Proposition of adjusted trophy calculation

[janzor88]

1 minute ago, DaivRules said:

This site has adapted as things have changed in the world of trophies, it seems that you’re the one objecting to progress and looking to

impede the changes that are already here. The leaderboard here has a specific purpose and to say it’s “just because” is a straw man and is over simplifying reality. 
 

Every elimination to the leaderboard which has always only been “points awarded by Sony’s trophy system” is a niche elimination. Stacks, rarities, publishers, time to completion... each is arbitrary and niche. There will always be another challenge to eliminate another thing and another thing and there will never be consensus because of the arbitrary nature of the custom leaderboards people are looking for. 
 

 

The leaderboards are based on one thing, and one thing only; points.

Publishers, rarities, time to complete etc. are therefore irrelevant.

What are you objections against '1 unique game = 1 set of trophies'?
I see many pros, and can't see any cons in a system like this - which would remove inflation.

[Darling Baphomet]

1 hour ago, Dr_Mayus said:

Listen, the LB is based on the points Sony gave trophies...they all should count. If you want to challenge yourself join some of the groups on this forum. Plat the Ultra Rare Alphabet, shoot for 90% completion, try to plat all the games in a series...AND STOP MAKING THREADS ABOUT A RARITY LEADERBOARD. Like seriously is my EYEPet plat really worth more than my Velocity Ultra plat? 

 

A few obscure ultra rares being weighted unduly heavily is still better than Trackmania Turbo's... 0.6%, 70 hour platinum (that estimate is bullshit) giving you the exact same number of points as My Name is Mayo. If you want to propose a solution for obscurity points, go ahead, but "even if we improve things, we'll still have problems!" is not a very compelling argument against improving things.

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Darling Baphomet

[Dr_Mayus]

20 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

The leaderboards are based on one thing, and one thing only; points.

Publishers, rarities, time to complete etc. are therefore irrelevant.

What are you objections against '1 unique game = 1 set of trophies'?
I see many pros, and can't see any cons in a system like this - which would remove inflation.

But what about games that are the same but different.

 

Like i am playing Danganronpa 1.2 right now. It has a plat but it combines the trophy list of 1 and 2 and eliminates certain trophies. So it is still a stack but different.

 

Rayman Origins on ps3 and vita have slightly different plats but are like 99% the same.

[DaivRules]

9 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

What are you objections against '1 unique game = 1 set of trophies'?
I see many pros, and can't see any cons

All those trophies would have earned their respective points as they were designed to be earned and eliminating any fairly earned points becomes an arbitrary decision that deviates from the design of the leaderboard to be an unbiased points leaderboard. 
 

You have chosen to cultivate a specific path in your trophy hunting and you want to only be compared to people who have met your same subjective experience, and that’s fair. But that should take place elsewhere than the all-points-counted leaderboard here. 

[janzor88]

1 minute ago, Dr_Mayus said:

But what about games that are the same but different.

 

Like i am playing Danganronpa 1.2 right now. It has a plat but it combines the trophy list of 1 and 2 and eliminates certain trophies. So it is still a stack but different.

 

Rayman Origins on ps3 and vita have slightly different plats but are like 99% the same.

 

If game 1 has the same trophy list as game 2, the points should only be counted from one of them.
Like for example Shadow of Mordor on PS4, which I recently played.

There is a normal version, and a GOTY version with all DLC included - but they each have their own platinum, with the exact same trophies.

 

 

1 minute ago, DaivRules said:

All those trophies would have earned their respective points as they were designed to be earned and eliminating any fairly earned points becomes an arbitrary decision that deviates from the design of the leaderboard to be an unbiased points leaderboard. 
 

You have chosen to cultivate a specific path in your trophy hunting and you want to only be compared to people who have met your same subjective experience, and that’s fair. But that should take place elsewhere than the all-points-counted leaderboard here. 

 

I have not chosen anything. What nonsense is this?
I'm starting a discussion about pros and cons. So far you have not written anything constructive.
Write some pros and cons, so I can get enlightened from you, and so we can have a discussion about it instead of some metapohorical talk about the value of all trophies.

Can I not find the current system stupid, and have stacks at the same time?
I am not a hypocrite, and would rather remove the inflation with the "1 unique game = 1 stack" system, than continue incentivize the shovelware industry.

 

You literally cannot reach high rank without continously stacking the 10-60 minute games, because almost everybody does it.

[sepheroithisgod]

2 hours ago, DaivRules said:

I think the most simple way would be for this site to stay the same leaderboard it’s always been (most points) and someone somewhere else can make the arbitrary leaderboards somewhere else. There’s going to have to be several variations to pacify all the niche eliminations once people get started because it’s going to become a slippery slope of eliminating this and that for this and that justification. 

Would it not be possible to create a customizable leaderboard in regards to rarity?

 

For instance, people like to assign multipliers to the rarirty of trophy, which I think is the best way to go about making more respectable leaderboard, for those that care.

 

Sly, or a vote by the community, can decide the core values of the site's main rarity leaderboard, but provide options for people to enter their own info. For example, if we use the OP's suggestion of: 

95-100% : 0,01 - zero value trophy
90-95% : 0,1 - extremely low value trophy
80-90% : 0,2 - very low value trophy
70-80% : 0,4 - low value trophy
60-70% : 0,7 - common value trophy
40-60% : 1 - Normal value trophy
20-40% : 1,5 - relatively high value trophy
10-20% : 2 - high value trophy
5-10% : 5 - very high value trophy
1-5% : 10 - extremely high value trophy
0-1% : 50 - prestige value trophy

 

Add a user input that people can customize the rarity and the values to their liking.

 

The community can then use it to create their own groups that want to compete in. I think it would be a more engaging experience.

The leaderboard on this site has been left in the dust compared to the other sites imo. Filters need to be a thing.

[Dr_Mayus]

45 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

 

If game 1 has the same trophy list as game 2, the points should only be counted from one of them.
Like for example Shadow of Mordor on PS4, which I recently played.

There is a normal version, and a GOTY version with all DLC included - but they each have their own platinum, with the exact same trophies.

 

 

 

I have not chosen anything. What nonsense is this?
I'm starting a discussion about pros and cons. So far you have not written anything constructive.
Write some pros and cons, so I can get enlightened from you, and so we can have a discussion about it instead of some metapohorical talk about the value of all trophies.

Can I not find the current system stupid, and have stacks at the same time?
I am not a hypocrite, and would rather remove the inflation with the "1 unique game = 1 stack" system, than continue incentivize the shovelware industry.

 

You literally cannot reach high rank without continously stacking the 10-60 minute games, because almost everybody does it.

So, just checking. My examples are stacks with different trophy lists. So those would be fine?

1 minute ago, sepheroithisgod said:

Would it not be possible to create a customizable leaderboard in regards to rarity?

 

For instance, people like to assign multipliers to the rarirty of trophy, which I think is the best way to go about making more respectable leaderboard, for those that care.

 

Sly, or a vote by the community, can decide the core values of the site's main rarity leaderboard, but provide options for people to enter their own info. For example, if we use the OP's suggestion of: 

95-100% : 0,01 - zero value trophy
90-95% : 0,1 - extremely low value trophy
80-90% : 0,2 - very low value trophy
70-80% : 0,4 - low value trophy
60-70% : 0,7 - common value trophy
40-60% : 1 - Normal value trophy
20-40% : 1,5 - relatively high value trophy
10-20% : 2 - high value trophy
5-10% : 5 - very high value trophy
1-5% : 10 - extremely high value trophy
0-1% : 50 - prestige value trophy

 

Add a user input that people can customize the rarity and the values to their liking.

 

The community can then use it to create their own groups that want to compete in. I think it would be a more engaging experience.

The leaderboard on this site has been left in the dust compared to the other sites imo. Filters need to be a thing.

But wouldnt someone like hakoom still be on top due to the sheer number of trophies? Even if a bunch are common it is more than most people's ultra rares so they would still be on top.

[sepheroithisgod]

1 minute ago, Dr_Mayus said:

But wouldnt someone like hakoom still be on top due to the sheer number of trophies? Even if a bunch are common it is more than most people's ultra rares so they would still be on top.

I have no doubt that Hakoom or anyone else that dedicates their life to trophy hunting will still remain at the top of the boards, and frankly, as long as they didn't cheat they deserve the position.

 

The point of adding a rarity leader board is to just give people a different way to analyze the data. People are getting annoyed by all of the sub 1 hr plats that can stacked 5 times and the auto-pops from cross save games have definitely had an impact. For instance, things would shake up quite a bit if you made common trophies worth 0 points.

 

That said, just give the community the tools to look at the stats the way they want to.

[janzor88]

14 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

So, just checking. My examples are stacks with different trophy lists. So those would be fine?

 

No, they wouldn't count as it's still the same game, with the exact same trophies - just in another packaging.
You would still unlock all the trophies on your profile, but the points you earned in the game the first time, wouldn't count again.
It's the same thing as with the Shadow of Mordor vs Shadow of Mordor GOTY example. Same game, different packaging.

 

The reason I like this system more than the rarity one, is that this is very simple and that you don't devalue easy games which many people like.

You won't have an "A-team vs B-team" when every platinum is equally weighted once.

[I-Reaped-U]

On 2/1/2021 at 11:38 AM, Lezonidas said:

There is an easier way:

An option to not count common trophies (>50%) and problem solved. All the easy trophies and platinums are gone.

That is some elitist bs. 

[sepheroithisgod]

3 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

 

No, they wouldn't count as it's still the same game, with the exact same trophies - just in another packaging.
You would still unlock all the trophies on your profile, but the points you earned in the game the first time, wouldn't count again.
It's the same thing as with the Shadow of Mordor vs Shadow of Mordor GOTY example. Same game, different packaging.

 

The reason I like this system more than the rarity one, is that this is very simple and that you don't devalue easy games which many people like.

You won't have an "A-team vs B-team" when every platinum is equally weighted once.

I think your missing what he is saying.

 

Take a look at these lists:

Call of Duty: Black Ops III Trophies • PSNProfiles.com

Call of Duty: Black Ops III Trophies • PSNProfiles.com

 

They are the same game, but have a unique trophy list. For instance the PS3 version doesn't contain the single player and focuses on the multiplayer. There are more than a few games in this situation.

[janzor88]

1 minute ago, sepheroithisgod said:

I think your missing what he is saying.

 

Take a look at these lists:

Call of Duty: Black Ops III Trophies • PSNProfiles.com

Call of Duty: Black Ops III Trophies • PSNProfiles.com

 

They are the same game, but have a unique trophy list. For instance the PS3 version doesn't contain the single player and focuses on the multiplayer. There are more than a few games in this situation.

 

He mentioned Danganronpa 1/2 which is what I'm replying to.

[janzor88]

As for the CoD: Black Ops III and other unique games with different trophy stacks:

 

Games are already categorized on this site.
You can see an example for the Call of Duty series here.

 

On top of that, you just add that the points can only be added once per unique trophy.

Which means that you would get many points in both versions of Black Ops III for example, but the "Awakening DLC" would just count once as they are identical in both games.

[Dr_Mayus]

25 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

 

No, they wouldn't count as it's still the same game, with the exact same trophies - just in another packaging.
You would still unlock all the trophies on your profile, but the points you earned in the game the first time, wouldn't count again.
It's the same thing as with the Shadow of Mordor vs Shadow of Mordor GOTY example. Same game, different packaging.

 

The reason I like this system more than the rarity one, is that this is very simple and that you don't devalue easy games which many people like.

You won't have an "A-team vs B-team" when every platinum is equally weighted once.

But the lists are different. The vita rayman has more trophies than the ps3 game and both games play differently.

 

In the danganronpa example it is literally a combination of different trophies from both games (2 plats into 1)

 

So how are you supposed to build a formula to take into account all these different lists?

 

Minecraft ps3 has a different list than minecraft ps4. Also Rocket bird, plants vs zombies, back to the future and disgaia 3 also have different lists from system to system.

 

Those are just examples from my trophy list. That is a lot of work to eliminate rightfully earned trophies.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Dr_Mayus

[janzor88]

1 minute ago, Dr_Mayus said:

But the lists are different. The vita rayman has more trophies than the ps3 game and both games play differently.

 

In the danganronpa example it is literally a combination of different trophies from both games (2 plats into 1)

 

So how are you supposed to build a formula to take into account all these different lists?

 

Minecraft ps3 has a different list than minecraft ps4.

 

Rocket bird, plants vs zombies, back to the future and disgaia 3 also have different lists from system to system.

 

Those are just examples from my trophy list.

 

I explained it seconds before you posted this.
Check the post above your original post

 

I just skimmed Danganronpa 1/2 fast, and it looked like the game had identical trophies and pictures from the two original games.
They were just packaged together this time.

But my post above should explain it.

[Dr_Mayus]

11 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

 

I explained it seconds before you posted this.
Check the post above your original post

 

I just skimmed Danganronpa 1/2 fast, and it looked like the game had identical trophies and pictures from the two original games.
They were just packaged together this time.

But my post above should explain it.

Same but different. Not all the trophies from 1 and 2 made it into 1.2. 

 

That is what i have been saying, when i plat 1.2 i will have earned a 3rd platinum and it isnt a 30 minute plat so why shouldn't it count?

 

I would also say platting both rayman origins was tougher than start the party or eyepet but both of those are ultra rares? So i only get credit for 1 rayman game?

 

If you were able to plat MK9 on both vita and ps3 shouldnt you get more credit?

 

This is what happens when you open this can of worms. Everyone will have a different opinion on what counts. As mentioned create a forum group where like minded people get together and agree to your set of rules. Back on .COM we all had a bunch of groups where you could meet and chat with people of similar interests. It is a shame that site was so mismanaged (ironically after Sly left it) and it went under becuase the communtity was one of the best.

 

There is an ultra rare hunting group already...if you arent already a part of that then join up. You will have a lot more fun than hoping a leader board eventually comes where you see that you are still somewhere in the middle. 

 

Edit - or try to plat the Ultra Rare Alphabet. That is an extreme challenge and will get you more respect than a Rarity Leader Board.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Dr_Mayus

[janzor88]

2 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

Same but different. Not all the trophies from 1 and 2 made it into 1.2. 

 

That is what i have been saying, when i plat 1.2 i will have earned a 3rd platinum and it isnt a 30 minute plat so why shouldn't it count?

 

I would also say platting both rayman origins was tougher than start the party or eyepet but both of those are ultra rares? So i only get credit for 1 rayman game?

 

If you were able to plat MK9 on both vita and ps3 shouldnt you get more credit?

 

This is what happens when you open this can of worms. Everyone will have a different opinion on what counts. As mentioned create a forum group where like minded people get together and agree to your set of rules. Back on .COM we all had a bunch of groups where you could meet and chat with people of similar interests. It is a shame that site was so mismanaged (ironically after Sly left it) and it went under becuase the communtity was one of the best.

 

There is an ultra rare hunting group already...if you arent already a part of that then join up. You will have a lot more fun than hoping a leader board eventually comes where you see that you are still somewhere in the middle. 

 

It has nothing to do with elitist groups, or ultra rare trophies.
I'm literally saying that every platinum should have equal value not to divide the community, but every unique game should only count once.
It has nothing to do with difficulty, as difficulty is subjective. It has something to do with a solution on how to remove inflation on the leaderboards with the 4-7 stacks of the same game, autopopping multiple platinums on different systems without playing the game etc. etc.

[Dr_Mayus]

8 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

 

It has nothing to do with elitist groups, or ultra rare trophies.
I'm literally saying that every platinum should have equal value not to divide the community, but every unique game should only count once.
It has nothing to do with difficulty, as difficulty is subjective. It has something to do with a solution on how to remove inflation on the leaderboards with the 4-7 stacks of the same game, autopopping multiple platinums on different systems without playing the game etc. etc.

I dont know, if i platted star ocean 4 three times and you tell me it only counts once i would be pretty pissed.

 

I get you dont like autopops but by removing those you are also hurting gamers that put a lot of time and effort with platting a game more than once.

 

As mentioned you wont ever find something that works for everyone so that is why creating a group of your own is the best solution. You can find 4 or 5 people with similar ideas as you and grow as a group

 

That is what the old Seatk group was about.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Dr_Mayus

[janzor88]

3 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

I dont know, if i platted star ocean 4 three times and you tell me it only counts once i would be pretty pissed.

 

I get you dont like autopops but by removing those you are also hurting gamers that put a lot of time and effort with platting a game more than once.

 

As mentioned you wont ever find something that works for everyone so that is why creating a group of your own is the best solution. You can find 4 or 5 people with similar ideas as you and grow as a group

 

That is what the old Seatk group was about.

 

What has this system brought us the last years?

1) Game quantity is more important than game quality right now.

This site is tracking 4,8 million profiles which clearly is enough incentivize for companies to keep spitting out their shovelware nonstop.
Game quality is secondary when developing these games, as they sell nomatter what - as long as you get multiple stacks and short completion time.
A big amount of people would stop buying platinum shovelware if it only counted once, hence forcing developers to improve their product beyond "free platinums".

 

2) People would have better experiences when playing games.

Most people have huge backlogs, and finish multiple versions of the games just to advance on the leaderboards.
If they have the old original game, or a remastered PS4/PS5 version, which version do you think people would play? The newest and best version of the game most likely, instead of being stuck with bad ports or outdated graphics/controls/camera.

 

3) Inflated leaderboards would be corrected.

The leaderboards have been utterfly useless since platinum shovelware started spreading.
Right now money determines how many stacks you can get, but does it need to be this way if only one game counts? PS3/PS4/PS5/Vita + different regions makes this a complete mess. The more systems you own, the more points you will get for autopopping games you havent even played.

 

I really can't see your "cons", as they just seem emotional since you invested some time in trophies which you have affection for.
I haven't seen logical arguments against this, only emotional so far.

[Property_Damage]

What was .org’s old slogan again?

 

oh yeah, now i remember...every trophy counts!

[Dr_Mayus]

10 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

 

What has this system brought us the last years?

1) Game quantity is more important than game quality right now.

This site is tracking 4,8 million profiles which clearly is enough incentivize for companies to keep spitting out their shovelware nonstop.
Game quality is secondary when developing these games, as they sell nomatter what - as long as you get multiple stacks and short completion time.
A big amount of people would stop buying platinum shovelware if it only counted once, hence forcing developers to improve their product beyond "free platinums".

 

2) People would have better experiences when playing games.

Most people have huge backlogs, and finish multiple versions of the games just to advance on the leaderboards.
If they have the old original game, or a remastered PS4/PS5 version, which version do you think people would play? The newest and best version of the game most likely, instead of being stuck with bad ports or outdated graphics/controls/camera.

 

3) Inflated leaderboards would be corrected.

The leaderboards have been utterfly useless since platinum shovelware started spreading.
Right now money determines how many stacks you can get, but does it need to be this way if only one game counts? PS3/PS4/PS5/Vita + different regions makes this a complete mess. The more systems you own, the more points you will get for autopopping games you havent even played.

 

I really can't see your "cons", as they just seem emotional since you invested some time in trophies which you have affection for.
I haven't seen logical arguments against this, only emotional so far.

What emotions? You are the one saying only certain games should count. Why? If i like Ratchet and want to play all versions then those trophies should count. I have 316 plats and only 3 games are autopops (sly 4 and soundshapes twice) but I do have many multi plats...that I earned twice.

 

I dont understand your logic in not having certain games count. Imagine if a football team wins the superbowl twice in a row with the exact same team against the exact same team...should only one of those wins count? No, because despite both teams/players being the same they won twice.

 

I have given numerous examples of things you can do to make your idea come true but instead of finding people with similar tastes as you you want the site to pour resources into something no one can agree on.

 

That is why i mentioned Seatk. The group had less than 10 people because we all had similar goals...so you can start a group like that and then you can actually meet and get to know some new people instead of just seeing your name on a leaderboard.

 

 

In the end I actually dont care. I never use the leaderboard as i challenge myself with my own goals. So you say i have emotional responses but seriously if the leaderboard changed tomorrow I wouldnt know until i saw a status update complaining about it.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Dr_Mayus

[janzor88]

 

3 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

What emotions?

 

29 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

I dont know, if i platted star ocean 4 three times and you tell me it only counts once i would be pretty pissed.

 

Beeing pretty pissed is an emotion.

 

3 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

You are the one saying only certain games should count. Why? If i like Ratchet and want to play all versions then those trophies should count. I have 316 plats and only 3 games are autopops (sly 4 and soundshapes twice) but I do have many multi plats...that I earned twice.

 

I dont understand your logic in not having certain games count. Imagine if a football team wins the superbowl twice in a row with the exact same team against the exact same team...should only one of those wins count? No, because despite both teams/players being the same they won twice.

 

 

 

I literally just explained why only one unique game should count. You haven't responed to anything in that post. Just anwered with a why? - Nice effort.

Your example about the football team makes no sense.
If you want to stay in the trophy analogy, then imagine a football team winning the superbowl 7 years in a row. They just played the first year, and automatically win next 6 years also without playing, just because they won once.

[Dr_Mayus]

15 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

 

 

 

Beeing pretty pissed is an emotion.

 

 

I literally just explained why only one unique game should count. You haven't responed to anything in that post. Just anwered with a why? - Nice effort.

Your example about the football team makes no sense.
If you want to stay in the trophy analogy, then imagine a football team winning the superbowl 7 years in a row. They just played the first year, and automatically win next 6 years also without playing, just because they won once.

Whatever, i really don't care.

 

Listen you have two options.

 

Either keep waiting for a leaderboard that will never come (as there have been multiple threads like this one and no one can agree on what should be on it).

 

Or create a group of like minded trophy hunters...make some new friends...and have fun playing games.

 

I will keep playing games and having fun. If you would like you can keep waiting for a leaderboard so you can see your name on a list surrounded by people you don't know.

[janzor88]

Just now, Dr_Mayus said:

Whatever, i really don't care.

 

Listen you have two options.

 

Either keep waiting for a leaderboard that will never come (as there have been multiple threads like this one and no one can agree on what should be on it).

 

Or create a group of like minded trophy hunters...make some new friends...and have fun playing games.

 

I will keep playing games and having fun. If you would like you can keep waiting for a leaderboard so you can see your name on a list surrounded by people you don't know.

I'll take a third option: start a dialogue, and make an effort to improve things.

But whatever floats your boat.

[Darling Baphomet]

3 hours ago, Dr_Mayus said:

So, just checking. My examples are stacks with different trophy lists. So those would be fine?

But wouldnt someone like hakoom still be on top due to the sheer number of trophies? Even if a bunch are common it is more than most people's ultra rares so they would still be on top.

 

Not necessarily, if you go with, say, the TrueTrophies formula, an ultra rare trophy list can be worth 10+ times as much as an easy platinum. But one problem with TrueTrophies' formula is that the sheer easiness of Rata games means that if you have enough Rata games to spam indefinitely, you can easily plat 10 Ratas in the time it takes for 1 ultra rare. You'd probably need to adjust the formula so that common platinums get a penalty, or have an arbitrary cut off point where games above that point are simply not counted.

 

Ultimately they're all going to have holes, but at the very least you can give traditional platinum hunters the chance to compete against Rata spammers.