Why are they doing this? Platinum rant.

[Timo425]

14 minutes ago, Sicho said:

Having that trophy in without it being missable though would not make the game a story autopop, as there is no relation to the story whatsoever. It would also not make the trophy list "worse" in any way - at least in my opinion.

 

And examples like that are legion.

 

In the case of ER, there is, afaik, a missable weapon. Again, not story-related at all. It's more an exploration-related trophy, which in itself is fine, but it's sullied by the fact that you can apparently lock yourself out of it if - again - you don't know what you have to do. Trophies like that grind my gears because, in most of these cases, you literally have to look up what needs to be done because it is super obscure sometimes. And again, I have no problems with there being obscure stuff and secrets in games, I have however problems if trophies are tied to those secrets AND those secrets are done in a way that you can lock yourself out of them, making the missable.

 

It would be easy to either make the weapon available multiple times in the game (which, afaik is actually the case here as the NPC you need to kill disappears but apparently is available again at some other point in the game?) or design it in a way that you might miss it in the sense of "you did not find out that you could do this or that" but not miss it in the sense of there is only a limited time frame to get it and afterward the only way is to restart your playthrough.

It's two different things really. There's missable in the sense of "oh you did not find that" but you can still go look for it later on or it being missable in the sense that's discussed in this thread that means if you don't get it at a specific point, you have to start the whole game over. Two very different things.

If it was needed to do in order to progress the story, I would consider it story related unmissable trophy. Which is what trophies I am talking about.

 

Quote

In the case of ER, there is, afaik, a missable weapon. Again, not story-related at all. It's more an exploration-related trophy, which in itself is fine, but it's sullied by the fact that you can apparently lock yourself out of it if - again - you don't know what you have to do

Same logic would apply here if it was unmissable. It would be essentially a storyline checkpoint.

 

 

Quote

It would be easy to either make the weapon available multiple times in the game (which, afaik is actually the case here as the NPC you need to kill disappears but apparently is available again at some other point in the game?) or design it in a way that you might miss it in the sense of "you did not find out that you could do this or that" but not miss it in the sense of there is only a limited time frame to get it and afterward the only way is to restart your playthrough.

No no no, you are talking about literally unmissable trophies, as you have made abundantly clear. The game would need to be literally unfinishable without doing that trophy.

 

 

EDIT: either that or have option to go back and do it after the end. But as I said earlier, this would limit the way developers could make trophies, since it can add extra coding complications or developing time just for your particular needs that most people don't even agree with.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Timo425

[KON007]

The amount of time you guys have spent complaining on this thread, you probably could of platinumed Elden Ring by now.  

 

Play the game; have fun.

Edited March 7, 2022 by KON007

[Sicho]

1 minute ago, KON007 said:

The amount of time you guys have spent complaining on this thread, you probably could of platinumed Elden Ring by now.  

 

during work? I don't think so

9 minutes ago, Timo425 said:

The game would need to be literally unfinishable without doing that trophy.

 

most open world games are "unfinishable" in the sense that after the story, you can continue exploring the world.

And it is "abundantly clear" which kinds of missables I mean - stuff that requires fucking STARTING OVER!

Don't be a dick.

[Wild-Arms-R]

-I don’t like missable trophies
-I don’t like Parma Death trophies
-I don’t like collectible trophies 
-I don’t like Speed run/Time trial based trophies 
-I don’t like multiple playtru trophies 
- I don’t like highest difficulty trophies(unless it’s a hard difficulty that’s not really hard)
-I don’t like platinum that take more then 40hrs.
 

So basically we have trophies hunters on here who don’t like playing anything that has anything remotely interesting.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Wild-Arms-R

[Timo425]

1 minute ago, Sicho said:

 

during work? I don't think so

 

most open world games are "unfinishable" in the sense that after the story, you can continue exploring the world.

And it is "abundantly clear" which kinds of missables I mean - stuff that requires fucking STARTING OVER!

Don't be a dick.

I'm gonna say it again since I edited it in later and you might have missed it.

You can't make all trophies unmissable simply by adding option to get them even after the game ends. The world might change, characters might die or disappear etc etc. It just adds extra limitations and complications to developers. Especially for ER where they are quite lenient anyway with the window to get the missables + the game is designed for replay anyway.

 

Quote

And it is "abundantly clear" which kinds of missables I mean - stuff that requires fucking STARTING OVER!

You stated that you want to play only once, play worry free without any guides while being guaranteed upon finish that you get a plat and no ng+. I might not have learned logic in university but even I can tell that this pretty much means no missables, nothing you can just walk by or forget to buy or anything, even if they are extremely easy to not miss. And again, having the option to go back and get them later is not always possible, as i've stated before.

[DeathlessVoid]

1 hour ago, Sicho said:

The basic things I'm saying is:

- I don't like missable trophies

- I don't like online trophies

- I don't like multiple playthroughs, especially if they are mandatory for trophies

- I don't think missables are a challenge, they are just a source of frustration but not tied to skill (exceptio probat regulam)

- I think there is a way do design more fun, challenging, and hard trophies than leaning on multiple endings, playthroughs, missable collectables etc.

... and then a whole essay about WHY I think that is

 

 

Then what DO you like? Doesn't leave a lot.

- Automatic story progression trophies

- Trophies that pop for stupid things like pressing the start button

- Collectible trophies as long as the collectibles aren't missable or need a guide

 

Basically nothing that requires any thought process, any effort, any skill, or any challenge. That's what I'm getting here.

 

You know, if you don't enjoy a challenge you can always take up PC gaming and use Cheat Engine. Then every game will be a game made juuuuuuust for you.

 

I'm gonna have to abandon ship here, because this is just absurd, as others have pointed out. You say you aren't a trophy hunter but here you are, writing novellas with each post about how every trophy list should be catered specifically to you. Weird. Gotta be a troll, or just really egocentric.

Edited March 7, 2022 by DeathlessVoid

[Misshandlad]

I'm glad there actually are games like this, that requires some thought process, involvement and engagement. Even looking at the leaderboards, this game can be platted in under 10 hours most likely (I know the no.1 clocked in at just over 5 hours but that probably took some setup before earning the first trophy) so its not like u lose out on 150 hours if u have to go again.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Misshandlad

[starcrunch061]

58 minutes ago, Lowlliet said:

But, guys, everything you’re complaining about here is part of the challenge obtaining those items and the trophy. As I said before, trophies are achievements for doing something special in the game and yes, often in specific ways. How devs intended to get them. 

 

You're telling me that the devs intended you to play offline in a game that tries to foster community through MP, just to see certain items? I don't buy it, and given that WT never saw the light of day in any future titles (excepting perhaps Sekiro, which I haven't played), I think the devs saw the problem as well.

 

Having your local WT be affected by a global average was a poor design decision. There is little challenge to manipulating WT; just kill yourself in human form in the Nexus, so that your deaths have no effect on your local WT, and don't play online. 

 

17 minutes ago, DeathlessVoid said:

Basically nothing that requires any thought process, any effort, any skill, or any challenge. That's what I'm getting here.

 

Dude, no offense, but are you really the one to be leading this charge? How many Zippy and ZJ games have you platted? I know they have the word "challenge" in the title; maybe that's what you're angling for?

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by starcrunch061

[Figz21K]

believe it or not, developers don't make games to cater to trophy hunters

[Kyal_Tohka]

To be honest, it was annoying that there was a missable part i.e. the weapon. Its only the weapon though.... The rest of the stuff I got in 1 playthrough. Doing a new game+ to get the last missable weapon however only took me 3-4 hours in a new game+. Once you have played through the game its super easy to skip things and kill bosses. I had a blast with the game and it only took me 70 hours. 
 

[Guest]

22 hours ago, mega-tallica said:

If you don't want people 'distorting' your words, than articulate your opinion better so they can't possibly misinterpret it and distort it. You can't just throw up a bad hot take on a public forum and expect people not to criticize you for it. Distorting of words and sarcasm is just the byproduct of that. 

I would very much like to agree 100% with what you said, but that cannot be the case. although OP could in fact have articulated his speech better, some people did distort the content of his speech with ironies and deviations from the original speech. this is literally a way for them to deal with an opinion they don't agree with, an attempt to expose the OP to ridicule. you can easily see what I'm talking about when you read the first few pages of this thread and see that the vast majority of counter arguments are exaggerating and increasing the OP's talk, rather than responding to his original complaint which was about collectibles and minimal tasks that can result in a "lost" trophy wise playthough. OP may not have been the wisest in his words, but I'm sure these people missed his point because it's best to do this when you're feeling attacked and emotional. so it's impossible to totally agree with what you said, because people are not being honest here, i can absolutely disagree with any of the OP's original speech and still not distort his speech the way it is recorded here.

[aarnettbraun]

4 hours ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

I couldn't care less how many ultra rares someone has or how fast someone finished a game. The fact that I've been on these forums for several years and there are still people who try to tell me I don't know jack about how some others treat trophies is just bollocks.

 

To further @MonaSaxPaynes response, I can find decade old posts on people giving on up on the Vanquish platinum because Challenge 6 is too hard. And that's the thing. People shouldn't be overly entitled to a platinum. Even without the challenges, I still would of loved Vanquish. Probably one of the best tactical third person shooters that I ever played.

 

 

I can't even pretend I'm one of the oldest people on these forums. There are plenty of people much older than me here who have been gaming since the 1980s, and do love trophies.

 

And again, I must come to say that if you're not willing to take the time to earn some trophies or any trophy, then you don't deserve them. That Dark Souls platinum wasn't for you. I spent 80 hours on it, and I loved every minute that I played.

 

Right now you're just making stupid excuses, or try to state that some requirements should be changed because "I can't handle playing the same game several times".

 

You just want easy shit. That's all I'm getting from you. Oh no, Elden Ring is too long and time consuming.

 

Fine. You don't deserve that platinum. And using the age thing as simply saying you just don't have enough time is pathetic.

Cool story, bro.

[DeathlessVoid]

10 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

Dude, no offense, but are you really the one to be leading this charge? How many Zippy and ZJ games have you platted? I know they have the word "challenge" in the title; maybe that's what you're angling for?

 

 

1. I'm not leading any charge. Sorry you've mistaken my comments for "leading", but I have no idea where you've come up with this ridiculous narrative. 

2. So glad you could take the time to check out my trophy lists. You've failed to note the more challenging titles that I've platted as well, but nice try.

3. I'm not the one here complaining about challenging trophies, missable trophies, etc. etc. etc., and in fact I am advocating for them and their relevance. Again, nice try but clearly completely missing the mark on your part.

4. If you read Sicho's novellas, you'll see he clearly just wants everything to be specifically catered to him. From the way games are designed to the way trophies are added. That's egocentricity at its finest.

 

If I want to plat Zippy, fine. If I want to plat Elden Ring, fine. If I want to plat Metal Slug Anthology, fine. If you do not, fine. But do not try to demand that everything is made for you, as Sicho is doing here. This is my point.

[WiktorM101]

12 minutes ago, Figz21K said:

believe it or not, developers don't make games to cater to trophy hunters

some do

-Breakthrough Gaming LLC

-POWGI

-Ratalaika

but that doesn't mean every studio should.

In some games missible trophies are the the reason of they rarity. Heavy Rain or Beyond: Two Souls would be 80%+ if not missible trophies. Now i can say i have HR or B:TS plats if not missible trophies you would answer "so, you just finished them?". Are they tedious? Sure and that makes them more rare. Star Ocean would not have that legend around it's platinum if not amount of things you need to track.

 

Afaik Elden Ring require multiple playthrough anyway so missible trophies should not be big deal. If you save scam endings you could just save scum/have multiple saves to get missibles.

Edited March 7, 2022 by WiktorM101

[starcrunch061]

8 minutes ago, DeathlessVoid said:

 

1. I'm not leading any charge. Sorry you've mistaken my comments for "leading", but I have no idea where you've come up with this ridiculous narrative. 

2. So glad you could take the time to check out my trophy lists. You've failed to note the more challenging titles that I've platted as well, but nice try.

3. I'm not the one here complaining about challenging trophies, missable trophies, etc. etc. etc., and in fact I am advocating for them and their relevance. Again, nice try but clearly completely missing the mark on your part.

4. If you read Sicho's novellas, you'll see he clearly just wants everything to be specifically catered to him. From the way games are designed to the way trophies are added. That's egocentricity at its finest.

 

If I want to plat Zippy, fine. If I want to plat Elden Ring, fine. If I want to plat Metal Slug Anthology, fine. If you do not, fine. But do not try to demand that everything is made for you, as Sicho is doing here. This is my point.

 

I've missed nothing.

 

Play whatever the hell you want, but don't accuse someone who bemoans missable trophies of liking only autopops, or story trophies, blah blah blah.

 

We all like the trophies that we like. Sicho has been very clear about his tastes (and distastes), but people like you are being deliberately obtuse (at least, I hope it's deliberate). I too dislike missable trophies and online trophies, and I'm not a huge fan of multiple playthroughs. Adding to these, I dislike RNG-dependent trophies, as well as trophies requiring me to play on certain days, or at certain times, etc. etc. That doesn't mean that I don't do them, but be damn sure that I complain about them.

 

Are you going to accuse me of sidestepping challenge as well? I'm certainly no A-lister, but I would put my love of challenge up against most people.

Edited March 7, 2022 by starcrunch061

[DeathlessVoid]

1 minute ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

I've missed nothing.

 

Play whatever the hell you want, but don't accuse someone who bemoans missable trophies of liking only autopops, or story trophies, blah blah blah.

 

We all like the trophies that we like. Sicho has been very clear about his tastes (and distastes), but people like you are being deliberately obtuse (at least, I hope it's deliberate). I too dislike missable trophies and online trophies, and I'm not a huge fan of multiple playthroughs. Adding to these, I dislike RNG-dependent trophies, as well as trophies requiring me to play on certain days, or at certain times, etc. etc. That doesn't mean that I don't do them, but be damn sure that I complain about them.

 

Are you going to accuse me of sidestepping challenge as well? I'm certainly no A-lister, but I would put my love of challenge up with most people.

 

You have missed something. The fact I asked a question. Ironic that you're accusing me of accusing someone else, when I clearly asked something. He listed multiple things he doesn't like. I asked him what he does like, which there's not really a whole lot left when you take out what he doesn't like.

 

You are right, we all have things that we like and dislike. But advocating for the things we dislike to be removed because they're personal dislikes is just absurd. Like this entire conversation, and like you claiming I'm some ringleader here when I've only made a handful of comments. Now I'm going to accuse you of trying to make an example out of me.

 

Again, I'm stepping away from this conversation because I'm done with it. Try to bring me back in if you want, but this is my final reply here.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, ArcadeJedi said:

What is going on here? This is a forum where people boost, save scum, glitch and cheat their way to platinum’s at nearly every given opportunity to save time and grind. 

 

The amount of hypocrisy here is ridiculous, just because OP doesn’t want multiple play throughs of a massive open world or the added stress of missing something simple he’s getting shit on? 

Pretty much this. 

I'm coming to the conclusion that discussing in forums is the most useless thing in the world, most always want to be right all the time and any opportunity to step on someone, because they are always taking everything personally as an attack. there are lots of fun moments and good conversations that can be extracted, indeed, but hardly any discussions like this result in anything good. 

you can read tons of walls of texts here and little consistency between them, because the discussion never goes anywhere, everyone thinking their opinion is the best and not even listening properly to those who disagree, multiple people keep posting without reading previous posts or considering opinions, I often feel that someone who answered me didn't even read what I said (or if they did, they didn't understand).

lurk should be a more fun option than getting involved with people who don't even want to hear what you have to say but just throw stones.

[starcrunch061]

9 minutes ago, DeathlessVoid said:

You have missed something. The fact I asked a question. Ironic that you're accusing me of accusing someone else, when I clearly asked something. He listed multiple things he doesn't like. I asked him what he does like, which there's not really a whole lot left when you take out what he doesn't like.

 

Again, you're being deliberately obtuse. There are plenty of things, even excluding the trophies I don't like, which would still provide challenge. Hell, I've asked for a level 1 trophy in Souls games for years (a challenge of far more interest to me than the "challenge" of collecting all sorceries, or the "challenge" of making sure that you summon an NPC to enough boss battles), but nope - not there. It wouldn't require online. It wouldn't require multiple playthroughs. It wouldn't require RNG. It would be easy to develop. But nope - we instead get the "challenge" of making sure that we collect a weapon that we likely will never use (but which must be collected in a certain time frame).

 

9 minutes ago, DeathlessVoid said:

You are right, we all have things that we like and dislike. But advocating for the things we dislike to be removed because they're personal dislikes is just absurd. 

 

I am advocating right now that trophies involving nothing but RNG (such as finding Axel in an item room in Disgaea, or finding a black market in Enter the Gungeon) should be removed, in their entirety, as they add little to the game on either a "challenge" or "story" level. They're mostly in place to fill out a list. Absurd? Perhaps, but they suck, and should be banished to the land of wind and ghosts.

 

9 minutes ago, DeathlessVoid said:

Like this entire conversation, and like you claiming I'm some ringleader here when I've only made a handful of comments. Now I'm going to accuse you of trying to make an example out of me.

 

I'm using your post because it was the silliest of the ones I've read. I'm glad you have no ambitions of ringleading, however, so I apologize for that.

 

9 minutes ago, DeathlessVoid said:

Again, I'm stepping away from this conversation because I'm done with it. Try to bring me back in if you want, but this is my final reply here.

 

While I know that I have also stated my intentions to leave a thread, it's kind of a weird thing to do when I think about it, and doing it multiple times is particularly strange. But no hard feelings?

Edited March 7, 2022 by starcrunch061

[MonaSaxPayne]

How does “I don’t like missable trophies” = “please make all games easy platinum autopops”?

 

some ppl in here are really showcasing lack of basic comprehension skills 

?

 

 

 

[Timo425]

20 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

How does “I don’t like missable trophies” = “please make all games easy platinum autopops”?

 

some ppl in here are really showcasing lack of basic comprehension skills 

 

 

 

But, if they avoid replaying like wildfire, don't want to use a guide and want to have a plat playing completely blind on first playthrough... how else to understand it?

From the viewpoint that having non-missable collectibles or dialogues that stay there post end-game is not always an option and just limits trophy design.

Now on top of that add that souls games are designed to be replayed and at least in ER you can get the missables relatively quick in ng+... how else could someone understand the guy?

EDIT: And he said he wants it to be same pretty much for all the games he plays.

Or is this about OP? nvm then..

Edited March 7, 2022 by Timo425

[Ceridane]

Honestly is very hard to miss trophy related stuff in this game. There is only a couple of things to take in mind.

 

• Bolt of Gransax: This is pretty much the only missable weapon that is worth checking out before you are in the last section of the game. The other weapon Devourer´s Scepter is also possible to miss but you can get it in about 5 minutes after you start NG+
• Ranni and Blaidd sidequests for both "Age of the stars" ending and optional boss Lichdragon Fortissax
• Backing up your save file after you defeat the last boss for the 3 endings.

[thefourfoldroot]

On 04/03/2022 at 11:17 AM, Leo-Luster-Pow said:

Yea I put in about 90 hours since it came out and got the platinum early yesterday morning, I got most of the trophies naturally by just exploring, I don't even see how you can screw up unless you fly through the game or kill loads of NPCs.

There are no luck-based missable trophies, literally only way you can mess up is by flying through the game and not exploring or killing certain Npcs

Ok, I was under the impression you could miss a trophy by not picking a certain “correct” conversational response, as chosen by the devs. If so I would consider that a luck based trophy (are you lucky enough to have a natural response that aligns to a particular “right” response). But maybe I misunderstood the above.

[mega-tallica]

13 minutes ago, kevao97 said:

I would very much like to agree 100% with what you said, but that cannot be the case. although OP could in fact have articulated his speech better, some people did distort the content of his speech with ironies and deviations from the original speech. this is literally a way for them to deal with an opinion they don't agree with, an attempt to expose the OP to ridicule. you can easily see what I'm talking about when you read the first few pages of this thread and see that the vast majority of counter arguments are exaggerating and increasing the OP's talk, rather than responding to his original complaint which was about collectibles and minimal tasks that can result in a "lost" trophy wise playthough. OP may not have been the wisest in his words, but I'm sure these people missed his point because it's best to do this when you're feeling attacked and emotional. so it's impossible to totally agree with what you said, because people are not being honest here, i can absolutely disagree with any of the OP's original speech and still not distort his speech the way it is recorded here.

 

Nobody was really distorting his speech though. The OP was complaining about missable trophies which therefore implies that he's upset because the 100% will require more effort and in other words, you can say a little more difficult than what he expects which is what people were getting at in the earlier posts in this thread. 

 

Then he got all defensive like nobody is understanding what he's saying and everybody is misconstruing him which is very much false from my perspective. You're misconstruing distorting of words with people having differing opinions and presenting their opinions from a different angle. It's not like these counter-arguments are out of left field and have no relation whatsoever to the OP's argument. They are very much related and get right to the core of what he's really complaining about which is not necessarily just missable trophies, it's the fact the game doesn't have a trophy list that caters to his expectations. He's annoyed because he'll now have to reference a guide to get the missable trophies, probably will have to do multiple playthroughs and that goes against the trophy hunter mentality of getting platinums as quickly and easily as possible, this game doesn't have that so hence the rant post. How do you expect people to respond to that opinion without bringing up peripheral arguments? Because there's nothing to argue if you approach that head-on and what he's saying on the surface. One of those 'see the forest through the trees' kind of things. There's nothing to counter on the surface so you go right to the core instead. 

 

And hence why he got ridiculed because it's a poor hot take that's worded even more poorly. The responses would've been much more civil if his opinion was worded in a better manner and that's what all this really boils down to. 

[Timo425]

22 minutes ago, Sicho said:

You are saying that not having missables is "limiting trophy design". I disagree massively! Missables is actually "lazy" trophy design and working around missables and creating interesting and challenging trophies, is actually, creatively speaking a challenge. 

For a game that plays well as a single playthrough, i'd agree. But in my opinion souls games are inherently multi playthrough games, so your point is kind of moot. You have made it quite clear that you want games to be a single playthrough "one-and-done" deals, no matter what kind of game it is, and i just find the whole concept very limiting. And even if it was fine for souls games to be single playthrough (which it kind of is already if you want to cheese it), then i still disagree that making all trophies non-missables isn't limiting to trophy design. You just don't want to replay for a single second, that's all there is to it and its your personal taste. Just accept it and don't try to act like it would benefit majority.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Timo425

[DrBloodmoney]

34 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

I just don't want MISSABLES! Because they are FUCKING STUPID AND ANNOYING

Not half as stupid and annoying as this thread has become, and you seem perfectly willing to engage with it

 

Dude, you made your point.

Everyone read it.

No one agreed.

Time to move on, no?