everything is all said and done.

 

 

This doesn't take away from Deprived being the very worst / most useless class to start with in this game, unless there is another class that has spent more stats wrong than this class on useless shit.

 

Wait now. Bleed I have mixed feelings about, balancing towards the "meh" side. But poison? Poison is extremely overpowered. Put poison on any Twin Blade or a fast poking weapon such as an Estoc or any Rapier and you'll shred whatever is in your way, especially in PvP. Not to mention if you poison a person it makes them panic, causing you to be able to clean up fast. Poison requires a fast weapon so its applied fast, but it's phenomenal. Not to mention bosses can be poisoned also, or any invader NPCs. Then you just have to sit back and watch them die, fast. (Especially Toxic, which truly devastates) 

 

If great swords/ultra greatswords are your thing, then no. But a quick weapon with poison on it is almost a must to have with you, in my opinion. Poison the opponent, then switch to your main melee weapon to not only throw them off, but also to mop up quickly.

 

Poison and bleed is a trade-off for other stats like more damage output. Poison is more useless than bleed, that is if I remember correctly and you can only heal poison. But yeah, poison and bleed is slow damage you got lots of time to heal from, while doing a lot of damage quickly is a sure way to win PvP and PvE. Poison and bleed might harm enemies more in PvE that doesn't heal, but we're talking waiting them out which might harm you, and you're just as good off with poison arrows for such cases. I know poison and bleed has been popular, but never seen the point with it. People think it's useful, but it's slow damage that won't kill the player if they can heal.

Edited March 27, 2016 by MMDE

[Paige-ID]

This doesn't take away from Deprived being the very worst / most useless class to start with in this game, unless there is another class that has spent more stats wrong than this class on useless shit.

Like I said, there is no such thing as wasted stats up to 6 points. If anything, if you start the game with 2 in INT and later on want to try a Sorcerer, you're that much more behind with a ton of points in Vitality, which is definitely more wasted. 

 

And again, in the end stats don't make a difference at level 150+. If you have 40 STR or 43 STR, you're doing the same DPS. If there is such a thing as Soul Vessels in DS3, then a Deprived is in my opinion the best way to go if you want to explore all your options. If you're a diehard Melee/Magic-only then yeah, it'll be a nonsensical waste. Starting armor is great for fashion, but armor is pretty much useless anyway in Souls games (not completely, but it's not going to make or break you a lot). Nimbleness and evasion save the day, and with DS3 being faster on the Bloodborne engine this can only help more. The only thing that helps is starting weapons/spells, but I already covered that in my original reply.

 

 

Poison and bleed is a trade-off for other stats like more damage output. Poison is more useless than bleed, that is if I remember correctly and you can only heal poison. But yeah, poison and bleed is slow damage you got lots of time to heal from, while doing a lot of damage quickly is a sure way to win PvP and PvE. Poison and bleed might harm enemies more in PvE that doesn't heal, but we're talking waiting them out which might harm you, and you're just as good off with poison arrows for such cases. I know poison and bleed has been popular, but never seen the point with it. People think it's useful, but it's slow damage that won't kill the player if they can heal.

For starters, in PvE they don't heal, so that's easy. Waiting out is not what you do. You go after other enemies while the enemy dies of poison. Regardless, boss battles is where you see poison shine, or most definitely in PVP. Most top tier PVP people love poison, and for good reason. It destroys you.

 

You also can't heal in PVP. Any phantoms the opponent may have summoned are blocked out of healing, and a Lloyd Talisman blocks the host out of Estus as well. Not to mention, chugging an Estus Flask is a complete and total death sentence. If your opponent heals (which is weak anyway in duels, but acceptable during invasions imo) then you're simply not applying enough pressure. The Estus animation is so long that it's always a win for me when someone decides to chug. Life Gems don't heal fast enough, and healing Miracles take too long to cast. With that said, you technically only have 1 bar of health to play with, and poison chipping away at that is a death sentence 9/10 times. (unless you're fighting people who are too cautious/inexperienced. Then you can just heal out of it).

Edited March 27, 2016 by Paige-ID

[MMDE]

Like I said, there is no such thing as wasted stats up to 6 points. If anything, if you start the game with 2 in INT and later on want to try a Sorcerer, you're that much more behind with a ton of points in Vitality, which is definitely more wasted. 

 

And again, in the end stats don't make a difference at level 150+. If you have 40 STR or 43 STR, you're doing the same DPS. If there is such a thing as Soul Vessels in DS3, then a Deprived is in my opinion the best way to go if you want to explore all your options. If you're a diehard Melee/Magic-only then yeah, it'll be a nonsensical waste. Starting armor is great for fashion, but armor is pretty much useless anyway in Souls games (not completely, but it's not going to make or break you a lot). Nimbleness and evasion save the day, and with DS3 being faster on the Bloodborne engine this can only help more. The only thing that helps is starting weapons/spells, but I already covered that in my original reply.

 

Again, this is nonsense reasoning. Your reasoning applies to all the classes. What I mean is, once you start playing you will invest in something for the first few levels anyway, so you will end up with one of the starting classes from deprived anyway. if you later regret you can invest in the other stats. That is if you simply don't care about investing properly. Do you understand why it's pretty much the same if that's your reasoning? But here's the kicker, picking Deprived you know you've no matter what made a bad choice, you've already planned on changing then, what a waste? Deprived is the least specialized, and you start with no items, and as such, the least useful and most likely the worst choice you can make.

 

Really, I don't get why you even try to argue against this. Have you thought this since the first Souls game you played or something? What I'm saying has been the way to pick classes since Demon's Souls. In Demon's Souls, you should pick Temple Knight if you're going for a strength/dex build or Royal for Magic. All the other classes are bad choices, of course unless you go for a Blueblood Sword, and that's pretty damn specific, and I think you can go for such a build with the Temple Knight too.

 

For starters, in PvE they don't heal, so that's easy. Waiting out is not what you do. You go after other enemies while the enemy dies of poison. Regardless, boss battles is where you see poison shine, or most definitely in PVP. Most top tier PVP people love poison, and for good reason. It destroys you.

 

You also can't heal in PVP. Any phantoms the opponent may have summoned are blocked out of healing, and a Lloyd Talisman blocks the host out of Estus as well. Not to mention, chugging an Estus Flask is a complete and total death sentence. If your opponent heals (which is weak anyway in duels, but acceptable during invasions imo) then you're simply not applying enough pressure. The Estus animation is so long that it's always a win for me when someone decides to chug. Life Gems don't heal fast enough, and healing Miracles take too long to cast. With that said, you technically only have 1 bar of health to play with, and poison chipping away at that is a death sentence 9/10 times. (unless you're fighting people who are too cautious/inexperienced. Then you can just heal out of it).

 

In most of the Souls games, enemies can heal in PvE... I'm not saying all enemies can, but a lot of "human" enemies can definitely heal. There are also some special bosses that heal. I'm not sure about Dark Souls III, but I doubt it's any different on this subject.

 

Enemies don't attack invading phantom, so the scenario of the host running into enemies to get away from you is not something that is negative if happens... It's the exact opposite.

 

If poison or bleed is really a problem, then there are stats against it in this game, so you'd have to hit them some few times quickly in succession. Why not just do more damage and kill them earlier, so they won't be able to attack you? Again, this is the problem with poison and bleed, it's slow damage. You're dead before it does the same damage.

 

I'm not sure if you can heal or not as a phantom, but you can definitely as the host. And there's always a chance to heal when enemy runs out of stamina, which is more likely if they have sacrificed some damage output that could have killed you already for later damage.

 

And no, poison is not popular among "top tier", it's "mid to low tier". What I said is that it's popular among many players, that doesn't mean the better players do it too. They really don't.

 

One thing that is awesome is poison arrows. As long as you can use a bow that can shoot far, it doesn't matter how much damage the arrow do or how good you are. If you can shoot at an enemy from afar with poison arrow without them coming after you to fight, you can beat them without any fighting. Poison arrows = easy game.

[Paige-ID]

 

Post

We'll agree to disagree. In the end, it simply doesn't matter what class you pick, which is why I said Deprived is the most balanced if you can re-allocate your stats later. It also doesn't matter how many points you "waste" because the small difference is completely negligible. And I've seen poison used for literally years and years since 2009, and I've used it myself against hundreds of opponents to great effect. If it doesn't work for you, then I understand that. However, don't completely write it off, because for others it works wonders.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Paige-ID

[MMDE]

We'll agree to disagree. In the end, it simply doesn't matter what class you pick, which is why I said Deprived is the most balanced if you can re-allocate your stats later. It also doesn't matter how many points you "waste" because the small difference is completely negligible. And I've seen poison used for literally years and years since 2009, and I've used it myself against hundreds of opponents to great effect. If it doesn't work for you, then I understand that. However, don't completely write it off, because for others it works wonders.

 

1. There's actually a thing that matters when you pick starter class. Only one as far as I know, and that is to pick a starter class that has the least invested in things you won't be improving. You ignoring this fact is just absurd.
2. Your argument with re-allocate later anyway isn't a good argument for why deprived is a good choice, the other classes got invested in the things you initially want to invest in any way. Deprived just sets you back and with a harder start due to lack of equipment, lower overall level and investment in stats you don't initially focus on.
3. A "balanced" build is a build that is not good at anything. It's a bad build for the most part. You should at least aim at focusing on something, worst case you can invest in something else too, but this shouldn't be the default.
4. There simply isn't any good reason to start with deprived other than adding to the challenge. That's why it exist. It doesn't exist as a good basis, it's shit, so you will have a harder time.

Like this isn't hard to understand, and is pretty clear cut.

 

 

Of course poison does damage, so of course it works... Nobody is denying this. What I'm telling you is that it's a trade off, you trade away more instant damage for slow damage. This isn't a good trade in most cases, and those cases where it's useful, you got poison arrows. This isn't a very determining thing for anyone's playthrough of the game though, because you can swap it out later. Many people like the idea that they do damage without harming the person, think they get some cheap damage in, but really, it's just slow damage instead of more instant. It might be useful if you're a mage and got a little knife or something for melee, that knife better be good at parrying too. Even then the focus should be more magic damage etc. In any case, I don't know how they've balanced the poison and bleed this time around, so I can't really say anything certain about it.

Edited March 27, 2016 by MMDE

[Paige-ID]

 

1. There's actually a thing that matters when you pick starter class. Only one as far as I know, and that is to pick a starter class that has the least invested in things you won't be improving. You ignoring this fact is just absurd.
2. Your argument with re-allocate later anyway isn't a good argument for why deprived is a good choice, the other classes got invested in the things you initially want to invest in any way. Deprived just sets you back and with a harder start due to lack of equipment, lower overall level and investment in stats you don't initially focus on.
3. A "balanced" build is a build that is not good at anything. It's a bad build for the most part. You should at least aim at focusing on something, worst case you can invest in something else too, but this shouldn't be the default.
4. There simply isn't any good reason to start with deprived other than adding to the challenge. That's why it exist. It doesn't exist as a good basis, it's shit, so you will have a harder time.

Like this isn't hard to understand, and is pretty clear cut.

 

 

Of course poison does damage, so of course it works... Nobody is denying this. What I'm telling you is that it's a trade off, you trade away more instant damage for slow damage. This isn't a good trade in most cases, and those cases where it's useful, you got poison arrows. This isn't a very determining thing for anyone's playthrough of the game though, because you can swap it out later. Many people like the idea that they do damage without harming the person, think they get some cheap damage in, but really, it's just slow damage instead of more instant. It might be useful if you're a mage and got a little knife or something for melee, that knife better be good at parrying too. Even then the focus should be more magic damage etc. In any case, I don't know how they've balanced the poison and bleed this time around, so I can't really say anything certain about it.

 

Ok, we won't agree to disagree then. I've literally played these games for thousands of hours and Deprived gives you the most bang for your buck if you wish to re-allocate later in case you're unsure of what to specialize in. 6 points is simple never wasted on any stats, regardless of what you do, when playing a lot of PVP/NG++. You will always want 6 in every single stat, simply no matter what. That also brings me to the point that there is no such thing as classes, and that you always end up with whatever you want at SL 150 anyway, regardless of what you picked. That means Deprived can work just fine as well, and is not total shit like you so strongly try to hammer down.

 

I said it was a viable option in case you're unsure, without the fear of having anything wasted if you later change your mind. Not the only option while the rest are wrong. How do you know if he won't be improving magic later on? Or maybe melee only? You have no idea. Like I clearly stated; if he is 100% sure that he's going to be melee only, or magic only, then it would be wasted points for no reason. But he doesn't! In fact, he's debating fire infusions and some spells. Now all of a sudden we need points invested in all categories. Again, with 6 points in each stat being practically mandatory at higher levels (what else are you going to put them in once you hit caps? nothing.) it simply doesn't make Deprived a "shit" choice. It's just another choice. Min/maxing only matters if you apply arbitrary restrictions on yourself, like wanting to stay in a low meta tier of SL50-60 or something. Then it matters. 100+? Doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

 

But, your advice might work for him as well. Just don't call mine completely and totally wrong/shit because it's not what you prefer or would do yourself.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Paige-ID

[MMDE]

Ok, we won't agree to disagree then. I've literally played these games for thousands of hours and Deprived gives you the most bang for your buck if you wish to re-allocate later in case you're unsure of what to specialize in. 6 points is simple never wasted on any stats, regardless of what you do, when playing a lot of PVP/NG++. You will always want 6 in every single stat, simply no matter what. That also brings me to the point that there is no such thing as classes, and that you always end up with whatever you want at SL 150 anyway, regardless of what you picked. That means Deprived can work just fine as well, and is not total shit like you so strongly try to hammer down.

 

I said it was a viable option in case you're unsure, without the fear of having anything wasted if you later change your mind. Not the only option while the rest are wrong. How do you know if he won't be improving magic later on? Or maybe melee only? You have no idea. Like I clearly stated; if he is 100% sure that he's going to be melee only, or magic only, then it would be wasted points for no reason. But he doesn't! In fact, he's debating fire infusions and some spells. Now all of a sudden we need points invested in all categories. Again, with 6 points in each stat being practically mandatory at higher levels (what else are you going to put them in once you hit caps? nothing.) it simply doesn't make Deprived a "shit" choice. It's just another choice. Min/maxing only matters if you apply arbitrary restrictions on yourself, like wanting to stay in a low meta tier of SL50-60 or something. Then it matters. 100+? Doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

 

But, your advice might work for him as well. Just don't call mine completely and totally wrong/shit because it's not what you prefer or would do yourself.

 

... I've of course not played the game for probably just as long??? =P Not written guides for some of the games. Nah... So let's just listen to you because you've played the game a lot.

 

In any case, I've responded to everything you just said, and it's simply not correct. I don't know why it's so hard to understand, it's pretty simple logic. What you argued is mathematically incorrect.

 

You said one new thing here though, that some few wasted points doesn't matter, but why do it? You realize you're wasting points selecting that starter class, yet, you argue it's the best.

 

It's not the best bang for your bucks. All starter class in DS3 has 99 points spent on level 10, all. In DS1 I think Pyromancy had one extra point.

 

If you want to spend points on other stuff later........ then you can always do that.... there's no point picking a class that has spent a lot of points on things you know you won't go for early in the game, or maybe ever. It simply isn't.

 

Just so you get what I'm saying, I'm going to give you an example.

 

Imagine if I wanted a str build, I'd invest in str.... if I started with Deprived, I'd have low str compared to some of the other classes, and I'd have to invest in that. I'll likely invest in END too, and some VIT or DEX etc. When I start at Deprived, I'd have to level up those to get them to the same place another starter class is already at... Right? But in this case, I'd have to level up to get to the same place. And not only that, but the class has invested in things I wouldn't want to invest in, at least not yet, and as such I'd need to level  up even more to get to the same place. Start out with a class that has stats you want and as least as possible of the stats you don't want. You can invest in other stats later if you want, doesn't make a difference at that point, but you're not setting yourself up from the beginning to invest in things you have no plans of investing in yet.

 

You also start out without a lot of decent equipment.... This isn't a big problem, but it's another reason not to pick Deprived.

 

Deprived is a challenge yourself class, make the game harder. It's not a good class to start with for any other reason. It simply isn't. Deprived is the shit choice.

[Bartolomeus]

I think I agree with MMDE here. I agree with you, Paige-ID, that once you reach level 120 or 150, a few levels more in one skill or the other doesn't matter, but I ultimately agree with MMDE that it's the start that matters, because in the first few hours of the game those few levels matter a lot; those few levels are the difference between the ability to wield or not to wield a particular weapon or piece of armor that can be cruical to your success, or whether you can use a certain spell or not. It's a lot easier to start with low levels in the skills you do not intend to use early on, so that you reach the necessary levels of the skills that matter early on (str/dex for weapons, vit for fast roll with certain armor sets, vig/end for general survivability). So instead of starting with level 10 int and strength, you can pick a class that starts with 6 int and 14 strength and be much closer to wielding the weapons you desire to do. I haven't read all that has been written in this thread, so I do run the risk of basically repeating MMDE almost word for word here. In that case; sorry.

 

If you do start with deprived, though; kudos! I never had the balls to do so when I first played Dark Souls (that club and piece of plank they insisted on calling a shield did not tempt me at all), and I haven't grown a pair to do so ever since.

 

EDIT: Did not finish a sentance. Which is unfortunate.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Bartoulum

[MMDE]

You also can't heal in PVP. Any phantoms the opponent may have summoned are blocked out of healing, and a Lloyd Talisman blocks the host out of Estus as well. Not to mention, chugging an Estus Flask is a complete and total death sentence. If your opponent heals (which is weak anyway in duels, but acceptable during invasions imo) then you're simply not applying enough pressure. The Estus animation is so long that it's always a win for me when someone decides to chug. Life Gems don't heal fast enough, and healing Miracles take too long to cast. With that said, you technically only have 1 bar of health to play with, and poison chipping away at that is a death sentence 9/10 times. (unless you're fighting people who are too cautious/inexperienced. Then you can just heal out of it).

 

 

I saw another video where they healed as red phantom, so can definitely heal as invading phantom.

 

 

 

I think I agree with MMDE here. I agree with you, Paige-ID, that once you reach level 120 or 150, a few levels more in one skill or the other doesn't matter, but I ultimately agree with MMDE that it's the start that matters, because in the first few hours of the game those few levels matter a lot; those few levels are the difference between the ability to wield or not to wield a particular weapon or piece of armor that can be cruical to your success, or whether you can use a certain spell or not. It's a lot easier to start with low levels in the skills you do not intend to use early on, so that you reach the necessary levels of the skills that matter early on (str/dex for weapons, vit for fast roll with certain armor sets, vig/end for general survivability). So instead of starting with level 10 int and strength, you can pick a class that starts with 6 int and 14 strength and be much closer to wielding the weapons you desire to do. I haven't read all that has been written in this thread, so I do run the risk of basically repeating MMDE almost word for word here. In that case; sorry.

 

If you do start with deprived, though; kudos! I never had the balls to do so when I first played Dark Souls (that club and piece of plank they insisted on calling a shield did not tempt me at all), and I haven't grown a pair to do so ever since.

 

Ultimately, I also think it is pointless to start out invested in things you've yet to decide invest in, just in case you may do that later. And if you do want to later, you can just as easily then. I just don't see the reason to start "all-around", it's like all-around "bad". And yeah, it's clear that class serve as a challenge run class. I'm certainly not going to pick it, even with all the time I've spent playing the previous games. In any case, my only argument with him about this was what class is best/worst to start with, how do you decide what class to go with? It should be the class that has the least invested in things you don't wanna invest in and the rest really doesn't matter, because that you can improve as you play. Deprived has like all-around poorly invested in everything from the get-go.

 

Too bad the game is not out before in 2 weeks in Europe.

 

I honestly haven't played Bloodborne much on my own yet. I simply don't own a copy of the game. But I ordered a copy of the GotY edition the other day. They had it on platekompaniet for 400NOK, and because it's Easter they gave me free shipping. Thought that was a decent deal. I have had a hard time finding a cheap copy up until now. I wanted a physical copy, and honestly, I wanted the GotY edition lol.

 

I see you've played Bloodborne, Dark 1 and 2 so far. You should definitely play some Demon's too.

Edited March 28, 2016 by MMDE

[Paige-ID]

text

I'll try this one more time; we'll agree to disagree. I still disagree with you. There is nothing wrong with that. I still don't think my advice is shit. I suggested something he may want to try. Not once did I say it was the best option. I said it didn't matter. I also don't think your advice is shit and I respect your input. Note that I never shit on anything you said. I merely defended that I maintain my stance as far as viability goes. Souls games have no shit class. They're all the same in the end, with no trace of what class you picked. Every class will eventually do what the other one does. Min/maxers that will never switch playstyles like you would certainly benefit from a certain class at the beginning. Someone like me that switches playstyle constantly does not suffer from the Deprived choice. It's not the best choice, but not a shit one either. Mathematically, this is not incorrect at all. If I will put 6 points into everything anyway, then why would starting with nothing but 6 be harmful? It wouldn't be. Would Vitality at 12 be harmful? Yes, because I wouldn't wear heavy armor. Will 6 in everything EVER be harmful? No.

 

Level 1 - 6 points in everything.

Level 150 - 149 + 54 = 203 points. STR 40. DEX 40. VIG 30. END 30. VIT 15. ATN 6. INT 6. ADP 6. FTH 6.  179 points in total. 24 points left. We'll raise Adaptability (this is using DS2, obviously) until Agility is 99. Another 9 points gone, so that's now 15 left. What are you going to do with those? All you have left is INT/FTH/ATN. I suppose we'd start with ATN to get a slot, which would require another 6 to bring it to 12. Now there's still 9 points left. Obviously, at this point there is no trace of a Deprived, meaning it's not shit. It's as viable as anything else is.

 

Say a bandit wants to become a mage character. Now he has a bunch of points in Vitality that he doesn't ever need after a Soul Vessel (another thing I clearly mentioned was important), even in the highest level tiers. A lot of STR/DEX, which is fine for weaponry. But now we have to raise INT/FTH from 2/4 or so. In the end, we now wasted as many points. Not that it's a big deal because at 150 we have an overload anyway, but if you're a min/maxer then whatever floats your boat. Deprived wouldn't have lost/gained anything different. Stat wise, in the end game, a Deprived is no less advantageous than ANY other class. Class has never meant a single thing in any Souls game. Meaning, it's perfectly viable and not shit. 

 

Will it be a little harder in the beginning? I personally never thought so, but potentially, yes. Any class armor that's worn is usually found within the first hour of the game anyway. I also warned for this. Again, didn't say it was the best. That's something you pulled out of your own ass. I simply said it was a viable option.

 

Also, I never insinuated that you didn't play the game a lot. You did insinuate that I simply couldn't grasp basic concepts. Perhaps next time you'll be able to simply give your two cents if someone asks for advice without feeling the deep desire to shit on someone else's also legitimate advice as well, hm?

Edited March 28, 2016 by Paige-ID

[MMDE]

We're not talking about DS2, just saying...

 

http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Classes

 

Deprived starts with 10 at everything, not 6. All the other classes starts with less than 10 at something.

 

In other words, Deprived is definitely the worst choice. Just facts.

 

And as you saw, phantoms can heal... so that's wrong as well...

 

You may mean well, but when your advice aren't good because they're based on incorrect information, it's really no good and you should be happy when someone correct it.

Edited March 28, 2016 by MMDE

[SnowyWhiteFox777]

I like both of your opinions, but I will side more with MMDE in the end, since I plan on choosing the Warrior class, and because I aim to be between lvl100 and no more than lvl125 for pvp. I also think this guy explains it well at 8:55 of the video.

Also, if you guys want to fight, you should do it in the pvp ring. lol

[MMDE]

I also think this guy explains it well at 8:55 of the video.

 

If you see the comments in the comment field, you will see the guy gets some things wrong, like the exact numbers of how equipment load affect your rolling. Apparently, in DS3 it's fat roll when above 70%, and else it's normal roll. No mid-roll.

 

How poise works is a bit up in the air as of now.

 

 

Anyway, it raised an interesting question when it comes to how useful luck is. Does it raise resistance or increase chance for inflicting poison. hmm Luck might be useful for curse resistance. It's also questionable how well luck helps with item drop chances, especially when it comes to enemies that can drop more than one type of item and it's chance to drop the rare item.

 

If the luck stat is rather useless for most use, you don't wanna pick Warrior, but instead Knight.

 

Pyromancy might also be a very good choice depending on how you decide to play. I'm probably going to pick Knight, but depending on how good certain magic and how useful Pyromancy is early in the game and whatnot, I might pick that.

 

Also, personally, I prefer dex builds with some pyro (depending on how that works), especially for PvE. This comes down to my play style, and it also allow me to be super cheap if I really want to. Dex builds often invest a bit in strength as well, because usually you gain less and less for each upgrade, and strength might improve more or your preferred weapon might scale a bit with strength. For example a bigger non-automatic (non-cross-bows) bow often require some bit of strength, same with various swords and especially shields.

 

I'm probably going to go for a dex + pyro/magic build for PvE, and I will explain why later on. So let's compare how the two classes goes up against each other with this in mind:

• Level: Doesn't really matter at all, but higher hopefully means less leveling needed to spend the points at the same stats you would anyway.
• Vigor: If you're going for a melee build, you're likely to take some damage, this might reduced depending on how you play. If you're good at parrying or use a shield, then this might not be that high. It should be high enough so you survive a hit or two without dying, but that's about it. Both classes stands pretty much equal here, there's no reason to pick one over the other, but warrior has spent more on it already, and you will likely spend more later, so it might be preferable here.
• Attunement: This is a big difference between the two. Warrior is down at 6, the least for any class, while knight is at 10, where 10 is the bare minimum to use any magic. If you are going for a pure melee build, this might be a determining factor, but if you plan on using any magic at all, then they are pretty much equal here too, and preference comes down to if you want to be able to use magic as soon as you get some or if you want to level it up later and focus on strength first. I personally wouldn't have a problem with Warrior, but I'd prefer Knight, since I want to use magic!
• Endurance: This is a very important stat for one reason, it governs your stamina. Stamina is super important for most builds, and I don't see how that is any different when it comes to melee builds. You want at least 20 endurance, but it's very common to get it to 40, because that's where the stamina gain stops. Don't level it above 40. Both classes have less than 20 end, with warrior already having spent a couple of points more at it, but they stand pretty much equal here, with warrior maybe being preferable because you don't need to invest in it later.
• Vitality: This stat very much depends on your play style and weapons, armor and whatnot you want to use, because this stat governs the maximum equip load. In the case of dex builds, these are usually much lighter than str builds, because less heavy armor, weapons etc. You will likely get it up a little bit from what both classes starts at, so they are pretty equal in this regard. Knight starts out quite a bit higher, might not be what you want to spend a lot of points on early in the game, but it may also allow you to wear some decent armor and weapons early too. Personally, I'd just go with Knight here, but Warrior doesn't have any disadvantages other than having to level it up later.
• Strength: Strength allow you to use more powerful weapons and increase physical damage output, may also scale with certain weapons. If you're going for a dex build, you may not need a lot of strength early on, depends a bit on weapons you want to use and their requirements. Warrior starts at 16, which is a bit high if going for dex build, but might be totally okay too. You're likely to get it to around 16-22 or something with a dex build anyway. Knight starts out lower here, so I might prefer that early on, but they stand rather equal, and won't really affect you much in the long run. The max strength in a dex build may be determined by what is required to wield a certain shield, if you plan on using that etc. Shields are not necessarily needed if you go with double katanas, roll well and parry for example, but I like shields (defends better against the unknown). But strength is for serious brute builds.
• Dexterity: Same as strength, but affects other types of weapons, like curved swords, bows etc, and it also lowers the time it takes to cast magic. The latter makes it a very good fit with a magic build. Dex fits very well with Katanas and bows etc, but also some light and quick magic casting. In a dex build, you're likely to get this stat to 40, where from there it's diminishing returns for each increase. Dex allows for more all-round character that focus on physical, but doesn't take a big hit from also allowing for magic and bows etc. Just to be clear, bows are rarely good for PvP or melee, it's cheap distance damage. Either to harm enemy without ever engaging them melee (poison arrows + thief ring, very cheap), or weaken before battle or do some strange distance attack where the enemy think it's safe. Knight shines here with more invested in dex, but it doesn't really matter much, as it's just to invest more with the warrior.
• Intelligence: Increase magic and pyromancy damage output, but also magic defense. Not sure, but some spells might require higher int to actually use too. You may want to invest a little bit in this stat, but not much, it depends on if certain spells you wanna use require a specific amount of int to use, or if you want certain spells you got to do a certain amount of damage. It also helps when it comes to being strong against magic attacks, which might be useful even for a melee build. This stat's magic def increases seems a bit strange to me, but might be the data I'm reading is wrong. Knight has invested 1 point more in this, and I don't think it really matters much even if pure melee build, but may not want to invest in it if pure melee, idk. If you go for a dex + pyromancy and magic build, then it may be this need to be higher than even knight's int. Possible con to Knight, but meh, idk.
• Faith: This stat is very difficult to say too much about at this point. It affects miracles and pyromancy, along with higher dark defense. How much dark you will encounter, idk... If melee build, sometimes it's useful along with a faith scaling weapon (upgrade path). Likely, you don't need this particularly high, especially not early in the game. They're both equal when it comes to this, so it's a mute point either way between those two.
• Luck: This stat increases poison and bleed resistance, but also increase item discovery rate. It has usually been rather useless in the Souls games, the kind of stat you never put any points into, unless going for some very specific build. It has rarely helped on increases chances to get rare items. Bleed and poison is likely not that useful to be very resistant too, in which case there's rings and other equipment etc that can help. It's basically slow damage instead of more instant, and you get decent time to heal. I'd say, think carefully before ever investing in it. Knight has a clear advantage here with 4 less points spent on it. This makes a huge difference IMO when it comes to the choice between warrior and knight.

To sum it up, warrior might have a slight advantage if you don't ever plan on using any magic, but it still has very high luck. Knight is clearly the better choice if you ever plan on using any magic. Just to mix it up a bit... Mercenary might be a better choice than Warrior if you're going for dex + magic build, though I'd slightly prefer Knight, due to lower luck, even if higher faith, due to maybe increase faith to use some miracle late in the game.

 

 

This is what I considered when I told you that Knight was the better choice for melee build. If you see my thoughts on the various stats, you will also see my reasoning for dex + magic. You get a diverse melee build with lots of interesting play styles and capable of using magic without taking too much hit from it.

 

The game has mostly a soft cap when it comes to leveling for PvE, where at some point a new level require so many souls that leveling up isn't something you do very often.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

I highly recommend checking out this thread:

http://fextralife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51042

 

It seems FROM has made an attempt to nerf shield and katana a bit, so they might be less powerful in this game. Time will tell how much this affects PvE.

 

It's also interesting to see that they've given more benefits to light armor (less fall damage).

 

And yeah, it seem invaders gets half amount of Estus, so they can definitely heal with Estus when invading.

Edited March 28, 2016 by MMDE

[Bartolomeus]

I honestly haven't played Bloodborne much on my own yet. I simply don't own a copy of the game. But I ordered a copy of the GotY edition the other day. They had it on platekompaniet for 400NOK, and because it's Easter they gave me free shipping. Thought that was a decent deal. I have had a hard time finding a cheap copy up until now. I wanted a physical copy, and honestly, I wanted the GotY edition lol.

Ah, you really have something to look forward to. The setting and the atmosphere are the most magical things about this game in my opinion, and I really wish I could experience that for the first time again. I'm looking forward to seeing what you think and feel about the game.    Not a bad price for the GOTY edition, btw. Speaking of it; I should really get off my fat ass and purchase the DLC myself.

 

 

 

I see you've played Bloodborne, Dark 1 and 2 so far. You should definitely play some Demon's too.

 

Yes, I've got Demon's Souls lying around. I doubt I will play it before DS3, but I will definitely platinum it at some point. I first played Demon's Souls after I played Dark Souls and Dark Souls II, so I don't find Demon's as magical as the people who lost their Souls virginity to it, but it is one of the best games I've played and I'll undoubtedly play the hell out of it later.