The Future Of Consoles!

[LordHiroRose]

I read an interesting article on Yahoo the other day about the supposed future of the gaming world. We are now in a digital age, an age that is filled with controversies over DLC and piracy of games. While I am almost certain none of those things will stop anytime soon, it worries me to know what kinds of things companies are doing to prevent/cover them up from happening.

The article I read talks about how the next generation of consoles will block certain features of pre-owned games. Would something like that be legal? Could you guys imagine the damage it could do to certain businesses? I for one would be interested in seeing how the gaming community would be affected by such a thing.

I wonder if companies who profit off of used games will fight back if this does indeed happen one day. What about the gamers who loan games to their buddies? What about the original owner of the game? What is going to happen if our console breaks down and we need to purchase a new one? Will we need to buy some kind of access code to unlock all of the features we had when we first purchased the game? I hope not.

This is the link to the article of you guys are interested in reading it.

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/hello-brave-world-console-gaming-003839870.html

Please give me back some feedback, guys. I would really like to see how people feel about this.

[Chambers35]

I've seen a few things about this, but I also saw something with someone from Sony saying that they aren't doing this at all, I'll try and find the article but I have no idea where I saw it.

[LordHiroRose]

I've seen a few things about this, but I also saw something with someone from Sony saying that they aren't doing this at all, I'll try and find the article but I have no idea where I saw it.

I hope you are right, buddy. Just the very idea of this happening is a little scary. I know my mind would be at ease if you find it, so please let me know. :3 Even though you may be correct, what would your thoughts be if this situation was real?

[Chambers35]

I hope you are right, buddy. Just the very idea of this happening is a little scary. I know my mind would be at ease if you find it, so please let me know. :3 Even though you may be correct, what would your thoughts be if this situation was real?

I've been looking but nothing so far

I'd be pissed off! I rent a lot of games, I mean why would I pay £40 for a game I can complete in a day or two? Not a chance. I buy games I know will last me a while and I'm going to love.

[LordHiroRose]

I've been looking but nothing so far

I'd be pissed off! I rent a lot of games, I mean why would I pay £40 for a game I can complete in a day or two? Not a chance. I buy games I know will last me a while and I'm going to love.

That is a good point. I hope the companies that make video games are taking note of all of this. I am pretty sure the market would suffer greatly if consoles decided to block all used games.

[SitusKiss]

I honestly can't imagine this ever coming to fruition. There would be many large companies that would suffer in a major way to lose that side of their business.

GameStop, GameFly, and Blockbuster to name a few.

Personally, I think it almost defeats the purpose to crack down on it as it will probably end up leading to many more jailbroken devices and even more piracy.

[Chambers35]

That is a good point. I hope the companies that make video games are taking note of all of this. I am pretty sure the market would suffer greatly if consoles decided to block all used games.

I don't actually think the developers/producers of games get money for used games, so it does make sense to do it from a financial point of view. It just sucks BIG TIME for the consumer, there are people who can't afford to buy brand new games.

[acasser]

I honestly can't imagine this ever coming to fruition. There would be many large companies that would suffer in a major way to lose that side of their business.

GameStop, GameFly, and Blockbuster to name a few.

Personally, I think it almost defeats the purpose to crack down on it as it will probably end up leading to many more jailbroken devices and even more piracy.

The company that manufactures the console does not have the viability of a company that sells/rents games as one of their primary concerns. Sony doesn't give a damn if GameFly goes out of business.

Heck, the companies that design/manufacture games probably doesn't really care about the viability of the GameStops of the world, either. I imagine many of them would be quite happy to go 100% digital -- there's no used market to undercut your sales, plus manufacturing/shipping/storage costs are much smaller.

As far as jailbreaking/piracy, I'm sure it's going on now. I don't forsee a massive increase in the same if there's no physical copy anymore, because I imagine that most people don't have the time/energy/skills to really make it work for them. Also, keep in mind that the manufacturers don't just have to sit there and accept the losses -- they can continually tweak the software to stay ahead of every successful attempt to get around the "new system".

The GameStops of the world won't like it, but that's progress for you. Industries change and grow and die all the time, as technology changes and human interests change. The automobile led to the end of the horse-and-buggy. Digital cameras led to the end of the photograph development business -- I recall a day in the not-too-distant past when every CVS/Wal-Mart/K-Mart/Walgreens/etc. had a one-hour photo development center, when most high schools had a Photography club complete with darkroom, et cetera. Either you evolve (as Eastman Kodak did) or you die.

It just sucks BIG TIME for the consumer, there are people who can't afford to buy brand new games.

Not another whiny cry about how this isn't fair for the consumer. Nobody is entitled to video games -- it's a privilege and not a right.

If you can't afford video games, find a cheaper hobby. Or make friends with someone who can afford them. Or pool your resources with someone else and share.

[Chambers35]

Not another whiny cry about how this isn't fair for the consumer. Nobody is entitled to video games -- it's a privilege and not a right.

If you can't afford video games, find a cheaper hobby. Or make friends with someone who can afford them. Or pool your resources with someone else and share.

So you think that because someone can't afford to pay full price for something they shouldn't have it? Let's have a think about that one...

[LordHiroRose]

I honestly can't imagine this ever coming to fruition. There would be many large companies that would suffer in a major way to lose that side of their business.

GameStop, GameFly, and Blockbuster to name a few.

Personally, I think it almost defeats the purpose to crack down on it as it will probably end up leading to many more jailbroken devices and even more piracy.

That makes sense. It is kind of ironic when you think about it.

I don't actually think the developers/producers of games get money for used games, so it does make sense to do it from a financial point of view. It just sucks BIG TIME for the consumer, there are people who can't afford to buy brand new games.

I never thought of it like that. I do kind of feel bad for them, but pre-owned games are a blessing.

The company that manufactures the console does not have the viability of a company that sells/rents games as one of their primary concerns. Sony doesn't give a damn if GameFly goes out of business.

Heck, the companies that design/manufacture games probably doesn't really care about the viability of the GameStops of the world, either. I imagine many of them would be quite happy to go 100% digital -- there's no used market to undercut your sales, plus manufacturing/shipping/storage costs are much smaller.

As far as jailbreaking/piracy, I'm sure it's going on now. I don't forsee a massive increase in the same if there's no physical copy anymore, because I imagine that most people don't have the time/energy/skills to really make it work for them. Also, keep in mind that the manufacturers don't just have to sit there and accept the losses -- they can continually tweak the software to stay ahead of every successful attempt to get around the "new system".

The GameStops of the world won't like it, but that's progress for you. Industries change and grow and die all the time, as technology changes and human interests change. The automobile led to the end of the horse-and-buggy. Digital cameras led to the end of the photograph development business -- I recall a day in the not-too-distant past when every CVS/Wal-Mart/K-Mart/Walgreens/etc. had a one-hour photo development center, when most high schools had a Photography club complete with darkroom, et cetera. Either you evolve (as Eastman Kodak did) or you die.

Not another whiny cry about how this isn't fair for the consumer. Nobody is entitled to video games -- it's a privilege and not a right.

If you can't afford video games, find a cheaper hobby. Or make friends with someone who can afford them. Or pool your resources with someone else and share.

This makes sense. It is pretty scary, though.

[Heidedgar]

@acasser - So you have no problem cutting out the middle man and having many people lose their jobs because devs these days can't draw out as much money as they used to...

I in the other hand can afford video games new but that doesn't mean I want to always buy new. I rather wait a few months and get it new from amazon for half the price. Also going digital would suck because im sure there are people out there who love owning physichal copies of a game or their internet is to slow to download a 12GB game. Lets just hope for the best I suppose...

[acasser]

So you think that because someone can't afford to pay full price for something they shouldn't have it? Let's have a think about that one...

Let the market work the way it is supposed to, without undue interference from various advocacy groups (or the government). There's no reason why some people should get it discounted (or free) just because they can't afford full price.

What value will anyone place on anything if it's simply given to them? If you can't afford it now, save up and buy it when you CAN afford it. Not only will it give you a goal to shoot for, but you'll probably love the bejesus out of it when you finally do get it because you'll remember all the effort you put into obtaining it in the first place. I'm sick and tired of hearing whiners in all walks of life talk about "what they're entitled to" or "what the world owes them". The world doesn't owe you a damn thing. Put in the time and effort to get what you want, and stop expecting everyone else to cater to your whims and give you things.

I had those lessons drilled into me when I was growing up. Perhaps if more people were taught the value of diligence and hard work, this world wouldn't be devolving into the cesspool that it is now.

@acasser - So you have no problem cutting out the middle man and having many people lose their jobs because devs these days can't draw out as much money as they used to...

So you have no problem with the middleman creating nothing of actual value but instead reaping the profits from someone else's labor? If the programmers and developers don't get paid for their product, why should they even bother creating it for you to enjoy? GameStop isn't creating much of anything, but they are making a pretty penny buying stuff from one person and selling it to another.

I have no problem with the evolution of society and industry.... and if that means markets change and some companies go under because they can't keep up with progress, SO BE IT. I see no need for subsidies to be given to companies to keep their business alive if there isn't a particularly good reason for that to happen.

As to this specific example.... I wouldn't shed a tear if GameStop and their used game market disappeared tomorrow, even with the "collateral damage" that would create. Better that GameStop disappears than a couple of the comapnies that create video games go under because they can't make any money.

I in the other hand can afford video games new but that doesn't mean I want to always buy new. I rather wait a few months and get it new from amazon for half the price. Also going digital would suck because im sure there are people out there who love owning physichal copies of a game or their internet is to slow to download a 12GB game. Lets just hope for the best I suppose...

I vastly prefer having a physical copy as well, but I suspect physical copies are going to go the way of the dinosaur and the dodo -- it's simply cheaper to go digital and cut out the manufacturing, the shipping, the warehousing, and the "commission" a retailer earns for stocking/selling a game. We're also no longer in the day and age where internet access was sparse and spotty and connection speeds are slow -- high-speed and broadband is nearly ubiqtuous these days, and trying to force the industry to retain the same paradigm that has been in place for many, many years (brick-and-mortar retailing and physical everything) is simply begging for trouble down the line.

As for people who "have slow internet and can't download a 12 GB game", why should they be permitted to stand in the way of progress if the majority doesn't have that same issue?

....

In summation, the industry has to work for the creators of content or the industry won't be there. Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo have to be able to make their money from selling consoles and licensing software that can be played on said consoles. Various game developers have to be able to make money by selling product and making enough to justify the investment. Whether or not retailers make money is irrelevant to that argument -- if the first two groups I've referenced in this paragraph go under, there's no product for the retailer to sell in the first place.

[Chambers35]

Yeah mate, go and buy a house and car brand new because you're not entitled to buy something second hand, no one should be able to buy anything second hand!

[Wade_VC]

The world doesn't owe you a damn thing. Put in the time and effort to get what you want, and stop expecting everyone else to cater to your whims and give you things.

I had those lessons drilled into me when I was growing up. Perhaps if more people were taught the value of diligence and hard work, this world wouldn't be devolving into the cesspool that it is now.

Agreed 100%!!

Sadly, there are far, far too many out there nowadays who have such a sense of entitlement it is really pathetic. They want and feel everyone should just give it to them. There are more than a handful that are quite content to stay at home, collect welfare or other government aid, suck off their parents, spouses or friends, yet are the first to hold out their hands and cry when they aren't getting more shit handed to them.

Yes, in today's job climate, there may be a lot of folks who are currently not working, but those are not the types I am speaking of...it is the long-term lazy SOB's who have made or are making a living sponging off others and the taxpayers who will, in an instant, expect the world to give them whatever their lazy hearts desire.

[DanielVT]

I read an interesting article on Yahoo the other day about the supposed future of the gaming world. We are now in a digital age, an age that is filled with controversies over DLC and piracy of games. While I am almost certain none of those things will stop anytime soon, it worries me to know what kinds of things companies are doing to prevent/cover them up from happening.

The article I read talks about how the next generation of consoles will block certain features of pre-owned games. Would something like that be legal? Could you guys imagine the damage it could do to certain businesses? I for one would be interested in seeing how the gaming community would be affected by such a thing.

I wonder if companies who profit off of used games will fight back if this does indeed happen one day. What about the gamers who loan games to their buddies? What about the original owner of the game? What is going to happen if our console breaks down and we need to purchase a new one? Will we need to buy some kind of access code to unlock all of the features we had when we first purchased the game? I hope not.

This is the link to the article of you guys are interested in reading it.

http://games.yahoo.c...-003839870.html

Please give me back some feedback, guys. I would really like to see how people feel about this.

I talked to a guy at Gamestop and he said he did not believe the rumors. He said it would actually hurt the games industry as a whole because alot of people get into a series by buying an entry of a franchise used, like the series, then buy the latest game at full price. This f'd up anti-used games rumor would screw everything up.

[LordHiroRose]

I talked to a guy at Gamestop and he said he did not believe the rumors. He said it would actually hurt the games industry as a whole because alot of people get into a series by buying an entry of a franchise used, like the series, then buy the latest game at full price. This f'd up anti-used games rumor would screw everything up.

That makes sense. I just hope it is a dirty rumor in the end.

[Piggie_Pie]

I don't actually think the developers/producers of games get money for used games, so it does make sense to do it from a financial point of view. It just sucks BIG TIME for the consumer, there are people who can't afford to buy brand new games.

Im one of those people that LOVE to buy used games when the game isn't "worthy of buying at full price"... but Im also the kind of person that video game developers don't like because they know that i can buy a game for $20 and still get the same privileges as someone who got the game new for $65... granted, i love to buy NEW games too and i try to pre-order my games MONTHS in advance so that i can slowly pay them off...

So you think that because someone can't afford to pay full price for something they shouldn't have it? Let's have a think about that one...

I don't think thats what he is saying... in context... the fact is that companies can do whatever they want to do unfortunately... Used games are second hand and companies don't care about them... they only care about what they sell off the shelf... Trust me, i love to get a "buy two get one free" deal from gamestop and i buy used games all the time because it helps eat the cost but its a privilege at this point to be able to buy games on the cheap and not have any repercussions...

Yeah mate, go and buy a house and car brand new because you're not entitled to buy something second hand, no one should be able to buy anything second hand!

when you buy a new car or a new house you have a warranty (believe me... i have purchased TWO houses that were new construction and both of my cars we purchased new)... If i were to buy a used car or truck or house you have to deal with miles that other people put on the vehicle and a house that could have cat piss on the carpet and old plumbing. The moral of the story is that the builder of our houses got paid and i got a LOT of great things that came with my new house and new car (like a warranty and a free subscription to OnStar) that i wouldn't have gotten if i purchased used stuff... why wouldn't it be the same with the future of video games? Im not here to argue with you friend... im just trying to shed light

its just a sad truth really... I don't like it any more that you or anyone else but that doesn't mean that they won't do it and it doesn't mean that we will stop gaming...

[Maitre]

if this EVER happens i will use my 800$ on a PC upgrade and start playing WOW instead of buying a new console, when you sell, you SELL a product. Whatever i wanna do with that product after i bought it is my freaking business. If you wanna keep your rights to your product there is a valid term that exists and its called RENTING.

Now if game companies start renting me games, they can sit on a huge pole because they will get 0 dollars from me.

That being said i buy 99% of my games new or on preorder. But if for example, i bought all my psp games as physical copies, than since the psVita can't use those, i sold my psp games to get a psVITA and than rebuy those that work on the vita. Now if i can't sell my games --> no console sold for them --> no virtual title sold X 20.

Honestly, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot with a rocket launcher.

the sad part is that screwing the used sales over won't mean more new sales, It'll mean people people will buy less new games because they can't sell those they don't need to buy more new games.

[Wade_VC]

Yeah mate, go and buy a house and car brand new because you're not entitled to buy something second hand, no one should be able to buy anything second hand!

Firstly, any reasonable person can not compare a $60 video game to a $175,000+ home or $20,000 automobile that also requires a lease of anywhere from 5 years to 30+ years, bank loans and credit checks. Normally I agree with most of your posts, but to make this comparison is just more than stretching it.

What I don't get is that this is a hobby, a recreation....no one needs to or has to purchase anything. There are many hobbies I would like to get involved in, but the cost(s) associated with such make it prohibitive. That is just a fact of life. Just becasue I can't afford certain hobbies does not mean I expect or even feel a sense of entitlement from those within the hobby to lower prices just so I can participate.

As far as video games go, it is actually one of the cheapest, most "bang-for-you-buck" recreational forms out there. What other past-time or recreation can you spend $60 (based on a new game) and in return be able to spend anywhere from 10 hours to 100+ hours (depending on the game)?

None that I can think of.

Take your family out to a pizza dinner and a movie. Here in California, that will easily set you back $40 for the pizza & drinks, and another $24-$30 for the movie tickets, and another $25 at the snack bar (popcorn and 3 large soda's)

Total cost: $95

Total time: 3-4 hours

Now don't get me wrong, I in no way am stating that Corporate greed isn't out of control nor am I a defender of Big Business, but as a recreation, a hobby or past-time, video gaming is like any recreation, you do not have to engage in such. If you decide to, then one should do some research into the costs of such recreations. I don't go into a hobby/recreation, and then demand or complain that the costs of such are too prohibitive or that the manufacturers should lower prices because I didn't do my research or that I can not afford such costs.

Then there are those who honestly, with a feeling of grotesque entitlement, are clueless as to why they can't get the newest game on the market with all the bells & whistles but at a fraction of the cost. They don't want to wait for the price to drop, they want it NOW, but are obtuse as to why they have to pay the same as everyone else.

That is the epitome of "Entitlement".

[Piggie_Pie]

it kinda goes back to the root of WHY you play video games... if you play for trophies then this news is horrific when you only buy used games... if you play for the experience as most of us older folks do, you can wait 5 years and buy everything used and still have a fun experience playing games...

I love trophies, don't get me wrong but i also feel like the world would be better without them because they have created a different atmosphere from what we were use to years ago... They are a great tool for some people to show off their 100%s but i feel like the majority of gamers are even playing games they wouldn't have normally played otherwise (i have fallen victim of this as well)... Im at the point in my life where i have 45 games on my shelf and 35 of them haven't been played or finished yet... RPGs that take 100+ hours to play... I will still get my platinums but they will be few and far between and only because Im a perfectionist... im even going back to play some non-trophy games so that i can return to my gaming roots... and a great thing about loving RPGs is that when i do buy a NEW game i get 100-200 hours out of them and i feel like i get more bang for my buck... i have a hard time paying full price for a game that i can beat and get a platinum on in 20 hours.

[Maitre]

What I don't get is that this is a hobby, a recreation....no one needs to or has to purchase anything. There are many hobbies I would like to get involved in, but the cost(s) associated with such make it prohibitive. That is just a fact of life. Just becasue I can't afford certain hobbies does not mean I expect or even feel a sense of entitlement from those within the hobby to lower prices just so I can participate.

The problem is we all care about this hobby in general. If everyone stops this hobby because its too costy then it sucks because devs won't be able to continue making great games since they won't make enough money.

Then there are those who honestly, with a feeling of grotesque entitlement, are clueless as to why they can't get the newest game on the market with all the bells & whistles but at a fraction of the cost. They don't want to wait for the price to drop, they want it NOW, but are obtuse as to why they have to pay the same as everyone else.

That is the epitome of "Entitlement"

The big problem here, if i read the article correctly, is that they want to completely shut off used games, not just a part of it like the MultiPlayer. And i don't mind that they'd strip a part of the games for used games as long they let you buy the stripped version, that's why i don't mind the online game pass, since you're supposed to be able to buy it if you have a used game.

But now if they completely screw off used games then there is a problem, for the reasons i stated above in my previous post.

[acasser]

The problem is we all care about this hobby in general. If everyone stops this hobby because its too costy then it sucks because devs won't be able to continue making great games since they won't make enough money.

But now if they completely screw off used games then there is a problem, for the reasons i stated above in my previous post.

You do realize your two thoughts contradict one another?

In one breath, you're worried about the developers not making enough money to continue to make great games. In the next, you advocate for the continuation of the used game market.... which delivers zero dollars to the developer in the first place (simply to the middle-man such as GameStop).

You can't have it both ways. If your concern is the developer making money, you should be an advocate for the lack of purchase/play options that don't deliver some amount of money to the guys making the game. If your concern is accessability and affordability for the gamer, then you want whatever options lower the price -- and the used game market is typically the largest driver of sales at a lower price point for a consumer (as opposed to direct download games with no possibility of return/exchange).

[Wade_VC]

The problem is we all care about this hobby in general. If everyone stops this hobby because its too costy then it sucks because devs won't be able to continue making great games since they won't make enough money.

Although I do agree with this to an extent, we are still speaking of a hobby/past-time/recreation that is still quite cheap after the initial purchase of the console. We are talking $45/$60 for a new game (most at the $60 range).

That is not to say I have anything against used games as I used to purchase a lot of my games used. But to be quite honest, and this has nothing to do with the Developers, but I will use GameStop as an example.

New game: $59.99

Used game: $56.00

Not a hell of a lot of savings for a measly $3.00. In those cases, I will just purchase the new game.

But at the same time, I agree with what piggie touched on: There are too many who only play a game just for the trophies. It is rare to see anyone who, once they have earned all the trophies in a game, to still play a game just for fun. There are so many games that have online modes that are just fun to play...but take trophies away, and most gamers anymore have no interest. Not only are they missing out on some good fun, they are also shortening the life-span of the games they own. I have more than a handful of games where I have more than 75+ hours into them...and still going. In other words, I am still enjoying those games well after I have earned my trophies...I squeeze as much fun and use out of them as I can.

Just like any hobby/past-time/recreation, you determine the amount of money you can or are willing to spend to engage in such. As for me, I am happy as a pig in shit if I purchase 1 new game a month...and I play the game to its fullest to get my monies worth out of it. For those who play just for trophies, and finish a game in 3-4 days, it isn't the price of the games that is an issue, but they way in which they have chosen to approach this form of recreation.

Again, I am not making excuses for Corporate greed, but the bottom line is it is my money, and I will decide what and how much I am willing to spend on gaming within my budget.

As far as used games go in general, it is no secret that Developers are looking into ways to putting a stop to this, and they will eventually. As long as there are millions of gamers who have to earn those trophies as soon as they can (and therefore boost Developers' profits), Developers could care less if we like it or not.

I am curious though....if Developers were to implement a method in which only new games have trophy support, and used games do not, how many would still purchase those games; even if said games were 75% cheaper?

My guess is very few because it is not the enjoyment and fun of the game many are interested in any more, it is the trophies.

As for me, I'd purchase used at a big savings and still enjoy the game, trophies or not.

[Maitre]

You do realize your two thoughts contradict one another?

In one breath, you're worried about the developers not making enough money to continue to make great games. In the next, you advocate for the continuation of the used game market.... which delivers zero dollars to the developer in the first place (simply to the middle-man such as GameStop).

You can't have it both ways. If your concern is the developer making money, you should be an advocate for the lack of purchase/play options that don't deliver some amount of money to the guys making the game. If your concern is accessability and affordability for the gamer, then you want whatever options lower the price -- and the used game market is typically the largest driver of sales at a lower price point for a consumer (as opposed to direct download games with no possibility of return/exchange).

In the case where used games become unplayable, which is my understanding.

When i sell a game, i usually use the money to buy a new game which gives money to devs. It is true that the dev of the original game won't get a cent from this transaction but a different dev will receive money for the new purchase.

If i don't sell my game, i won't buy a new game or at least not at launch and either way the devs won't get any/less money from the new game purchase and the used game dev still won't get a cent since i won't even be able to sell the game.

My point being that the used market is boosting the new game market to an some extent. I don't have any statistics on this, but if the spectrum of players with this buying/selling habit is large enough (75%) ... i fear that the new game market will take a head first dive into an empty pool. And if this happens well i foresee small devs closing, with only the big players(EA, Activision,etc...) having a monopoly on the market ... and that my friend is scary !!!

I am curious though....if Developers were to implement a method in which only new games have trophy support, and used games do not, how many would still purchase those games; even if said games were 75% cheaper?

My guess is very few because it is not the enjoyment and fun of the game many are interested in any more, it is the trophies.

As for me, I'd purchase used at a big savings and still enjoy the game, trophies or not.

Of course but this would imply that they even let you play the used game, which to my understanding of the original article, is not the case.

Now if i misread and they let you play stripped games. I only ask for Two things :

1- i want playable physical copies of my games. The game had better be dirt cheap for me to get a digital copy instead of physical if i have the option.

2- If they strip anything from a used game i hope they have a way to let me buy what was stripped later (AKA Online pass).

[Wade_VC]

If they strip anything from a used game i hope they have a way to let me buy what was stripped later (AKA Online pass).

I think this will be more than likely to come to fruition than stopping the sale/playability of used games, to be quite honest. By stopping used games from being playable (therefore forcing the purchase of new games), Developers would see a drastic decline in sales. However, with the option quoted above, they have a potential cash-cow on their hands.