Discussing the story of the game (SPOILERS)

[TheAveryChu]

The spoilers tag is in the title for a reason. 

I figured this could be a general discussion of the game's story that would be considered spoilers for most.

 

I figured I would start by posting my own thoughts below (warning, long read, TL;DR version available).

 

 

Last Saturday I finished the main storyline of FFXV, and I'm sure I have many of the same complaints about the story that many others have, but I figured I would highlight what exactly I think went wrong, and what could have been changed to make it better. 

 

First off, before going into FFXV I had intentionally limited the amount of background lore and information given out during the game's development as I had hoped to take it all in upon playing the game itself. I have done some research since completing the game, although I'm sure there is a lot of vital information that I do not know, which is ultimately a major flaw of FFXV's writing. That being said, if someone is capable of enlightening me with relevant information regarding the world and XV's development it would be appreciated.

Final Fantasy XV's main storyline, relies too greatly on outside media such as Kingslave, and Brotherhood, as well as information given out during the development of this game. If you are someone who doesn't know anything, or knows very little about the FFXV universe upon starting the game, then you are going to have a very bad time with XV's story. 

For example, we can determine that there is a King named Regis, and he is sending his son off on a journey to meet his wife in some city. From there Noctis's journey begins, although at no point is the fact that there is a war going on with an empire know as Niflheim, and that they are an empire bent on conquering and expanding their territories as much as possible. It is also never established that there is an important crystal protecting Regis's Kingdom, something that is a very important element of XV's story.

None of this may be a problem for fans that are well versed in this world, but for new players, or players that simply do not want to read a textbook before playing the game, this is all extremely important information that isn't clearly communicated to the player. 

The goal of background lore and additional side content such as Kingslave should be to build upon the source content, not provide the foundation for it, which is the exact opposite of what we have with XV. This alone is setting the rest of the story up to fail, as right from the begging of the narrative, players are incapable understanding what the game is even about without first doing a research paper on it, and everything that happens in Noctis's journey cannot be appreciated as players lack vital context and reason to be invested in the events. 


Including all the background lore, I do think that much of XV's story is very good, although there were a few additional missteps that damage the narrative greatly. 

From my understanding, XV changed directors mid-development, from Tetsuya Nomura (the most beautiful man ever to live), to Hajime Tabata. I'm uncertain what the creative differences between the two directors were, so it would be great if someone could expand upon that. Although, I did notice quite a drastic shift in tone, and the direction of the story about halfway through the game, and I have a feeling that having two different director's with different visions may be the source of this problem.

The first half of XV is essentially a bro trip, consisting of a bunch of bros doing bro things, while on a quest to save pretty boy's waifu, and to stop the evil empire from taking his kingdom. I feel that the second half begins around the time of Luna's death. At this point, the story focuses more on the daemons and the Starscourge (something I had to look up on the FF wiki). Around this point, the story effectively drops any significance Niflhiem had in the narrative, and focuses on Ardyn's evil daemon revenge plot.

As a result, the whole conflict of the "two kingdoms at war", is dropped and isn't concluded satisfactorily. It feels like what XV's story abruptly ended out of nowhere, and the premise of another game takes the place of what should be the second act of XV. 

Basically my idea is this. FFXV should have focused solely on the road trip of Noctis and friends on his quest to save Luna and his Kingdom. There are many ways this could happen, but XV should essentially conclude with the defeat of Niflhiem, and Noctis's reunion with Luna. Having removed Ardyn's storyline from the game, this would have allowed Square to spend more time establishing the world and all of its vital information, as well as satisfactorily building upon the Lucis-Niflheim conflict.  

However, I find that Ardyn's storyline holds promise, although it is so drastically different from the rest of XV that is feels out of place in this game. I find that this storyline would have been an excellent premise for a XV-II. In a theoretical sequel, the road trip element, along with the Niflheim conflict could be mostly dropped. The game could focus on developing Ardyn's character as well as building upon his plot to spread darkness over the entire world. 

Instead of cramming what feels like two entirely different games together, breaking them apart would allow both concepts to flourish, as Square would have had much more flexibility in not only developing the world, but actually communicating the world to the average gamer. 

 

 

TL;DR

Nothing in XV makes any sense, make XV into two different games.



 

[SkyMason]

Yeah totally agree with what you wrote. This game relies way too much on stuff that a good portion of its audience won't have experienced in any form. On top of that, even characters which are exclusively in the game are also poorly written. The only characters who had any kind of motivation and back story explained is Noctis and Ardyn. Everyone else had arcs that were either obviously left to the side for DLC (Ignis and Gladio) or just poorly written and thrown to the side (The revelation about Prompto in the penultimate dungeon comes out of nowhere, is briefly touched upon in the anime, and is just dropped around 30 seconds later. Seriously?). There are so many missed opportunities with the characters that it is just painful thinking about what could have been:

 

- Cor: Absolutely no mention at all after you leave for Altissia

- Cid: Interesting backstory mentioned but quickly moved on from

- Cindey: Again, interesting character but absolutely no development. If you're going to put eyecandy in the game at least have something to flesh out that character to not make it look like blatant fanservice.

- Aranea: Loved the dungeon section she was in but again criminally underused, and was probably one of the strongest personalities in the game.

- Regis: Complete joke in this game, half a scene, underutilised. Could have made a good justification for Noctis' moodiness but seems everyone moves on from his death after they hop in the car a couple hours later.

- The emperor: Holy shit. ONE SCENE. Then you fight him in a random fight later on. Why should the player care?

- Revus: Heavily advertised as an antagonist but gets reduced to about 2 or 3 scenes with little explaining his character or motivations. You have a fight with his dead ghoul or w/e, but this is so poorly done. It seems obvious that a lot of his story was cut out as there was a lot of mention of him using Regis' sword. Ended up just being a convenience for Noctis to pick up the sword in that dungeon. So. God. Damn. Stupid.

- Lunafreya: Probably the most disappointing character of all to me. Absolutely no dialogue between her and Noctis, other than those notes ("I have received the blessing. Thank you." I mean REALLY?) and a couple of scenes of them as kids. You are given a couple of scenes with her being a saviour of the people but absolutely nothing was done to actually her appear relatable or 'human'. When she died I just didn't care. Because once again, it was left to the player's imagination to feel in the gaps for her motivations and what, if anything, made her and Noctis an interesting romance. I could go on about her character, but I'll leave it there. Just so, so bad.

 

The bro troupe themselves, even though they had a few good moments together and the ending hit me hard, also felt a bit hollow when I thought about it. They are always interacting with each other and I get the basis of their relationships, but I never actually *knew* anything about them as individuals. Their background, other than the obvious, was left at a bare minimum, and it was up to the player again to flesh that out. Or indeed, the god damn DLC we'll get later.

 

I can't say I completely hated the game because I actually think it's a solid experience and I'm on my way to getting the plat. But this is imo the worst *told* story since the NES games. There's so much cut from it and it just sucks as a big Final Fantasy fan that the biggest flaw of this game is the narrative.

 

Hope this means nothing for KH3, as I don't think I could take it if this has anywhere near the same kind of problems this game did.

Edited December 6, 2016 by SkyMason

[TheAveryChu]

Yeah totally agree with what you wrote. This game relies way too much on stuff that a good portion of its audience won't have experienced in any form. On top of that, even characters which are exclusively in the game are also poorly written. The only characters who had any kind of motivation and back story explained is Noctis and Ardyn. Everyone else had arcs that were either obviously left to the side for DLC (Ignis and Gladio) or just poorly written and thrown to the side (The revelation about Prompto in the penultimate dungeon comes out of nowhere, is briefly touched upon in the anime, and is just dropped around 30 seconds later. Seriously?). There are so many missed opportunities with the characters that it is just painful thinking about what could have been:

 

- Cor: Absolutely no mention at all after you leave for Altissia

- Cid: Interesting backstory mentioned but quickly moved on from

- Cindey: Again, interesting character but absolutely no development. If you're going to put eyecandy in the game at least have something to flesh out that character to not make it look like blatant fanservice.

- Aranea: Loved the dungeon section she was in but again criminally underused, and was probably one of the strongest personalities in the game.

- Regis: Complete joke in this game, half a scene, underutilised. Could have made a good justification for Noctis' moodiness but seems everyone moves on from his death after they hop in the car a couple hours later.

- The emperor: Holy shit. ONE SCENE. Then you fight him in a random fight later on. Why should the player care?

- Revus: Heavily advertised as an antagonist but gets reduced to about 2 or 3 scenes with little explaining his character or motivations. You have a fight with his dead ghoul or w/e, but this is so poorly done. It seems obvious that a lot of his story was cut out as there was a lot of mention of him using Regis' sword. Ended up just being a convenience for Noctis to pick up the sword in that dungeon. So. God. Damn. Stupid.

- Lunafreya: Probably the most disappointing character of all to me. Absolutely no dialogue between her and Noctis, other than those notes ("I have received the blessing. Thank you." I mean REALLY?) and a couple of scenes of them as kids. You are given a couple of scenes with her being a saviour of the people but absolutely nothing was done to actually her appear relatable or 'human'. When she died I just didn't care. Because once again, it was left to the player's imagination to feel in the gaps for her motivations and what, if anything, made her and Noctis an interesting romance. I could go on about her character, but I'll leave it there. Just so, so bad.

 

The bro troupe themselves, even though they had a few good moments together and the ending hit me hard, also felt a bit hollow when I thought about it. They are always interacting with each other and I get the basis of their relationships, but I never actually *knew* anything about them as individuals. Their background, other than the obvious, was left at a bare minimum, and it was up to the player again to flesh that out. Or indeed, the god damn DLC we'll get later.

 

I can't say I completely hated the game because I actually think it's a solid experience and I'm on my way to getting the plat. But this is imo the worst *told* story since the NES games. There's so much cut from it and it just sucks as a big Final Fantasy fan that the biggest flaw of this game is the narrative.

 

Hope this means nothing for KH3, as I don't think I could take it if this has anywhere near the same kind of problems this game did.

You actually said a lot of stuff I was thinking, but decided not to add to my original post. I can't believe that the leader of this empire is a basic monster encounter. Considering his role in Kingslave, its almost comical.  

[ShadowReplicant]

You guys pretty much summed up my thoughts on the story. Here's my take on some of the characters (spoilers and massive wall of text incoming):

 

Cid: Cid's character had a lot of potential. I felt there could've been an interesting backstory to him that mirrored the relationship between Noctis and his buddies, as he obviously had a similar bond with Regis a long time ago. He could've been sort of a mentor character – Noctis' (and the player's) connection to the character of Regis and the old days.

 

Cindey: All tits... I mean, style over substance. She simply doesn't have a character. She's a grease monkey, that's all there is to her as far as personality. I think Cid mentioned something about her parents in one scene, but it's never brought up again and you never find out anything new or interesting about her that would make you care.

 

Aranea: She's a strange character to say the least. They had the right idea with her character arc, but it feels so rushed that I personally didn't care. First she tries to beat your ass and the next time you meet her, you're all buddy-buddy for some reason. Her story doesn't really go anywhere in the end, she just kind of decides to switch sides and that's that. It would've been interesting to see her relationship and/or disagreements with other Niflheim officials.

 

Regis: Likable character, not used in the game at all. I think his relationship with Noctis is one of the most touching elements of the story and they just did nothing with it. His death is glossed over quickly and his relationship with his son (or characters like Cid or that bar owner in Altissia) is barely explored.

 

The Emperor: Ridiculous. He was heavily featured in Kingsglaive, so you would think that he'd play a major role in the game as the leader of the evil empire. No. Along with the entire Niflheim plot he completely disappears from the game after one brief scene. Nothing about his character is ever explored. Halfway through the game the story does a complete U turn and starts focusing entirely on Ardyn in lieu of the "kingdoms at war" element. What I would've liked to see is a conflict full of political intrigue and perhaps even struggle within Niflheim's inner circle. Have the main characters gather support all over the world and take down the empire first – THEN shift the story towards Ardyn and his secret plot. Something like that.

 

Verstael: I don't even know what to say about his character. Once upon a time he was supposed to be the head of the empire's R&D division, I guess. Most people probably don't even know he exists. The FF Wiki says he's Prompto's father? Who the hell knows.

 

Ravus: He should've been the Darth Vader character, the one that turns to the dark side because of his lust for power and then redeems himself in the end. That's kind of what happens but it's delivered so poorly that once again, you just don't care, because you don't know the character or his inner demons. There should've been much more character development between him and his sister, her trying to convince him to change his mind and him dealing with all this, his dark ambitions and hatred on one side and his love for Luna and the good in him on the other.

 

Lunafreya: Four words – not enough screen time. She's supposed to be the love interest and yet it's never clear how well she and Noctis know each other or how much time they've spent with each other in the past. Noctis doesn't seem particularly interested in the wedding and they only exchange a couple of lines through that diary or whatever (I guess they didn't buy her a smartphone). Her motivation is clear but you never connect with her because, yet again, you simply don't know her well enough. Thus, her "shocking" death is not "earned" and you just go: "Oh, well, I guess that's that." Just remember how much FF VII focused on Aeris; her past, her mother, her dreams and hopes for the future – you develop some feelings for her as a character, and that's when they take her away from you. It's all about the buildup. Luna has none of that.

 

The bros: A likable bunch of characters with recognizable character traits but little to no character development. There was a particularly memorable scene with Prompto on a hotel rooftop that kinda stood out to me – the game needed a LOT more scenes like that for each of your friends or even better: loyalty missions like in Mass Effect. Quests that strengthen the bond between you and your friends and tell you more about their past, their flaws and generally make them seem more like real people. Not to mention, all the stuff from BROTHERHOOD should've been in the game. There's some development with Ignis and Prompto, but it feels too rushed, as almost everything in the second half. Prompto's origin is potentially interesting and perhaps should've been revealed sooner and explored more thoroughly. Gladiolus' character is left largely unexplored, even though they could've had some development with his sister, but no, she just disappears halfway through the game and does nothing at all.

 

And finally my opinion on the ending: Can we please stop with these overly depressing stories where every major character has to die in order to save the world? That's not good writing, that's just laziness. The easy way out. Not to mention, you need a lot more character development than this to earn a proper emotional response. You don't need a massive tragedy to end a story in a compelling way. And if you're hell-bent on sacrificing your characters, don't be a pussy and don't start back-pedaling all of a sudden by leaving the audience with random "happily ever after" scenes from the afterlife, or some pseudo-ethereal nonsense like that.

Edited December 16, 2016 by ShadowReplicant

[Xel]

I have a theory:

I think there was no Ardyn Izunia in the first place, It is all about Noctis and he is the true reincarnation of Lucis Caelum (that is why the King, Noctis father said he will be the last King and that he won't let Noctis become the next king?), he and Stella fighting each other, maybe Stella's fighting him along with Tenebrae and Empire because she want to stop him as he is the evil once for all and failed then she tell Noctis the truth about himself before she died. Ravus (Stella's Brother) then fighting him to revenge for Stella and then later also got BTFO by our evil Prince. In the End our Prince as Lucis Caelum Noctis killed the Emperor and fight to drive the last remnants of Empire invading force away and end up all alone by himself in the Throne room as we have seen in the 2006 trailer.

Of course this was all scrapped, remember when they said Noctis will be the counterpart of Lightning from FFXIII. Noctis was supposed to be this badass anti-hero character. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by Xeliot

[TheAveryChu]

Did anyone else notice that Aranea is effectively wearing the same outfit as Lightning in LR:FFXIII? 

Furthermore, LR had Chaos, XV has the starscourge, or "the darkness". I'm starting to wonder how many of Verses XIII's elements were scrapped from XV and put into Lightning Returns. 

[DEMON]

8 hours ago, Xeliot said:

I have a theory:

I think there was Ardyn Izunia in the first place, It is all about Noctis and he is the true reincarnation of Lucis Caelum (that is why the King, Noctis father said he will be the last King and that he won't let Noctis become the next king?), he and Stella fighting each other, maybe Stella's fighting him along with Tenebrae and Empire because she want to stop him as he is the evil once for all and failed then she tell Noctis the truth about himself before she died. Ravus (Stella's Brother) then fighting him to revenge for Stella and then later also got BTFO by our evil Prince. In the End our Prince as Lucis Caelum Noctis killed the Emperor and fight to drive the last remnants of Empire invading force away and end up all alone by himself in the Throne room as we have seen in the 2006 trailer.

Of course this was all scrapped, remember when they said Noctis will be the counterpart of Lightning from FFXIII. Noctis was supposed to be this badass anti-hero character. 

 

Tbh.. the story of FF Versus XIII and this game were going to be very different. Etro was still a thing in Versus XIII days so we could have had some stupid fal'Cie fuck as the main villain again. Ravus (hooded figure), definitely seemed like he was going to be more important in those days. And I will agree, I liked Stella better than Luna. I can see why they changed their minds about this though since Ardyn had the armiger at the end so that's where that battle ended up. Luna wasn't suited for fighting, all she could do was talk to the gods etc, she had no fighting ability in her or at least there was none evident (in Kingsglaive she just felt like one of those characters that got in the way).

 

Also, I feel as if most of Versus XIII's plot was in the form of Kingsglaive. There was more scenes in it that related to those old trailers (which there wasn't many btw so I have no idea why loads seem to think Versus XIII would have been the better game), the plot of Versus XIII could have been really short too since it was just a part of FFXIII's world with FFXIII being the main deal.

 

I'm honestly glad it became FFXV and not just a spin-off of FFXIII's world. Ardyn was an awesome villain, he definitely was a comeback for the FF villains, there wasn't really anything saying at all Noctis was going to be a villain, because tbh with you, if he was a counterpart of Lightning, wouldn't that mean he be nice? Because Lightning was an absolute bitch for most part. lol

[DEMON]

On 12/12/2016 at 4:50 PM, ShadowReplicant said:

Verstael: I don't even know what to say about his character. Once upon a time he was supposed to be the head of the empire's R&D division, I guess. Most people probably don't even know he exists. The FF Wiki says he's Prompto's father? Who the hell knows.

 

Just read through your post. The wiki maybe says this because it is in the Extras of the Official Collector's Edition Guide Book at the end of it. The guide book actually explains a lot of stuff that wasn't in the game.. I reckon this is stuff we'll maybe find out and in the extra episodes. People aren't just saying Verstael is Prompto's dad out of assumption though. If you ask me, if this is true then it actually puts a bit of purpose in Verstael since that character was honestly a total side one.. I am surprised how he only got 1 cutscene in the entire game and that was him. Even Caligo and Loqi got more content (them being the Team Rocket of FFXV).

[Xel]

FFXV is another victim for the SJW. And dammit! Give me my Versus 13 :'(
 

 

[ShadowReplicant]

12 hours ago, Xeliot said:

FFXV is another victim for the SJW. And dammit! Give me my Versus 13 :'(

 

This just makes me sad. Oh, what could have been...

[TheAveryChu]

19 hours ago, Xeliot said:

FFXV is another victim for the SJW. And dammit! Give me my Versus 13 :'(

 

Could you reference what point the video he talks about this? I'm planning on watching the full thing, but don't have time at the moment. The idea of SJWs messing with my game concerns me. 

[Xel]

4 hours ago, TheAveryChu said:

Could you reference what point the video he talks about this? I'm planning on watching the full thing, but don't have time at the moment. The idea of SJWs messing with my game concerns me. 

 

 

It's about the violent scenes of Luna as a child which got scrapped in the final game. I bet those SJW don't even care about Final Fantasy smh.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Xeliot

[Xel]

Now it all makes sense. That Omen trailer wasn't for FFXV at all. Surprise! Surprise! FFXV-2 could be a thing. The more I read about Versus 13' lore the more theories come to mind.
 

 

[DEMON]

Dunno how FFXV-2 could ever be a thing @Xeliot. Look, Versus XIII is dead, it was never going to come out and was part of the FFXIII series. They finished off this one that there could be no way possible for a sequel.. prequel maybe, but sequel, no.

 

Most of these theories are made by people stuck in the past, I know a load of theory makers were still hellbent on believing it was still part of the Fabula Nova Crystallis even when Square Enix announced that it was no longer part of that. They were just upset their shitty theories were basically all wrong.

[TheAveryChu]

23 hours ago, Xeliot said:

It's about the violent scenes of Luna as a child which got scrapped in the final game. I bet those SJW don't even care about Final Fantasy smh.

 

While its ultimately Square's fault Luna is barely a character in the game, I find it funny that SJWs played a role in one of the few female characters being poorly written. 


P.S

We can argue whether or not Versus XIII will ever be a thing, although what we should be focusing is if we will ever see a Lightning Re-Returns: Final Fantasy XIII-4.

Edited December 19, 2016 by TheAveryChu