Why are they doing this? Platinum rant.

[JourneySilvers]

8 minutes ago, Sicho said:

The more people are catered to, the better. Nothing wrong with niche games catering to special interest but we are discussing major mainstream releases with massive marketing budgets here, not obscure indie title number 100

Gotta disagree with you still my guy. Because there are so many different people and ways of playing, we get to pick and choose what we want to play or go for the platinum in, and the developers decide the trophy list for us. I think that's honestly the best way to be, missables and pain-in-the-ass trophies and all. It creates freedom for people to play how they want instead of insisting that certain developers need to make certain lists to appeal to the majority of trophy hunters (who are niche in the gaming community still). 

 

But if you can't see it that way, oh well. I'm not here to argue, I just think the discussion here is interesting. 

[Sicho]

1 minute ago, totakos1 said:

Every souls game ( at least that I played ) requires 2-3 or even 4 play throughs we all knew it before the game even came out! You miss something you go for another ending and you get it! Might be annoying for some but it has always been like that! If it is 200 hours to get the platinum then that’s it! NG++ or NG+++ ( looking at Sekiro and Nioh ) it’s not always that easy ( don’t know yet about this one )

 

again - because this is a pet peeve of mine - saying that "it has always been this way" is in no way an argument you should make in any discussion ever, no matter the topic. Jeez, the conservatism is strong in this community.

Change is good people!

[Timo425]

5 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

again - because this is a pet peeve of mine - saying that "it has always been this way" is in no way an argument you should make in any discussion ever, no matter the topic. Jeez, the conservatism is strong in this community.

Change is good people!

No no, souls games are designed to be multi-playthrough and I think most people like it this way. It's great that your stuff carries over to next playthrough. Ng+ has been almost a "trademark" thing for souls since Demon Souls.

[Sicho]

2 minutes ago, Timo425 said:

 If you really want the plat so bad, putting in some 15%-20% extra hours isn't a bad thing in my book. It seems to be your own mental thing...

 

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly here. I'm a bit of a pessimist when it comes to my life expectancy and now with the war in Europe and so on, who knows if I'm still able to even play video games a year from now? There could be a nuclear war soon and we might be all dead in two weeks ? (hopefully not though) The whole pandemic should have taught us how quickly things can change, no? Therefore, if the day arrives where, for whatever reason, I'm unable to play games anymore, is there a chance that I wish I invested these extra hours in more games instead of "completing" a single one? I think there is. Therefore, I want to enjoy as many as I can.

 

An analogy for this would be traveling. There are people that are content with traveling to the same destination time and time again. Good for them. I tick differently. My "rule" is to travel at least once a year to a destination I've never been to before. Might be a city, might be a country, might be a region, doesn't matter as long as it is "new". My reasoning for this is that I'm now 37 yo and if I'm lucky enough to live long enough and be healthy enough to travel until I'm 70 and I do one new destination per year, that's only 33 destinations left - which I personally think is not many at all! I want to see the world goddammit  And it's only 33 destinations IF nothing else happens like new pandemics, wars, or other things (personal tragedies, finances, etc.) that prevent me from traveling! I already lost two "destinations" due to Covid disabling me from traveling at all these last two years. When it comes to my travel goals, Covid effectively wasted two years of my life.

 

And I more or less have the same approach to gaming. More power to the people who like replaying a game many times (= the people who regularly travel to the same destination) but I want to play many games (= traveling to many destinations).

 

My dad died in 2020 and only was 69 yo. He started losing his eyesight more or less five years prior to that. I don't know if it's a hereditary thing or not (his mom had similar problems) but it is a scary thing to think about that maybe not even 30 years from now I might have similar issues that might impact my ability to play games?

 

Of course, I don't know what the future holds, and maybe everything will be fine and I will still play video games in my 90s. But it can also work out completely different and that's why I say time is short and precious and I prefer not "wasting" it on collecting some virtual JPGs on a virtual profile that nobody cares about when I'm dead and gone  The dilemma is that while I consider trophies to be unimportant by and large, the act of collecting them is something I actually like - hence the disgruntlement when I see that a game basically wants me to "waste" my time getting them. Of course, thanks to guides it is often possible to bypass said time waste but, as mentioned before, I think guides also sully the gaming experience in a way.

 

But that's also the other part of my argument: since there are ways to enable you to skip the multiple playthroughs in many games through many different means (either by making sure you don't miss anything by using a guide, or by save-scumming, or by having someone drop you weapons, etc.) why have them in there in the first place? It makes them even more worthless IMO. Replace them (in the future, not with already existing games, to be clear) with something that's not "scummable" or "guidable" but fun and challenging and I'm a happy camper  

18 minutes ago, JourneySilvers said:

Gotta disagree with you still my guy. Because there are so many different people and ways of playing, we get to pick and choose what we want to play or go for the platinum in, and the developers decide the trophy list for us. I think that's honestly the best way to be, missables and pain-in-the-ass trophies and all. It creates freedom for people to play how they want instead of insisting that certain developers need to make certain lists to appeal to the majority of trophy hunters (who are niche in the gaming community still). 

 

But if you can't see it that way, oh well. I'm not here to argue, I just think the discussion here is interesting. 

 

I don't even disagree with that. I will however persist on my right to rant about the trophies I don't like

 

and since I'm not the OP, I know that I'm not the only one who thinks like that since OP felt compelled to open up a ranting thread  

[DrBloodmoney]

34 minutes ago, Sicho said:

The more people are catered to, the better. Nothing wrong with niche games catering to special interest but we are discussing major mainstream releases with massive marketing budgets here, not obscure indie title number 100

 

You are right that Elden Ring is a huge, mainstream product at this point... but it is only as successful as it is - and commands the powerhouse sales it has - as a result of being the latest step in a lineage of game that was very much born out of the extreme niche scene, from Kingsfield, through Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, to Bloodborne, to Sekiro and through to Elden Ring.

 

The reason these games are as beloved as they are, and have gained the status they have and the acclaim they have, is by specifically not diluting their design philosophy, and not blending their niche eccentricities with the more mainstream, focus-tested AAA games they now compete with.

 

The Souls games' didn't add AAA sensibilities into their existing formula to become popular - they dragged their niche sensibilities into the AAA sphere.

The games became successful by continuing to do what they have always done, but being so good, that they brought more and more people along for their weird rides each time, rather than flattening the ride to make it more universally appealing or universally accessible.

 

To change that now, I think would have a much more negative impact that I think you are allowing for.

 

I flat out guarantee you, that if the story around Elden Ring was that they had made the game too much more accessible - if it had a trophy list that could be completed in a single playthrough, or they made the narrative more explicit and easy to follow, or removed the esoteric and obtuse quest requirements... or made the narrative less reliant on understanding riddling lore in item descriptions, or gave much more guidance, or (God forbid) added some kind of easy mode or something... the fan reaction would have been visceral and catastrophic.

The general consensus around the game would have been swiftly, and irreversibly mythologised as negative - popping the bubble that the games have been happily soaring on up until now.

 

I think if the Souls audience - which is very sizeable now - felt like the game was being overly simplified, FROM would lose 3 existing Souls fans for every new player they brought into the fold. 

 

There are a lot of games out there who are smoothing their edges down, and making everything more palatable and easier to gain more audience - and I don't really take issue with that. For sure, I tend to be the last person to complain about something being "too easy" or "too simple", and the first one to roll my eyes when other people make those complaints...

....but I think the Souls games specifically are one of the last bastions of the "big" gaming scene that really still sticks to their niche sensibilities.

 

It would make me quite sad if they changed that. 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[DeathlessVoid]

21 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

again - because this is a pet peeve of mine - saying that "it has always been this way" is in no way an argument you should make in any discussion ever, no matter the topic. Jeez, the conservatism is strong in this community.

Change is good people!

 

Honestly the vibe you're giving off is this:

You want everything to be 'on rails' for YOU. And you specifically. You treat this as a rollercoaster experience. You're strapped into your seat and let everything be fed to you, brain off, enjoying "your free time" this way. Essentially a living zombie on a couch.

You want to be spoonfed everything so that it's entirely a breeze and you can just skip merrily through everything and gather up a ton of platinums to show your friend how many games you've completed more than them.

 

That's not how it works. And that's definitely not how it works in Soulslike games. You have come to the wrong game-specific forum to keep your footing on this hill about how "nothing should be missable, ever! because MY free time!" You think this would be good now, until you realize it's NO fun. If it is fun to you, ignore trophies. Problem solved. You already said yourself you're not a trophy hunter, so what's your problem?

 

For example, why have missable content? Sometimes it works in the favour of story. In fact, it has always been this way throughout Dark Souls. If I fail to rescue one character on their quest line, why would I want to see them later, still alive? No. They should be dead, I failed to rescue them, therefore their questline is done, missed, I can't get it until my next playthrough.

 

Now you're gonna say "bUt dOn'T tIe A tRoPhY tO tHaT".

 

In many cases, trophies make players explore far more content than they would've otherwise. That's a lot of the job of trophies, to entice and encourage and reward exploration.

 

I'll die on my hill of "you aren't entitled to the platinum". Just like I am not entitled to the platinum for games with online trophies because I hate online trophies. I'm still not going to bemoan over them because some people love them. This era of participation awards mentality needs to stop.

Edited March 7, 2022 by DeathlessVoid

[Sicho]

13 minutes ago, Timo425 said:

No no, souls games are designed to be multi-playthrough and I think most people like it this way. It's great that your stuff carries over to next playthrough. Ng+ has been almost a "trademark" thing for souls since Demon Souls.

 

that doesn't mean that there cannot be other options that don't destroy the way the games are designed - like for example creating in-game incentives for multiple playthroughs but without tying trophies to them? Just a thought

[Timo425]

2 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

that doesn't mean that there cannot be other options that don't destroy the way the games are designed - like for example creating in-game incentives for multiple playthroughs but without tying trophies to them? Just a thought

Again, you seem to have the mindset that a game ends with a single playthrough. Souls games inherently do not end with a single playthrough.

By your logic, you would rather play through a 100 hour game with no missables rather than a 50 hour game with missables that offers great replay value.

Do you see my point? Am I wrong here?

[FellOmen]

Honestly Elden Ring platinum pretty straightforward compared to other Souls games. Very little grinding as well. Only questline you have to pay attention to is Ranni and anything missed you can blaze through on NG+

[Timo425]

1 minute ago, Timo425 said:

Again, you seem to have the mindset that a game ends with a single playthrough. Souls games inherently do not end with a single playthrough.

By your logic, you would rather play through a 100 hour game with no missables rather than a 50 hour game with missables that offers great replay value and takes faster than 100h to plat.

Do you see my point? Am I wrong here?

 

[Sicho]

2 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

You are right that Elden Ring is a huge, mainstream product at this point... but it is only as successful as it is - and commands the powerhouse sales it has - as a result of being the latest step in a lineage of game that was very much born out of the extreme niche scene, from Kingsfield, through Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, to Bloodborne, to Sekiro and through to Elden Ring.

 

The reason these games are as beloved as they are, and have gained the status they have and the acclaim they have, is by specifically not diluting their design philosophy, and not blending their niche eccentricities with the more mainstream, focus-tested AAA games they now compete with.

 

The Souls games' didn't add AAA sensibilities into their existing formula to become popular - they dragged their niche sensibilities into the AAA sphere.

The games became successful by continuing to do what they have always done, but being so good, that they brought more and more people along for their weird rides each time, rather than flattening the ride to make it more universally appealing or universally accessible.

 

To change that now, I think would have a much more negative impact that I think you are allowing for.

 

I flat out guarantee you, that if the story around Elden Ring was that they had made the game too much more accessible - if it had a trophy list that could be completed in a single playthrough, or they made the narrative more explicit and easy to follow, or removed the esoteric and obtuse quest requirements... or made the narrative less reliant on understanding riddling lore in item descriptions, or gave much more guidance, or (God forbid) added some kind of easy mode or something... the fan reaction would have been visceral and catastrophic.

The general consensus around the game would have been swiftly, and irreversibly mythologised as negative - popping the bubble that the games have been happily soaring on up until now.

 

I think if the Souls audience - which is very sizeable now - felt like the game was being overly simplified, FROM would lose 3 existing Souls fans for every new player they brought into the fold. 

 

There are a lot of games out there who are smoothing their edges down, and making everything more palatable and easier to gain more audience - and I don't really take issue with that. For sure, I tend to be the last person to complain about something being "too easy" or "too simple", and the first one to roll my eyes when other people make those complaints...

....but I think the Souls games specifically are one of the last bastions of the "big" gaming scene that really still sticks to their niche sensibilities.

 

It would make me quite sad if they changed that. 

 

 

 

I'm not asking for the games to change.

I'm asking for the trophy requirements to change  that's two completely different things. It can be hard and have multiple endings yadda yadda yadda and still make a Platinum that is enjoyable and challenging without leaning on the multiple playthroughs or the missable content. It literally takes nothing away from the games themselves. At least that's my opinion.

Take Dark Souls - instead of having trophies that are missable and virtually "everyone" cheats anyway by getting weapon drops from other players or save-scumming the endings and so on, would it not be a better experience if they made some trophies that lean more on the actual game and present actual challenges instead? Like getting from bonfire X to Bonfire Y wearing no armor or something silly like that? That would not be missable but if implemented correctly (and I'm not creative enough to come up with a really cool trophy idea right now, so I know this example is kinda bad) it would be challenging and fun and probably not scummable - and it would be in the vein of their general design philosophy.

[Timo425]

2 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

I'm not asking for the games to change.

I'm asking for the trophy requirements to change  that's two completely different things. It can be hard and have multiple endings yadda yadda yadda and still make a Platinum that is enjoyable and challenging without leaning on the multiple playthroughs or the missable content. It literally takes nothing away from the games themselves. At least that's my opinion.

Take Dark Souls - instead of having trophies that are missable and virtually "everyone" cheats anyway by getting weapon drops from other players or save-scumming the endings and so on, would it not be a better experience if they made some trophies that lean more on the actual game and present actual challenges instead? Like getting from bonfire X to Bonfire Y wearing no armor or something silly like that? That would not be missable but if implemented correctly (and I'm not creative enough to come up with a really cool trophy idea right now, so I know this example is kinda bad) it would be challenging and fun and probably not scummable - and it would be in the vein of their general design philosophy.

Well I think you are in the minority.

Most people just look at how long the game takes to plat and how difficult it is, not whether it can be done in a single playthrough with no missables in sight.

While perhaps souls games trophies could be improved in some way, brute forcing missables out of existence is not the solution. And ER trophy list looks quite solid to me. Not wanting to start a ng+ seems like your personal quirk.

[Sicho]

 

3 minutes ago, Timo425 said:

Again, you seem to have the mindset that a game ends with a single playthrough. Souls games inherently do not end with a single playthrough.

By your logic, you would rather play through a 100 hour game with no missables rather than a 50 hour game with missables that offers great replay value.

Do you see my point? Am I wrong here?

 

my point is that I rather play two different 50h games than one 50h game twice. Because, at least for me, those two times 50h are probably more fun than replaying 50 hours again of something I already know. I probably enjoyed my first 50h playthrough but doing it again would probably not be enjoyable for me.

 

If you take a game X and it is let's say 30h long on average and then you can "speed" through a NG+ run in 10h - my problem with those 10 hours is that even when the game puts stuff in that only exists in NG+, it's probably only a small part of that 10h and the bulk of it is stuff I have already done. And doing stuff again just gives me absolutely no satisfaction anymore.

As a kid, I replayed games dozens of times, out of necessity because I had like one game a year or so. But nowadays, with the plethora of games that are out there and the literal hundreds of actually good f2p games and some nice MMOs that "never" end, replaying something you already know just seems super boring to me.

[DrBloodmoney]

2 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

I'm not asking for the games to change.

I'm asking for the trophy requirements to change  that's two completely different things. It can be hard and have multiple endings yadda yadda yadda and still make a Platinum that is enjoyable and challenging without leaning on the multiple playthroughs or the missable content. It literally takes nothing away from the games themselves. At least that's my opinion.

Take Dark Souls - instead of having trophies that are missable and virtually "everyone" cheats anyway by getting weapon drops from other players or save-scumming the endings and so on, would it not be a better experience if they made some trophies that lean more on the actual game and present actual challenges instead? Like getting from bonfire X to Bonfire Y wearing no armor or something silly like that? That would not be missable but if implemented correctly (and I'm not creative enough to come up with a really cool trophy idea right now, so I know this example is kinda bad) it would be challenging and fun and probably not scummable - and it would be in the vein of their general design philosophy.

 

Okay, I think I actually have the answer for what they should have done, that would satisfy you, me, and everyone else!

 

Add a single, additional trophy:

 

 "Complete NG++"

 

 

Think about it - if they added that one trophy, then nothing would be really missable, as you would need to finish 3 playthroughs anyways - and it wouldn't make you feel like you were being forced to do "unnecessary" additional playthroughs, as the first 3 would be, by definition, necessary 

[Sicho]

1 minute ago, Timo425 said:

Well I think you are in the minority.

 

maybe. Idc. It's my opinion and I'm stating it in a thread that's about ranting about missable trophies  

1 minute ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

Okay, I think I actually have the answer for what they should have done, that would satisfy you, me, and everyone else!

 

Add a single, additional trophy:

 

 "Complete NG++"

 

 

Think about it - if they added that one trophy, then nothing would be really missable, as you would need to finish 3 playthroughs anyways - and it wouldn't make you feel like you were being forced to do "unnecessary" additional playthroughs, as the first 3 would be, by definition, necessary 

 

no, that would just be as bad as those games that have a trophy for playing on Hard but you have to play on Normal first to unlock Hard. It's so stupid IMO.

 

and btw, still a bunch of weapons and spells that you can miss even in three playthroughs in DS  a guide is pretty much a must because a lot of things are super obscure.

 

And just to be clear, I have absolutely nothing against the obscure nature of Souls, I really dig how esoteric they are with many things in their games. What i#m saying is that I don't like achievements tied to these things - not disliking the things themselves.

[Timo425]

Just now, Sicho said:

 

 

my point is that I rather play two different 50h games than one 50h game twice.

But you are not playing it twice if the game is designed to be continued. The game its designed to be played again in ng+, it's not like you are going back to new save and doing it from scratch.

It's literally part of the game design to go through it again, now knowing where to go, with gear still available from last playthrough and enemies designed to be stronger. The way  you talk about it, you make it sound like you are playing some on-rails heavily story based games that is literally the same experience the second time around - which it's not.

 

It's really a you-problem here, you want the whole world to revolve around you.

[totakos1]

@Sicho not everyone waits for item drops or does save scumming, a lot of us enjoy-like finding those things and doing the actual play throughs, so yes it’s good the way it is and most of the people that actually play souls games don’t want it to change!

[Timo425]

3 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

maybe. Idc. It's my opinion and I'm stating it in a thread that's about ranting about missable trophies  

Sure, but you are kind of making it your own thing with trying to exterminate missables from the planet. This is not what its about. OP isn't ranting about missables as a whole, but specifically missables in a looong open world game where second playthrough would be nearly as long as the first one and being forced to replay most of it just to reach some dialogue option again.

[Sicho]

1 minute ago, Timo425 said:

that is literally the same experience the second time around - which it's not.

 

the bulk of it is. and for me, the little things that may be "new" or "different" are not enough to make the time investment worth it.

You don't have to agree with that, it's fine. It's just how I see it.

And, specific to Dark Souls et al., it's not like I never tried NG+. Hey, I even have the plat in DeS Remake  But, as everyone knows, while NG+ is supposed to be harder as in the enemies have more health and so on, in reality it usually isn't because your character is probably super strong already (which is way many people are able to literally "run" thourhg NG+) which just makes it even more boring to me because suddenly some (not all) of the bosses become push overs.

I'm just not really interested in it. Sometimes, when a lot of time has passed since my initial playthrough, I might give it a go again. (like I played Dark Souls Remastered years after I played through DS on PS3) But immediately doing stuff again right after I've done it - for me, that is very rarely exciting.

1 minute ago, totakos1 said:

@Sicho not everyone waits for item drops or does save scumming, a lot of us enjoy-like finding those things and doing the actual play throughs, so yes it’s good the way it is and most of the people that actually play souls games don’t want it to change!

 

not taking that away from anyone. I just don't like that trophies are tied to it

[Timo425]

Well, like I said, you have your three very specific demands that are just unrealistic when added together and you gotta realize the world doesn't revolve around you. I guess I have nothing more to say about it, thats how it is.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Timo425

[Sicho]

2 minutes ago, Timo425 said:

Sure, but you are kind of making it your own thing with trying to exterminate missables from the planet. This is not what its about. OP isn't ranting about missables as a whole, but specifically missables in a looong open world game where second playthrough would be nearly as long as the first one and being forced to replay most of it just to reach some dialogue option again.

 

I'm not trying to exterminate anything, I don't have that kind of power or influence. I am however communicating what I personally would prefer it to be. Just as some people would like pineapple pizza to disappear forever  They can't do anything about it but they still tell every chance they get how disgusting they think pineapple on pizza is  Missable trophies and online trophies are my pineapples on the platinum pizzas

[DrBloodmoney]

3 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

and btw, still a bunch of weapons and spells that you can miss even in three playthroughs in DS  a guide is pretty much a must because a lot of things are super obscure.

 

I don't know that that's true. 

 

I see the value in a Wiki for sure - a resource you can hop to in second and third playthroughs, to look up a specific thing that still eludes you, or a clue as to the location of an item or an NPC if you still haven't found it, but I haven't ever really felt the need for a full blown guide for one of these games, or had someone drop me all the weapons or items or anything like that.

 

That's got nothing to do with being "hardcore" or anything like that, BTW - I'm legendarily bad at games, and find Souls game very, very tricky, quite often.

 

Not to blow my own trumpet or anything... but, in the pantheon of shite gamers...

 ?

 

[Timo425]

1 minute ago, Sicho said:

 

I'm not trying to exterminate anything, I don't have that kind of power or influence. I am however communicating what I personally would prefer it to be. Just as some people would like pineapple pizza to disappear forever  They can't do anything about it but they still tell every chance they get how disgusting they think pineapple on pizza is  Missable trophies and online trophies are my pineapples on the platinum pizzas

Well its more like someone starts a thread by saying that pineapples are dumb on pizzas. Which is fine, their opinion. But then you butt in and start saying how pizzas can have only one slice of pineapple, at a specific 34 degree angle and not see how peculiar or personal your demands are, and by no means could you expect devs to cater to that, especially because most people would be against it.

If you like to talk in analogies, that was one.

[Sicho]

1 minute ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I don't know that that's true. 

 

I see the value in a Wiki for sure - a resource you can hop to in second and third playthroughs, to look up a specific thing that still eludes you, or a clue as to the location of an item or an NPC if you still haven't found it, but I haven't ever really felt the need for a full blown guide for one of these games, or had someone drop me all the weapons or items or anything like that.

 

I get that. But I'm looking at it from the point of view of someone, who doesn't want to do a second and third playthrough

 

BTW that's also something that developed over time, when I was younger I didn't mind as much. But with all that happened recently to me personally and generally around the world, I'm much more aware of the "preciousness" of time and just want to see many destinations instead of seeing the same one thrice

 

oh and for the record: I actually don't mind pineapple on pizzas! Let the hate flow!

[Lowlliet]

Aaaaaand of course, he completely ignored the post that provided valid arguments from @DeathlessVoid.

 

He must be trolling at this point.