How is this possible? ("Legendary" trophy rarity)

[baboon_overlord]

I just finished the tedious grind to get to Level 50, wasted several minutes trying to figure out the right menu to be able to prestige to get the "Legendary" trophy (it's in the Multiplayer menu when you press pause, not the Outfitter menu, as one guide stated), synched trophies and checked on here and....wait, what?

 

How can the "How the West was Won" trophy have a rarity of 7.51% but the "Legendary" trophy have a rarity of 14.4% - almost double? Unless I'm being really dense, surely you need to be Level 50 first to prestige?

 

Due to "Legendary" being DLC, I wouldn't have been surprised if that trophy was an ultra rare.

 

Was it glitched (in a "good way") in the past? How is this even possible?

 

Edit: "How the West was Won" is 1.9% UR on PSN, "Legendary" is 1.1% UR, which is what I would expect. Therefore I would have thought "Legendary" should be about a 4% - 4.5% UR by the standards of this site.   

Edited September 30, 2022 by baboon_overlord

[DrBloodmoney]

DLC rarities don’t work on this site.

If you look, for example, at the Dead Cells Trophies, the trophy for beating a boss of an area is more “common” than the trophy for reaching that area…

…and that one is more “common” than the one for reaching the area before it.

 

You need to use other sites for rarities of DLCs, unfortunately.

 

[baboon_overlord]

36 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

DLC rarities don’t work on this site.

If you look, for example, at the Dead Cells Trophies, the trophy for beating a boss of an area is more “common” than the trophy for reaching that area…

…and that one is more “common” than the one for reaching the area before it.

 

You need to use other sites for rarities of DLCs, unfortunately.

 

Hi Dr., thank you for the reply I appreciate it.

 

Things like this genuinely interest me, I like a good anomaly/mystery, which is why I made the post.

 

Do you know why this happens on this site? I'm an IT guy and can't think of any good reason for it from a technical point of view.

 

I would have thought that DLC rarity would apply to all game owners in the same way as completion % does. For example, I had 100% for Ghost of Tsushima, then DLC got released and now I'm at a miserable 64%. ?

 

So if I'm inferring correctly, you are saying that DLC trophy rarity % applies to everyone who played the DLC on this site, not base-game owners, is that correct?

Edited September 30, 2022 by baboon_overlord

[DrBloodmoney]

Just now, baboon_overlord said:

Hi Dr., thank you for the reply I appreciate it.

 

Things like this genuinely interest me, I like a good anomaly/mystery, which is why I made the post.

 

Do you know why this happens on this site? I'm an IT guy and can't think of any good reason for it from a technical point of view.

 

I would have thought that DLC rarity would apply to all game owners in the same way as completion % does. For example, I had 100% for Ghost of Tsushima, then DLC got released and now I'm at a miserable 64%.

 

So if I'm inferring correctly, you are saying that DLC % applies to everyone who played the DLC on this site, not game owners, is that correct?

Actually no… it’s more bizarre than that.

 

Originally, DLCs were based on owners of the game (as you’d expect)… but some of the site users who were more frugal (or non-completionist) complained endlessly that using the actual rarities made DLCs  “too rare” and that their own UR counts were not competing with people who did the full S-Ranks.

 

So then, DLC rarity was changed, to use only owners of that specific DLC…

…but that created weird situations where DLCs with only 1 trophy could be rare as fuck in reality… but since you had to achieve at least one of them to count as an owner, they would always be at 100%… since only people who achieved it counted as an owner.

 

 

As a result, rather than going back to the real rarities (based on game owners) they started using a formula.

 

The rarities of DLCs are now calculated as the Geometric Mean of DLC owners and Game Owners.

 

Why?
Because in a few examples they tested…the results they got “felt right.”

(This is all essentially because people wanted to use rarity as a measure of difficulty, which - of course - is silly, and doesn’t work, since one is objective maths, and one is subjective opinion.)

 

 

As such, the values you see on DLC rarity now  have no basis in reality, and actually represent nothing.
They only exist to give the appearance of a value to people who mistake rarity as a measure of difficulty…

…but - as you can see in your example - they don’t even do that very well! ?

[AllieWalton66]

Take rarity on this site with a grain of salt. 

Maybe some people haven't synched properly for whatever reason. 

And of course you have hackers who mess it up and pop one trophy but not the other (most hackers don't seem to be very good at it). Who knows.

[AJ_Radio]

This is why hunting specifically for ultra rare trophies is a big waste of fucking time.

[baboon_overlord]

5 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Actually no… it’s more bizarre than that.

 

Originally, DLCs were based on owners of the game (as you’d expect)… but some of the site users who were more frugal (or non-completionist) complained endlessly that using the actual rarities made DLCs  “too rare” and that their own UR counts were not competing with people who did the full S-Ranks.

 

So then, DLC rarity was changed, to use only owners of that specific DLC…

…but that created weird situations where DLCs with only 1 trophy could be rare as fuck in reality… but since you had to achieve at least one of them to count as an owner, they would always be at 100%… since only people who achieved it counted as an owner.

 

 

As a result, rather than going back to the real rarities (based on game owners) they started using a formula.

 

The rarities of DLCs are now calculated as the Geometric Mean of DLC owners and Game Owners.

 

Why?
Because in a few examples they tested…the results they got “felt right.”

(This is all essentially because people wanted to use rarity as a measure of difficulty, which - of course - is silly, and doesn’t work, since one is objective maths, and one is subjective opinion.)

 

 

As such, the values you see on DLC rarity now  have no basis in reality, and actually represent nothing.
They only exist to give the appearance of a value to people who mistake rarity as a measure of difficulty…

…but - as you can see in your example - they don’t even do that very well! ?

What a fantastic answer, thank you very much. PSN Profile Deep Lore AND a very interesting mathematical determination all in one post. Impressive.

 

I've never heard of Geometric Mean before. I design trading systems for financial markets and have developed some ridiculously complicated systems that use a lot of calculus, but I'm not a mathematician by any stretch of the imagination. I think I'll look into this as my next project. ?

 

I must admit, I do use "another site" and was getting confused. I finished the DLC for Ghost Recon Future Soldier today - the story trophies on this site are rares but on that site (which I assume must not be named) I was getting ultra rares, for example getting a 2% UR just for finishing the first mission. 

 

I can see that DLC is a tough one potentially, but ultimately, the % should be based on game owners, it's the only fair way to do it. You are never going to please everyone but if the completionists get angry when DLC comes out for a game they previously 100%d then that should apply equally to the rarity hunters as well. In fact, it gives rarity hunters more opportunities to get what they want, "I can't afford DLC" isn't an argument. I'm a mountaineer. I can't afford to climb Everest right now. That isn't the problem of people who can, right?

 

Interested to hear your thoughts on how you would fix this "fairly" as well.

 

Thanks again.

[AllieWalton66]

Just now, AJ_Radio said:

This is why hunting specifically for ultra rare trophies is a big waste of fucking time.

I dunno man I'm pretty happy with my Far Cry 2 plat.

[baboon_overlord]

10 minutes ago, BennyWalton66 said:

(most hackers don't seem to be very good at it)

LOL! I've reported a few cheaters on here in the past and you are 100% correct.

2 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

This is why hunting specifically for ultra rare trophies is a big waste of fucking time.

I totally understand what you mean. I've been working on my UR and VR trophies  this year but honestly, almost all the games I really want to play have VR Plats at best. Outside of obscure games, multiplayer games/games with multiplayer and games that just plain suck, it's hard to find things I'm genuinely interested in.

[AllieWalton66]

1 minute ago, baboon_overlord said:

LOL! I've reported a few cheaters on here in the past and you are 100% correct.

Thankfully we get most of them but I'm sure a few get by here and there. So there's that to consider.

[baboon_overlord]

4 minutes ago, BennyWalton66 said:

I dunno man I'm pretty happy with my Far Cry 2 plat.

I would be too, my friend was telling me about that - you deserve a medal not a trophy!

[DrBloodmoney]

Just now, baboon_overlord said:

What a fantastic answer, thank you very much. PSN Profile Deep Lore AND a very interesting mathematical determination all in one post. Impressive.

 

I've never heard of Geometric Mean before. I design trading systems for financial markets and have developed some ridiculously complicated systems that use a lot of calculus, but I'm not a mathematician by any stretch of the imagination. I think I'll look into this as my next project.

 

I must admit, I do use "another site" and was getting confused. I finished the DLC for Ghost Recon Future Soldier today - the story trophies on this site are rares but on that site (which I assume must not be named) I was getting ultra rares, for example getting a 2% UR just for finishing the first mission. 

 

I can see that DLC is a tough one potentially, but ultimately, the % should be based on game owners, it's the only fair way to do it. You are never going to please everyone but if the completionists get angry when DLC comes out for a game they previously 100%d then that should apply equally to the rarity hunters as well. In fact, it gives rarity hunters more opportunities to get what they want, "I can't afford DLC" isn't an argument. I'm a mountaineer. I can't afford to climb Everest right now. That isn't the problem of people who can, right?

 

Interested to hear your thoughts on how you would fix this "fairly" as well.

 

Thanks again.

no probs - yeah, it’s been argued and debated many times, and is unlikely to change now.

 

Personally, I’d be all for just using Game Owners - after all, all other metrics on the site (S-Ranks, completion percentage etc) all consider DLC to be an intrinsic part of a game, so I don’t really see why rarity would be any different…

…but that argument has never really gotten anywhere, and all debate tends to either get circular very quickly, or just fade away, as the site isn’t getting updates much anymore.

 

 

In the end, it’s a silly thing, but not massively debilitating… getting an S-Rank is still a good feeing, even if the rarities on the DLCs can feel a bit anaemic at times! ?

[AJ_Radio]

1 minute ago, BennyWalton66 said:

I dunno man I'm pretty happy with my Far Cry 2 plat.

Rarity is entirely subjective. Lovers in a Dangerous Spacetime is a very easy ultra rare.
 

Meanwhile Dark Souls Remastered is in the upper 20 percents in terms of platinum rarity, but can be anywhere from 5/10 to 8/10 in difficulty. Depends on how long it takes you to overcome its difficulty curve, the fact that Dark Souls just throws you out into the open without much help, and the amount of co-op multiplayer you do for the boss fights. 
 

There are plenty of easy ultra rare trophies, many from incredibly niche games that nobody really plays outside of a very select group of people, who are probably just playing them to increase their ultra rare count. 

[DrBloodmoney]

1 minute ago, AJ_Radio said:

Rarity is entirely subjective.

No, difficulty is subjective.

 

Rarity is (or at least should be) maths.

[AJ_Radio]

2 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

No, difficulty is subjective.

 

Rarity is (or at least should be) maths.

@totallycrushed was right about you. 

[baboon_overlord]

1 minute ago, DrBloodmoney said:

In the end, it’s a silly thing, but not massively debilitating… getting an S-Rank is still a good feeing, even if the rarities on the DLCs can feel a bit anaemic at times! 

I agree with you but I am going to stick my oar on now!

 

I do feel like that you should get some kind of recognition for 100%ing a game on this site. I've got quite a few "UR 100%s" on this site and it seems a bit pants that you just get a green percentage next to the game. For the leaderboards I almost feel that you deserve something extra for that, especially as, when you are working hard on hard games, you slide down the leaderboards while people get 99 cent instaplats (which I am of course guilty of as well) rise above you.

 

I kind of feel like you should be able to add a 100%ed game to your trophy cabinet if it has DLC, but I'm sure it will never happen.

 

 

[AllieWalton66]

4 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

Rarity is entirely subjective. Lovers in a Dangerous Spacetime is a very easy ultra rare.
 

Meanwhile Dark Souls Remastered is in the upper 20 percents in terms of platinum rarity, but can be anywhere from 5/10 to 8/10 in difficulty. Depends on how long it takes you to overcome its difficulty curve, the fact that Dark Souls just throws you out into the open without much help, and the amount of co-op multiplayer you do for the boss fights. 
 

There are plenty of easy ultra rare trophies, many from incredibly niche games that nobody really plays outside of a very select group of people, who are probably just playing them to increase their ultra rare count. 

And the problem with increasing ones ultra rare count is what exactly?

1 minute ago, baboon_overlord said:

I agree with you but I am going to stick my oar on now!

 

I do feel like that you should get some kind of recognition for 100%ing a game on this site. I've got quite a few "UR 100%s" on this site and it seems a bit pants that you just get a green percentage next to the game. For the leaderboards I almost feel that you deserve something extra for that, especially as, when you are working hard on hard games, you slide down the leaderboards while people get 99 cent instaplats (which I am of course guilty of as well) rise above you.

 

I kind of feel like you should be able to add a 100%ed game to your trophy cabinet if it has DLC, but I'm sure it will never happen.

 

 

I think the cabinet should be expanded a bit in general. There's way more then 10 trophies I'd put there.

[HaserPL]

Plus I know for a fact, there used to be a way to cheat that trophy for gaining prestige by simply copying a save file. My friend did it, to unlock best stuff in the game coz he absolutely wanted to ride on a bison or something, and he got that trophy, I'm not sure if he got the one for getting rank 50 though.

[baboon_overlord]

5 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

No, difficulty is subjective.

 

Rarity is (or at least should be) maths.

Correct.
 

I suck at platform games in general. FPSers make me feel sick and I am guessing VR is going to be impossible for me. Other people might find games of this type a 0/10 difficulty.

 

Rarity should just be: people who completed / number of game owners * 100

[DrBloodmoney]

1 minute ago, baboon_overlord said:

I agree with you but I am going to stick my oar on now!

 

I do feel like that you should get some kind of recognition for 100%ing a game on this site. I've got quite a few "UR 100%s" on this site and it seems a bit pants that you just get a green percentage next to the game. For the leaderboards I almost feel that you deserve something extra for that, especially as, when you are working hard on hard games, you slide down the leaderboards while people get 99 cent instaplats (which I am of course guilty of as well) rise above you.

 

I kind of feel like you should be able to add a 100%ed game to your trophy cabinet if it has DLC, but I'm sure it will never happen.

Oh, for sure - I’m riding that waterslide that is the Leaderboard all the way down at breakneck speeds now ?

 

I can’t get too upset about it - it is what it is, and it’s the cost of doing business since I don’t go for the instaplats…

 

…but for sure, sometimes when you’re plugging away on a non-plat game for ages, and you finally get that sweet S-Rank, and then see the reward you get is dropping 50 spots on the boards - it can be a bit of an eye-opener! ?

[AJ_Radio]

1 minute ago, BennyWalton66 said:

And the problem with increasing ones ultra rare count is what exactly?

You shouldn’t take these trophies at face value. Far Cry 2 is difficult on top of being time consuming, so it actually deserves its sub 1 percent platinum rarity. 
 

Trophies can decrease or in some cases increase when a game is on PS Plus for a month. It’s a free game for a month that thousands of people play which can greatly affect the trophy statistics. 
 

I don’t have many ultra rares and I’m fine with that. 

[Guest]

Because the rarity system on this site is an absolute joke and wrongly sums up DLc owners. You need to earn 1 DLC trophy to be considered an owner, and this devastates the rarity of many packs, for example I have both SPELUNKER HD Stacks at 100% and they have no UR, or Capcom Arcade Cabinet which should have way more URs 

[AllieWalton66]

Just now, HaserPL said:

Plus I know for a fact, there used to be a way to cheat that trophy for gaining prestige by simply copying a save file. My friend did it, to unlock best stuff in the game coz he absolutely wanted to ride on a bison or something, and he got that trophy, I'm not sure if he got the one for getting rank 50 though.

Pretty sure that would be classed on the same level as hacking.

[DrBloodmoney]

8 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

@totallycrushed was right about you. 

Okay?

 

I don’t know who that is… but I’ll just say they probably were ?

[AllieWalton66]

1 minute ago, AJ_Radio said:

You shouldn’t take these trophies at face value. Far Cry 2 is difficult on top of being time consuming, so it actually deserves its sub 1 percent platinum rarity. 
 

Trophies can decrease or in some cases increase when a game is on PS Plus for a month. It’s a free game for a month that thousands of people play which can greatly affect the trophy statistics. 
 

I don’t have many ultra rares and I’m fine with that. 

I mean cool for you dude but don't rag on people who "just want to increase their ultra rare count". People can do what they want save for hacking.