Ending Discussion (Huge Spoilers)

[Aranea Highwind]

Something we overlooked about Mantis.

 

[MrManBuz]

The twist didn't bother me too much, after the avatar creation at the start I knew there would be a body double switch. Couple that with the folded over photo and Eli's DNA tests, there was no shock twist factor there, I was expecting it.

In some ways Kojima did another MGS2, he done exactly what the fans weren't hoping for. (although I'm not actually sure whether it was deliberate this time)

I don't really buy Hasooon's point that the real BB just woke up suddenly manipulative and evil. The body switch wasn't his plan, and if when you listen to the tapes ocelot has to convince him to go along with it in a sense. The old Big Boss might have stood up and refused to go along, I can see that point, but saying he simply woke up a different more sinister man is a shitty way to explain a very important part of the sagas plots.

The game has some good moments that could have been really powerful if they were given better build up. Mission 43 was really well done on it's own, but without a built up it lost a lot of the impact.

Skullface was set up so well in GZ, he had the potential to be the best villain in the series only for him to become a Saturday cartoon villain.

I don't even want to think about all the cut content, it's a bloody travesty. MGSV is certainly one of the biggest disappointments in my entire gaming life.

Edit. I've not noticed many people having much grievances about the gameplay. Is it just me or is the open world completely empty with fuck all to do outside of outposts? It's just long narrow hallways connecting the outposts together. Two giant cliffs either side of you with a road in the middle. Afghanistan is especially guilty of it. I think if the scrapped the open world idea and made multiple Camp Omega size maps the game would have been a lot better off (speaking of which, what happened to us being able to go back there? Guess that and the footage of a prisoner getting executed are just more examples of cut content) The actual stealth mechanics for the most part are exceptional.

Edited September 15, 2015 by MrManBuz

[Confon]

The twist didn't bother me too much, after the avatar creation at the start I knew there would be a body double switch. Couple that with the folded over photo and Eli's DNA tests, there was no shock twist factor there, I was expecting it.

In some ways Kojima did another MGS2, he done exactly what the fans weren't hoping for. (although I'm not actually sure whether it was deliberate this time)

I don't really buy Hasooon's point that the real BB just woke up suddenly manipulative and evil. The body switch wasn't his plan, and if when you listen to the tapes ocelot has to convince him to go along with it in a sense. The old Big Boss might have stood up and refused to go along, I can see that point, but saying he simply woke up a different more sinister man is a shitty way to explain a very important part of the sagas plots.

The game has some good moments that could have been really powerful if they were given better build up. Mission 43 was really well done on it's own, but without a built up it lost a lot of the impact.

Skullface was set up so well in GZ, he had the potential to be the best villain in the series only for him to become a Saturday cartoon villain.

I don't even want to think about all the cut content, it's a bloody travesty. MGSV is certainly one of the biggest disappointments in my entire gaming life.

I wouldn't call it a MASSIVE disappointment, game was awesome, I wish the ending didn't happened. But can you imagine Chapter 3 concluding the story by you playing as the real Big Boss?, I would have died

[MrManBuz]

I wouldn't call it a MASSIVE disappointment, game was awesome, I wish the ending didn't happened. But can you imagine Chapter 3 concluding the story by you playing as the real Big Boss?, I would have died

I can see how people would view it as a great game (although it's still not a straight 10/10 like most reviews are making it out to be, it simply isn't.) but I simply can't get over the fact it's such a disappointing MGS game. There's a distinction there that I can't look past. It's more like a third person Far Cry game than a MGS game to me.

I really liked the ending the more I think about it, it's filled with so much symbolism it's a lot to digest, but such an ending is totally undeserved and was clearly not meant to come so soon after Shining lights. The fact the game isn't finished is unforgivable for me.

Edited September 15, 2015 by MrManBuz

[PSNQuinnMcLeod]

@Paige: Holy cow, I have to admit, that is an awesome little detail!

@MrManBuz: I agree with you about the story, the game just is plain and simple INCOMPLETE. A third chapter where you'd play the real Big Boss would have totally saved the game for me. Seeing how he build Zansibar Land, met Solid Snake etc. It would have been awesome. About the Open World though, it is true that it is pretty much outposts connected by roads but you can say that about many open world games. I think it works in favor of the stealth gameplay, to be able to approach something from many different sides, it works perfectly. However, this game really really really needed some interior infiltration for the change up.

[HaSoOoN-MHD]

The ending is absolutely deliberate like MGS2. 

 

Raiden in MGS2 breaks away from the player's control and embraces his own character and identity, symbolized with throwing the dog tags away, but here its alot more open to debate. Some people see it as Venom accepting his role while others [like me personally] see the mirror smash as denial of his role which leadsto Metal Gear 1.

 

By the end of this game Big Boss isn't quite the MG2 crazed warlord, but we see him take the steps towards it. We see him slink down to such a morally bankrupt level that we haven't seen before. The rest we know about, what this game needed to show was show us where and how it happened.

Also do keep in mind Big Boss kept fucking with Venom even after the events of TPP, he was originally just meant to be used till Snake was back in shape but Big Boss kept manipulating him.

 

I don't want a Big Boss chapter because if it happens, it'll probably be MGS4 all over again. Kojima will shove in Gray Fox, Naomi, Sniper Wolf, etc and riddle it with fan service, add in obligatory ''waah the boss wwah'' even though he got over her 3 times by now, and well  and that'll ruin part of what I love about the ending, how it left things open to interpretation while simultaneously closing the gap. Part of the ending's meta message is Kojima passing down the torch to the player/dev team, his part is done in this story, all that's left is for us and for whoever takes control of the franchise next to fill in whatever details he left open.

Episode 43 only works because of its context. The context of building up Mother Base by your own hands, its the kind of thing only a video game would be able to do.

 

The open world works for this type of gameplay. Its not the best open world out there but this ain't GTA, you can mess around, explore, and most importantly it allows the kind of freedom and organic gameplay that's not possible with cut off bases and locations. Figuring out your own route to your target that could effect how you tackle a situation doesn't work outside of an open world, and there are plenty of side ops to tackle in each map.

 

If I was to add anything, i'd add freaking Mujahadden rather than pussy foot around the subject and have battles between soviets and them. 

[PSNQuinnMcLeod]

Kinda offtopic but: Can I see somewhere ingame how many hours I have played the game? I hear people talking a lot about how many hours they have played so far and I don't seem to see an option that shows me that?

[MrManBuz]

Kinda offtopic but: Can I see somewhere ingame how many hours I have played the game? I hear people talking a lot about how many hours they have played so far and I don't seem to see an option that shows me that?

Pause the game and go to 'records'.

[PSNQuinnMcLeod]

Pause the game and go to 'records'.

 

Cool, thanks!

[Yukizm69]

I've just recently finished the main story and I must say that the ending did leave a bitter taste in my mouth, but not really shocking as it was hinted numerous times throughout the game. The thing that disappointed me the most is, almost every video-game blogs out there including Kojima himself stated many times that this game will show us the Big Boss we know and hated (?) before MGS3. Like many have said, this game left me with even more questions then answers, as the only thing 'villainy' we saw from Big Boss is him becoming a coward, whilst abandoning his former comrades in the process and for that matter is when I realized how much of a point Miller had being so God damned angry all the time.

 

Apart from the ending, I can't complain about the rest. The gameplay is as good and smooth as ever, the soundtrack is amazing especially Sins of the Father and I was happy with most things that we did get answers for. Ex. I feel quite content with Huey's arc and how his future son became obsessed with electronics and finding out who his mother was, is a bonus for that matter. How the Cobra's obtained there 'powers' through parasites was also a neat explanation and Volgin's return (although not necessary) was an ok as well.

[Confon]

I've just recently finished the main story and I must say that the ending did leave a bitter taste in my mouth, but not really shocking as it was hinted numerous times throughout the game. The thing that disappointed me the most is, almost every video-game blogs out there including Kojima himself stated many times that this game will show us the Big Boss we know and hated (?) before MGS3. Like many have said, this game left me with even more questions then answers, as the only thing 'villainy' we saw from Big Boss is him becoming a coward, whilst abandoning his former comrades in the process and for that matter is when I realized how much of a point Miller had being so God damned angry all the time.

 

Apart from the ending, I can't complain about the rest. The gameplay is as good and smooth as ever, the soundtrack is amazing especially Sins of the Father and I was happy with most things that we did get answers for. Ex. I feel quite content with Huey's arc and how his future son became obsessed with electronics and finding out who his mother was, is a bonus for that matter. How the Cobra's obtained there 'powers' through parasites was also a neat explanation and Volgin's return (although not necessary) was an ok as well.

That's what I wanted, a Big Boss game, the Big Boss we all know. Being my second favorite character of all time, it would have been so epic to see his downfall. From a ideologist to a dictator, from a hero to a monster. That's how the game was meant to be, an probably that was in Chapter 3.

[HaSoOoN-MHD]

Lol first it was mission 51 now its the mystical chapter 3 that would have solved everything despite the fact that we know absolutely nothing about it other than that The Boss shows up.

 

We saw Big Boss god bad, just from a different perspective.

[PSNQuinnMcLeod]

Lol first it was mission 51 now its the mystical chapter 3 that would have solved everything despite the fact that we know absolutely nothing about it other than that The Boss shows up.

 

We saw Big Boss god bad, just from a different perspective.

 

Come on now. Big Boss being good one moment and bad the next doesn't show us anything and does not give us answers.

[Yukizm69]

Lol first it was mission 51 now its the mystical chapter 3 that would have solved everything despite the fact that we know absolutely nothing about it other than that The Boss shows up.

 

We saw Big Boss god bad, just from a different perspective.

If this is the same perspective I'm thinking of which is basically a 5 minute small talk in a cutscene of a repeated first mission, then this game was falsely advertised in terms of story as we were promised a full game circled around Big Boss's change of mind. 

 

But I guess this isn't the worst video-game ending out their, but highly disappointing if V is indeed the last MGS.

[MrManBuz]

Lol first it was mission 51 now its the mystical chapter 3 that would have solved everything despite the fact that we know absolutely nothing about it other than that The Boss shows up.

We saw Big Boss god bad, just from a different perspective.

Did we though? What did we actually learn as to *WHY* Big Boss goes down the path he does? We don't. All we get is what we already knew, Big Boss turns, we don't see why, we don't see how. (if the body switch was his idea I'd get it but it isn't, and even if it was it still doesn't explain why he suddenly becomes like that)

Unless you think him waking up a different person is a satisfactory explanation. If it is then there was no need for TPP in the first place. The notion that he one day says "Fuck it, I'm going to be evil and take over the world today" is just as adept an explanation as the one we got.

Edited September 15, 2015 by MrManBuz

[Grunking1212]

Best gameplay in a metal gear game, but worst story. What if Kojima is just fucking with us, and he is trolling us with Konami for Metal Gear Solid 6. He did troll us for the ending.

[HaSoOoN-MHD]

Come on now. Big Boss being good one moment and bad the next doesn't show us anything and does not give us answers.

What answers have we yet to get? we know that the trauma and realization GZ brought pushed him towards the darker path. We see where that darker path starts, and we know the rest. 

What in your opinion was ignored and we didn't get answers to?

 

If this is the same perspective I'm thinking of which is basically a 5 minute small talk in a cutscene of a repeated first mission, then this game was falsely advertised in terms of story as we were promised a full game circled around Big Boss's change of mind. 

 

But I guess this isn't the worst video-game ending out their, but highly disappointing if V is indeed the last MGS.

How is it not a change of mind? don't you think what he did to Venom is morally bankrupt? 

 

Did we though? What did we actually learn as to *WHY* Big Boss goes down the path he does? We don't. All we get is what we already knew, Big Boss turns, we don't see why, we don't see how. (if the body switch was his idea I'd get it but it isn't, and even if it was it still doesn't explain why he suddenly becomes like that)

Unless you think him waking up a different person is a satisfactory explanation. If it is then there was no need for TPP in the first place. The notion that he one day says "Fuck it, I'm going to be evil and take over the world today" is just as adept an explanation as the one we got.

You may think of them as separate titles but GZ is the why. The how is Venom.

Not his initial idea [although its his and Ocelot's work IIRC] but old Big Boss would never agree to that, and he kept using Venom even after his initial purpose.

[Yukizm69]

Sure it is, but do you think what he did to Venom is a good enough explanation of what made him the 'villain' Big Boss we saw in MG and MG2? Apart from 'creating' Venom, we haven't learned anything we didn't know of Big Boss during that time. The game pushes you back to square one in terms of Big Boss's story and seeing as this game was suppose to be focused on Big Boss's 'turn', I can not help but feel disappointing with the overall main story.

[Gladiator995]

Piss poor ending. Mission 51 is on Youtube and that hardly resolves anything too.

[PSNQuinnMcLeod]

Piss poor ending. Mission 51 is on Youtube and that hardly resolves anything too.

 

It would not have saved the ending from being underwhelming but it would have at least resolved some plotholes and would have given meaning to Liquids and Psycho Mantis' relationship. It should have been in the game. But so should have been a third chapter about the real Big Boss. Too bad.

Edited September 16, 2015 by PSNQuinnMcLeod

[Saltyie]

Cool fanmade trailer -

I don't hate the ending, I hate the 99% of the game before hand. We put down the infected dogs, say goodbye to quiet and then we're back at the prologue. Such shoddy pacing and filler missions ruined the good parts. Stuff like the awesome 'A shining light, even in death' cutscene was undermined by the fact you're just plopped back into the ACC afterwards like nothing happened.

Metal Gear has never been about good or bad, it's all based on perception (e.g The Boss). Hot Coldman in Peace Walker didn't want to destroy the world, and neither did Big Boss in MG. Solid Snake was a gun guided by people telling him who was bad in the early days. When I say I wanted to see Big Bosses decent, I wanted him to slowly start to use or justify the children as soldiers, and have a changed view on nuclear deterrence.

Instead, we're left with the body double twist that doesn't explain the transition to Metal Gear or even hint at it. We know Venom dies at Outer Heaven, but we don't know his motivations, goals or relationship with Big Boss at the time, the same with Big Boss. Some people say that the Outer Heaven uprising was Venom snapping and the real Big Boss sending Solid Snake to stop him, others say he is following Big Bosses command, gaining the eye of the world while BB creates the real outer heaven in secret. This didn't tie up loose ends, it threw one last curveball at us and laughed as we'll never get the answers from Kojima.

[platypus200]

I've been thinking about the ending for days, and I have a few things to add to the discussion.

 

First, I'm inclined to believe that Big Boss' downfall happens after the ending of Peace Walker, when he refuses the Boss and her ideals, and declares the world as his enemy. So, MGSV wasn't really suppoded to show what already happened.

 

Second, the ending of the game felt incomplete. After the revenge against Skullface is complete, the game finishes the story of some characters, but never finish Venom Snake's story. We never really see what he plans to do after he defeated Skullface. It just gives a timeskip to the moments before the first Metal Gear, when he learns the truth. His motivation about building Outer Heaven is never explicit.

 

And for those who wants to play as the Big Boss, you already did. Venom Snake is as much Big Boss as the original. He's nothing like Raiden was in MGS2.

[MrManBuz]

You may think of them as separate titles but GZ is the why. The how is Venom.

Not his initial idea [although its his and Ocelot's work IIRC] but old Big Boss would never agree to that, and he kept using Venom even after his initial purpose.

I don't consider them separate. (Although GZ is a far better game but nevertheless)

So you're happy with the explanation that Big Boss had an accident and awakes from his coma an evil sinister man. If you're fine with that explanation, good for you.

To me it's a piss poor cop out of possibly the most important part of the Metal Gear saga.

Again we didn't get anything new on why he became the way he did as we were told we would. We were told we'd see his slow descent into madness through revenge. According to you he woke up as the evil Big Boss we knew, or that the seeds of that were sown. We knew the seeds were sown long ago, we didn't see why they were sown, we still don't. We don't see why Big Boss changes. If the GZ accident is the reason fine, but why? He's had his men killed countless times before, his life almost taken many times before. Why does he suddenly become the man he is?

Edited September 16, 2015 by MrManBuz

[HaSoOoN-MHD]

I don't consider them separate. (Although GZ is a far better game but nevertheless)

So you're happy with the explanation that Big Boss had an accident and awakes from his coma an evil sinister man. If you're fine with that explanation, good for you.

To me it's a piss poor cop out of possibly the most important part of the Metal Gear saga.

Again we didn't get anything new on why he became the way he did as we were told we would. We were told we'd see his slow descent into madness through revenge. According to you he woke up as the evil Big Boss we knew, or that the seeds of that were sown. We knew the seeds were sown long ago, we didn't see why they were sown, we still don't. We don't see why Big Boss changes. If the GZ accident is the reason fine, but why? He's had his men killed countless times before, his life almost taken many times before. Why does he suddenly become the man he is?

TPP is not the end state for Big Boss character.

The way I see it, we have 3 states. The beginning, transition, and end. The beginning is Snake Eater, where we see the foundations for his ideology and way of thinking. The transition is the Cipher trilogy as I like to call it, we see him become more open to the extremism of his MG2 self, GZ shows us what really pushed him over the edge [i'll come back to this later] and in TPP we see him slink down to the morally reprehensible. That's the path that leads to MG2 Big Boss, its what we needed to see. Not MG2 Big Boss but the transition period.

 

What do you mean his men killed countless times before? MSF was the  only time he got his base destroyed [barring the first two games], 90% of his men slaughtered infront of him and just years of work gone to waste. That kind of trauma messes you up, by the end of TPP Big Boss is borderline psychopath [which matches the first two games], and he woke up from a 9 years coma and that changes you. The obscure oil rig set up wouldn't work anymore, he needed a nation to ensure the establishment of a true Outer Heaven.

 

Would a more traditional character study have been better? maybe, I don't know, but what we got worked. Especially when you factor in how the game managed to subjugate the consumer himself to his heinous acts.

[MrManBuz]

TPP is not the end state for Big Boss character.

The way I see it, we have 3 states. The beginning, transition, and end. The beginning is Snake Eater, where we see the foundations for his ideology and way of thinking. The transition is the Cipher trilogy as I like to call it, we see him become more open to the extremism of his MG2 self, GZ shows us what really pushed him over the edge [i'll come back to this later] and in TPP we see him slink down to the morally reprehensible. That's the path that leads to MG2 Big Boss, its what we needed to see. Not MG2 Big Boss but the transition period.

What do you mean his men killed countless times before? MSF was the only time he got his base destroyed [barring the first two games], 90% of his men slaughtered infront of him and just years of work gone to waste. That kind of trauma messes you up, by the end of TPP Big Boss is borderline psychopath [which matches the first two games], and he woke up from a 9 years coma and that changes you. The obscure oil rig set up wouldn't work anymore, he needed a nation to ensure the establishment of a true Outer Heaven.

Would a more traditional character study have been better? maybe, I don't know, but what we got worked. Especially when you factor in how the game managed to subjugate the consumer himself to his heinous acts.

I'm not even that against the idea that what happened in GZ is what pushes him over the edge, the main problem I have with the game is the fact there isn't near enough exposition on it. There's a couple of tapes and that's it.

Although it does mess with the other games somewhat each one has been retconed so much at this point I expect retcons in a new Kojima game. I like the fact with this new revelation it was in actual fact the real Big Boss who sent Solid Snake to kill Venom. I'm not mad at the ending like most.

I don't expect conventional story telling from Kojima so to expect a 'traditional' way of telling it is naive. I do however expect an indepth exploration into it. I'm sure even you cann't deny we didn't get that. Kojima picked a bad time to shelve the story for gameplay.